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Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

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9 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

1) How could she know in which way will Jaqen kill him?

She didn't know. But she wanted to kill him - which was also completely unjustified. There is a reason why usually nobody talks about this arranged murder of hers.

9 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

2) What is bad about Weasel soup? Amory's soldiers getting killed by Bloody Mummers? That would happen without her.

I know. The point is that arranging this indicates she has no problem killing people. Which is part of being a murderer.

9 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

3) How would you deal with a Bolton man if you were in her place?

I'd have stayed at Harrenhal or I'd have found a way to get out of there without killing someone.

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On 10/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why do all hate Sansa Stark she's just a little girl?

Heya ya got four pages.

On 10/18/2018 at 3:38 AM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

We're meant to dislike Sansa at the beginning of the series.

I gotta agree with that statement.

On 10/17/2018 at 10:27 PM, White Ravens said:

Why do you create threads with click-bait titles and then walk away without participating in them?

Because that is what @manchester_babe does.

 

There came a time in the story that I wanted the little loose lip girl to change. She didn't. She started out 11 years of age. Now she is about 13 years of age. I even rooted for Sansa to be involved in having LF tossed out the moon door.

As to the original question as referenced below

On 10/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, manchester_babe said:

Why do all hate Sansa Stark she's just a little girl?

I'm thinking perhaps someone might wanna expand their vocabulary. Let's look at a few synonyms:    hatred, loathing, detestation, dislike, distaste, abhorrence, abomination, execration, aversion, hostility, enmity, animosity, antipathy, revulsion, disgust, contempt.

Yeah, Sansa was a little girl. Sansa wasn't given the choice who she would marry.  King Bob and Eddard agreed that in the future when the two children became of age they could marry.

Sansa threw her family under the bus.  Now, while she is in hiding for a crime she did not commit or participate in she is doing LF's will. Be that placating or not.

Sansa is dependent on LF.  Sansa lied about Lysa's death.  Sansa is wanted by the IT in connection to the death of Kng Joff.  Book Sansa and screen Sansa are two different characters.

Why do I dislike the Sansa character as written by martin?  Because, Sansa with all her flaws was me at the age of eleven ---- self centered, selfish and whinny.

 

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12 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Sansa threw her family under the bus.

It's a point of view. Here's another one:

Ned threw his family under the bus.

The first version is much weaker, but you hear it fifty times more often. Similarly, Cat is more often blamed than Tywin for the war of 5 kings.

That's what I have a problem with. If there was an Artificial Intelligence educated on data from this forum, that AI would be significantly gender biased. (Maybe one day, someone will be able to do the experiment.) Is the fault in the books, or in us, collectively?

This particular thread is well balanced, which is good, because I was all ready to junk asoiaf and return to Lord of the Rings and not be bothered by female characters at all. I mean what's the point of giving lots of page time to well-crafted female characters if they're only going to be perceived as stupid evil trolls anyway?

Edited by Springwatch
ugly/stupid

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10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is that arranging this indicates she has no problem killing people. Which is part of being a murderer.

She wanted to free her brother's men and guards stood in her way. Besides, i think  she expected for only few enemy's soldiers to be killed during prison break, not almost every Lorch's man.

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4 hours ago, Kandrax said:

She wanted to free her brother's men and guards stood in her way. Besides, i think  she expected for only few enemy's soldiers to be killed during prison break, not almost every Lorch's man.

So you think the Northmen would have just walked out of Harrenhal?

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20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't care what Arya suffered through, I just say she behaves like a psycho-killer. And that's how she behaves. Weese has just beaten her up. So what? This is a hard world. He didn't deserve to die for that, no? Neither did a considerable number of Arya's later killings, especially the Northman she killed, Dareon, and insurance guy. And while Raff might be deserving to die Arya crossed the line to psychopathic serial killer completely when she killed him the way she did.

You don’t care what Arya went through, it gives zero context to why she kills who she does.  While you care supremely about what Cersei suffered through and use it as an excuse for her behavior at every possible turn.  Is your argument here that I should hate Arya as much as Cersei because they are both psycho killers? 

