Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

[Mindrot]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Just to be clear, Cersei is a vapid, cruel, and at times pretty stupid person. She is full of herself and has a lot of narcissistic tendencies, and I really don't like her all that much.

But I still think she is a better person than Arya the serial-killer. Cersei never killed people with her own hands (aside from, perhaps, Melara), Cersei doesn't consider murder a solution to all her problems (like Arya), and Cersei actually has a reason behind most of her cruel acts that do not completely revolve around her own person - she also includes her children, her twin-brother/lover, and her overall family in all that. 

I don't think the Queen Regent has to apologize to you or anyone if she sentences a traitor to die. And yes, Senelle was a traitor considering that she worked as informer for Margaery Tyrell.

Cersei can fuck Jaime all day if Robert does the same with his whores. And that's what he did.

By the way - you do recall that Dany fucked Daario a good last time on the day of her wedding, too, no? She ended their relationship the moment she wed Hizdahr. Who is to say Cersei didn't originally intend to do that, too? After all, cuckolding the king is high treason and can cause a lot of problems.  

Ordering the killing of people is a far crueler and weaker willed act than actually doing the deed yourself.  Cersei constantly threatens having peoples tongues ripped, going so far as to argue with her son, the King, when he wanted NOT to rip people tongues out.  The kid was correct in this particular argument in case you missed it, not your girl.

 Your "Senelle was a traitor" logic must be a troll.  You cannot hold Robert to account for his lack of morals in regard to Cersei because she was also a traitor, committing HIGH TREASON by your own words, so the KING (not the Queen Regent...LOL, your girl), THE KING, by your own logic does not have to apologize to you or anyone else for how he deals with traitors, rape away Good King!?!

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't blame Cersei for wanting her husband to be fuck only her, his lawful wife. If you marry someone you should stick to your spouse, even more so in a world like Westeros.

Do you blame Robert for wanting to have sex with his Queen to make an heir?  His lawful wife?  What were his options if she never consented to sex?  What options did Cersei give him? 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But he didn't stay away. In Winterfell Cersei and the children break their fast with Jaime. This doesn't appear to be a rare or exceptional event.

Cersei lived a privileged life but her parents were both absent. Joanna died and Tywin was in KL - and not exactly emotionally accessible or a caring father. And the idea that wealth and privilege results in emotionally stable, nice children isn't a given.

Tyrion grew up in wealth and privilege, too, and he is pretty much as fucked-up as Cersei - both emotionally and, even more so, in his criminal record.

She had a better living standard than 99.9% of the women  that had ever existed on Westeros, she would have had Aunts, Uncles, Septas, Maesters, teachers of all sorts giving her guidance, you think she never studied ethics with her Maester?  But no, she was too emotionally traumatized as a child?  Your girl?  This is another troll post I assume.

 

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not getting any argument here that Cersei was not raped by Robert. Because there is no. That marital rape is no crime in Westeros - and that nobody would care if it was if the king does it - has nothing to do with the effect this kind of sexual abuse has on the victim.

There is no argument against rape because there was rape.  Lets look at the situation:  Robert wins the throne, he gives Cersei a kingdom, what is Cersei's responsibility as Queen in Westeros?  Is she there to rule along side the King?  Attending council meetings and signing diplomatic treaties along side her Husband?  No.  She is expected to bear his royal children.  She is expected to provide him a stable passage of power to the next generation.  If Cersei refuses to make an heir with Robert (which we both agree she did correct?), why should she be the Queen?  What is special about Cersei Lannister to make her The Queen?  What has she done to earn her Queenship?  She is suppose to provide royal heirs, how does this happen if she refuses to have sex with Robert?  How does this not negate her legitimate claim to being Queen?  (it does, High treason, we both agreed, its just no one knows about it.  Your girl disqualifies herself for the Title of Queen.  Your Girl).

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This was a rather special situation. Cersei just heard that her life is going to be a nightmare. And then Melara comes up with a solution for that problem. This wasn't Cersei's average day.

