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Widow's Wail

what is Littlefinger referring to  in  AFFC Alayane I, when speaking about Cersei

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“In the game of thrones, even the humblest pieces can have wills of their own. Sometimes they refuse to make the moves you’ve planned for them. Mark that well, Alayne. It’s a lesson that Cersei Lannister still has yet to learn.” (AFFC Alayane I)

 

what is Littlefinger referring to in  AFFC Alayane I?

Edited by Widow's Wail

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Just now, Beren_One_Hand said:

I’d say he’s talking about himself being a humble piece in Cersei’s plans and that he has a will of his own; making his own moves instead of the ones she planned for him.

Yes sir.  Petyr Baelish is thinking about himself.  How many times have we seen this in other characters doing what they think instead of what somebody planned for them.  

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21 minutes ago, The Pink Letter said:

An idiot she may be but she outplayed Ned, Sansa, and Robert.

Not sure I'd say the 11 year old Sansa ever knowingly participated in"the game"against Cersei. She was more of a pawn, who Cersei used against Ned. then Baelish and the Tyrells used against Cersei to take out her precious Joff.

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31 minutes ago, The Pink Letter said:

An idiot she may be but she outplayed Ned, Sansa, and Robert.

Not really an achievement. In her place I imagine I could also outsmart an 11 year old girl, someone who has never played the game before, and a drunken, depressive oaf. 

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Another of Cersei's "pawns" was her son Joffrey, who she seemed to expect she'd rule through, but who turned out to have a strong will and nasty mind of his own. Also Littlefinger, sure. But Sansa was a "good" pawn. Nearly always did as expected. When she didn't - like disappearing after Joffrey's death - it was due to other players, moving her around on the board.

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36 minutes ago, The Pink Letter said:

An idiot she may be but she outplayed Ned, Sansa, and Robert.

Well, Ned (who is much maligned for having a strong code of ethics) assumed that people would generally adhere to simple rules of decency. He didn't grasp how selfish, power-mad, and depraved the Lannisters and other King's Landing courtiers were. I'm sure Ned would have caught on in time, and when released from service would have been glad to wash the stench of King's Landing off of himself.

Sansa was a child without a clue. Not a fair contest. Robert kept his brain pickled in wine and other distractions, and never was the sharpest sword on the rack.

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The Kettleblacks work for LF, so whatever they know of substance, LF likely knows. In AFFC Cersei IV which is the Cersei chapter which immediately precedes AFFC Alayne I, Cersei tries to get Osney Kettleblack to seduce Marg wherein he would be convicted and sent to the Wall to assassinate Jon because he's a Stark who Cersei especially hates after Joff's murder and because he's working with Stannis.

LF knows that Cersei is going after Marg. That's nothing new. But it's a safe bet that LF knows that Marg isn't going to be seduced or even allow for speculation of seduction by Osney. It doesn't work that LF is reacting to this part of the plan so I think LF is reacting to Cersei's assassination plan of Jon. If Osney doesn't work out, she'll try something else. Something he may not find out about in time.

 

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As LF said: " Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches." That is predictable if you study her methods.

  • Joffrey's decision to execute Ned despite her will is a proof that she couldn't control him.
  • Tommen has started going out of her control after his wedding to Margaery.
  • Littlefinger, a man of low birth, seemingly unable to harm anyone has done enough to undermine Cersei.
  • Kettleblacks crushed under High Sparrow's pressure and soiled Cersei's plot.
  • Jaime refused to return to King's Landing despite Cersei's letter (seduction)
  • Sansa Stark organised her escape under Cersei's nose.

Cersei likes to think herself as Twyin II but it is not true. She has no judgement so she underestimates people. She thinks people will act the way she wants/thinks but that doesn't happen all the time. So her plans backfire.

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LF is a player, not a pawn, even Cersei must see that. I think the pawns have got to be smaller, like the Kettleblacks (and it feels like everybody lost control of the Kettleblacks).

1 hour ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

As LF said: " Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches." That is predictable if you study her methods.

  • Joffrey's decision to execute Ned despite her will is a proof that she couldn't control him.
  • Tommen has started going out of her control after his wedding to Margaery.
  • Littlefinger, a man of low birth, seemingly unable to harm anyone has done enough to undermine Cersei.
  • Kettleblacks crushed under High Sparrow's pressure and soiled Cersei's plot.
  • Jaime refused to return to King's Landing despite Cersei's letter (seduction)
  • Sansa Stark organised her escape under Cersei's nose.

Cersei likes to think herself as Twyin II but it is not true. She has no judgement so she underestimates people. She thinks people will act the way she wants/thinks but that doesn't happen all the time. So her plans backfire. 

It would be ridiculous to deny her achievements though. You don't have to approve, but they're all things she aimed at and got.

  • Jaime becoming Kingsguard
  • King Robert miserable, but still under her influence
  • All her children fathered by Jaime
  • All her children heirs to the Baratheon throne
  • Death of Lady
  • Death of Robert
  • Fall of Lord Stark, the King's Hand
  • Lannisters in power
  • Wildfire
  • Queen Regent

It's a world-changing list.

I don't like the character. I don't like her thinking or her morals, and I can see she's on a downhill slide with both. But. Male characters get a lot more attention on this forum focused on their achievements, and a lot less on their mistakes.