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Robert fucks who he wants since he knows what to do with his cock. He didn't need Cersei to start this behavior. He wasn't faithful to her, never intended to be, and Lyanna expected him not to be faithful to her, either.

Their's is a so-called arranged marriage. They do not love each other and they never pretended to. Cersei fucked Jaime and Robert fucked countless women. But it is clear that Cersei had considered stopping the Jaime thing and stick to her royal husband if he hadn't been the drunken fool he was. Robert Baratheon had no intention whatsoever to remain faithful to the most beautiful woman of his generation.

So Robert is a whore monger, how many ‘unfaithful sexual escapades’ equal one ‘hand maiden to Qyburn’ on a moral scale?  Even with all his whoring Roberts evil does not equal that one event from your girl Cersei.   Also in regards to their wedding night, as before she had fucked her brother that day already, clearly she was willing to give this marriage a chance...This was not even drunken slob Robert.  THis was (drunken) Warrior-King robert and because he said the wrong name, he gets a life time of hatred and cuckholded marriage?  Cersei clearly expects much from her husband after he gave her a fucking Kingdom.  That’s your girl Cersei.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't have to play the father to my nieces and nephew to feel emotionally close to them. Do you? They are my nieces and nephew. And Jaime Lannister was around his children/niece/nephews never mind what Cersei wanted him to do. He was their uncle and one of the Kingsguard. He was around them the entire time. Tyrion likes Cersei's children and he didn't even live permanently at court.

If you don't form an attachment to your own children under such circumstances then something is VERY WRONG with the way you process emotions.

Such a strong condemnation for a guy that has been in the Kingsguard since he was 17.  Again he was specifically told by Cersei to stay away from the kids to reduce suspicion, so that’s HER FAULT, not Jaimes.  Your girl.  

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

She had Tywin Lannister as a father and lost her mother at very early age. On the emotional level she didn't have a fairy-tale childhood.

Oh man, this HAS to be a troll quote:. Cersei thought of herself as a princess-to-be, she grew up thinking she was going to marry the Dragonknight, one of the most handsome, intelligent and honorable of the knights of her realm.  Tywin Lannister was one of the most feared and respected men in the 7k, which means his eldest daughter will be treated with respect and courtesy everywhere she goes, especially in Casterly Rock.  She does actually have a fairy tale life, certainly as fairy tale as it gets in Westeros.  Because her mother died early in her life (how many 10s of thousands of other women are dealing with this exact same thing in Westeros?  Such a trial for poor Cersei and all her privilege.)  Jaime also suffered from this loss, but he gets not exoneration for his deeds, only your girl Cersei.  On an emotional level she is evil and sadistic, which cannot be a fairly tale, you are correct there.  

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If you don't understand why it is shitty to be raped - and Cersei was raped by Robert whenever they had sex - by your husband then you should stay out of this discussion.

First off, the idea that the Queen is not fucking the King would be anethema to the people of 7k.  Robert could easily make it a public issue and ban Cersei to the Maiden’s Tower for life if that’s how she wants to play right?  He is KING, he can do whatever he wants.  Speaking of doing whatever he wants, if Robert was so evil why didn’t he just rape Cersei every night?  Who was going to stop him?  Let me ask you, what is stopping him besides his nature NOT TO RAPE?  He needs a heir, multiple children, how else is he going to accomplish this without having sex with Cersei?  Yes he forces himself on her VERY RARELY, which they both admit to.  Such a vile and evil man?  Or is his wife a sadistic incestuous bitch who is cuckholding him?  Your girl Cersei.

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei may have killed Melara - or she may have allowed her to die. It is not clear at this point whether she was pushed in the well by Cersei or not. But this and of itself doesn't make Cersei a serial killer - like Arya, say.

Maybe she just ordered her death?  Who is to say, but looking at everything else we know about Cersei, and about how that memory comes back to her, seems to indicate that she killed her for crushing on Jaime.  It indicates that she is a monster and cares nothing for others, even her ‘best’ friends.  

