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Theories on Magic in Westeros


Lady Barbrey

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How does magic, at base, work in Westeros?  Most of us must have pondered this at one point or another and developed some kind of placeholder theory that explains to ourselves, if no one else, what's going on, pending further developments.  I have my own but I'm very interested in yours, too, so hopefully forum posters will share.

Mine goes like this in a broad sense: when Martin said that the inconsistency of the seasons is not sci-fi based but 'magic', I thought we could take that in two ways.  We could consider magic as the random fairy dust kind of magic, or we could think of it as a force in its own right, with its own structure at least, if not specific rules.  

It seemed to me the latter was closest, because for all the apparent randomness of magic in Westeros, it does seem to have one mostly consistent principle.  Magic requires life-potent properties in order to work, whether that's blood, human sacrifice, Stannis's sperm/soul, Varys's balls or Dany's baby.  While this is not true for skinchangers, or dragon riders, it might have been true for the first skinchangers and dragon-riders, who were transformed themselves through life sacrifice and their descendents have since inherited their abilities.

So I began to consider magic as a force in its own right, as essential to the planet revolving as gravity. A force that could be called 'God' involved as it is with miraculous, seemingly supernatural events and people, but really, at base, another proponent of physics in a world different than our own. It has its own balance and strives towards that balance.  People and animals and flora die naturally on this planet and keep magic stabilized.  But if you want to practice magic, it has a price.  The price is life.  To keep magic stable, the world turning, you need to offer this force called magic some form of life potency in exchange.

This is not altogether different from the Aztec, or indeed the Norse worldview.  Aztecs believed that they had to perform human sacrifice to their gods, on a daily basis, because if they did not, the sun would not rise the next morning and the World would come to an end. This is a worldview George seems to have made real in Westeros: if you want to use magic, you have to perform some kind of life-potent sacrifice to magic, because if you don't, it might not work for one thing, but if it does you destabilize the magic that keeps the World turning and everything dies.

And that's why too the building blocks of magic in Westeros are elemental.  The Ancients believed the building blocks of life were earth, water, air and fire (and sometimes aether, or soul) - when you offer life-potency in sacrifice to magic, you are giving it back the elements of life by which it exists and works.  

The inconsistency of the seasons is therefore, I think, an indication that the actual force of magic has been destabilized through overuse and misuse of magic.  And magic keeps trying to stabilize itself by leeching life force - from grass (ghost grass), flesh (greyscale) and even buildings (turning wood into oily black stone at Asshai) - in places where great works of magic have been performed without fully paying for it.  Or it builds to such a need that a place like Valyria, where its overuse has been described, explodes entirely to take lives and life-force needed for stabilization.

The Children know about the balance between magic practice and life-potent sacrifice.  They taught the First Men.  But they themselves might have been responsible for the inconstant seasons by overusing magic in desperation, in breaking the Arm, or by the magical transformations of people into skinchangers, dragon riders and Others in order to protect themselves and Westeros.  While magic might not be needed to create new magical beings such as these, the fact it runs in bloodlines might also mean the price to magic is simply not being paid, magic is destabilized and the World wobbles, because in this world stable magic is as much responsible for the World turning as gravity.  Possibly.

My thoughts.  How about yours?

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2 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have never heard this before. Can you point to where it can be found?

No, it's just part of this theory.  I made it up!  But it's based on my feeling that nobody in their right minds would build a whole city out of that gloomy, soul-leeching stuff so its cellular structure must have been changed, just as with ghost grass and greyscale.  Everyone in the city seems to be a magic user and there are no children.  If life force is required to feed magic, it stands to reason there are no children because sperm, genitals  fetuses etc are being used to feed spells.  But Asshai itself also is described in terms of soul-sucking and life-leeching, as if its very walls are hungry.  So I got the sense of great magic overuse and magic continuing to try to get its due by leeching the life out of everything, including buildings, roads, etc.

I've read Lovecraft so I understand the references, but I've never bought into them as more than inferences for us to understand the main series.  I could be wrong, of course.  I've read theories of meteorites, infections, strange evil gods, aliens, second moons, etc., but in relation to the whole theory of magic unbalanced I presented above, this makes the most sense to me.

It's also related to what I feel is going on with greyscale.  A huge magic was performed by the Rhoynar and many people who died were not enough to balance life-force with magic  so magic starts leaching life out of flesh, and this perpetuates as a disease.  

With greyscale, water magic is the cause, so magic seems to be sucking water out of flesh and petrifying it to stone.  With Asshai, it seems to be fire magic.  I first thought wood being charcoalized into oily black stone, but if It's similar to greyscale, the walls must have been made originally from something like fire-made marble or even the fused black stone we hear about made by dragonfire, and it's the fire being leeched out, not added, to leave you with a partially melted, thus greasy, original limestone or something similar.

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1 minute ago, Lady Barbrey said:

 

I've read Lovecraft so I understand the references, but I've never bought into them as more than inferences for us to understand the main series.  I could be wrong, of course.  I've read theories of meteorites, infections, strange evil gods, aliens, second moons, etc., but in relation to the whole theory of magic unbalanced I presented above, this makes the most sense to me.

Greasy black stone reminds me of a hardened charcoal the most, the life burned out of wood.  So that's what I'm going with for now.

OMG I was just going to say this reminds me SO much of The Color Out of Space.

Ok - I feel you now on the Greasy Black Stone.

