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Why do you all hate Sansa Stark?

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1 hour ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Where in the text does it ever say that anyone thinks that’s his motivation? It’s an excuse that you’ve made up.

Actually, we do make judgements on characters who mistreat Tyrion based on his being a dwarf. At least most of us do. Do we think more or less of Tywin for it? It being “acceptable” to others doesn’t lessen the impact on Tyrion. Precisely the opposite.

There are plenty of men in loveless marriages in the books that don’t resort to sexual assault. There is a choice.

No, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Robert set it up. She had no say. That’s made perfectly clear in the books.

Because you’ve repeated yourself in capitals? Yes, that’s certainly clarified things.

It’s not a lack of understanding, it’s a disagreement.

I never said that. I said it was wrong of him to rape his wife. What he did with consenting adults I have no problem with. It was you who suggested Cersei’s adultery was somehow abusive to Robert, yet Robert’s adultery was fine.  

But that’s not why he did it. He did it because she questioned his masculinity. He lashed out in anger. Unjustifiable conduct whoever she is.

No, that’s not what you were saying. You were saying that we will only have true equality when men get to slap women.

So what you’re are saying is that if a woman insults you enough or upsets you enough it’s ok to hit her?

Surprised you haven’t mentioned the fact Robert nearly murdered Joffery(Cersi’s fistborn son), when the boy was 3. 

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18 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Surprised you haven’t mentioned the fact Robert nearly murdered Joffery(Cersi’s fistborn son), when the boy was 3. 

Joffrey cut the cat open with his dagger.  Given baby teeth start to fall out when the child is 5-6 I would put his age at 6.  It's still disturbing that a six year old has a dagger and is proficient at using it but it's more credible than for a 3 year old.

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20 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No, Tywin, Jon Arryn and Robert set it up. She had no say. That’s made perfectly clear in the books.

Come on, you are being disingenuous here. She had a say, she was even excited about the match. There is zero indication from her POV chapters that she was against marrying Robert. 

As for sex in the marriage, to a modern reader it is clearly rape, to the people raised in that society it is more complicated, Cersei herself never refers to it as rape but at the same time both husband and wife are aware his behaviour is not socially acceptable. 

You keep on bringing up that Cersei had no options, but this is untrue.  Naerys Targaryen pleaded to be allowed to refrain from sex, Alysanne was able to leave her husband temporarily, Balon's wife has moved castle while Doran's wife has moved continent. Cersei has made no indication that she wants their marriage set aside nor has she indicated to want a sexless marriage (cause for annulment) or left the capital to escape his advances. The marriage and the capital come with influence and power for Cersei so she has persisted and even, on occasion, sexually satisfied him. She's done nothing to get out of that marriage.

 

 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:57 PM, Mindrot said:

Nice evasion of the question, seems like the ultimate piece of shit move to get an entire kingdom with the understanding that you will provide heirs, then not provide them.  Can you answer the question?  Robert gave Cersei a kingdom, what did Cersei give Robert?  

 

Stability. Robert's crown is weak without a marriage to a Lannister, Tyrell, Hightower or possibly Martell. He needs a powerful marriage alliance to secure his kingdom, she was not just chosen to produce heirs.  

Robert is pretty similar to Edward IV (warrior, becoming hugely fat, ambitious brothers) who screwed his kingdom by picking the Woodvilles over the Nevilles or a foreign princess, Robert instead marries the Kingmaker's daughter but things still go wrong. 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:57 PM, Mindrot said:

This whole thing is way off topic so this will be my last post on this thread about Cersei:  The main point is that it was Cersei Lannister that was cuckholding Robert, it was Cersei who was commiting high treason, how the hell can you say both parties were equally at fault?  Robert did absolutely nothing that is out of the norm for Westeros society.  It was Cersei who was doing everything wrong, while trying to keep a hold of her power.