20 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I didn't say this is a good thing, I just pointed out that Cersei herself understands what this means and actually feels that this is very wrong on an emotional level. That is not the behavior of a monster or psychopath. At least not one at the end of the spectrum. Cersei has her issues. But she still loves Jaime and her children. That's not pretend. And Jaime is not an extension of herself or any such crap - he is her twin, the person she was closest since before her birth. They also have the romantic/sexual aspect of their love but they are also twins. Cersei very much fears for the lives of Jaime and her children. 

Tyrion is a monster. He looks like it, and he killed Cersei's mother. She lost her mother and got a hideous, twisted thing for a brother. I don't blame her for not liking this creature. Especially as a child. I cannot contemplate what I would have done if I had lost my mother in exchange for a sibling I did not want. Do you? In a world that has not yet overcome making executions a public festival and still makes fulls and clowns out of creatures like Tyrion, selling them to a circus.

When the dornishmen come to visit and she almost twists Tyrion’s dick off, they say VERY clearly that Tyrion is not a monster, smaller limbs perhaps but nothing like what they are led to believe.  So no Tyrion was not a monster, he was a helpless infant that could do nothing to defend himself, and what does your girl do?  The true monster in the room was made very clear.  Would you like to try again?

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19 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Why do I dislike the Sansa character as written by martin?  Because, Sansa with all her flaws was me at the age of eleven ---- self centered, selfish and whinny.

This is a good catch, and I think applies to a number of readers. Sansa is just so ... ordinary. Not extraordinary in any way, other than appearance, and lots of young girls look really good at that age. (It doesn't always last.) Sansa doesn't match the heroism of the rest of the Starks. Her first and only thoughts seem to be saving her own skin; even her celebrated "rescue" of Ser Dontos succeeded only because the Hound pulled her chestnuts out of the fire - Sansa was going to back off to avoid Joffrey's wrath, until the Hound spoke up, in what sounded like a throwaway remark "What a man does on his nameday...". Sansa did not even notice she was being rescued - she concluded that she herself, genius that she was, had conveniently remembered this "old saying."

First book Sansa is a big disappointment in how she acts like a lot of us did at that age. There are many who see major character developments in the subsequent chapters, and have seized upon the pre-released "Winds of Winter" chapter to argue that she has now become A Player. But not everyone agrees. I personally read that chapter as Littlefinger as shaping her into a more capable pawn.

Spoiler

So now Sansa's becoming an accomplished flirt! Can the in-bed skills be far behind? We all know Baelish's primary line of business in King's Landing. Will he take Sansa for a "test drive" himself? Et cetera; let's not get too gross here.

I guess many would admire this development, but I don't - it may be just a matter of taste. Remember, this is how Queen Cersei has been operating.

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11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

You don’t care what Arya went through, it gives zero context to why she kills who she does.  While you care supremely about what Cersei suffered through and use it as an excuse for her behavior at every possible turn.  Is your argument here that I should hate Arya as much as Cersei because they are both psycho killers?

Just to be clear, Cersei is a vapid, cruel, and at times pretty stupid person. She is full of herself and has a lot of narcissistic tendencies, and I really don't like her all that much.

But I still think she is a better person than Arya the serial-killer. Cersei never killed people with her own hands (aside from, perhaps, Melara), Cersei doesn't consider murder a solution to all her problems (like Arya), and Cersei actually has a reason behind most of her cruel acts that do not completely revolve around her own person - she also includes her children, her twin-brother/lover, and her overall family in all that. 

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

So Robert is a whore monger, how many ‘unfaithful sexual escapades’ equal one ‘hand maiden to Qyburn’ on a moral scale?

I don't think the Queen Regent has to apologize to you or anyone if she sentences a traitor to die. And yes, Senelle was a traitor considering that she worked as informer for Margaery Tyrell.

Cersei can fuck Jaime all day if Robert does the same with his whores. And that's what he did.

