Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

[Varysblackfyre321]

1 hour ago, zandru said:

One of the things that really annoyed me was the incident during the trip south to King's Landing, when the Band of Heroes (Barristan, Renly, etc) met the King's party. Sansa is unnerved by the sight of Illyn Payne, stumbles backward into the arms of the Hound, who tries to reassure her, and when she sees his face, screams and runs off to hug her wolf pup. Okay. 

Yeah. Would you expect anything more from a 11 year old girl? The hound is a scary son of bitch, 

 

1 hour ago, zandru said:

But then Sansa goes over and apologizes to Payne, who likely hasn't noticed a thing. Never a word, nor a thought for the poor Hound, who she wrenched away from in fear and disgust. Kiss up, kick down.

Payne who is as much a lackey to House Lannister as Sandor. They’re both equal it seems in terms of nobility. 

Shes not kicking down by apologizing to Payne without apologizing to the hound. 

If she was only  rude, dismissive, or rude to her inferiors, she would not have risked a beating just to protect a drunken hedgeknight peasant.

And I have to say overall Sansa treated Sandor than what could be reasonably expected for a girl of her upbringing in the first book; she actually does offer genuine sympathy to the man after recounting his childhood trauma, and doesn’t consider bringing up his conduct when escorting back to her father; which really if she did the man could face sever reprisal, Ned Stark would be enraged, that this brute was coarse and rough with his daughter.

[alienarea]

On 10/18/2018 at 1:49 AM, Mordred said:

Sansa the airhead is the most close to the average, modern teenager.

This.

[Stuart Littlefinger]

I actually prefer reading Sansa to Bran and even Arya

But maybe that's more based on the characters around her that she is interacting with

[Bowen Marsh]

On 10/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why do all hate Sansa Stark she's just a little girl?

I just do.  It's too long to explain here.  I don't think she's important enough to spend to invest too much time in debating.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

5 hours ago, Stuart Littlefinger said:

But maybe that's more based on the characters around her that she is interacting with

Yup. Things are going to get very interesting in the Vale and she is the only POV character there so far. So even if someone doesn't like Sansa they'd still will probably enjoy her chapters in the next book. Getting Baelish's response to (f)Aegon and how it will affect his plans alone will be worth it, IMHO. Plus we'll get to see the rise of the winged-knight Strong Robin and the fall of Harry the arse.

[Lollygag]

7 hours ago, Bowen Marsh said:

I just do.  It's too long to explain here.  I don't think she's important enough to spend to invest too much time in debating.  

So why would GRRM be torturing himself in spending so much time on unimportant POVs? And why are you reading books written by such an idiotically terrible writer?

[Lollygag]

On 10/17/2018 at 7:49 PM, Mordred said:

 Sansa the airhead is the most close to the average, modern teenager.  

AGOT Arya I

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

 

She even crushes on a boy band member  prince who looks like a girl.

Her choices with Joff make more sense if you think of him as Westeros' Justin Bieber or whoever the current girly-looking heartthrob is these days.

[Angel Eyes]

2 hours ago, Lollygag said:

AGOT Arya I

 

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

 

 

 

She even crushes on a boy band member  prince who looks like a girl.

Her choices with Joff make more sense if you think of him as Westeros' Justin Bieber or whoever the current girly-looking heartthrob is these days.

 

 

You know, I think Joffrey and Justin Bieber have been directly compared somewhere...

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

AGOT Arya I

 

"Jon says he looks like a girl," Arya said.

 

 

 

She even crushes on a boy band member  prince who looks like a girl.

Her choices with Joff make more sense if you think of him as Westeros' Justin Bieber or whoever the current girly-looking heartthrob is these days.

 

 

Jon crushes on Satin who also looks like a girl.

If anyones Bieberish itd be pretty singer boy Marillion, whom Sansa was certainly not crushing on

[the trees have eyes]

20 hours ago, zandru said:

As I read it, Sansa is "obedient and well-behaved" to her superiors, but seems dismissive, rude, or just plain not noticing her inferiors. (Arya counted among them.) Kiss up, kick down. This appears to be proper, even desireable behavior for a southron lady, but sticks in the craw of some of us 21st c folks. Clearly, not everyone!

I'm still not seeing a brat though.  Where does she mistreat, demean or generally scorn those of lower status?  There's not a single kick down I can think of.  Or any rudeness?  Sansa?  Rude?!  Come on.   All I'm seeing is a bit of sibling rivalry with Arya.  I feel that what is sticking in your craw is her awareness that this is not a classless society and she genuinely is at the apex of the social pyramid.  "Courtesy is a lady's armour" is what she has been taught and how she behaves.  A spoiled brat thinks and behaves very differently.

