Bernard Cornwell - warlord chronicles and beyond

[Zorral]

The discoveries that have been made by archaeology have really changed the way historians view things since about the 1980's.  This is particularly the case for European history prior to the modern era. What we've learned about the Franks, the Merovingians, the Scandinavians and Germanic tribes before, during and after the Roman empire via archaeology has moved goalposts of every kind, just as other discoveries keep moving further and further back the human habitation of the planet, agriculture and so much else.

Before  the 1980's though, it was as if there was a non-permeable barrier between history and archaeology.  And it took into the 2000's for historians across the board to get on board with this, so to speak.  So much of what has been considered gospel for over a century about who and what and when and where about the interregnum after Rome no longer directly ruled Gaul, etc., and then the early and later Middle Ages, what happened with Charles Martel and Charlemagne, has really, really been changed in terms of the record.

[Which Tyler]

I read the hell out of these books as they were being released, and for a good few years after; having overdosed on them back them, I've had them on the backburner to revisit since then. This thread has me doing that - still love them, and they still hold their place as my favourite book series.

I'm currently half way through "The Winter King"; and have noticed Merlin's favourite saying that "Fate is inexorable" has made 2 appearances so far - whilst Merlin himself is yet to show up.

Show's how long it's been since I last read these ones, since I joined the Saxon Chronicles whilst it was a trilogy

[Zorral]

Warlords takes its own good sweet time for everything.  This is in contrast with a goodly part of Saxon Stories, though not always -- sometimes the books stay in one place for what seems an endless amount of time, such as the period of enslavement -- which felt the same when shown on screen in Last Kingdom.  But then, isn't that part of the hell of being a slave?

What always seems to remain in all of Cornwell's books, no matter when they are set: being loved by the narrator-protagonist means death for the members of the female sex, whether lover, enemy, daughter, wife.  Often sooner rather than later. 

[Mosi Mynn]

7 minutes ago, Zorral said:

What always seems to remain in all of Cornwell's books, no matter when they are set: being loved by the narrator-protagonist means death for the members of the female sex, whether lover, enemy, daughter, wife.  Often sooner rather than later. 

Are women and girls particularly singled out?  My impression was that everyone had the potential to meet a brutal and untimely end! 

[Zorral]

How many wives and lovers has Uhtred had already?   How many women came and went in Sharpe's life?  Even Derfel -- his daughter is killed, keeping a whole lot of the plot in motion.  The mother of his children died in childbirth, he tells us right early on in the first Warlord.  But our protag-narrator reaches a very old age, which for someone with their professions and the ages in which they lived is very unusual. Makes for a voice and tone and structural set-up for series of course.  But it's always motivating the next chapter in their lives for the woman to be fridged.

 

[Mosi Mynn]

9 hours ago, Zorral said:

How many wives and lovers has Uhtred had already?   How many women came and went in Sharpe's life?  Even Derfel -- his daughter is killed, keeping a whole lot of the plot in motion.  The mother of his children died in childbirth, he tells us right early on in the first Warlord.  But our protag-narrator reaches a very old age, which for someone with their professions and the ages in which they lived is very unusual. Makes for a voice and tone and structural set-up for series of course.  But it's always motivating the next chapter in their lives for the woman to be fridged.

 

Spoiler

Uhtred's wife died so that the Athelflaed thing could happen,  yes.

It was only Teresa for Sharpe, wasn't it?

Derfel didn't have any lovers die, I think. 

What about the innumerable soldiers who die? You can only safely get attached to the main character and his Irish friend  (and that doesn't ultimatelywork for one year of them either :-()

[Zorral]

9 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

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Uhtred's wife died so that the Athelflaed thing could happen,  yes.

It was only Teresa for Sharpe, wasn't it?

Derfel didn't have any lovers die, I think. 