By the way - you do recall that Dany fucked Daario a good last time on the day of her wedding, too, no? She ended their relationship the moment she wed Hizdahr. Who is to say Cersei didn't originally intend to do that, too? After all, cuckolding the king is high treason and can cause a lot of problems.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Even with all his whoring Roberts evil does not equal that one event from your girl Cersei.   Also in regards to their wedding night, as before she had fucked her brother that day already, clearly she was willing to give this marriage a chance...This was not even drunken slob Robert.  THis was (drunken) Warrior-King robert and because he said the wrong name, he gets a life time of hatred and cuckholded marriage?  Cersei clearly expects much from her husband after he gave her a fucking Kingdom.  That’s your girl Cersei.

I don't blame Cersei for wanting her husband to be fuck only her, his lawful wife. If you marry someone you should stick to your spouse, even more so in a world like Westeros.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Such a strong condemnation for a guy that has been in the Kingsguard since he was 17.  Again he was specifically told by Cersei to stay away from the kids to reduce suspicion, so that’s HER FAULT, not Jaimes.  Your girl.  

But he didn't stay away. In Winterfell Cersei and the children break their fast with Jaime. This doesn't appear to be a rare or exceptional event.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Oh man, this HAS to be a troll quote:. Cersei thought of herself as a princess-to-be, she grew up thinking she was going to marry the Dragonknight, one of the most handsome, intelligent and honorable of the knights of her realm.  Tywin Lannister was one of the most feared and respected men in the 7k, which means his eldest daughter will be treated with respect and courtesy everywhere she goes, especially in Casterly Rock.  She does actually have a fairy tale life, certainly as fairy tale as it gets in Westeros.  Because her mother died early in her life (how many 10s of thousands of other women are dealing with this exact same thing in Westeros?  Such a trial for poor Cersei and all her privilege.)  Jaime also suffered from this loss, but he gets not exoneration for his deeds, only your girl Cersei.  On an emotional level she is evil and sadistic, which cannot be a fairly tale, you are correct there.  

Cersei lived a privileged life but her parents were both absent. Joanna died and Tywin was in KL - and not exactly emotionally accessible or a caring father. And the idea that wealth and privilege results in emotionally stable, nice children isn't a given.

Tyrion grew up in wealth and privilege, too, and he is pretty much as fucked-up as Cersei - both emotionally and, even more so, in his criminal record.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

First off, the idea that the Queen is not fucking the King would be anethema to the people of 7k.  Robert could easily make it a public issue and ban Cersei to the Maiden’s Tower for life if that’s how she wants to play right?  He is KING, he can do whatever he wants.  Speaking of doing whatever he wants, if Robert was so evil why didn’t he just rape Cersei every night?  Who was going to stop him?  Let me ask you, what is stopping him besides his nature NOT TO RAPE?  He needs a heir, multiple children, how else is he going to accomplish this without having sex with Cersei?  Yes he forces himself on her VERY RARELY, which they both admit to.  Such a vile and evil man?  Or is his wife a sadistic incestuous bitch who is cuckholding him?  Your girl Cersei.

I'm not getting any argument here that Cersei was not raped by Robert. Because there is no. That marital rape is no crime in Westeros - and that nobody would care if it was if the king does it - has nothing to do with the effect this kind of sexual abuse has on the victim.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Maybe she just ordered her death?  Who is to say, but looking at everything else we know about Cersei, and about how that memory comes back to her, seems to indicate that she killed her for crushing on Jaime.  It indicates that she is a monster and cares nothing for others, even her ‘best’ friends.

This was a rather special situation. Cersei just heard that her life is going to be a nightmare. And then Melara comes up with a solution for that problem. This wasn't Cersei's average day.

11 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

When the dornishmen come to visit and she almost twists Tyrion’s dick off, they say VERY clearly that Tyrion is not a monster, smaller limbs perhaps but nothing like what they are led to believe.  So no Tyrion was not a monster, he was a helpless infant that could do nothing to defend himself, and what does your girl do?  The true monster in the room was made very clear.  Would you like to try again?

He is still a dwarf and ugly and he killed her mother. This is a 6-7-year-old we are talking about here. Children all believe the world revolves around themselves, they do not necessarily like the idea that they get some sibling they have to share things with, and if those siblings cause the deaths of their mother this can cast a very large shadow. We don't get that all that often in our day and age, but if I think my little brother (the one who was born when I was seven years old) had killed my mother who I love very much to this day I don't think I'd have loved my little brother as much as I do today.