20 hours ago, zandru said:

One of the things that really annoyed me was the incident during the trip south to King's Landing, when the Band of Heroes (Barristan, Renly, etc) met the King's party. Sansa is unnerved by the sight of Illyn Payne, stumbles backward into the arms of the Hound, who tries to reassure her, and when she sees his face, screams and runs off to hug her wolf pup. Okay. But then Sansa goes over and apologizes to Payne, who likely hasn't noticed a thing. Never a word, nor a thought for the poor Hound, who she wrenched away from in fear and disgust. Kiss up, kick down.

She is eleven years old.  Eleven.  Can you please bear that in mind before faulting her for not handling an awkward situation with complete confidence and aplomb like a socially accomplished adult?

She is on her own among strangers and she is uncomfortable, indeed frightened and, courtesy being a lady's armour, attempts to recover the situation by not giving offence and being sweet and polite.  Joffrey sends the Hound away, not her and she does indeed apologize to Payne who is technically her inferior so where is the kick?  She's eleven, for crying out loud, I think she did as well as could be expected of her (Payne being tongueless and the Hound is a scary enough combo for adults let alone 11 year old girls), and far from being a spoiled brat she tries to be a model of charm and grace.

Seems your issue is with the class system and the idea of her being a lady and the privilege that entails. 

[Lollygag]

3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon crushes on Satin who also looks like a girl.

If anyones Bieberish itd be pretty singer boy Marillion, whom Sansa was certainly not crushing on 

My point was that crushing on girly looking boys is common in little girls and goes into not long after puberty (usually). Most outgrow this and we see it reflected in the books. And after Joff had her beaten constantly, the pretty boy thing didn't work so well with her anymore.

Sansa was older and disillusioned with pretty boys and singers by the time she met Marillion and he tried to get with her by telling her that she should sleep with him because bastards sleep around. We soon see her fantasizing about the Hound. So no. She wouldn't be into him at this point.

Were you the same at 13 as you were at 11? Did your experiences also not change you between those times? Be careful about transferring qualities from a character at very different points in the series.

[zandru]

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm still not seeing a brat though. 

When did I use the term "brat"? It was from a previous post, which you quoted. I made a point of NOT using it.

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I feel that what is sticking in your craw is her awareness that this is not a classless society and she genuinely is at the apex of the social pyramid. 

Oh, definitely. Sansa fully accepts the social classes and her elevated position without thought. It may be "typical" of the time and of the story - but as a somewhat more modern reader, I'm not required to do so.

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

She is eleven years old.  Eleven.  Can you please bear that in mind before faulting her ...

I notice Sansa does pretty well with the Exalted Heroes, in spite of being so "frightened", reciting their rolls of honor etc etc. Then, as you noted, apologizing prettily to Payne. Sansa has innumerable opportunities thereafter to say a quiet word or two to Sandor, since he's with Joffrey basically all the time, but apparently doesn't. Seems funny she'd forget something that traumatic for her. This stuff gets "encoded in the hippocampus", ya know.

4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Seems your issue is with the class system

Yep. And there are those, like Ned and his other children, who don't simply ignore and write off "the help." Remember, both Robb and Jon recalled Ned's admonition that a good leader has to know his men. Each of them, as individuals. Sansa apparently doesn't even know the names of the women who bathe and clothe her every day. At least, she's never mentioned them in her points-of-view.

[Hugorfonics]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

My point was that crushing on girly looking boys is common in little girls and goes into not long after puberty (usually). Most outgrow this and we see it reflected in the books. And after Joff had her beaten constantly, the pretty boy thing didn't work so well with her anymore.

I was mainly making a joke about Jon making fun of Sansa for liking a boy that looks like a girl.

Around Loras she acts very crushy too, though there was the whole rose thing.

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Sansa was older and disillusioned with pretty boys and singers by the time she met Marillion and he tried to get with her by telling her that she should sleep with him because bastards sleep around. We soon see her fantasizing about the Hound. So no. She wouldn't be into him at this point.

Were you the same at 13 as you were at 11? Did your experiences also not change you between those times? Be careful about transferring qualities from a character at very different points in the series.

I don't see Sansa ever giving it up to Marillion, shes always been shy and hes always been a creep.