What about the innumerable soldiers who die? You can only safely get attached to the main character and his Irish friend  (and that doesn't ultimatelywork for one year of them either :-()

Derfel was unusual in being both faithful and happy for so long, that's for sure.  He even discusses this with Igraine . . . .

But the fridging of daughter was a major, major motivation for so much.

But yes, the deaths of so many loyal soldiers and retainers -- and brothers -- are what is to be expected from their lives, as the protagonists tell us frequently too.

But I do say whenever Uhtred in particular (coz he has the most books except Sharpe) falls happily in love, or has beloved daughters, I expect that soon those female characters will be dead. And not unlikely, violently. 

 

[Mosi Mynn]

12 minutes ago, Zorral said:

But the fridging of daughter was a major, major motivation for so much.

....

But I do say whenever Uhtred in particular (coz he has the most books except Sharpe) falls happily in love, or has beloved daughters, I expect that soon those female characters will be dead. And not unlikely, violently. 

 

I'm not sure Dian's death is really fridging. It's a horrible vicious heartbreaking tragedy - good storytelling,  l'd say.

Spoiler

Stiorra is still alive and being awesome. And Athelflaed sort of had to die because of history!  Poor Judas-Uhtred, though - grim. 

 

[Zorral]

17 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I'm not sure Dian's death is really fridging. It's a horrible vicious heartbreaking tragedy - good storytelling,  l'd say.

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Stiorra is still alive and being awesome. And Athelflaed sort of had to die because of history!  Poor Judas-Uhtred, though - grim. 

 

One does think, however, there should be other ways to tell stories and move them along other than female deaths as motivators?  This objection is related to the objection that the only way writers can think of to justify  female characters' violence and keep them sympathetic with audiences is by avenging rape, or child's murder, etc.

However, let me repeat how much I do ultimately admire Cornwell's take on the Arthurian cycles, how he places them so firmly within history and geography, and shows the pagan Celts druids etc. as foolishly, ignorantly and as lying as the Christians.  It's not ancient magic at all but the eternal trickery of all religions as practiced by their leaders for their own purposes, whatever they are.

 

[Corvinus85]

I don't know about Sharpe, but there's a weird pattern, potentially, with certain female characters going crazy and becoming antagonists. This on top of so many other female characters tragically dying.

[Mosi Mynn]

2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I don't know about Sharpe, but there's a weird pattern, potentially, with certain female characters going crazy and becoming antagonists. This on top of so many other female characters tragically dying.

Nimue

Spoiler

and Brida

are the only ones I can immediately think of - although dismissing them both as crazy would be a bit simplistic. 

[Zorral]

Mildrith, his first wife, that Alfred had him marry.  She didn't die, but she sure disliked him and went off to hide in a convent. She was much less antagonistic in the tv series than in the books, in which she most definitely does not wish Uhtred well in anything.  Also he just dumped her to take up with Iseult.

Of course Alfred's wife, Ealhswith, is his implacable enemy, and even more so in the books than in the series.

One might say there are some women who see right through Uhtred and do not fall for his charm -- unlike, say Hild.    Though she is so much her own woman that she never falls physically for his blandishments, which is one of the reasons we like her so much.  Also, then, she doesn't die! 

[Mosi Mynn]

I don't blame Mildrith or Aelswith at all! I'm glad there are female characters like them who see right through Uhtred (who is an arrogant cad, frankly!) and have their own agency.

Iseult could be considered fridged or disposable,  poor thing

[Zorral]

10 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I don't blame Mildrith or Aelswith at all! I'm glad there are female characters like them who see right through Uhtred (who is an arrogant cad, frankly!) and have their own agency.

Iseult could be considered fridged or disposable,  poor thing

That there are so many female characters, and they are different is one of my favorite things about the series.  The actors on the screen version are terrific (with the exception of pouty Skede's -- who was awful).  There's so much enjoyment watching them in all their scenes.

[SeanF]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:23 AM, Mosi Mynn said:

Nimue

  Hide contents

and Brida

are the only ones I can immediately think of - although dismissing them both as crazy would be a bit simplistic. 