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Not that anyone asked, but I think Sansa is still morally a better person than Cersei. Her arc seems to be giving her too many Cersei-like qualities, and I hope Sansa doesn't continue down this road. I also believe Arya is morally better than Sansa, contrary to some.

Arya has many times fought for her friends, for the weak, for the abused. Arya has put her own life at risk many times. She's not some kind of stone-cold killer, if you actually read the books. She's constantly chewing over whether or not she did the right thing, and has decided her mother would never accept her if she knew. Arya had to be convinced, over the course of several days, that there was adequate reason to assassinate the old insurance fraudster before she took action, and her solution - poisoning him with a gold coin - was an ironic way for him to go, and had no element of "bloodthirstiness."

For that matter, and a change of subject, Tyrion is constantly thinking of how he killed his father, how he killed Shae, wondering what's become of Tysha. He keeps justifying it to himself, as if he can't justify it to himself. His breakup with his brother Jaime, his only true friend, remains a constant open wound. I'm looking forward to seeing how his arc unfolds. He hit bottom and is on his way back up - I hope.

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3 hours ago, zandru said:

This is a good catch, and I think applies to a number of readers. Sansa is just so ... ordinary. Not extraordinary in any way, other than appearance, and lots of young girls look really good at that age. (It doesn't always last.) Sansa doesn't match the heroism of the rest of the Starks.

List the times it’s been shown Robb, or Brand(Ned’s brother), Rickard(Ned’s father) protecting a complete stranger at the immediate risk for themselves for no for other reason the stranger needed help? Even if it The the most likely to come from their attempts at aid was sever pain?  Truth be told theres only a few who did something anything  more heroic or even as heroic in the ACOK-one of those those would be Arya’s attempt to sacrifice herself for the recruits for the brotherhood she was with.

 

3 hours ago, zandru said:

Her first and only thoughts seem to be saving her own skin; even her celebrated "rescue" of Ser Dontos succeeded only because the Hound pulled her chestnuts out of the fire - Sansa was going to back off to avoid Joffrey's wrath, until the Hound spoke up, in what sounded like a throwaway remark "What a man does on his nameday...". Sansa did not even notice she was being rescued - she concluded that she herself, genius that she was, had conveniently remembered this "old saying."

No, she honestly wonders if the hound is merely lying to back her up.

A Clash of Kings - Sansa I

Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this.
"The girl speaks truly," the Hound rasped. "What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year." His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she'd said, desperate to avoid punishment.

She did not think it was genius move for her to actually press Joffery on this particular issue for all she knew he could have her beaten or even killed along with Donthos for saying he can’t kill the drunk knight. And you forget that Joffery still wanted Donthos killed the day after his name day-Sansa still pushed further by saying he should be made a fool that would entertain him daily rather than a corpse-her being a 11 year old girl who was pampered for most of her, the risk she was taking was extrodinary, I do not imagine most would at that age with Sansa’s  stick their neck out like that just for a stranger, and I will not discount the magnitude of her action just because she had the fortune of the hand speaking up in her defense.

And there was no backing down after she brought up the name day stuff-Joffery would beat her if she thought she was lying about this-the hand made her attempt to save Donthos successful but the attempt for to actually attempt this in the first place is more than you can reasonably expect an eleven year old girl to do in tgis situation.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

 

For that matter, and a change of subject, Tyrion is constantly thinking of how he killed his father, how he killed Shae, wondering what's become of Tysha. He keeps justifying it to himself, as if he can't justify it to himself. His breakup with his brother Jaime, his only true friend, remains a constant open wound. I'm looking forward to seeing how his arc unfolds. He hit bottom and is on his way back up - I hope.