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12 hours ago, Endymion I Targaryen said:

Sansa Stark organised her escape under Cersei's nose.

Sansa organized nothing. The whole escape plot was Littlefinger's; Sansa just went where Baelish's catspaw took her. It would be more accurate to state that "Littlefinger organized Sansa's abduction from King's Landing right under Cersei's nose." Remember, Sansa is just as much a captive now in the Vale of Arryn as she was in the Red Keep.

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On 10/12/2018 at 6:59 PM, The Pink Letter said:

An idiot she may be but she outplayed Ned

I mean, not really.  She only prevailed because Littlefinger and Varys wanted her to; if they hadn't intervened, Jon Arryn and later Ned would have won.

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5 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

I mean, not really.  She only prevailed because Littlefinger and Varys wanted her to; if they hadn't intervened, Jon Arryn and later Ned would have won.

Winning support is the game of thrones. Think Varys' riddle. Think of LF describing how he won Tyrell support for the royal marriage - he says flat out: that is how the game is played.

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14 hours ago, zandru said:

Sansa organized nothing. The whole escape plot was Littlefinger's; Sansa just went where Baelish's catspaw took her. It would be more accurate to state that "Littlefinger organized Sansa's abduction from King's Landing right under Cersei's nose." Remember, Sansa is just as much a captive now in the Vale of Arryn as she was in the Red Keep.

One might say, the regicide was the means to Littlefinger's ultimate end, of framing Sansa for regicide.  He killed a king to capture a girl.  He also takes pains to smugly spell out her predicament, and his part in it, to her on the boat.  So much for her fabled 'agency'...

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On 10/13/2018 at 9:30 AM, Springwatch said:

LF is a player, not a pawn, even Cersei must see that. I think the pawns have got to be smaller, like the Kettleblacks (and it feels like everybody lost control of the Kettleblacks).

It would be ridiculous to deny her achievements though. You don't have to approve, but they're all things she aimed at and got.

  • Jaime becoming Kingsguard
  • King Robert miserable, but still under her influence
  • All her children fathered by Jaime
  • All her children heirs to the Baratheon throne
  • Death of Lady
  • Death of Robert
  • Fall of Lord Stark, the King's Hand
  • Lannisters in power
  • Wildfire
  • Queen Regent

It's a world-changing list.

I don't like the character. I don't like her thinking or her morals, and I can see she's on a downhill slide with both. But. Male characters get a lot more attention on this forum focused on their achievements, and a lot less on their mistakes.

True

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6 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

One might say, the regicide was the means to Littlefinger's ultimate end, of framing Sansa for regicide.  He killed a king to capture a girl.  He also takes pains to smugly spell out her predicament, and his part in it, to her on the boat.  So much for her fabled 'agency'...

I think that GRRM has failed in showing the readers Sansa’s agency. 

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3 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think that GRRM has failed in showing the readers Sansa’s agency. 

I think that's because it hasn't come yet in any broad or significant way as of the end of AFFC though she does have moments both good and bad. She's been in sponge mode this whole time just trying to stay afloat in the tide. She's a Stone which doesn't move until she gets kicked. But the Vale looks like a powder keg about to blow and I think a big kick is coming and she'll have to make choices.

@Widow's Wail

There's been a bit of topic drift (nothing wrong with that for me!), but to come back around, LF has heard something recently which lowered his opinion of Cersei even more, something which may interfere with his plans. Thus, look to the Cersei chapter preceding AFFC Alayne I for what she might have done that LF may have heard and feels warrants a change of plan on his part. As I said before, I think he's reacting to Cersei's plans to assassinate Jon (Sansa may need another placeholder if fArya falls through and let Jon and Stannis take care of the mess up North) because of the amount of time spent on including Osney. I know a lot of people don't like the idea of LF in Jon's arc, but you know LF is accounting for all Starks who he knows to be alive because that affects Sansa.

But I do think it's worth considering that LF may have someone on the council informing him thus he may be reacting to anything in the council meeting. Pycelle, Qyburn, and Harys Swyft (daughter married to Kevan) seem unlikely. Gyles Rosby, Orton Merryweather and Aurane Waters (of the LF-like grey-green eyes and the LF-like wit) are questionable. Aurane's LF-esque character and that he took off with Cersei's ships (maybe LF didn't want Cersei to have many ships?) is in the lead for me.

Edited by Lollygag

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On 10/14/2018 at 5:01 AM, Springwatch said:

Winning support is the game of thrones. Think Varys' riddle. Think of LF describing how he won Tyrell support for the royal marriage - he says flat out: that is how the game is played.

She didn’t win their support.  They both know she’s an idiot who is useful for their own ends, so they manipulate her.  That’s not a testament to her political strategy. She’s not even aware they are using her.

21 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I think that GRRM has failed in showing the readers Sansa’s agency. 

No, not really.  She doesn’t have a lot of big picture agency (other than the decision to seek Cersei’s help in AGOT, the one time in the books to date that she’s really been in a position to actively shape her own course in a big way without outside instigation).  Her agency is mostly in smaller moments so far, but she does have some in the escape plan — she has to choose whether to participate and weigh the risks, etc., of even meeting with Dontos. Compare it with the show, where she’s just dragged out at the last minute.

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