They were both as bad each other, both were fucking other people and creating bastards. From a moral point of view both committed the same crime. Cersei simply killed Robert before he her. 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:57 PM, Mindrot said:

Also, when Robert hits Cersei in front of Ned, she 100% had it coming to her.  I actually cheered when reading that line “wear it in silence or I will honor you again”.  Just read that scene please and tell me that Cersei was not 100% the instigator for that conflict. 

Come on, there is no need for crap like this. Robert is 6'6 and built, no one should be taking glee from him being abusive. 

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6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stability. Robert's crown is weak without a marriage to a Lannister, Tyrell, Hightower or possibly Martell. He needs a powerful marriage alliance to secure his kingdom, she was not just chosen to produce heirs.  

This is a good point.  Ultimately Cersei did not give stability to this marriage at all, but in the beginning, yes.

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert is pretty similar to Edward IV (warrior, becoming hugely fat, ambitious brothers) who screwed his kingdom by picking the Woodvilles over the Nevilles or a foreign princess, Robert instead marries the Kingmaker's daughter but things still go wrong. 

They were both as bad each other, both were fucking other people and creating bastards. From a moral point of view both committed the same crime. Cersei simply killed Robert before he her. 

I disagree with this sentiment, because of one small mistake on their wedding night, Cersei hates Robert for the rest of their marriage.  Robert is not going to be the most lovey dovey husband obviously, but in general he seems to favor laughter and partying over depression and conservatism (like Stannis for example).  I think Robert would have done a lot of things to make Cersei happy (he would still sleep around on her, but given that she wants to keep sleeping with Jaime <Cersei defenders will say she truly loved Jaime, so she would not want to give him up>).  It seems very clear from PoVs and the information in the book that it is impossible to really please Cersei, but I think Robert would have tried.

6 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Come on, there is no need for crap like this. Robert is 6'6 and built, no one should be taking glee from him being abusive. 

This is the part that is so confusing to me, why do you not consider Cersei's behavior to be the abuse?  Robert is NOT BEING ABUSIVE, he simply wants to be left alone with his friend who is wounded.  Cersei is the one acting completely against any societal norm, or general feeling of politeness.  She clearly is not worried about any form of reprisal from Robert for this behavior, she completely ignores his warnings that her behavior is out of line.  What stops Robert from hitting Cersei again after she is quiet?  HE EVEN HAS TO THREATEN HER AGAIN BECAUSE SHE WON'T STOP BEING ABUSIVE!  Robert was not being abusive, Cersei was being a total cunt.  It boggles my mind that people can't see this.  

Robert is 6'6 and built, if he is such a brute, why does Cersei needle him all the time?  Why does she have zero fear of him?  She threatens to have his bastards killed and he hits her....Is it only because she is female that Robert cannot hit her?  She threatens to have his bastard children killed (kids Robert is shown to dote on and love) and he hits her.  In what universe is that called abuse?  She is talking about murderering kids, Cersei is talking about killing someone elses kids, why is she immune to physical violence?  Again we are not talking about some evil brute that comes how and smacks his wife because she looked at him wrong.  Cersei threatens to kill his children...  I just do not understand why she is deserving of any protection in this moment (or in Neds bed chamber when he is wounded).

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10 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

This is a good point.  Ultimately Cersei did not give stability to this marriage at all, but in the beginning, yes.

Stability to the kingdom. 

Though how do you figure Cersei was the one who did not give the marriage stability? She was discreet, he was not. 

Quote

I disagree with this sentiment, because of one small mistake on their wedding night, Cersei hates Robert for the rest of their marriage. 

Except it was not one small mistake, it was years of openly humiliating her by fucking whoever he pleases ___if Stannis was angry imagine how Cersei felt___, the sexual and physical assaults and his beating of Joffrey. 

It was not one small mistake.

There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm's End during the siege. "Her father was good to me," Robert told her, "and she and I would play together when the two of us were small." It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned."