Meh, he’s a rapist and murderer, who would  cause his own family further death and  misery because he was convicted of a crime that all evidence  showed he committed, and his very actions point to him being willing to do(seriously he publicly beat Joffery, and threatened to castrate him-small wonder people didn’t buy his claims of innocence) and his sister to which honestly he’s wronged more so than him.  I do not think he’s going to actually change for the better morally speaking, but I count on him moving from  the poor and powerless state he’s in at the moment.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

But I still think Cercei is a better person than Arya the serial-killer. Cersei never killed people with her own hands.  Cersei doesn't consider murder a solution to all her problems (like Arya), and Cersei actually has a reason behind most of her cruel acts

They"re both tool users.  Cercei had the resources of the West , and then all of the kingdom at her disposal; Arya has her hands.   Arya is fighting a war and should be classed as a combatant.   Cercei has the luxury of removing herself from the field as a general, something that Wonder Woman saw as a shameful act and not a sign of any moral superiority.   So, not a knock on Cercei, I just don't see the argument that Arya's method is more wrong.  It's a war.  They're both prosecuting it with the options available to them.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think the Northmen would have just walked out of Harrenhal?

Nope. But they wouldn't kill every Lannister's soldiers.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But I still think she is a better person than Arya the serial-killer. Cersei never killed people with her own hands

Whom did Hitler, Stalin, Zedong, Pavelic or Milosevic kill with their own hand? 

Yes, Arya killed people but i don't think that would qualify as serial killing.

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34 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

They"re both tool users.  Cercei had the resources of the West , and then all of the kingdom at her disposal; Arya has her hands.   Arya is fighting a war and should be classed as a combatant.   Cercei has the luxury of removing herself from the field as a general, something that Wonder Woman saw as a shameful act and not a sign of any moral superiority.   So, not a knock on Cercei, I just don't see the argument that Arya's method is more wrong.  It's a war.  They're both prosecuting it with the options available to them.

Cersei is the ruler of the Seven Kingdoms. She can execute people who she thinks are traitors. Treason is a crime in this world. Arya is just a little girl and civilian. I also don't like that people break their promises or are mean, but I don't kill them or have other people kill them.

And it does something to you when you do kill with your own hands and witness it all day, whereas you are not as emotionally detached from those things when you just sign papers and give orders.

10 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Whom did Hitler, Stalin, Zedong, Pavelic or Milosevic kill with their own hand? 

The fact that they did not should indicates that those people are not, in fact, serial killers (although I'm not sure about Pavelic - the Ustashe regime was really over the top). If you look at people's minds and their capacity for cruelty then Hitler and Himmler (who actually broke down when he visited one of the concentration camps) are in much milder league than the people actually working there. Mengele and Höß are much worse than their superiors outside the camps.

This doesn't mean that ordering atrocities and murder isn't also wrong. But it is actually very easy to command something, and another thing to actually do it.

George even addresses this issue on a different level with the Stark approach to justice. In their mind you either are a butcher - meaning you go out there, take the cleaver (or Ice) and hack away at a person's neck until the head is severed from the shoulders - or you do not rule at all.

But doing that - actually being able to kill people with your own hands and doing that - does something to you. It twists you into a person for whom death and killings are part of your everyday life. And if you start witnessing or doing this kind of thing as preteen or teen then your way to process emotions is not the same as that of people who have a more humane upbringing.

George never addresses what this kind of thing does to people, and it is clear that Arya becomes what she is now because of her traumas. But a more delicate mind could actually be put over the edge by witnessing his father killing people - or by being expected to that as soon as he takes his father's place.

10 minutes ago, Kandrax said:

Yes, Arya killed people but i don't think that would qualify as serial killing.

Are has murdered multiple people. At times because she had to defend herself, but at other times just because she could and wanted to do it. That qualifies as serial-killing for me. In fact, she might be a Dexter in the making, no?

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1 hour ago, zandru said:

Arya had to be convinced, over the course of several days, that there was adequate reason to assassinate the old insurance fraudster before she took action, and her solution - poisoning him with a gold coin - was an ironic way for him to go, and had no element of "bloodthirstiness."

