The Sphinx: Quaithe and Alleras / Sarella

[Lady Barbrey]

Are they the same person?  Or two different sphinxes?

A sphinx is primarily known for three properties: 1) a hybrid 2) a riddler and 3) a protector (statues of sphinxes are usually set up for protective purposes).  Other things too but these are the main ones.

Aamon's dream on the ship talks of unlit glass candles, eggs that won't hatch, and the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, whatever that might mean.

Quaithe is the supreme riddler of the series; Dany is always trying to figure out her riddles.  A tie-in here is that Dany thinks she sees Quaithe on board ship, and it is on board ship that Aemon has his fever dream that seems a portent.  Moreover, at least on the surface, she seems to be acting as Dany's unsolicited protector.

Alleras/Sarella is actually called a Sphinx.  She's about 20, has been at the citadel for just a year, has connections to Marwyn, who has connections to Asshai and shadow binding and taught Mirri.  She is involved in some Great Game according to Doran, and her mother has a ship so she can get around a bit more easily perhaps than other characters.  But what's really interesting about her is that in the course of her conversations with Sam, she seems to eerily mirror Aamon's fever dream pronouncements, about unlit candles and unhatched eggs in the same way he said them. (Sorry, unable to pull quotes with my tablet, but you can see for yourself easily enough).

I thought Quaithe an older woman because she is an established member of that council.  But she's so fully masked we can't tell, nor do we know how long she's been on this council, nor do we know whether an original Quaithe could not have been replaced because who could tell behind that mask?

Anyway, thought I'd put that out there for the more acute minds amongst us who have a better memory and grasp of the text than I do.  Here are the things I'm thinking about:

1) Could Alleras be Quaithe? Alleras joins the citadel a year before but this would be after meeting with Dany.  Logistically possible.

2) If not, are Alleras and Quaithe related in some way?

3) If they are the same, what does that tell us about Alleras's Great Game?

4) If they are the same, what was Aemon telling us and Sam?  He seems to be directing our attention not to the riddles Quaithe directly poses for Dany, nor to the riddling function of a Sphinx, but to what is the nature of a Sphinx itself?

5) A little more esoterically:  Were sphinxes once a thing, people with certain abilities known in the past (not just the obvious skinchangers or dragon riders), that are showing up again with magic on the rise?

 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I'm going to quote Sam when he brings up Aemon's words to Alleras when they meet and she asks him if it's a riddle, "I wish I knew." Here I thought I was among the acute minds you mentioned, guess not 

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

nor do we know whether an original Quaithe could not have been replaced because who could tell behind that mask?

Good point, I never thought about that and it could very well be true. I mean Sarella is not who she is claiming to be, so maybe that's the case with Quaithe as well.

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

If they are the same, what was Aemon telling us and Sam?  He seems to be directing our attention not to the riddles Quaithe directly poses for Dany, nor to the riddling function of a Sphinx, but to what is the nature of a Sphinx itself?

Maybe it means that Dany should be more focused on figuring out who Quaithe is instead of figuring out her riddles. The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.  It's more important for Dany to figure out who Quathe(the riddler) is and what her motivation may be and the riddles she's giving Dany aren't really important and may even be misdirection. Perhaps Aemon saw Quaithe's true identity in his fever dream(maybe it was also a "dragon dream") and recognized her.   Alas he died before he could meet Dany and tell her, which makes his death that much more sad when it happens.

As I said before I believe Sarella/Alleras' role will be pretty vital to the Oldtown story line. I believe she's the smartest among her sisters and her objective is much more crucial. Plus she seems to be keeping Doran in the dark which most likely indicates she has a much higher chance of success. How directly is Sarella linked to Quaithe? I think when we get more chapters with her in Oldtown it will become more apparent if that's the case. Her character is still pretty knew to the story after all.

As far as hybrids go, like mentioned in the other thread I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Valyrians were playing god and were trying to create sphinx/dragon-human hybrids. It appears that sphinxes hold some sort of significance to the Valyrians and Targs, so maybe they were one of the many gods of the Valyrians of the Freehold. I know that Targaryen's are burned after they die, but what happens to their ashes? Are they put inside a sphinx statue so they can watch over their progeny?

