Dragonlords & the Valyrian Freehold

[Lord Varys]

16 hours ago, Jaak said:

That was the Doom, though.

With the seas still smoking (and apparently sighing, whatever that means in this context) I'd think it could still be hot enough to burn a dragon if it is stupid enough to fly to a place it should not be. And we do learn in ADwD that the Doom rules still in Valyria, no? I mean, the sight Tyrion sees from the ship doesn't indicate things have cooled down over there...

16 hours ago, Jaak said:

But Aurion can be forgiven for his lack of caution. He was the first after the Doom to try going back to Valyria. Valyria is no longer issuing hundred foot waves every hour. In Aurion´s time, no one yet knew it was not safe to go and bury those who had died in Valyria.

Exactly. And one can see a surviving dragonlord with family and kin and property there to be, well, rasher and less cautious than may have been reasonable. And if acted rather quickly after the news of the Doom reached him, things may have been very bad there when he arrived.

16 hours ago, Jaak said:

A chain of 30 000 men with 100 yards between each man would be 1700 miles long. People live and continue to live in Mantarys. So it might be logical to build a chain of people Mantarys to Valyria, all in eyesight of next, and ask the last man who came back what exactly happened to first man who did not.

I guess there are reasons why nobody has done that up to this point. And how well things are in Mantarys is up to debate, too. There supposedly also live people in Tyria and Oros, but we don't know anything about those people, either.

[Jaak]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

With the seas still smoking (and apparently sighing, whatever that means in this context) I'd think it could still be hot enough to burn a dragon if it is stupid enough to fly to a place it should not be. And we do learn in ADwD that the Doom rules still in Valyria, no? I mean, the sight Tyrion sees from the ship doesn't indicate things have cooled down over there...

Exactly. And one can see a surviving dragonlord with family and kin and property there to be, well, rasher and less cautious than may have been reasonable. And if acted rather quickly after the news of the Doom reached him, things may have been very bad there when he arrived.

One flying dragon, sure.

An army marching with 30 000 men, waiting for outriders, baggage trains, camp followers, stragglers... That´s odder.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess there are reasons why nobody has done that up to this point. And how well things are in Mantarys is up to debate, too. There supposedly also live people in Tyria and Oros, but we don't know anything about those people, either.

Messengers go back and forth to Mantarys. Demon Road is passable in that a lot of people do get through.

It is odd that an army of 30 000 men vanished without trace, rather than 20 000 or 200 or 2 men returning to Mantarys with empty hands and some specific horror stories of what happened to those who did not return.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Jaak said:

One flying dragon, sure.

An army marching with 30 000 men, waiting for outriders, baggage trains, camp followers, stragglers... That´s odder.

Oh, one assumes they were seen up to the point where they were no longer seen. And there is no reason to believe the cities closer to Valyria had any living inhabitants around that time - or that whoever lived there (if anyone lived there) had all that much interest in the mad quest of Aurion to press on to Valyria.

11 hours ago, Jaak said:

Messengers go back and forth to Mantarys. Demon Road is passable in that a lot of people do get through.

It is odd that an army of 30 000 men vanished without trace, rather than 20 000 or 200 or 2 men returning to Mantarys with empty hands and some specific horror stories of what happened to those who did not return.

During the First Dornish War, an entire Tyrell army disappeared without a trace in the sands. Those things apparently do happen in this world. And they happen again and again with Valyria - Aurion and his people - gone - the Volantenes and their fleets - gone - Tommen II and his fleet - gone - Gerion Lannister - gone.

This is a pattern. Whether we think this makes sense is another point. But apparently the author seems to think Valyria isn't exactly the place to go if you want to return.

Which is also the reason why the Reader seems to doubt Euron's story - and we with him. It is very unlikely Euron Greyjoy actually went to Valyria.

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And they happen again and again with Valyria - Aurion and his people - gone - the Volantenes and their fleets - gone - Tommen II and his fleet - gone - Gerion Lannister - gone.

This is a pattern. Whether we think this makes sense is another point. But apparently the author seems to think Valyria isn't exactly the place to go if you want to return.

Which is also the reason why the Reader seems to doubt Euron's story - and we with him. It is very unlikely Euron Greyjoy actually went to Valyria.