Shes changing, for sure

5 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I'm still not seeing a brat though.  Where does she mistreat, demean or generally scorn those of lower status?  There's not a single kick down I can think of.  Or any rudeness?  Sansa?  Rude?!  Come on.   All I'm seeing is a bit of sibling rivalry with Arya.  I feel that what is sticking in your craw is her awareness that this is not a classless society and she genuinely is at the apex of the social pyramid.  "Courtesy is a lady's armour" is what she has been taught and how she behaves.  A spoiled brat thinks and behaves very differently.

Shes confused that Dontos isnt attractive and is revolted that Alyane is a basterd. 

Shes a good person, just a bit of a snob

24 minutes ago, zandru said:

Yep. And there are those, like Ned and his other children, who don't simply ignore and write off "the help." Remember, both Robb and Jon recalled Ned's admonition that a good leader has to know his men. Each of them, as individuals. Sansa apparently doesn't even know the names of the women who bathe and clothe her every day. At least, she's never mentioned them in her points-of-view.

Well Robb and Jons help was the reason they died, so im not sure thats the best example. Also that wasnt a fault of Sansa, they were spying on her

 

She heard the door open as her maids brought the hot water for her bath. They were both new to her service; Tyrion said the women who'd tended to her previously had all been Cersei's spies, just as Sansa had always suspected

[Lollygag]

45 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I was mainly making a joke about Jon making fun of Sansa for liking a boy that looks like a girl.

Around Loras she acts very crushy too, though there was the whole rose thing.

I don't see Sansa ever giving it up to Marillion, shes always been shy and hes always been a creep.

Shes changing, for sure

 

Oh sorry! That went completely over my head.

Yeah, it's interesting that after the Trident incident, Joff doesn't really measure up and she replaces Joff with Loras for a romantic hero like in the songs.

[Hugorfonics]

35 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Oh sorry! That went completely over my head.

Yeah, it's interesting that after the Trident incident, Joff doesn't really measure up and she replaces Joff with Loras for a romantic hero like in the songs.

Lol no problem

Im not sure about that. This is pretty much right after Sansa gets the rose (a little bit of Petyr being hysterically creepy in between) 

 

 

When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion's heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal. Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table.

Instead Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs, and said, "Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady."

"He was too kind," she demurred, trying to remain modest and calm, though her heart was singing.

 

 

Ser Loras is a literal shining white knight who romanticized the hell out of Sansa but shes still clearly in love with Joff. Only him killing her father changed those feelings.

I was referring to asos though, even after Dontos warned Sansa about Tyrell she was still crushing on Loras. Not a great politcal move but understandable

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, zandru said:

When did I use the term "brat"? It was from a previous post, which you quoted. I made a point of NOT using it.

Ok, we agree that she is not a spoiled brat.  Good enough for me.

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Oh, definitely. Sansa fully accepts the social classes and her elevated position without thought. It may be "typical" of the time and of the story - but as a somewhat more modern reader, I'm not required to do so.

No, of course not but it does help to understand her experience and her perspective.  "Without thought".  I'm not sure how much she should be held at fault for not questioning this at 11.  Would you be happier if she crushed on a stable boy and told Ned she wanted to marry him for true love rather than the Crown Prince?  And the Sansa of ASOS on has learned a lot of very different lessons.  I do understand why people don't like her in AGOT (I didn't) but it does wear a little thin if we judge her as an adult or fail to recognise how her experiences change her.

4 hours ago, zandru said:

I notice Sansa does pretty well with the Exalted Heroes, in spite of being so "frightened", reciting their rolls of honor etc etc. Then, as you noted, apologizing prettily to Payne. Sansa has innumerable opportunities thereafter to say a quiet word or two to Sandor, since he's with Joffrey basically all the time, but apparently doesn't. Seems funny she'd forget something that traumatic for her. This stuff gets "encoded in the hippocampus", ya know.

I'm not sure what the issue is here tbh.  Do you agree she was frightened and sort refuge with Lady until she was helped out by Cersei telling Joffrey to step in and reassure her?  Payne and Renly are the newcomers, The Hound has been with the King's Party since his arrival at WF, it seems natural that she should worry about offending or embarrassing herself in front of important strangers.  They are who she is being introduced to, not the Crown Prince's bodyguard.  Is it so bad that the 11 year old didn't have the social skills and confidence to handle the scary burned man with the sensitively and grace you feel she should? 

She got a momentary fright and takes a moment to recover her poise, I'm not sure what her 11 year old self should be seeking out a fierce adult male to apologize for.  Plenty of adults wouldn't.  