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'm going to quote Sam when he brings up Aemon's words to Alleras when they meet and she asks him if it's a riddle, "I wish I knew." Here I thought I was among the acute minds you mentioned, guess not 

Good point, I never thought about that and it could very well be true. I mean Sarella is not who she is claiming to be, so maybe that's the case with Quaithe as well.

Maybe it means that Dany should be more focused on figuring out who Quaithe is instead of figuring out her riddles. The sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler.  It's more important for Dany to figure out who Quathe(the riddler) is and what her motivation may be and the riddles she's giving Dany aren't really important and may even be misdirection. Perhaps Aemon saw Quaithe's true identity in his fever dream(maybe it was also a "dragon dream") and recognized her.   Alas he died before he could meet Dany and tell her, which makes his death that much more sad when it happens.

You've hit on the crux of it here I think.  Was Aemon dreaming about a sphinx in addition to unlit candles and unhatched eggs, or was he commenting on how he was getting those dreams and who was sending them?  I think it could very well be the latter - somebody he identifies as Sphinx has the ability to send him dreams on a ship in the ocean, something outside the purview perhaps of a greenseer because she or he's not connected to the weir network or even Westeros.  It kind of screams glass candles being lit and someone is using one. He must have had all kinds of questions. Who is this person?  What is his/her agenda?  Why send to him, Aemon?  Because he's a Targaryen?  A maester? Was she trying to find Dany and found another Targ instead? How is she doing it?

Poor Aemon.  I feel sorrier for him than us because he's searched for knowledge and answers all his life, and in his dying moments he's presented with a huge puzzle he'll never get a chance to try to solve.  At least we have hope for some answers.

As I said before I believe Sarella/Alleras' role will be pretty vital to the Oldtown story line. I believe she's the smartest among her sisters and her objective is much more crucial. Plus she seems to be keeping Doran in the dark which most likely indicates she has a much higher chance of success. How directly is Sarella linked to Quaithe? I think when we get more chapters with her in Oldtown it will become more apparent if that's the case. Her character is still pretty knew to the story after all.

You and I agree on her role (and hopefully a turnaround in the Dornish losing streak!).  I don't see much more than parallel symbolism and possible ability to link Quaithe and Sarella directly, access to glass candles, but there could be a very concrete link in Marwyn. However, if so, Marwyn might not know about it.  It was not he who used the glass candle burning in his study to contact Aemon. It seems to have been Alleras.

Though Marwyn seems to have the same crucial purpose as Quaithe: to provide Dany with his unsolicited protection.

As far as hybrids go, like mentioned in the other thread I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Valyrians were playing god and were trying to create sphinx/dragon-human hybrids. It appears that sphinxes hold some sort of significance to the Valyrians and Targs, so maybe they were one of the many gods of the Valyrians of the Freehold. I know that Targaryen's are burned after they die, but what happens to their ashes? Are they put inside a sphinx statue so they can watch over their progeny?

So suggestive of different things.  But, you know, we really only know about the dragon-riders of Valyria.  I've said before that dragon-riders seem to partake of a different, inherited fire magic than what happens with fire and blood sorcery.  

I guess I'm wondering if Valyrians had a separate strain of fire magic practitioners, separate from dragon riders, that they called Sphinxes, whose main role was protection of Valyria and Valyrians.  Why a Dornish noblewoman like Alleras might be part of that is ground for guesswork only.

But I'm way out on a limb here, I will withdraw before I tumble, and hopefully haven't dissuaded you or others from discussing the more plausible Quaithe Alleras theory.

 

[hiemal]

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Are they the same person?  Or two different sphinxes?

A sphinx is primarily known for three properties: 1) a hybrid 2) a riddler and 3) a protector (statues of sphinxes are usually set up for protective purposes).  Other things too but these are the main ones.

Aamon's dream on the ship talks of unlit glass candles, eggs that won't hatch, and the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, whatever that might mean.

Quaithe is the supreme riddler of the series; Dany is always trying to figure out her riddles.  A tie-in here is that Dany thinks she sees Quaithe on board ship, and it is on board ship that Aemon has his fever dream that seems a portent.  Moreover, at least on the surface, she seems to be acting as Dany's unsolicited protector.