He is still a dwarf and ugly and he killed her mother. This is a 6-7-year-old we are talking about here. Children all believe the world revolves around themselves, they do not necessarily like the idea that they get some sibling they have to share things with, and if those siblings cause the deaths of their mother this can cast a very large shadow. We don't get that all that often in our day and age, but if I think my little brother (the one who was born when I was seven years old) had killed my mother who I love very much to this day I don't think I'd have loved my little brother as much as I do today.

Jaime had lost his mother also, yet he defended Tyrion from Your Girl.  She is a monster

[Clegane'sPup]

On 10/20/2018 at 4:39 AM, Springwatch said:

It's a point of view. Here's another one:

Ned threw his family under the bus.

The first version is much weaker, but you hear it fifty times more often. Similarly, Cat is more often blamed than Tywin for the war of 5 kings.

That's what I have a problem with. If there was an Artificial Intelligence educated on data from this forum, that AI would be significantly gender biased. (Maybe one day, someone will be able to do the experiment.) Is the fault in the books, or in us, collectively?

This particular thread is well balanced, which is good, because I was all ready to junk asoiaf and return to Lord of the Rings and not be bothered by female characters at all. I mean what's the point of giving lots of page time to well-crafted female characters if they're only going to be perceived as stupid evil trolls anyway?

Yes, I agree it is my point of view that Sansa threw her family under the bus. Your view differs which is okay with me.

I do not perceive martin's characters as stupid evil trolls. I do however perceive Sansa as a child with flaws. I do comprehend that said child has faced numerous difficulties and tragedies. Where martin takes Sansa I do not know. What I do know is that Sansa is helping to plan a tourney under the tutelage of LF.

 

[Clegane'sPup]

17 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She has changed though.  She is not the same girl as in AGOT.  Her circumstances have not changed greatly from KL and that limits her options - she is still a captive and her claim is still what makes her of value to her captor - but the girl who leads Robert Arryn over the narrow bridge is not the self-centered, whiny, selfish girl you took a dislike to in AGOT.

Yes, Sansa has changed/developed since the opening book. You may take issue with me on this but Sansa convincing Robert Arryn to traverse the bridge shows she has learned some diplomatic and self preservation skills. Which I find to be good skills.

Me, I mighta told Robert sumtin' like okay stay here and freeze.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, Mindrot said:

Ordering the killing of people is a far crueler and weaker willed act than actually doing the deed yourself.

Exactly. Eddard Stark reminded this to his children more than once. That, if they are able to pronounce a death sentence on someone, it's their responsibility to look into the man's eyes and hear his final words, then (if they still can) carry out the sentence with their own hands. It should not be an easy thing to execute a man.

Getting back to Cersei, at times she seemed almost a Red Queen out of Alice in Wonderland. When her father's body was discovered, she immediately ordered all the guards that had been on duty near his quarters killed on the spot. Jaime would have questioned them at length for any information about who they might have seen, what they might have heard. Even he knew that "you can't shoot and ask questions later." Cersei's casual attitude towards the dispensing of life and death were ... let's just say, not the mark of a good person.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

Ordering the killing of people is a far crueler and weaker willed act than actually doing the deed yourself.  Cersei constantly threatens having peoples tongues ripped, going so far as to argue with her son, the King, when he wanted NOT to rip people tongues out.  The kid was correct in this particular argument in case you missed it, not your girl.

That is not the case. People killing people are killers, people commanding that people are killed - especially within the framework of the existing justice system - are not killers. They are judges.

The king is a child. His opinion does not matter until he is an adult. Ripping out tongues is a well-established legal practice in the Seven Kingdoms. You might not like that, but it is not seen as inherently wrong.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

 Your "Senelle was a traitor" logic must be a troll. 

I don't think she deserved to be handed to Qyburn but she sure as hell betrayed the confidence of the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. That is treason, and the proper punishments for treason in this world is death.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

You cannot hold Robert to account for his lack of morals in regard to Cersei because she was also a traitor, committing HIGH TREASON by your own words, so the KING (not the Queen Regent...LOL, your girl), THE KING, by your own logic does not have to apologize to you or anyone else for how he deals with traitors, rape away Good King!?!