Reader has read more than Yandel has written us. Note how little detail Yandel gives of Mantarys, or Demon Road, or whatever HAS been found between Mantarys and Valyria after Doom.

If the Doom still lying over Valyria were definite, fixed point dangers then people trying to explore Valyria might have noted these and reported them. But it is possible that they are more random occurrences - a party penetrates a certain route and returns to meet no dangers, then another party tries to follow the same route but vanishes with no survivors to report where they got or what happened.

[rotting sea cow]

On 11/3/2018 at 9:58 AM, Jaak said:

A chain of 30 000 men with 100 yards between each man would be 1700 miles long. People live and continue to live in Mantarys. So it might be logical to build a chain of people Mantarys to Valyria, all in eyesight of next, and ask the last man who came back what exactly happened to first man who did not.

  

 

22 hours ago, Jaak said:

Messengers go back and forth to Mantarys. Demon Road is passable in that a lot of people do get through.

It is odd that an army of 30 000 men vanished without trace, rather than 20 000 or 200 or 2 men returning to Mantarys with empty hands and some specific horror stories of what happened to those who did not return.

 

Isn't trying to split the hairs in four? (beyond of the logistical problems of that "chain")

The in-Universe answer for this is that Yandel hasn't had access to all documents. Plain and simply. He may update (or not) some info if he get access to additional sources.

From a story-telling perspective there are two possibilities

1) GRRM is trying to answer the original question of this thread. Yes, there were some surviving dragonlords, they just died out at different locations. So, don't get surprised if a few more dragonlords/ladies survived in other parts of Planetos. Because, it is not fundamental for the story our beloved author hasn't thought too much about it.

2) The story of Aurion is somewhat important and would have an impact down the road, so GRRM is holding some additional details. For example, we know that Missandei has been researching some scrolls in Meeren, maybe some of them describe the fate of Aurion and his army and together with Tyrion they puzzle out few things? Also, notice how similar Aurion and Euron sound like. Some people have speculated that the dragon horn, the dragon egg and the Valyrian steel armor stolen from the warlocks belonged originally to Aurion. ETC

BTW, I liked the @Lord Varys's suggestion that at the time of the Doom there was some event in Valyria that attracted many dragonlords/ladies there.

 

 

[Jaak]

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Isn't trying to split the hairs in four? (beyond of the logistical problems of that "chain")

The in-Universe answer for this is that Yandel hasn't had access to all documents. Plain and simply. He may update (or not) some info if he get access to additional sources.

Yandel quite systematically leaves a lot of mysteries where, by the logic of the matter, information should have existed to create a consistent picture.

7 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

BTW, I liked the @Lord Varys's suggestion that at the time of the Doom there was some event in Valyria that attracted many dragonlords/ladies there.

Unnecessary.

At the time of the war with Garin, no dragons at Volantis was the normal status quo. The three dragons who came to help Volantis of whom Rhoynar slew two were expressly called to help - not normally present. And Volantis is the Elder Daughter. So, dragonlords presence outside Valyria was not on steady basis. 3 dragonlords in Free Cities was not unusually few and does not require an event to recall them.

[dmfn]

On 11/5/2018 at 6:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

This is a pattern. Whether we think this makes sense is another point. But apparently the author seems to think Valyria isn't exactly the place to go if you want to return.

Which is also the reason why the Reader seems to doubt Euron's story - and we with him. It is very unlikely Euron Greyjoy actually went to Valyria.

OK so it's magic. Let's not think earthquake or volcano, but some other lingering affliction. In the sea, it's boiling, so some other thing than can't explained away... But if someone knew these dangers, set limits, short patrols, dragged people back with ropes... I wouldn't say Euron made the WHOLE story up. 

[Lord Varys]

On 11/5/2018 at 7:12 AM, Jaak said:

Reader has read more than Yandel has written us. Note how little detail Yandel gives of Mantarys, or Demon Road, or whatever HAS been found between Mantarys and Valyria after Doom.

That implies people investigated there and came back to tell other people. Do you know this was done?

On 11/5/2018 at 7:12 AM, Jaak said:

If the Doom still lying over Valyria were definite, fixed point dangers then people trying to explore Valyria might have noted these and reported them. But it is possible that they are more random occurrences - a party penetrates a certain route and returns to meet no dangers, then another party tries to follow the same route but vanishes with no survivors to report where they got or what happened.