Alleras/Sarella is actually called a Sphinx.  She's about 20, has been at the citadel for just a year, has connections to Marwyn, who has connections to Asshai and shadow binding and taught Mirri.  She is involved in some Great Game according to Doran, and her mother has a ship so she can get around a bit more easily perhaps than other characters.  But what's really interesting about her is that in the course of her conversations with Sam, she seems to eerily mirror Aamon's fever dream pronouncements, about unlit candles and unhatched eggs in the same way he said them. (Sorry, unable to pull quotes with my tablet, but you can see for yourself easily enough).

I thought Quaithe an older woman because she is an established member of that council.  But she's so fully masked we can't tell, nor do we know how long she's been on this council, nor do we know whether an original Quaithe could not have been replaced because who could tell behind that mask?

Anyway, thought I'd put that out there for the more acute minds amongst us who have a better memory and grasp of the text than I do.  Here are the things I'm thinking about:

1) Could Alleras be Quaithe? Alleras joins the citadel a year before but this would be after meeting with Dany.  Logistically possible.

 

You have a habit of pointing me in directions, I hadn't looked previously. Kudos. I had never considered it before and proximity to a candle and to Sam are powerful arguments. I'll be pondering.

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

2) If not, are Alleras and Quaithe related in some way?

 

Almost certainly. What is Quaithe protecting, I wonder?

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

3) If they are the same, what does that tell us about Alleras's Great Game?
 

If they are I would move her from "one of my favorie minor characters" to "suspicious-as-hell prodigy and possibly false counselllor" alongside Missandei,

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

4) If they are the same, what was Aemon telling us and Sam?  He seems to be directing our attention not to the riddles Quaithe directly poses for Dany, nor to the riddling function of a Sphinx, but to what is the nature of a Sphinx itself?

Is Alleras going to be a protector to Sam or is Sam going to grease himself up and slide into a sphinx suit and act as the male face of pair of sphinxes guarging the entrance to the Citadel- or does Alleras have both of those covered?

My main non-Alleras sphinx candidates are Quaithe/Shiera, Tyrion, Euron, and Arya. The first three all share heterochromia, which may be a calling card of this archetype? Arya's mishmash mostly comes from her evolution of identites. I think hybridization is the nature of the sphinx, the fusion of elements; earth to sky, fire to ice.

15 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

5) A little more esoterically:  Were sphinxes once a thing, people with certain abilities known in the past (not just the obvious skinchangers or dragon riders), that are showing up again with magic on the rise?

 

I think dragonriders and skinchangers are both types of sphinxes- which is why we are presented with the traditional and Valyrian variety.

[Megorova]

16 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, whatever that might mean.

It means, that Quaithe herself is the riddle.

She's one of the most important riddles/secrets in ASOIAF. She is Shiera Seastar and the Three-eyed Crow.

She's the one who has binded Bloodraven to the Weirwood, and sacrificed him to Old Gods. Mirri Maz Duur and maester Marwyn are her ex-disciples. Maybe Euron Greyjoy is also one of her creations (the clue is his nickmane - Euron the Crow's Eye. He may be Quaithe's third eye).

[Unacosamedarisa]

Really not seeing the connection, or how Sarella is Quaithe. Like you say, it's logistically possible, but I don't see it being probable or likely, and am really struggling to see what the evidence for this theory actually is. Quaithe seems to be established in Qarth, as someone important or notable... hence being part of the trio sent to greet Dany. Whereas, all we've been told about Sarella is that she's playing a "game" (not a "great game")... If she'd been apprenticed to Marwyn, learning all of this magic nonsense, travelling halfway round the world, several years in advance, to become established in Qarth as some 15 year old or whatnot, then I think Doran would have a little more to say about what she's up to than just "leave her to her game". GRRM would give us some textual hint to suggest that Alleras had, say, visited Qarth, or was familiar with Dany and her Dragons. 

There's nothing to connect the appearances of the two characters... Quaithe is masked, so we only have her eyes described, as wet and shiny, but that doesn't match with Alleras, who has large black eyes. If Quaithe's eyes were black, I think that'd be mentioned, to give us some sort of physical similarity between the two characters. 

Alleras/Sarella already has a secret identity, I don't see there being a third introduced. I always took Aemon's line about the sphinx being the riddle, not the riddler, as showing us that Targ dreams have to be taken seriously. The reader reads that line, looks at the character called the Sphinx, realises there's more to them, connects Alleras = Sarella if they haven't already. 