Robert had no idea that Cersei was committing high treason, not to mention that chances are pretty good that he started it. On the morning of her marriage Cersei was not yet a married woman, and even a king is supposed to keep his marriage vows. He is obligated to treat his wife the queen with the respect she deserves due to her station.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

Do you blame Robert for wanting to have sex with his Queen to make an heir?  His lawful wife?  What were his options if she never consented to sex?  What options did Cersei give him?

If you wife doesn't want to have sex with you and you force her it is marital rape. Period. People might want an heir all day long but this is not a fairy-tale world. You don't always get what you want. Not to mention that Robert had two strong and ambitious brothers to succeed him.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

She had a better living standard than 99.9% of the women  that had ever existed on Westeros, she would have had Aunts, Uncles, Septas, Maesters, teachers of all sorts giving her guidance, you think she never studied ethics with her Maester?  But no, she was too emotionally traumatized as a child?  Your girl?  This is another troll post I assume.

We don't know much about all that. All I pointed out is that Cersei's actual parents were absent/dead, and if Aerys II comment about Joanna's breasts is based in reality then she actually breastfed her twins herself - meaning that they would have had a stronger emotional connection to their mother than the average noble child.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

There is no argument against rape because there was rape.  Lets look at the situation:  Robert wins the throne, he gives Cersei a kingdom, what is Cersei's responsibility as Queen in Westeros?  Is she there to rule along side the King?  Attending council meetings and signing diplomatic treaties along side her Husband?  No.  She is expected to bear his royal children.  She is expected to provide him a stable passage of power to the next generation.  If Cersei refuses to make an heir with Robert (which we both agree she did correct?), why should she be the Queen?  What is special about Cersei Lannister to make her The Queen?  What has she done to earn her Queenship?  She is suppose to provide royal heirs, how does this happen if she refuses to have sex with Robert?  How does this not negate her legitimate claim to being Queen?  (it does, High treason, we both agreed, its just no one knows about it.  Your girl disqualifies herself for the Title of Queen.  Your Girl).

So marital rape isn't a thing when you want a child as a husband? Is that really your argument?

I'm in agreement that marital rape is no crime in Westeros - but this doesn't make the experience less traumatic. How often were you raped by your spouse? Do you like that idea? Do you like the idea to be chained to a fat drunkard and be force to pleasure him sexually whenever he wants? I don't think so.

Cersei was not just raped the few times Robert actually put his cock inside her, she was raped every time the man forced her to pleasure him in other ways.

6 hours ago, Mindrot said:

Jaime had lost his mother also, yet he defended Tyrion from Your Girl.  She is a monster

Cersei isn't my girl. Perhaps Jaime didn't bond with Joanna as much as Cersei? Or he was more capable of viewing beyond Tyrion's looks? We don't know.

[Clegane'sPup]

35 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not the case. People killing people are killers, people commanding that people are killed - especially within the framework of the existing justice system - are not killers. They are judges.

The king is a child. His opinion does not matter until he is an adult. Ripping out tongues is a well-established legal practice in the Seven Kingdoms. You might not like that, but it is not seen as inherently wrong.

I don't think she deserved to be handed to Qyburn but she sure as hell betrayed the confidence of the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. That is treason, and the proper punishments for treason in this world is death.

Robert had no idea that Cersei was committing high treason, not to mention that chances are pretty good that he started it. On the morning of her marriage Cersei was not yet a married woman, and even a king is supposed to keep his marriage vows. He is obligated to treat his wife the queen with the respect she deserves due to her station.

If you wife doesn't want to have sex with you and you force her it is marital rape. Period. People might want an heir all day long but this is not a fairy-tale world. You don't always get what you want. Not to mention that Robert had two strong and ambitious brothers to succeed him.