One interpretation of the kindly old man in regards to the insurance man, is that he was a fraud-but it is still just an interpretation of the words of a man who murders and lies for a living, Arya did not actually try to see if her interpretation was correct(perhaps the insurance man actually honored all his agreements and no widow or orphan actually wanted him dead) or if the kindly old man was simply trying to trick her. It’s dishonest to say the man was definitely cheating anybody, just because it makes Arya’s murder less of a egregious thing, and somehow justice(given it was at the behest of an organization that has actually killed the innocent and weak instead of being perhaps cheating them).   Arya would like to for the man to have done something immoral-if he was she could kill him without feeling bad she murdered a stranger in order to further her training.

 

59 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

They"re both tool users.  Cercei had the resources of the West , and then all of the kingdom at her disposal; Arya has her hands.   Arya is fighting a war and should be classed as a combatant.   Cercei has the luxury of removing herself from the field as a general, something that Wonder Woman saw as a shameful act and not a sign of any moral superiority.   So, not a knock on Cercei, I just don't see the argument that Arya's method is more wrong.  It's a war.  They're both prosecuting it with the options available to them.

A fair statement.

 

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On 10/19/2018 at 4:02 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I do hate Sansa but I am aware that she is a better human being than her sister, Arya.  

Oh, please.  Say you dislike her, say you find her annoying, shallow, naive, privileged and entitled - at least in AGOT.  Say you find a 12 year-old girl's pov chapters to be a tedious read, that she's vapid or even dumb or that the events that unfold in her chapters are boring and don't interest you.  Say you can't forgive or forget her naivety, selfishness or credulity in going to see Cersei in AGOT and telling her, well, whatever she did (and all she knew was she was going home).  But please don't say you HATE her, that's such a vague and even sloppy way of expressing disapproval and it's the sort of thing that implies malice or antipathy (which you may not intend to) that pushes us down the path of wondering (should we care to) why you "hate" a traumatized 12 year old girl.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:30 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Catelyn - proxy for people's mothers.

Daenerys and Sansa - proxies for the pretty girls that never looked their way at school

Brienne and Cersei - proxies for women who dare to think they can do what men do as well as them.

A generalization ofc but in a lot of cases bang on the money (imo).  Sansa not appreciating Tyrion enough is an argument that will stay with me.

On 10/19/2018 at 4:36 PM, Brazenburn said:

Sansa simply isn't a very good character, at least at first. Later on, she's definitely getting better, but I absolutely could not stand to read her chapters in AGoT. So boring and childish, and nauseatingly saccharine. Even when it was obvious that Cersei was a raving psychopath, Joffrey a sadistic and whiny little shit, and the other people in King's Landing (excepting Littlefinger and Varys, of course) are absolutely clueless, she still basically trusted them better than her own father, who is basically the most trustworthy character in the series.

This is actually the genius of the writing.  How GRRM can put himself into an 11 year old girl's head (or an 8 year old boy's head as with Bran) and write the character to feel like it should is beyond me.  Of course Sansa in AGOT is annoying, impossible to relate to and hard to warm to - she is intended to be!  But the story moves on from AGOT and most people sympathise with her fairly awful predicament (except those who find her captivity too passive or her role in story too dull).  GRRM knew exactly what he was doing with her when he started her off as this sheltered and privileged girl and shattered all her hopes and illusions.  I find her in ASOS and AFFC to be a very enjoyable read and firmly root for her.

On 10/19/2018 at 10:42 PM, Lord Varys said:

I don't care what Arya suffered through, I just say she behaves like a psycho-killer. And that's how she behaves.

Presenting a contentious opinion as if it were incontestable fact?  That doesn't sound like you at all......

On 10/20/2018 at 12:44 AM, Clegane'sPup said:

There came a time in the story that I wanted the little loose lip girl to change. She didn't. She started out 11 years of age. Now she is about 13 years of age. I even rooted for Sansa to be involved in having LF tossed out the moon door.

 

Sansa threw her family under the bus.  Now, while she is in hiding for a crime she did not commit or participate in she is doing LF's will. Be that placating or not.

Sansa is dependent on LF.  Sansa lied about Lysa's death.  Sansa is wanted by the IT in connection to the death of Kng Joff.  Book Sansa and screen Sansa are two different characters.