[Moiraine Sedai]

There is no evidence connecting Sarella and Qaithe.  We can't ignore the impossibility of being in two places at almost the same.  Glass candle projection doesn't explain how Qaithe rode with Xaro and Pyatt to meet Daenerys before her arrival in Qarth.  Other members of the Khaleesi's party saw Qaithe.  In broad daylight.

Qaithe wears a mask because that is normal for members of her order.  Why are the messages cryptic is because they are not given in 1080p high definition.  Qaithe get them by looking into the flames.  They are like foggy dreams.  A fortune teller gives herself a lot of room by being vague.  The client will be hard pressed to call out their mistakes that way.

Qaithe, Pyatt, and Xaro are like the three wise men coming to meet the baby Jesus.  To wonder and marvel at the dragons.  Yet they each have their own agenda.  They are powerful people who seek to win the help of the more powerful Daenerys to achieve their goals.  Pyatt wants to keep his undying friends alive.  Xaro is greed.  Qaithe wants to bring the savior to Asshai.

[Lady Barbrey]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

You have a habit of pointing me in directions, I hadn't looked previously. Kudos. I had never considered it before and proximity to a candle and to Sam are powerful arguments. I'll be pondering.

Thanks hiemal, same back at you.  I don't consider this a theory really, just more a question whether they could be the same or related, if anyone had caught anything.  I've been off the forum for a number of years now. 

Almost certainly. What is Quaithe protecting, I wonder?

Big question.  Seems to be Dany.  Steering her towards Asshai for the 'truth' and reminding her who she is, fire and blood, which is a bit ominous.  I'm rather in the school of Valyrians were once a necessary evil to wipe out the Others, and are so again, but Dany left to herself afterwards and the planet will get another Valyria which did as much or more damage, certainly over thousands of years, than the Others did in the one generation Long Night.

If they are I would move her from "one of my favorie minor characters" to "suspicious-as-hell prodigy and possibly false counselllor" alongside Missandei,

Another person whose goal we don't know.  I want to like her though.  She's certainly the most interesting of the Dornish to me right now.  And I think as a protector sphinx, she might be going to protect Old town and the Citadel.

Is Alleras going to be a protector to Sam or is Sam going to grease himself up and slide into a sphinx suit and act as the male face of pair of sphinxes guarging the entrance to the Citadel- or does Alleras have both of those covered?

Oh you caught that too!  Yeah I think she covers both.

My main non-Alleras sphinx candidates are Quaithe/Shiera, Tyrion, Euron, and Arya. The first three all share heterochromia, which may be a calling card of this archetype? Arya's mishmash mostly comes from her evolution of identites. I think hybridization is the nature of the sphinx, the fusion of elements; earth to sky, fire to ice.

Yes.  But that's an old mystery - I'm wondering if something new has come into the mix.  The Quaithe/Shiera would be fun for the storyline, though if Quaithe has mismatched eyes I think we'd have been told as It's the only part of her that can be seen. So for now she's out for me.

The heterochromia does seem significant, but what?

I think dragonriders and skinchangers are both types of sphinxes- which is why we are presented with the traditional and Valyrian variety.

Yes the most obvious I think too.

 

[Lady Barbrey]

2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Really not seeing the connection, or how Sarella is Quaithe. Like you say, it's logistically possible, but I don't see it being probable or likely, and am really struggling to see what the evidence for this theory actually is. Quaithe seems to be established in Qarth, as someone important or notable... hence being part of the trio sent to greet Dany. Whereas, all we've been told about Sarella is that she's playing a "game" (not a "great game")... If she'd been apprenticed to Marwyn, learning all of this magic nonsense, travelling halfway round the world, several years in advance, to become established in Qarth as some 15 year old or whatnot, then I think Doran would have a little more to say about what she's up to than just "leave her to her game". GRRM would give us some textual hint to suggest that Alleras had, say, visited Qarth, or was familiar with Dany and her Dragons. 

There's nothing to connect the appearances of the two characters... Quaithe is masked, so we only have her eyes described, as wet and shiny, but that doesn't match with Alleras, who has large black eyes. If Quaithe's eyes were black, I think that'd be mentioned, to give us some sort of physical similarity between the two characters. 