We don't know much about all that. All I pointed out is that Cersei's actual parents were absent/dead, and if Aerys II comment about Joanna's breasts is based in reality then she actually breastfed her twins herself - meaning that they would have had a stronger emotional connection to their mother than the average noble child.

So marital rape isn't a thing when you want a child as a husband? Is that really your argument?

I'm in agreement that marital rape is no crime in Westeros - but this doesn't make the experience less traumatic. How often were you raped by your spouse? Do you like that idea? Do you like the idea to be chained to a fat drunkard and be force to pleasure him sexually whenever he wants? I don't think so.

Cersei was not just raped the few times Robert actually put his cock inside her, she was raped every time the man forced her to pleasure him in other ways.

Cersei isn't my girl. Perhaps Jaime didn't bond with Joanna as much as Cersei? Or he was more capable of viewing beyond Tyrion's looks? We don't know.

Where does Sansa fit into the diatribe?

Is there a relevance to the thread title? Or opening post?

 

 

[Kandrax]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

especially within the framework of the existing justice system - are not killers. They are judges.

Even within the framework of 7K's justice system, everyone have right of trial, which wasn't granted to Ned's household or Robert's bastards.

[Mindrot]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is not the case. People killing people are killers, people commanding that people are killed - especially within the framework of the existing justice system - are not killers. They are judges.

Lol, Cersei the Judge.  Are you going to make any serious posts?  I see now why you have 17k posts.  Is there substance to any of them?  Maybe the early ones?  You just keep moving the goalposts.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The king is a child. His opinion does not matter until he is an adult. Ripping out tongues is a well-established legal practice in the Seven Kingdoms. You might not like that, but it is not seen as inherently wrong.

More trolling?  The King’s opinion is correct.  Your girl is showing her monsterous nature, nice attempt to evade.  You know what is also established legal practice in Westeros?  Queens providing heirs, you don’t seem so much a stickler on that one though....

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think she deserved to be handed to Qyburn but she sure as hell betrayed the confidence of the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. That is treason, and the proper punishments for treason in this world is death.

So by your logic Cersei does not even deserve to be Queen, she deserves to be dead.  Guess she got off lucky with a kingdom and the occasional sexual assault?  

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert had no idea that Cersei was committing high treason, not to mention that chances are pretty good that he started it. On the morning of her marriage Cersei was not yet a married woman, and even a king is supposed to keep his marriage vows. He is obligated to treat his wife the queen with the respect she deserves due to her station.

What is Cersei’s obligation again?  Oh that’s right you absolve her of any.  Your girl.  

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you wife doesn't want to have sex with you and you force her it is marital rape. Period. People might want an heir all day long but this is not a fairy-tale world. You don't always get what you want. Not to mention that Robert had two strong and ambitious brothers to succeed him.

You are ignoring the fact that the only reason Cersei is Queen is to perform this function.  If she is not going to provide heirs, she should not be Queen.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We don't know much about all that. All I pointed out is that Cersei's actual parents were absent/dead, and if Aerys II comment about Joanna's breasts is based in reality then she actually breastfed her twins herself - meaning that they would have had a stronger emotional connection to their mother than the average noble child.

More trolling?  Jaime was also breastfed, yet he defended Tyrion.  Try again.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So marital rape isn't a thing when you want a child as a husband? Is that really your argument?

You know that’s not my argument, nice try though.  More trolling.

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm in agreement that marital rape is no crime in Westeros - but this doesn't make the experience less traumatic. How often were you raped by your spouse? Do you like that idea? Do you like the idea to be chained to a fat drunkard and be force to pleasure him sexually whenever he wants? I don't think so.

Well since you said before that ripping out people’s tongues is no big deal so I will just use the same argument for marital rape.  If Cersei is not a monster for ordering tongues ripped out, Robert is not a monster for taking his kingly rights.  Also he was not a fat drunken slob, he was a warrior-King who just won his throne.  Nice try though.  