Robert openly treated her like shit. Ultimately they were as awful as each other. but lets not act delusional and pretend it was not one small mistake on Robert's behalf. Cat feels a little humiliated over Ned once having made a bastard. her anger would be hugely amplified had Ned treated their marriage like Robert had. 

Quote

This is the part that is so confusing to me, why do you not consider Cersei's behavior to be the abuse? 

It is not an either/or situation. They are both shitty people, that does not mean I am going to cheer on domestic abuse. 

Quote

 

Robert is NOT BEING ABUSIVE, he simply wants to be left alone with his friend who is wounded. 

Yeah, once he hits her that is abuse (and vice versa). Read the room, Ned is disgusted by it and Robert is ashamed  of his action. All 3 people in that room as well as the vast majority of the millions of readers and viewers recognize it as abuse. 

Quote

 

Cersei is the one acting completely against any societal norm, or general feeling of politeness.  She clearly is not worried about any form of reprisal from Robert for this behavior, she completely ignores his warnings that her behavior is out of line.  What stops Robert from hitting Cersei again after she is quiet?  HE EVEN HAS TO THREATEN HER AGAIN BECAUSE SHE WON'T STOP BEING ABUSIVE!  Robert was not being abusive, Cersei was being a total cunt.  It boggles my mind that people can't see this.  

Dude, I hope this is an attempt at satire, you are not coming across well in this thread. 

Quote

Robert is 6'6 and built, if he is such a brute, why does Cersei needle him all the time? 

You are really going down this road?

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Stability to the kingdom. 

Sorry I meant the kingdom.

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Though how do you figure Cersei was the one who did not give the marriage stability? She was discreet, he was not. 

Well according to her own words, she despised Robert for the rest of their marriage after the first night, do you think she worked to make the marriage stable with a man she despised?  Robert did not feel the same for Cersei (in the beginning certainly, later I am sure he was very jaded with her).  Also she was NOT discreet, she fucked Jaime in the same bed that Robert was drunkenly sleeping in.  She was careful not to let people know that she was fucking Jaime, but that was only because she would have her head chopped off.  However it is not fair to say that she is being "discreet" in her extra marital affairs.  Like she is trying to protect Robert from her actions...

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except it was not one small mistake, it was years of openly humiliating her by fucking whoever he pleases ___if Stannis was angry imagine how Cersei felt___, the sexual and physical assaults and his beating of Joffrey. 

It was not years of openly humiliating her, it was the first night of their wedding, she said so explicitly.  

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It was not one small mistake.

According to Cersei it was.  

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm's End during the siege. "Her father was good to me," Robert told her, "and she and I would play together when the two of us were small." It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned."

Robert openly treated her like shit. Ultimately they were as awful as each other. but lets not act delusional and pretend it was not one small mistake on Robert's behalf. Cat feels a little humiliated over Ned once having made a bastard. her anger would be hugely amplified had Ned treated their marriage like Robert had. 

It is not an either/or situation. They are both shitty people, that does not mean I am going to cheer on domestic abuse. 

Looks like Robert was trying to be pretty discreet also, EXTREMELY discreet considering as King he can have sex with whoever he wants and get away with it.  Robert isnt bringing these women to fuck in bed next to a sleeping Cersei.  Jaime had to follow the king, so clearly he LEFT to go do this.  Also when Jaime comes back, Cersei says that this outcome IS WHAT SHE WANTS "I want him horned".  She knows that Robert will leave her alone if he is sleeping with other women.  Is it an affront to Cersei that Robert is fucking other women, when she also refuses to have sex with him?  Of course because EVERYTHING is an affront to Cersei.  Where do we see evidence of Robert openly treating her like shit?   It seems pretty obvious in the interactions we see between the 2 of them that Cersei treats Robert like shit openly, not vice versa.

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, once he hits her that is abuse (and vice versa). Read the room, Ned is disgusted by it and Robert is ashamed  of his action. All 3 people in that room as well as the vast majority of the millions of readers and viewers recognize it as abuse. 