Alleras/Sarella already has a secret identity, I don't see there being a third introduced. I always took Aemon's line about the sphinx being the riddle, not the riddler, as showing us that Targ dreams have to be taken seriously. The reader reads that line, looks at the character called the Sphinx, realises there's more to them, connects Alleras = Sarella if they haven't already. 

I actually think you're right, but I did want to rule Alleras=Quaithe out if we could, and then see if they're playing a similar or contrary game.  The most remarkable "riddler" we have in the series is Quaithe the shadow binder.  When Aemon was fever dream talking, that's who I thought he was referring to, the riddler and the sphinx, who can communicate with him shipboard like Quaithe seemed to do with Dany, and has possible access to a glass candle through someone named Urrathon Nightwalker.

But instead we're suddenly introduced to Alleras/Sarella with her obvious anagram name, and her contrived nickname of Sphinx, who also has access to a candle through Marwin (who has studied in Asshai, and specifically with shadow binders) and because of the way she repeats Aamon's terminology from the dream, it seems she was the one sending.

It felt to me like bait and switch: we're baited into reconsidering mysterious Quaithe as the sphinx, but a switch has been pulled to sell a cheaper, or at least more obvious, product, Alleras.

Not that I'm not interested in Alleras in her own right, but I don't really understand the misdirection, if it was misdirection, or whether to consider parallels.  So it occurred to me they could be the same person, particularly as Quaithe speaks in perfect Westerosi common tongue, indicating that's where she's originally from.  Wet and shiny eyes like Quaithe's don't preclude big and onyx like Alleras's, and if I remember right Oberyn's eyes were black and shiny.  

I really do agree that it is unlikely a 16 year old got herself established on that council but George has a way of making the unlikely likelier for these young kids, as witness the rather remarkable achievements of 11 year old Arya, 16 year old Jon, etc. If Alleras was Quaithe, this would be a really deep game she's playing for unfathomable reasons, so I don't think George is going there, but it is worth considering for me, if not for you.

And if she's not Quaithe, why are we being shown her parallels to Quaithe?

[Lady Barbrey]

2 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is no evidence connecting Sarella and Qaithe.  We can't ignore the impossibility of being in two places at almost the same.  Glass candle projection doesn't explain how Qaithe rode with Xaro and Pyatt to meet Daenerys before her arrival in Qarth.  Other members of the Khaleesi's party saw Qaithe.  In broad daylight.

Qaithe wears a mask because that is normal for members of her order.  Why are the messages cryptic is because they are not given in 1080p high definition.  Qaithe get them by looking into the flames.  They are like foggy dreams.  A fortune teller gives herself a lot of room by being vague.  The client will be hard pressed to call out their mistakes that way.

Qaithe, Pyatt, and Xaro are like the three wise men coming to meet the baby Jesus.  To wonder and marvel at the dragons.  Yet they each have their own agenda.  They are powerful people who seek to win the help of the more powerful Daenerys to achieve their goals.  Pyatt wants to keep his undying friends alive.  Xaro is greed.  Qaithe wants to bring the savior to Asshai.

I don't disagree with almost any of this except I think she could have physically left Qarth and joined the Citadel. There appears to be time enough to do it. Her most recent sending to Dany could have been from Marwyn's glass candle not Urrathon's.  I think.

As above, there are parallels, not direct evidence that one is the other, but as with most of Martin's parallels, this one seems to point to something I was hoping the forum might help solve or dismiss.

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Are they the same person?  

Everyone in the books is either Benjen, Dario of Euron

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Or two different sphinxes?

Since everyone is being skinchanged by bloodraven, they technically are the same 

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

A sphinx is primarily known for three properties: 1) a hybrid 2) a riddler and 3) a protector (statues of sphinxes are usually set up for protective purposes).  Other things too but these are the main ones.

Aamon's dream on the ship talks of unlit glass candles, eggs that won't hatch, and the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler, whatever that might mean.

Quaithe is the supreme riddler of the series; Dany is always trying to figure out her riddles.  A tie-in here is that Dany thinks she sees Quaithe on board ship, and it is on board ship that Aemon has his fever dream that seems a portent.  Moreover, at least on the surface, she seems to be acting as Dany's unsolicited protector.