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei was not just raped the few times Robert actually put his cock inside her, she was raped every time the man forced her to pleasure him in other ways.

Cersei isn't my girl. Perhaps Jaime didn't bond with Joanna as much as Cersei? Or he was more capable of viewing beyond Tyrion's looks? We don't know.

Does Cersei ever even mention her mother in POVs?  You are making stuff up to try and defend your girl.  I know it’s devastating that your girl shows such clear malevolence before Robert ever even “started the circle of abuse”.  Care to try again?  

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Even within the framework of 7K's justice system, everyone have right of trial, which wasn't granted to Ned's household or Robert's bastards.

Nay, they do not. There are countless precedents against that, most notably all the people who actually got their tongues ripped out without a proper trial.

It is certainly an ugly way to punish somebody, but it is a reality in a medieval society.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Lol, Cersei the Judge.  Are you going to make any serious posts?  I see now why you have 17k posts.  Is there substance to any of them?  Maybe the early ones?  You just keep moving the goalposts.

Man, if I have an official function in the society I live and if said society is a medieval monarchy without silly stuff like due process and right to appeal and all that, I do not commit crimes if I command the execution of people I consider to be traitors. That's just how it is. There is a difference there - like in any society - between people acting in the name of the state or government and those who do not.

Cersei is the one acts in the name and on behalf of the government and the king, and Arya is just a little serial killer.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

More trolling?  The King’s opinion is correct.  Your girl is showing her monsterous nature, nice attempt to evade.  You know what is also established legal practice in Westeros?  Queens providing heirs, you don’t seem so much a stickler on that one though....

LOL, no. Queens are not legally required to be fertile. And while Westeros does not acknowledge marital rape this doesn't change that Cersei was raped by her husband. It is irrelevant what her duties in your rape apologist mind are - the crucial thing is that she was raped by the fat drunkard, and that this affected and shaped her personality.

This is perfectly clear when she repeats Robert's abusive and rapist behavior when having sex with Taena. That's the whole point of that scene. To show how her life at the side of Robert the Rapist affected and changed.

A Cersei not married to this rapist would never have had any inclination or reason to basically repeat the thing she suffered when sleeping with Taena.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

So by your logic Cersei does not even deserve to be Queen, she deserves to be dead.  Guess she got off lucky with a kingdom and the occasional sexual assault?  

What Cersei deserves and what she is and in whose name she acts are different things. Of course she doesn't deserve to be Queen Regent, nor do her bastards deserve to wear crowns. But they do.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

More trolling?  Jaime was also breastfed, yet he defended Tyrion.  Try again.

Again, perhaps he didn't give a rat's ass about his mother. Just as he didn't give a rat's ass about Bran (unlike Cersei, who did not want him to try to kill him - she wanted him to allow him to fall on his own, which is a difference) or his own children. Jaime is the one who completely revolves around himself. He isn't even particularly sad or distraught after his own father is slain by the brother he, the moron, has let loose. Nor has the graces to actually take responsibility for his crime there.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

You know that’s not my argument, nice try though.  More trolling.

No. You said it is the function of a queen to produce heirs. That means she has no right to say no to sexual intercourse to her royal husband which means she either has to want to have sex with him or she has to allow him to have sex with her - which is rape when she doesn't want it to happen and only does so when she commanded by him.

Sansa, too, would have been raped if Tyrion had had sex with her. She didn't want to marry the man, and she most certainly never wanted to have sex with him.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Well since you said before that ripping out people’s tongues is no big deal so I will just use the same argument for marital rape.  If Cersei is not a monster for ordering tongues ripped out, Robert is not a monster for taking his kingly rights.  Also he was not a fat drunken slob, he was a warrior-King who just won his throne.  Nice try though.  

That has nothing to do with our argument. Nobody ripped Cersei's tongue out at this point. But she was raped.

24 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Does Cersei ever even mention her mother in POVs?  You are making stuff up to try and defend your girl.  I know it’s devastating that your girl shows such clear malevolence before Robert ever even “started the circle of abuse”.  Care to try again?  