Except the readers know everything else Cersei has been doing to Robert, including plotting his death...

35 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude, I hope this is an attempt at satire, you are not coming across well in this thread. 

You are really going down this road?

 

 

Sorry I did not see a refute to anything I said.  It is very clear that Cersei is the abusive one.  Why does Robert have to endure verbal and emotional abuse from Cersei?  Why can't he defend himself the only way he knows how?  Is it only because Cersei is a woman?  This woman is a murderer (of Melara) and has probably ordered the deaths of dozens of people, the tongues ripped out of dozens more.  Why is it morally wrong to use physical force to defend yourself from this monster?  Again if your only reason is that she is a woman, that seems like the soft bigotry of low expectations to me.  

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57 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robert openly treated her like shit. Ultimately they were as awful as each other. but lets not act delusional and pretend it was not one small mistake on Robert's behalf. Cat feels a little humiliated over Ned once having made a bastard. her anger would be hugely amplified had Ned treated their marriage like Robert had. 

 

Yes, and had Cat treated their marriage like Cersei does, Ned would have been justified to cut her head off, these 2 things are not equal, please understand that.  

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22 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Yes, and had Cat treated their marriage like Cersei does, Ned would have been justified to cut her head off, these 2 things are not equal, please understand that.  

How on earth did you come  to the conclusion that I did not understand that? Had Robert found out about the treason and proven her guilt he'd be well in his rights to execute her. Has anyone argued differently?

What people find a problem with is the physical and sexual assaults he commits when he does not get his own way, a clear difference. Neither Robert or Cersei are justified with physically abusing each other to let of steam. 

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Sorry I meant the kingdom.

The kingdom was stable while their marriage existed.

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Well according to her own words, she despised Robert for the rest of their marriage after the first night, do you think she worked to make the marriage stable with a man she despised? 

Yeah, she never actually says that.  Building your premise on a quote that does not exist is not a great start. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

Robert did not feel the same for Cersei (in the beginning certainly, later I am sure he was very jaded with her).

Citation?

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

  Also she was NOT discreet, she fucked Jaime in the same bed that Robert was drunkenly sleeping in. 

She was discreet, it was a secret for 13 years, that is the very definition of discreet, while Robert's philandering was public knowledge. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

She was careful not to let people know that she was fucking Jaime, but that was only because she would have her head chopped off. 

Yes, everyone is well aware of why she had to be discreet. I'm not sure anyone was questioning why. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

However it is not fair to say that she is being "discreet" in her extra marital affairs.  Like she is trying to protect Robert from her actions...

It is an adjective, it means what it means. 

Cersei was faced with constant humiliation because Robert could not be discreet, it is a valid reason why her contempt will have grew and grew over the marriage. No one is denying it is hypocritical on her part but it contradicts your weak argument that her anger was only from one small mistake  on their wedding night. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

It was not years of openly humiliating her, it was the first night of their wedding, she said so explicitly.  

Except she didn't. 

 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

According to Cersei it was.  

Again, no. She goes over many of the reasons she hates him. 

He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

She has issue with the frequent sexual assaults and his promiscuity. 

There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm's End during the siege. "Her father was good to me," Robert told her, "and she and I would play together when the two of us were small." It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned."

 

It is not all down to the wedding night, at least not in the books. There is aTV forum for discussing the show.

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Looks like Robert was trying to be pretty discreet also,

No, it does not. 

"Your own wife begs as well, lord husband." Queen Selyse went down on both knees before the king, hands clasped as if in prayer. "Robert and Delena defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it." She threw her arms around his legs. "He is only one boy, born of your brother's lust and my cousin's shame."
"He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman." King Stannis put a hand on her shoulder, awkwardly untangling himself from her grasp. "Perhaps Robert did curse our marriage bed. He swore to me that he never meant to shame me, that he was drunk and never knew which bedchamber he entered that night. 
 