Alleras/Sarella is actually called a Sphinx.  She's about 20, has been at the citadel for just a year, has connections to Marwyn, who has connections to Asshai and shadow binding and taught Mirri.  She is involved in some Great Game according to Doran, and her mother has a ship so she can get around a bit more easily perhaps than other characters.  But what's really interesting about her is that in the course of her conversations with Sam, she seems to eerily mirror Aamon's fever dream pronouncements, about unlit candles and unhatched eggs in the same way he said them. (Sorry, unable to pull quotes with my tablet, but you can see for yourself easily enough).

I thought Quaithe an older woman because she is an established member of that council.  But she's so fully masked we can't tell, nor do we know how long she's been on this council, nor do we know whether an original Quaithe could not have been replaced because who could tell behind that mask?

Anyway, thought I'd put that out there for the more acute minds amongst us who have a better memory and grasp of the text than I do.  Here are the things I'm thinking about:

1) Could Alleras be Quaithe? Alleras joins the citadel a year before but this would be after meeting with Dany.  Logistically possible.

 Of course.  Zig zagging around the ocean while taking on a major education. I mean, look at how easy it was for Vic to get to slaver's bay. Easy as pie. There to westeros and back should be no problem. Especially if Bloodraven is warging the ship's crew  

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

2) If not, are Alleras and Quaithe related in some way?

Both mother and father obvs. 

19 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

3) If they are the same, what does that tell us about Alleras's Great Game?

Bloodraven's great game. He is the skinchanger bored in a tree controlling everyone and everything 

20 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

4) If they are the same, what was Aemon telling us and Sam?  He seems to be directing our attention not to the riddles Quaithe directly poses for Dany, nor to the riddling function of a Sphinx, but to what is the nature of a Sphinx itself?

Aemon was telling sam what bloodraven wanted him to know. Probably because he is bored and enjoys confusing people 

20 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

5) A little more esoterically:  Were sphinxes once a thing, people with certain abilities known in the past (not just the obvious skinchangers or dragon riders), that are showing up again with magic on the rise?

They were supposedly in the freehold 

 

[867-5309]

6 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

Really not seeing the connection, or how Sarella is Quaithe. Like you say, it's logistically possible, but I don't see it being probable or likely, and am really struggling to see what the evidence for this theory actually is. Quaithe seems to be established in Qarth, as someone important or notable... hence being part of the trio sent to greet Dany. Whereas, all we've been told about Sarella is that she's playing a "game" (not a "great game")... If she'd been apprenticed to Marwyn, learning all of this magic nonsense, travelling halfway round the world, several years in advance, to become established in Qarth as some 15 year old or whatnot, then I think Doran would have a little more to say about what she's up to than just "leave her to her game". GRRM would give us some textual hint to suggest that Alleras had, say, visited Qarth, or was familiar with Dany and her Dragons. 

There's nothing to connect the appearances of the two characters... Quaithe is masked, so we only have her eyes described, as wet and shiny, but that doesn't match with Alleras, who has large black eyes. If Quaithe's eyes were black, I think that'd be mentioned, to give us some sort of physical similarity between the two characters. 

Alleras/Sarella already has a secret identity, I don't see there being a third introduced. I always took Aemon's line about the sphinx being the riddle, not the riddler, as showing us that Targ dreams have to be taken seriously. The reader reads that line, looks at the character called the Sphinx, realises there's more to them, connects Alleras = Sarella if they haven't already. 

 

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is no evidence connecting Sarella and Qaithe.  We can't ignore the impossibility of being in two places at almost the same.  Glass candle projection doesn't explain how Qaithe rode with Xaro and Pyatt to meet Daenerys before her arrival in Qarth.  Other members of the Khaleesi's party saw Qaithe.  In broad daylight.

Qaithe wears a mask because that is normal for members of her order.  Why are the messages cryptic is because they are not given in 1080p high definition.  Qaithe get them by looking into the flames.  They are like foggy dreams.  A fortune teller gives herself a lot of room by being vague.  The client will be hard pressed to call out their mistakes that way.

Qaithe, Pyatt, and Xaro are like the three wise men coming to meet the baby Jesus.  To wonder and marvel at the dragons.  Yet they each have their own agenda.  They are powerful people who seek to win the help of the more powerful Daenerys to achieve their goals.  Pyatt wants to keep his undying friends alive.  Xaro is greed.  Qaithe wants to bring the savior to Asshai.