From what we know about Tommen II, the Volantenes, and Gerion they all went there by ship. Which implies different yet similar routes.

21 hours ago, Jaak said:

Unnecessary.

At the time of the war with Garin, no dragons at Volantis was the normal status quo. The three dragons who came to help Volantis of whom Rhoynar slew two were expressly called to help - not normally present. And Volantis is the Elder Daughter. So, dragonlords presence outside Valyria was not on steady basis. 3 dragonlords in Free Cities was not unusually few and does not require an event to recall them.

We know the dragonlords were already in Volantis for the destruction of Sarhoy, no?

We also know that those Valyrian colonies that weren't free cities had Valyrian archons to rule them, many of which came on dragonback. So, no, not all dragonlords permanently resided in Valyria, and the very nature of being a dragonlord means you occasionally actually fly on your dragon. When the Doom started any dragonlord being in the air may have had a pretty good chance to get away depending where exactly in Valyria, the Lands of the Long Summer he or she was flying at the time.

If the Doom was artificially triggered by people with an agenda - like the Faceless Men - and if it was done to ensure the destruction of the Valyrian dragons, then it makes sense if the Doom was triggered during some festivity where as many dragonlords as possible were in the city, and better still, separate from their dragons because there was some great gathering where speeches were given, etc.

George obviously is aware that it is not very convincing that hundreds or thousands of dragonlords should have been killed by the Doom. That is why others aside from the Targaryens survived for a time.

47 minutes ago, dmfn said:

OK so it's magic. Let's not think earthquake or volcano, but some other lingering affliction. In the sea, it's boiling, so some other thing than can't explained away... But if someone knew these dangers, set limits, short patrols, dragged people back with ropes... I wouldn't say Euron made the WHOLE story up. 

I think the way he reacts when the Reader challenges him on his claim is giving the lie away. He really loses his cool there for a moment, which isn't something that would happen to a man who actually was in Valyria. He would know where he was and what he did, and he would rather laugh at Rodrik and belittle him for his lack of vision, etc. instead of getting aggressive. After all, if Euron was there his entire crew could confirm that, but we hear nothing about tales being spread of Valyria.

The better explanation as to where Euron got Dragonbinder and his supplies of shade of the evening are the warlocks of Qarth he has captured. There are dragon corpses in the Red Waste, implying there may have been a time when the dragonlords and the Pureborn/kings of Qarth warred in the old days, and if the Undying and there warlocks were much stronger back then, one can see them winning this or that ancient battle/war, allowing them to capture one of those dragon horns.

Not to mention that some dragonlords may have sought refuge or exile in Qarth after a lost civil war, bringing ancient magical artifacts with them.

In fact, one even wonders whether George might draw a line between such ancient dragonlords and the interest the Undying had in Daenerys. I mean, those Undying were pretty old, so technically some ancient dragonlord may have been among them, also helping to explain why those Undying (who, at this point, have no actual connection to Daenerys) knew so much about her fate and future.

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That implies people investigated there and came back to tell other people. Do you know this was done?

An elementary paradox:

Precisely how is the existence of "Smoking Sea" and post-Doom insular status of Valyria supposed to have become common knowledge if, as flatly stated by Yandel, "the ships that enter Smoking Sea do not return"?

 

We know that the post-Doom map of Valyria does not exist only for us the readers, but circulates in universe. We know it because Daenerys remarks on a tapestry being an old, pre-Doom map and showing Valyria as a peninsula.

 

Who published that map?

A ship that reached either coast of former Valyrian peninsula, found a smoking inlet that was not there before and saw that boats which entered the smoking waters to explore did not return could not deduce whether the inlets on two coasts were unconnected bays and Valyria was still a peninsula with a remnant isthmus, or whether the inlets connected to a strait and separated Valyria as an island.

Someone must have mapped the post-Doom coastlines, whether by sea, land or air, and lived to return, publish the map and be believed.

[Lord Varys]

Perhaps somebody just invented those coastlines? This is a medieval world...

[Jaak]

About the Valyrian borderlands, Yandel´s coverage is:

Quote

In fact, the road that joins Volantis to
Slaver’s Bay has become known as the “demon road,” and is best avoided by all sensible
travelers.