When you are so drunk you are fucking on the bridal bed then you are not being discreet. 
 
 
32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

EXTREMELY discreet considering as King he can have sex with whoever he wants and get away with it.

Yeah, that is not how the English language works. Adjectives don't have different meanings for monarchs.

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 She knows that Robert will leave her alone if he is sleeping with other women. 

Except that is not true. The early years he was both promiscuous and sexually assaulting Cersei.

 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

Where do we see evidence of Robert openly treating her like shit? 

Reread my previous replies, I've been more than clear.

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

It seems pretty obvious in the interactions we see between the 2 of them that Cersei treats Robert like shit openly, not vice versa.

They are both guilty of it. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Except the readers know everything else Cersei has been doing to Robert, including plotting his death...

And?

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Sorry I did not see a refute to anything I said.

Why would I? I'm still not convinced you were serious. If you are then its a shame but I'm not qualified to help you.

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

  It is very clear that Cersei is the abusive one. 

They both are. You do realize that its not a case or one or the other, right?

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Why does Robert have to endure verbal and emotional abuse from Cersei?

He doesn't. Not one person has made that claim. But he he has other options. 

32 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Why can't he defend himself the only way he knows how? 

Yeah, you are not helping your argument with shit like this. I'm done. 

 

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1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

The kingdom was stable while their marriage existed.

Ok my last post on this thread about Cersei for real, I will read your response:  This is a bit of a half truth, considering it was her decision to have bastard kids thats are not actual heirs, and her plotting to kill the king caused just a tiny bit of trouble for the 7k.  

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, she never actually says that.  Building your premise on a quote that does not exist is not a great start. 

Ned says "What caused you to hate him so?"  And she says the first night of the wedding he calls her Lyanna when hes on top of her.  Go reread it.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Citation?

Ned also says "I remember Robert in those days, every inch the King, a thousand women might have loved him with all their hearts"  This seems to indicate that Robert is not some brutal rapist SOB, it indicates that he was a good man (despite his flaws).  Do we ever get a Robert PoV to know his heart? no I guess not.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

She was discreet, it was a secret for 13 years, that is the very definition of discreet, while Robert's philandering was public knowledge. 

Definition of discreet "careful and circumspect in one's speech or actions, especially in order to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage"  None of what Cersei is doing would be called discreet, it would be called Clandestine.  

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yes, everyone is well aware of why she had to be discreet. I'm not sure anyone was questioning why. 

Not discreet.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

It is an adjective, it means what it means. 

True story

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Cersei was faced with constant humiliation because Robert could not be discreet, it is a valid reason why her contempt will have grew and grew over the marriage. No one is denying it is hypocritical on her part but it contradicts your weak argument that her anger was only from one small mistake  on their wedding night. 

Its a weak argument when it comes directly from the person we are talking about?  Interesting definition of weak.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except she didn't. 

Except she did.  Reread it, she gives no other reason for why she hates Robert so much

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Again, no. She goes over many of the reasons she hates him. 

He did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. She could see it in his eyes. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than to face his shame. Deep down Robert Baratheon was a coward. In time the assaults did grow less frequent. During the first year he took her at least once a fortnight; by the end it was not even once a year. He never stopped completely, though. Sooner or later there would always come a night when he would drink too much and want to claim his rights. What shamed him in the light of day gave him pleasure in the darkness.

She has issue with the frequent sexual assaults and his promiscuity. 

There had been a female cousin too, a chunky little widow with breasts as big as melons whose husband and father had both died at Storm's End during the siege. "Her father was good to me," Robert told her, "and she and I would play together when the two of us were small." It did not take him long to start playing with her again. As soon as Cersei closed her eyes, the king would steal off to console the poor lonely creature. One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. "No," she had replied, "I want him horned."

 

It is not all down to the wedding night, at least not in the books. There is aTV forum for discussing the show.