4 hours ago, zandru said:

Yep. And there are those, like Ned and his other children, who don't simply ignore and write off "the help." Remember, both Robb and Jon recalled Ned's admonition that a good leader has to know his men. Each of them, as individuals. Sansa apparently doesn't even know the names of the women who bathe and clothe her every day. At least, she's never mentioned them in her points-of-view.

Sansa and Arya are undoubtedly different.  You may approve more of Arya by applying a 21st reader's take on the social system but this makes Arya atypical.  You won't find Myrcella or Margaey Tyrell playing at swords with the butcher's boy.  Neither Arya or Sansa is being taught to lead in the way Robb and Jon and in due course Bran are, the girls are being taught how to run a household not to mingle with and befriend the servants as if they were equals.  

Sansa's friend is Jeyne, Arya's is Jon and then Mycah & Syrio act as a substitute for Jon.  It's not a damning indictment of Sansa, she has her friendship (and her betrothal) while Arya is forced to adapt.  And once Ned's Household is slaughtered everyone around her is an enemy and the servants are regularly changed to prevent any from forming an attachment to her.  Are you really basing a judgment on Sansa on how she interacts with Cersei's maids?

[the trees have eyes]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Shes confused that Dontos isnt attractive and is revolted that Alyane is a basterd. 

Shes a good person, just a bit of a snob

You mean Dontos does not conform to her childish ideal of what a knight should be?  Undoubtedly not.  I mean he turns up dead drunk and wearing no trousers or anything else south of his belt for that matter.  He does not conform to my expectation of a knight either!  He does make a rather pathetic spectacle.  And yet she helps him.

Bastardy is a huge deal in this society.  Being asked to pretend to be one and risk being treated with a degree of contempt or roughness because of it (Marillion springs to mind) is a big deal.  It is shameful in her eyes but this does not make her any different to any other highborn girl.

Eh, I guess she could be described as a snob but to me that is a term that implies that someone thinks they are better than other people or acts like it when in reality our society does not distinguish between people based on birth or wealth any more (bear with me on that point!).  It's a pejorative term and a valid criticism of someone's actions or attitude.  But in a feudal society people genuinely believe that hierarchy is natural and right and that rulers are superiors not first among equals.

Her birth entitles her to status and privilege that she wears with a degree of aloofness that Arya does not.  She seems a little superficial and empty-headed and is unaware (or in denial) of some unpleasant things around her; she is living her dream and that makes her less self-reflecting or prepared to question things or to look too closely at people to realize the dream is a sham.  I really don't know how different that makes her to other sheltered 11 year old girls who seem to have all their hopes and fantasies about to come true and I'm not sure it makes her a snob - she seems too polite or courteous to look down on or disparage those around her.  And it all changes pretty fast.

[Lollygag]

4 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Lol no problem

Im not sure about that. This is pretty much right after Sansa gets the rose (a little bit of Petyr being hysterically creepy in between) 

 

 

When Prince Joffrey seated himself to her right, she felt her throat tighten. He had not spoken a word to her since the awful thing had happened, and she had not dared to speak to him. At first she thought she hated him for what they'd done to Lady, but after Sansa had wept her eyes dry, she told herself that it had not been Joffrey's doing, not truly. The queen had done it; she was the one to hate, her and Arya. Nothing bad would have happened except for Arya.

She could not hate Joffrey tonight. He was too beautiful to hate. He wore a deep blue doublet studded with a double row of golden lion's heads, and around his brow a slim coronet made of gold and sapphires. His hair was as bright as the metal. Sansa looked at him and trembled, afraid that he might ignore her or, worse, turn hateful again and send her weeping from the table.

Instead Joffrey smiled and kissed her hand, handsome and gallant as any prince in the songs, and said, "Ser Loras has a keen eye for beauty, sweet lady."

"He was too kind," she demurred, trying to remain modest and calm, though her heart was singing.

 

 

Ser Loras is a literal shining white knight who romanticized the hell out of Sansa but shes still clearly in love with Joff. Only him killing her father changed those feelings.

I was referring to asos though, even after Dontos warned Sansa about Tyrell she was still crushing on Loras. Not a great politcal move but understandable

Yeah, she was still into Joff, but she was doing some serious mental gymnastics to force him back into that romantic hero role and it wasn't really working. Hence Loras...

[lavthelonewolf]

I don’t. I used to dislike her in GOt,but started liking her after that. Amazing character arc. 

[Corvo the Crow]

I ate her because she was such a little morsel. She was bitter about it though, possibly from all those lemon cakes she stuffs herself with.