I just pointed out that being cruel to a hideous child which caused the death of your mother isn't exactly something that makes you 'a monster' if you are just 6-7 years old. Children at that age see themselves at the center of the universe. They want what they want and they do not like what they don't like. And it is completely understandable that Cersei doesn't like this wretched creature - especially since that's a society where people like Tyrion do not exactly see eye to eye with people of 'normal size'.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

8 hours ago, Mindrot said:

You are ignoring the fact that the only reason Cersei is Queen is to perform this function.  If she is not going to provide heirs, she should not be Queen.

This line of argument is rather troubling.

You’re confusing two different things here. Something can be legal in a society, and still considered morally wrong. It was legal when Aerys burned Rickard Stark alive, but it was still morally wrong, and every sane character in the books considers it thus. Similarly, marital rape may not be illegal in the 7K, but that doesn’t mean it’s considered to be morally justified. Cersei certainly doesn’t consider it to be fine, and Robert was clearly ashamed of what he did in the morning. Would he have been ashamed if it was considered a fine thing to do by most people? Can you imagine Ned or Ser Barristan considering it to be a good thing?

Marital rape was outlawed in Britain in 1991. Do you think that if it occurred in 1990 everyone would have thought it was ok? Don’t be absurd.

I really hate it that we even have to have this debate to be honest. It doesn’t matter if someone is a woman’s husband, or king, or what society, in whatever period they happen to be in – they have no right to force themselves on anyone.

Cersei didn’t want to marry Robert, she was forced by her father to do it. She didn’t want children with Robert, she was forced to do so. That’s rape.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 1:35 AM, the trees have eyes said:

the Guard at Harrenhall (Door Guard #1 btw!)

Door Guard #1 - his demise is one of the most underrated tragedies of the series

[Free Northman Reborn]

Lord Varys

Seriously. It’s like you are “radicalizing” away from center more and more as time goes by. Now Arya is worse than Cersei? Aha. Ha. Haha.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Lord Varys

Seriously. It’s like you are “radicalizing” away from center more and more as time goes by. Now Arya is worse than Cersei? Aha. Ha. Haha.

Cersei does not kill people. She also does not enjoy killing people. A headsman enjoying his work is a despicable human being, no matter who he kills. And that is Arya, when she killed Dareon and Raff.

She is a Dexter in the making.

4 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Door Guard #1 - his demise is one of the most underrated tragedies of the series

Considering that the man is also a Northman and Roose Bolton at that point still a loyal vassal of 'King Robb', Arya betrayed everything House Stark stands for at this point. She could have revealed who she was at any time. And that might actually have prevented the Red Wedding, considering that Elmar Frey was there to actually do marry his 'princess'.

In relation to Cersei Senelle is clearly less of a crime than Falyse. That was a very ugly betrayal, but one that happened because Cersei was somewhat drunk and not thinking straight - and Qyburn was clearly playing her to get what he wanted.

Cersei makes many mistakes, but that she ends up with sycophants, lickspittles and enablers of her worst desires is, in no small part, the fault of her family. Had Jaime and Kevan not rejected her offers to share the rule with her, she wouldn't have been surrounded by the men and women she is surrounded.

Both Kevan and Jaime do betray King Tommen and their house/dynasty by acting the way they did - they should have helped Cersei to rule in Tommen's name. The situation the boy king is in in ADwD is as much their fault as Cersei's own.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that the man is also a Northman and Roose Bolton at that point still a loyal vassal of 'King Robb', Arya betrayed everything House Stark stands for at this point. She could have revealed who she was at any time. And that might actually have prevented the Red Wedding, considering that Elmar Frey was there to actually do marry his 'princess'.

I don’t really judge a child thrown into the things Arya has had to deal with though. She’s what, 9 at that point? I’m sure me and you wouldn’t make the same decisions she did, but we’re adults and have lived in Westros a long time.