 

2 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I don't disagree with almost any of this except I think she could have physically left Qarth and joined the Citadel. There appears to be time enough to do it. Her most recent sending to Dany could have been from Marwyn's glass candle not Urrathon's.  I think.

As above, there are parallels, not direct evidence that one is the other, but as with most of Martin's parallels, this one seems to point to something I was hoping the forum might help solve or dismiss.

 

The sand snake has never met Dany before.  She has no justification to mask her appearance.  My guess for who Quaithe is is Shiera but even that is a long stretch.  The eyes do not match the historical accounts of Shiera's different colored eyes.  Unsettling if you ask me but I guess that is considered attractive.  Oh well.  

What Lady Barbrey suggests is not impossible but I will also say it is not probable.  It has a greater chance than the Daario = Euron theory.  

[Lady Barbrey]

7 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

 

 

The sand snake has never met Dany before.  She has no justification to mask her appearance.  My guess for who Quaithe is is Shiera but even that is a long stretch.  The eyes do not match the historical accounts of Shiera's different colored eyes.  Unsettling if you ask me but I guess that is considered attractive.  Oh well.  

What Lady Barbrey suggests is not impossible but I will also say it is not probable.  It has a greater chance than the Daario = Euron theory.  

Ha! Thanks for the vote of confidence with that last sentence lol.  I haven't been on the forum in some years now nor read the books in that time period so I was rather hoping something along these lines had already been discussed in the interval but don't see a full thread in the search though others appear to have wondered the same.  Thank you for at least thinking about it!  And I agree - improbable but not impossible.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I guess I'm wondering if Valyrians had a separate strain of fire magic practitioners, separate from dragon riders, that they called Sphinxes, whose main role was protection of Valyria and Valyrians.

Perhaps the sphinxes role was to protect and guard the 14 Flames of Valyria that were integral to the Free Hold's power. It's said Valyrians first found their dragon's  in the 14 flames and that firewyrms also lurked deep within the mines beneath it, burning alive the slaves that were looking for precious metals. Then you have the mages, who according to the lore maintained the 14 Flames with spells and rituals that kept them going and in control. Maybe the mages were connected to the sphinxes somehow, or worked with them. Since the mages were killed off by the dragonlords maybe the sphinxes were too. Lots of strange magics going on in and around those volcanoes, that for sure. If I had to venture a guess I'd say that glass candles came from the volcanoes somehow.

21 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Why a Dornish noblewoman like Alleras might be part of that is ground for guesswork only.

To me Alleras seems to have the best part of her father in my opinion, a thirst for knowledge. Oberyn himself studied at the  Citadel and traveled through Essos. Nymeria's mother was of the "Old blood" that lived behind the Black Wall of Volantis. The Black Wall's architecture, that includes sphinxes, was built by the Valyrians of the Freehold and all it's nobles can trace their ancestry back to the Freehold. Even a dornish prince like Oberyn would need a direct invitation to be allowed in, so he must have had some connections. Perhaps he found important information about dragons/Valyrians/ect.. from the Old Blood and passed it down to Serella, who is intelligent enough to put it to use.

Also not sure if this is of any help but I found a quote of Tyrion talking about dragons(maybe Dany) riddling with sphinxes(maybe Quaithe)

Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons,dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants,dragons riddling with sphinxes...

Could also allude to the dragons nesting in the 14 Flames above the mines and the firewyms burning the slaves mining for gold there. Also could mean that Dany's dragons might be filling their bellies with the Golden Company's elephants.

[hiemal]

On 10/12/2018 at 7:20 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

Big question.  Seems to be Dany.  Steering her towards Asshai for the 'truth' and reminding her who she is, fire and blood, which is a bit ominous.  I'm rather in the school of Valyrians were once a necessary evil to wipe out the Others, and are so again, but Dany left to herself afterwards and the planet will get another Valyria which did as much or more damage, certainly over thousands of years, than the Others did in the one generation Long Night.

I like that. From whence do you think this pendulum originated? My own not thoughts are not dissimilar: I think that the Others/Valyrians-GeotD are only two players in this game. I think previous cycles included the Children and the Deep Ones in the war that broke the Iron Islands and gave Battle Island its name. I posit another cycle in which the sides were the hypothetical reptile people of Sothoryos who built Yeen and the inhabitants of K'Dath who may or may not have been the Deep Ones as well. The Lovecraft vibe is strong with those ones so I'm inclined to think they may have two gos.