Quote

A few of the cities away from the heart of Valyria remain inhabited, however—places
founded by the Freehold or subject to it. The most sinister of these is Mantarys, a place
where the men are said to be born twisted and monstrous; some attribute this to the city’s
presence on the demon road.

Less than six lines, as printed.

Compare with other places unsafe for strangers to settle in:

Naath - 40 lines.

Sothoryos - 78 lines.

Asshai - 63 lines.

In terms of actual knowledge of the people who have braved the Demon Road and had the luck to survive, there should be more information available on Demon Road, Mantarys... and the lands between Mantarys and Valyria. Long lists of travellers who returned to report the fate of their comrades.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, Jaak said:

About the Valyrian borderlands, Yandel´s coverage is:

Less than six lines, as printed.

Compare with other places unsafe for strangers to settle in:

Naath - 40 lines.

Sothoryos - 78 lines.

Asshai - 63 lines.

In terms of actual knowledge of the people who have braved the Demon Road and had the luck to survive, there should be more information available on Demon Road, Mantarys... and the lands between Mantarys and Valyria. Long lists of travellers who returned to report the fate of their comrades.

And where is it stated that the cities around Valyria should get the same coverage as places people actually travel to? Valyria is not a place (m)any people travel, nor does the demon road seem to be a road that is often traveled. I mean, there is likely also a reason why it is called demon road and not angel road, right?

George also decided to not include anything about Qarth (aside from the background about the Qaathi people) and we do know this was intentional on his part.

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And where is it stated that the cities around Valyria should get the same coverage as places people actually travel to? Valyria is not a place (m)any people travel, nor does the demon road seem to be a road that is often traveled. I mean, there is likely also a reason why it is called demon road and not angel road, right?

George also decided to not include anything about Qarth (aside from the background about the Qaathi people) and we do know this was intentional on his part.

The enforced ignorance about Qarth, Slaver´s Bay and Valyrian borderlands is not shared by people inside the story.

Qarth is closer and richer than Asshai. A person inside the story would have much more detailed coverage of Qarth and Slaver´s Bay than Asshai.

People travel to and from Mantarys. The ambassadors of Daenerys were beheaded there, but they got there, and messengers got back with their heads. Demon road is considered by small groups and by armies - travellers get through often enough.

Compare Sothoryos. Only half who go there survive, and one in ten stays healthy. And Yandel spends 78 lines to describe the horrors reported by the half who returned.

In story, there ought to be quite a lot of detailed (if unfavourable) accounts of what precisely went wrong on "Demon" road and in Mantarys.

[Lord Varys]

7 hours ago, Jaak said:

The enforced ignorance about Qarth, Slaver´s Bay and Valyrian borderlands is not shared by people inside the story.

Qarth is closer and richer than Asshai. A person inside the story would have much more detailed coverage of Qarth and Slaver´s Bay than Asshai.

People travel to and from Mantarys. The ambassadors of Daenerys were beheaded there, but they got there, and messengers got back with their heads. Demon road is considered by small groups and by armies - travellers get through often enough.

Compare Sothoryos. Only half who go there survive, and one in ten stays healthy. And Yandel spends 78 lines to describe the horrors reported by the half who returned.

In story, there ought to be quite a lot of detailed (if unfavourable) accounts of what precisely went wrong on "Demon" road and in Mantarys.

Who cares what 'people' may have? Important is what the Citadel (or rather Yandel) have and what they care to introduce in a book that mostly focuses on Westeros. The grand and exotic Yi Ti inspires and mind and fantasy, Sothoryos is another continent full of promises and danger, one the Rhoynar actually lived at.

Slaver's Bay is ugly and decadent place simply not worth a visit, and the Lands of the Long Summer are, well, effectively dead.

We don't know of any Westerosi that actually traveled the demon road and returned, or do we?

[HexMachina]

Yandel is also just one maester. Just because he doesn’t write about it doesn’t mean the information doesn’t exist. It just means he either didn’t access it or considered it not worth including

[Destiny Arrives]

It had to be planned no lie i mean if note was made of killings of Sorcerers who kept the flames tale just proves someone was moving behind the scenes. The reason many Dragon Lords did leave the homeland alot is because it seems to have influence you have to remain there and own alot of land. Heck they said the the Targs were ridiculed for this so beign at home is important for them.