Why do I dislike the Sansa character as written by martin?  Because, Sansa with all her flaws was me at the age of eleven ---- self centered, selfish and whinny.

 

She has changed though.  She is not the same girl as in AGOT.  Her circumstances have not changed greatly from KL and that limits her options - she is still a captive and her claim is still what makes her of value to her captor - but the girl who leads Robert Arryn over the narrow bridge is not the self-centered, whiny, selfish girl you took a dislike to in AGOT.

15 hours ago, Springwatch said:

This particular thread is well balanced, which is good, because I was all ready to junk asoiaf and return to Lord of the Rings and not be bothered by female characters at all. I mean what's the point of giving lots of page time to well-crafted female characters if they're only going to be perceived as stupid evil trolls anyway?

Point is for you to read and enjoy them and to root for them in their trials and tribulations (and I hope you still can) and occasionally even argue against the harsher and more unbalanced criticism that comes their way.  I had to find out on these forums that people don't like Catelyn, Dany or Sansa (the latter to a lesser extent as she has far less ability to affect events) and although it makes me a little sad to see some of the vitriol that comes their way it does not stop me enjoying their characters or stories, even Catelyn's arc, however tragic.

4 hours ago, Mindrot said:

You don’t care what Arya went through, it gives zero context to why she kills who she does.  While you care supremely about what Cersei suffered through and use it as an excuse for her behavior at every possible turn.

Oh, you're expecting consistency from the person you are debating rather than arbitrary pronouncements and conflicting reasoning?  Good luck with that.  Live and learn :P

2 hours ago, zandru said:

Not that anyone asked, but I think Sansa is still morally a better person than Cersei.

Please tell me we have not been reduced to this as a benchmark comparison?!

1 hour ago, Kandrax said:

Whom did Hitler, Stalin, Zedong, Pavelic or Milosevic kill with their own hand? 

Yes, Arya killed people but i don't think that would qualify as serial killing.

Yeah, she doesn't have an mo or a type or do it to sate some psychological need.  She has a kill list which is all about a twisting of justice and revenge into an inseparable thing for her but these are specific individuals.  She has killed out of expediency but also either at direction or without need and all of Dareon, the Guard at Harrenhall (Door Guard #1 btw!) and the ship broker trouble me.

If she can escape The Faceless Men I think she can escape being turned into a cold blooded assassin / child soldier but it's pretty dicey at this stage.  The savagery of the last two years and the casual approach to killing she has been exposed to ("You'll have to carry me" "Think so?") have made a deep imprint.

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Insurance guy may very well be guilty of fraud. But last time I looked that doesn't justify some random girl to kill him for that. Just as I don't have the right to go out there and kill all the people I think committed crimes. That's vigilantism. And it is even worse, if you think of it, when you do it as a contracted assassin. Because then the money you or your organization receive is the deciding factor, not that the person is guilty or not. And while Arya became convinced the man was guilty she would have never killed had she not been a Faceless Girl trainee.

But then, the crucial thing is how she deals with her personal kills. And both Dareon and Raff are simply utterly disgusting. In the latter case it is obvious that she enjoyed what she did and how she excelled at it, and in the former case she likely had similar feelings (although we don't know that). What we can say is that she was an utterly cold fish about killing Dareon.

The Faceless Men could actually give her desire to kill direction and meaning. Her desire has long outgrown her list - Dareon wasn't on that list, after all. But chances are that the Faceless Men don't kill for 'good reasons' either, so I don't know what she should do. Killing people rarely helps young girls to develop into responsible adults. Nor is it a good way to keep or reconnect with your humanity. If Arya were to continue with her list she could just as well make her name the last and be done with the sorry affair of her life.

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Cersei is simply awful. To give her power is like allowing a monkey to fly a plane. I don't pity her, I pity the smallfolk who live under her "reign".

 

Arya and Sansa are still kids. Big difference.

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Okay, several people have their own interpretations, nothing will ever shake them, and they won't stand silent until they've beaten everybody else into submission and agreement. Fine.

... but you're wrong.  ;-)

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