They aren't crazy (highly intelligent in fact) but they are both religious fanatics

 

22 hours ago, Zorral said:

That there are so many female characters, and they are different is one of my favorite things about the series.  The actors on the screen version are terrific (with the exception of pouty Skede's -- who was awful).  There's so much enjoyment watching them in all their scenes.

Eanfled saw through Uhtred pretty quickly but she fades out of the story.

Aethelflaed is a good character.  Rather like Catherine the Great, she takes Uhtred as her lover and military commander, without losing her judgement.

 

[Mosi Mynn]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

They aren't crazy (highly intelligent in fact) but they are both religious fanatics

 

Eanfled saw through Uhtred pretty quickly but she fades out of the story.

Aethelflaed is a good character.  Rather like Catherine the Great, she takes Uhtred as her lover and military commander, without losing her judgement.

They are both utterly inflexible and never swerve from their goal - brilliant characters. In lesser stories the "love of the hero" might have swayed them.

Aethelflaed is an awesome lady - her historical self is even more brilliant. 

[Zorral]

59 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

They are both utterly inflexible and never swerve from their goal - brilliant characters. In lesser stories the "love of the hero" might have swayed them.

Aethelflaed is an awesome lady - her historical self is even more brilliant. 

 

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Mosi Mynn said:

They are both utterly inflexible and never swerve from their goal - brilliant characters. In lesser stories the "love of the hero" might have swayed them.

Aethelflaed is an awesome lady - her historical self is even more brilliant. 

I wish we'd had a book, or part of a book, from her point of view.

[Zorral]

Here's a recent book featuring this figure, and though the readers seemed to found the character and the period fascinating, and were informed of a great deal they didn't previously know, one and all mention it was so badly edited as to make it fairly difficult to read.  And most of the book goes to Alfred . . . .  There are no reviews of the book either, anywhere I can find other than by readers, as opposed to professional reviewers for professional publication.

This was of interest:

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/1445662043/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_cmps_btm?

Quote

A third major feature of this book is the author’s comparisons between what little is known of her through the scanty historical records – she did not have her “biographer”, unlike her father – with the various legends and ways she has been presented up to modern times. In addition to Victorian times, Joanna Arman alludes several to Bernard Cornwell’s characters in his Warrior’s Chronicles (now renamed the Last Kingdom series) and shows how the novelist has somewhat slanted and modified the record to make room for his hero Uthred. For instance, Lord Aethelred was a rather powerful and successful warlord and was neither a coward nor incapable and so was Edward the Elder. There is no evidence that either were jealous or envious of Aethelflaed, although there might have been some rivalry between the siblings.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31742371-the-warrior-queen

And yet another UPDATE, of something else I just stumbled upon, talking about why Last Kingdom works so well, and also about Vikings:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/nov/23/god-gore-and-gossip-the-surprising-winning-formula-of-the-viking-dramas
 

Quote

 

Even though The Last Kingdom is less explicitly spiritual, we still have Alfred the Great as a central character, a devout monarch, driven by a vision of one nation under God, the Kingdom of England. At the heart of both Vikings and The Last Kingdom are family men of faith on a mission, men equally comfortable dishing out the sacred and the profane. The shows’ defining hustle is a bait-and-switch. The promise of blood and destruction sucks you in but it’s the nuanced spiritual journeys that make you a believer.

 

 

[Zorral]

Woo -- I am still in the third volume, Excalibur, the final Warlord Chronicle.  This is considerably longer than the average Saxon Story title. I am close to the end though.

All of you, who, above, announced this is like no Arthur before or since -- and that it is the best Arthur -- you are so right (I assume we're not speaking of the Romances or Malory, etc. which are all literary masterpieces of their own, of literature, if nothing else). No Romance here, yet everything we know of Arthur from the Romances etc. is here.  I'm really impressed.