According to Cersei its all down to the wedding night.  Sure there where other things she mentions afterwards, but the core of her hatred comes from that first night according to her.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it does not. 

"Your own wife begs as well, lord husband." Queen Selyse went down on both knees before the king, hands clasped as if in prayer. "Robert and Delena defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it." She threw her arms around his legs. "He is only one boy, born of your brother's lust and my cousin's shame."
"He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman." King Stannis put a hand on her shoulder, awkwardly untangling himself from her grasp. "Perhaps Robert did curse our marriage bed. He swore to me that he never meant to shame me, that he was drunk and never knew which bedchamber he entered that night. 
 
When you are so drunk you are fucking on the bridal bed then you are not being discreet. 
 
 
 
 

Yeah, that is not how the English language works. Adjectives don't have different meanings for monarchs.

Good examples of Robert being non-discreet.

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Ok my last post on this thread about Cersei for real, I will read your response:  This is a bit of a half truth,

No, it is not. While their marriage existed the realm was stable. Things turned to shit once Robert was dead. 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

considering it was her decision to have bastard kids thats are not actual heirs, and her plotting to kill the king caused just a tiny bit of trouble for the 7k.  

What does that have to do with what I said?

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Ned says "What caused you to hate him so?"  And she says the first night of the wedding he calls her Lyanna when hes on top of her.  Go reread it.

And Cersei expands in her own chapters on why she hated him. He was a shit husband, openly promiscuous, sexually and physically abusive.  

 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Ned also says "I remember Robert in those days, every inch the King, a thousand women might have loved him with all their hearts"

Right, and he feels pity for the two of them. He's not assigning fault for two fucked up people who destroyed their own marriage

"He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna."
Ned Stark thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep. "I do not know which of you I pity most."
 
21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

  This seems to indicate that Robert is not some brutal rapist SOB, it indicates that he was a good man (despite his flaws). 

No it does not. 

And that is not how sexual assault works, anyone is capable of it regardless of their gender or  physical beauty.  Robert also likes having sex with young girls much to Ned's shock

The girl had been so young Ned had not dared to ask her age. No doubt she'd been a virgin; the better brothels could always find a virgin, if the purse was fat enough. She had light red hair and a powdering of freckles across the bridge of her nose, and when she slipped free a breast to give her nipple to the babe, he saw that her bosom was freckled as well. "I named her Barra," she said as the child nursed. "She looks so like him, does she not, milord? She has his nose, and his hair …"

 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

 

Do we ever get a Robert PoV to know his heart? no I guess not.

We don't. Cersei's description is pretty clear,  it was sexual assault. 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Definition of discreet "careful and circumspect in one's speech or actions, especially in order to avoid causing offense or to gain an advantage"  None of what Cersei is doing would be called discreet, it would be called Clandestine.  

It was kept secret for 13 years, that is discreet. 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Not discreet.

Yeah, it was. You not liking it does not change it. 

 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Its a weak argument when it comes directly from the person we are talking about?  Interesting definition of weak.

Nope, Robert's indiscretion with his infidelity comes from multiple sources. Cersei, Stannis, Seleyse, Littlefinger. 

There is not a single source in the books that implies he was discreet.

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

Except she did.  Reread it, she gives no other reason for why she hates Robert so much

She gives multiple reasons, I quoted some for you in my previous post. 

21 minutes ago, Mindrot said:

According to Cersei its all down to the wedding night. 

Nope, she goes into detail why. 

 

 

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#donkeyridesbringpeopletogether

So in the short term i can see her shacking up with that nosy girl from the donkey experience chapter in the most... recent (ha!) book.    But the lords declarent will put a stop to that with a lengthy lecture about how the vale is in the middle ages still so you can't marry a woman.   That's when the guy the vale is setting sansa up on a blind date with gets caught getting it on with the nosy girl from donkey time and Sansa blurts out, "okay i'm ready to go back to kings landing now."   Which is when Pete realizes it's time to tell her about....... (this is where the drum roll would be---here, in this dense forest of dots).........   