I’m well-known on here for my sympathy for Door Guard #1, however he’s a soldier guarding a gate in a war. Arya, in her opinion (and you can see her logic) needed to get out of there, and he was in the way. If Jaime or Robb had run up to him and filleted him in order to escape, I doubt we’d even be discussing it. Which is interesting when you think about it. When men commit acts of violence in a war, we don’t even blink. When a girl does it, we immediately think “psycho”.

Granted, it’s more disturbing when a child commits an act of violence, particularly murder, but there is a double standard which I find interesting.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

34 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Considering that the man is also a Northman and Roose Bolton at that point still a loyal vassal of 'King Robb', Arya betrayed everything House Stark stands for at this point. She could have revealed who she was at any time. And that might actually have prevented the Red Wedding, considering that Elmar Frey was there to actually do marry his 'princess'.

Another thing - it’s not Arya’s job to stop the Red Wedding, or to help the Northern side win the war (although she occasionally tries). She’s a child in a war zone. Her job is to stay alive and as safe as she can. We can see from her POV that she’s scared, and feels that her best protection is to remain incognito and not trust anyone, which is not a stupid idea at all to be honest.

Given what we find out about the Boltons and the Freys, revealing herself to them would have been a mistake surely? She has no way of knowing that, but she’s canny enough to know that not all Northerners are trustworthy.

[Lord Varys]

@Shouldve Taken The Black

I'm pointing out the double-standard in people justifying Arya's actions when she kills Dareon 'acting as a Stark' in comparison to her taking the Northman's life there. And this man did not expect to be attacked from inside the gates, no? He trusted Arya and was murdered by her.

Arya apparently has the brain to realize that she should better not stay when Hoat takes over the castle, but not the brain to get out of her fake personalities. That is a fault on her part.

We cannot cite 'Arya the child' and then 'Arya the responsible person' when it suits us. In my opinion Arya belongs in a mental institution to get proper treatment before she can return to normal society. I don't think young children should be punished for murder but in our society we would not allow a person who did what she did to run loose on the streets.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei makes many mistakes, but that she ends up with sycophants, lickspittles and enablers of her worst desires is, in no small part, the fault of her family. Had Jaime and Kevan not rejected her offers to share the rule with her, she wouldn't have been surrounded by the men and women she is surrounded.

Both Kevan and Jaime do betray King Tommen and their house/dynasty by acting the way they did - they should have helped Cersei to rule in Tommen's name. The situation the boy king is in in ADwD is as much their fault as Cersei's own.

Kevan and Jaime left because Cersei pushed both of them away. Kevan’s counsel makes her think that the Tyrells have bought him, and she tries to force Jaime into a position to which he is unsuited. Plus, she used Kevan’s son Lancel as a sexual pawn.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He trusted Arya and was murdered by her.

Door Guard #1 always was a trusting fool, eventually he got killed for it.

I actually don’t blame Arya at all for that the more I think about it. She was a child surrounded by war and in constant terror. She survived when many didn’t in part because she was prepared to use violence and trickery. I’ve read of many survivors of conflicts and atrocities say how the best people aren’t always the ones who make it. He was an fully grown armed soldier in a war. She was a child trying to survive.

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm pointing out the double-standard in people justifying Arya's actions when she kills Dareon 'acting as a Stark' in comparison to her taking the Northman's life there.

Well maybe you have a point there, but I don't really think it's up to her to stay true to her Stark roots in that sort of situation.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Arya apparently has the brain to realize that she should better not stay when Hoat takes over the castle, but not the brain to get out of her fake personalities. That is a fault on her part.

I don't really know what that means. The Brave Companions are an obvious danger. Hell I'm surprised that every servant in harrehal didn't skip town when he's put in charge. And it would have been a grave mistake to trust Roose. Arya's smart enough to recognise that he's dangerous and untrustworthy.

Her primary motive is safety, she's trying to get back to her family. I think that’s valid, and as a child, she has the right to use violence to keep herself safe against full grown, armed men.

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We cannot cite 'Arya the child' and then 'Arya the responsible person' when it suits us.