Quote

Another person whose goal we don't know.  I want to like her though.  She's certainly the most interesting of the Dornish to me right now.  And I think as a protector sphinx, she might be going to protect Old town and the Citadel.

Definitely. I tinfoil that she will be shoot Euron right through his black (frowning?) eye. I'm seeing parallels between Euron/Balor and Sarella/Lugh of the Irish myth cycles but for that to really work he would have find time to kill Jaime Goldenhand/Nuada Silverhand first and I'm not sure where he'd find the time.

Regardless, she is definitely IMHO a guardian of knowledge in general and Citadel specifically. I have a soft spot for all the characters in the series who love books.

Quote

Yes.  But that's an old mystery - I'm wondering if something new has come into the mix.  The Quaithe/Shiera would be fun for the storyline, though if Quaithe has mismatched eyes I think we'd have been told as It's the only part of her that can be seen. So for now she's out for me.

The heterochromia does seem significant, but what?

And does it relate to those who have false eyes? Our three examples are so different from one another that it is difficult to find any common threads.

 

 

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

10 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

There is no evidence connecting Sarella and Qaithe.  We can't ignore the impossibility of being in two places at almost the same.  Glass candle projection doesn't explain how Qaithe rode with Xaro and Pyatt to meet Daenerys before her arrival in Qarth.  Other members of the Khaleesi's party saw Qaithe.  In broad daylight.

Qaithe wears a mask because that is normal for members of her order.  Why are the messages cryptic is because they are not given in 1080p high definition.  Qaithe get them by looking into the flames.  They are like foggy dreams.  A fortune teller gives herself a lot of room by being vague.  The client will be hard pressed to call out their mistakes that way.

Qaithe, Pyatt, and Xaro are like the three wise men coming to meet the baby Jesus.  To wonder and marvel at the dragons.  Yet they each have their own agenda.  They are powerful people who seek to win the help of the more powerful Daenerys to achieve their goals.  Pyatt wants to keep his undying friends alive.  Xaro is greed.  Qaithe wants to bring the savior to Asshai.

Yes.  

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

Perhaps the sphinxes role was to protect and guard the 14 Flames of Valyria that were integral to the Free Hold's power. It's said Valyrians first found their dragon's  in the 14 flames and that firewyrms also lurked deep within the mines beneath it, burning alive the slaves that were looking for precious metals. Then you have the mages, who according to the lore maintained the 14 Flames with spells and rituals that kept them going and in control. Maybe the mages were connected to the sphinxes somehow, or worked with them. Since the mages were killed off by the dragonlords maybe the sphinxes were too. Lots of strange magics going on in and around those volcanoes, that for sure. If I had to venture a guess I'd say that glass candles came from the volcanoes somehow.

You know what, this makes excellent sense to me.  It also kind of helps make sense that the first fire mage we know about arrived so recently in Westeros.   For some reason, fire mages seemed uninterested in Westeros as well as dragon riders.

To me Alleras seems to have the best part of her father in my opinion, a thirst for knowledge. Oberyn himself studied at the  Citadel and traveled through Essos. Nymeria's mother was of the "Old blood" that lived behind the Black Wall of Volantis. The Black Wall's architecture, that includes sphinxes, was built by the Valyrians of the Freehold and all it's nobles can trace their ancestry back to the Freehold. Even a dornish prince like Oberyn would need a direct invitation to be allowed in, so he must have had some connections. Perhaps he found important information about dragons/Valyrians/ect.. from the Old Blood and passed it down to Serella, who is intelligent enough to put it to use.

Yes I was thinking about this when I posted the thread.  Excellent points!

Also not sure if this is of any help but I found a quote of Tyrion talking about dragons(maybe Dany) riddling with sphinxes(maybe Quaithe)

Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking dragons,dragons hoarding gold and gems, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants,dragons riddling with sphinxes...

Absolutely, great catch!

Could also allude to the dragons nesting in the 14 Flames above the mines and the firewyms burning the slaves mining for gold there. Also could mean that Dany's dragons might be filling their bellies with the Golden Company's elephants.

Lol.

 

[Bowen Marsh]

Qaithe is just a shadowbinder from Asshai.  That place would have the best library on fire lore.