AEGON.

 

Edited to add:

you know i could have sworn i'd posted this to "Who's Sansa Going To Marry?"    Probably would have made more sense there, but it's more needed here.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Joffrey cut the cat open with his dagger.  Given baby teeth start to fall out when the child is 5-6 I would put his age at 6.  It's still disturbing that a six year old has a dagger and is proficient at using it but it's more credible than for a 3 year old.

This seems a minor quibble. 3 or 6, a man the size of Robert hitting a boy around either of those ages could have very easily killed the boy. Which again Cersi feelings of resentment towards would be rightly and greatly amplified. 

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On 10/19/2018 at 11:10 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Or Tywin, for example, who actually started the thing.

Or Varys 

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On 10/27/2018 at 2:39 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This seems a minor quibble. 3 or 6, a man the size of Robert hitting a boy around either of those ages could have very easily killed the boy. Which again Cersi feelings of resentment towards would be rightly and greatly amplified. 

Yeah, I didn't say anything about Robert or Cersei though.  I was just struck by the idea that Joffery was allowed to own and carry a dagger and was capable enough to plan how to and dexterous enough to use it at 3 years old.  Six still feels too young to be able to think through and accomplish this but then I don't have kids so maybe I'm underestimating critical thinking and mechanical capability and overestimating parental responsibility.  That's all.

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On 10/27/2018 at 2:26 AM, The Transporter said:

I dislike Sansa for numerous reasons.  One being that she's a spoiled brat.  

Was she spoiled, though?  And what makes her a "brat"?  She is obedient and well-behaved - isn't that the opposite of what a brat is?  And how "spoiled" does she remain beyond the first half of the first of five novels we have. 

There's a lot more to consider that an 11/12 year old's dreams of handsome princes and illusions about how the world works.

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About misogyny in the sci-fi/fantasy world, I just watched Power of Grayskull: The Definitive History of He-Man and the Masters of the Universe on Netflix (yes, I’m a dork) and it goes into this quite a bit as He-Man had a female (gasp!) director and there were especially a lot of problems getting She-Ra off the ground.

 

Barbara Hambly—writer for She-Ra

I don’t know how well most men know most women. I know that there are some men  who find women rather mysterious. Many male fantasy writers, they know they should have a woman in the story, but they’re not quite sure how she interacts with the others and sometimes I have the feeling that their knowledge of how to write a woman character comes from reading other male fantasy writers or watching movies.

 

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I think most readers (especially on the younger side) heavily identify with Sansa and her flaws. They like Arya more because that's how you'd like to be - rebellious, wild and brave, but in reality most people are constrained by the societal norms and therefore are more like Sansa - reserved, adaptive and selfish.

This might be armchair psychology and projection, but that's what I think anyways.

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On 10/28/2018 at 6:54 AM, the trees have eyes said:

Was she spoiled, though?  And what makes her a "brat"?  She is obedient and well-behaved - isn't that the opposite of what a brat is?

As I read it, Sansa is "obedient and well-behaved" to her superiors, but seems dismissive, rude, or just plain not noticing her inferiors. (Arya counted among them.) Kiss up, kick down. This appears to be proper, even desireable behavior for a southron lady, but sticks in the craw of some of us 21st c folks. Clearly, not everyone!

One of the things that really annoyed me was the incident during the trip south to King's Landing, when the Band of Heroes (Barristan, Renly, etc) met the King's party. Sansa is unnerved by the sight of Illyn Payne, stumbles backward into the arms of the Hound, who tries to reassure her, and when she sees his face, screams and runs off to hug her wolf pup. Okay. But then Sansa goes over and apologizes to Payne, who likely hasn't noticed a thing. Never a word, nor a thought for the poor Hound, who she wrenched away from in fear and disgust. Kiss up, kick down.

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