I don't think I am, I think I'm consistent on this. I simply don't think we can judge a child with moral absolutes when they have little to no power in almost all these dangerous situations. They should do what they can to survive.

12 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think young children should be punished for murder but in our society we would not allow a person who did what she did to run loose on the streets.

Absolutely I would, if they had committed such acts in a war zone.

The Dareon thing is more troubling because she straight up murdered someone for not conforming to her own moral code.  

[Lord Varys]

18 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Door Guard #1 always was a trusting fool, eventually he got killed for it.

I actually don’t blame Arya at all for that the more I think about it. She was a child surrounded by war and in constant terror. She survived when many didn’t in part because she was prepared to use violence and trickery. I’ve read of many survivors of conflicts and atrocities say how the best people aren’t always the ones who make it. He was an fully grown armed soldier in a war. She was a child trying to survive.

Well maybe you have a point there, but I don't really think it's up to her to stay true to her Stark roots in that sort of situation.

I don't really know what that means. The Brave Companions are an obvious danger. Hell I'm surprised that every servant in harrehal didn't skip town when he's put in charge. And it would have been a grave mistake to trust Roose. Arya's smart enough to recognise that he's dangerous and untrustworthy.

Her primary motive is safety, she's trying to get back to her family. I think that’s valid, and as a child, she has the right to use violence to keep herself safe against full grown, armed men.

I don't think I am, I think I'm consistent on this. I simply don't think we can judge a child with moral absolutes when they have little to no power in almost all these dangerous situations. They should do what they can to survive.

Absolutely I would, if they had committed such acts in a war zone.

The Dareon thing is more troubling because she straight up murdered someone for not conforming to her own moral code.  

Harrenhal wasn't 'a war zone'. It was held by the men of the king whose sister Arya Stark happens to be. I'd agree with her doing what she did in a battlefield or a place which she believed to a battlefield. Note I never fault(ed) her for the stableboy. That was self-defense in a war zone situation. The same the way she dealt with the Tickler and the others in the inn.

Arya could have prevented hanging out with the Brave Companions by telling Roose Bolton who she was. It would have changed things. By killing one of his men she risked her own life - never mind who she actually was - along with the lives of her friends. Without Nymeria and her pack they would have caught her. And then they wouldn't have listened to anything she said.

And as you point out - Dareon, insurance guy, and even Raff are completely different categories. That's Arya breaking the law in a place where there is neither war nor the shadow of war.

I don't think it is a good idea to expect children like Arya to reintegrate well in a peaceful civil society. War and violence have become their very life, and they are not likely to revert back to 'normal mode' without proper treatment and therapy - which simply isn't there in Westeros. This is a problem with a realistic 'happy ending' for Arya. It would be very difficult for George to make us believe she is going to settle down to become a proper member of a post-war society.

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Kevan and Jaime left because Cersei pushed both of them away. Kevan’s counsel makes her think that the Tyrells have bought him, and she tries to force Jaime into a position to which he is unsuited. Plus, she used Kevan’s son Lancel as a sexual pawn.

Jaime pushes Cersei away because of Tyrion's talk. She does not push away him. She asks him to serve as her Hand, and he rejects the offer in front of others.

Kevan insults Cersei in private but he most definitely crosses too many lines there. He would have never dared to talk to his brother or nephew in that manner, and Cersei and he both know that. Cersei is not incompetent, she shows that in AGoT and ACoK, and she could have done good work if she had been properly supported by her family.

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Both Kevan and Jaime do betray King Tommen and their house/dynasty by acting the way they did - they should have helped Cersei to rule in Tommen's name.

Both Kevan and Jaime recognized Cersei was not fit to rule and see the damage Cersei is doing to her (and their) House.  She sends Jaime away and leaves Kevan with no part to play whatsoever so he leaves too.  Hard to see why they should be her stooges given how irresponsible she has become and how little heed she pays to their counsel.

Look, this thread was about Sansa, how about you stop threadjacking?