I think on the whole it is a great theory.There does seem to be much unbalance. We are given so many examples of living sacrifices/magical creatures being stopped/dying and knowledge of magic being suppressed. Ned cleaning his blade in the black pool/giving a blood sacrifice to the OG immediately comes to mind. As does the Maesters Order and the Faith of the Seven - and how they suppress all knowledge of the higher mysteries.

There are tons of examples of this kind of thing. GRRM has told us the seasons etc are governed by magic, it is a magical world. I think there is plenty of evidence that magic is out of whack in a bad way.

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3 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

OMG I was just going to say this reminds me SO much of The Color Out of Space.

Ok - I feel you now on the Greasy Black Stone.

I think on the whole it is a great theory.There does seem to be much unbalance. We are given so many examples of living sacrifices/magical creatures being stopped/dying and knowledge of magic being suppressed. Ned cleaning his blade in the black pool/giving a blood sacrifice to the OG immediately comes to mind. As does the Maesters Order and the Faith of the Seven - and how they suppress all knowledge of the higher mysteries.

There are tons of examples of this kind of thing. GRRM has told us the seasons etc are governed by magic, it is a magical world. I think there is plenty of evidence that magic is out of whack in a bad way.

Thanks! Do you have one of your own or something similar?  I think all of us must have something in the back of our minds.

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27 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

And your point is?  Are we not to speculate on world-building in a fantasy novel because George might not have some character neatly summarize it for us?

So I used to really think about magic in asoiaf. Per GRRM, there is no magic system in asoiaf. As GRRM puts it: it is dangerous, mysterious and unpredictable.

There are ways to do the same thing with different means.

Greenseers and children of the forest can use earth magic as "The Hammers of Waters" is actually "giants waking from earth" which is basically a earthquake. They can skinchange animals and have green dreams.

Others can raise dead as mooks and make ice weapons and armors and other stuff with ice. They can bring cold I guess.

Melisandre can burn her enemies' blood (she burnt Orell). Beric's blood burns too. The firemage in Qarth can make flowers and ladders made of fire. He can also walk on coals and wake fire from dragonglass (he also disappeared in mists which is WEIRD?).

Rhoynar water wizards and witches could bend water, yep. I also suspect that they could read the water as TWOIAF says Rhoyne often warned her children about the dangers. Water witches can also find water sources or make them bloom again, raise the river and make floods.

Bloodmages or maegi, can read the future by tasting blood. "Revive" a dead person or make human/animal hybrids by mating women with animals.

Shadowbinders can birth shadows (see Mel) and weave glamors (as a glamor is made of shadow and light, I reckon it is from Mel's shadowbinder training and not red priesstess)

Summoning winds seem like a basic magic that many sorcerers could learn lol. Melisandre, Moqorro, the warlocks all can do it.

Alys Rivers could read the fire, water and clouds. So my theory on Rhoynar holds water (punny) and it proves that air is a magical area.

For the wind/air magic we have; summoning favorable winds, reading clouds. When asked what a stormsinger is GRRM said it is a magical discipline in the East. We also hear of aeromancers in Asshai multiple times in both the main books and TWOIAF.

According to TWOIAF piests of Lion of Night, Bakkalon and Black Goat study magic too (they are mentioned in Asshai and Qohorik are interested in arcane we know that). So saying R'hllor is real because his priests have power is not enough.

Warlocks and the Undying a particular kind of magic I think. They have no connection with any classical elements. Warlocks with their shade of the evening receive prophetic visions. Warlocks can call winds too. The Undying are magical vampires and functionally immortal (until they are not lol). Their home was spatically bended, it was far larger than it seemed.

Phantom tortosies carrying message, rats eating their own tail, a Pureborn's wife going mad after mocking a warlock are all suspected to be warlock magic.

Valyrians were good at fire and blood magic. They were dragonlords, able to control dragons. Shape earth like clay with dragonfire to make fantastic castles and roads. They also knew how to make and re-forge Valyrian steel. They also used glass candles. One slave in Meereen has tattoes of Valyrian glyphs which should give him skin as hard as steel so maybe they used to have magic like that.

I suspect they also knew spells to become immune to fire, I mean they were dragonlords after all. They might have spells to make themselves immune to diseases as Viserys believed Targaryens were so but I don't know it is a pet theory of mine.

Alchemists in Lys, Tyrosh and King's Landing are mentioned. It is magic science. They know how to make stuff. Tears of Lys, the strangler, wildfire and different colors from snails (mentioned in Tyrosh section in TWOIAF).

Mel knows how to make powders. Her powders can show her truth (lie detection, she says to Davos that she would know if he lies); others powders are for lust and fear (Mirri Maz Duur is suspected to use fear one in agot. Dany filled with terror when Mirri threw a red powder in fire and Eriah fled in terror).

We also hear about the shapechangers in the East. I believe they also use Faceless Men's technique of changing face and voice. Of course, Faceless Men can change their faces/voices.

Necromancers are mentioned various times, Qyburn is one. He could make zombies from dead, basically. Necromancers are found in Qohor, Asshai and Nefer. Thoros could use the kiss of life to bring the dead back, Beric too. Note that kiss of fire is the only type of resurrection that brings people as people.

Melisandre and Moqorro don't need basic needs to survive like food, water or sleep.

An overlooked detail in TWOIAF is that Summer Islanders make their ship wood harder with magics.

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19 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Thanks! Do you have one of your own or something similar?  I think all of us must have something in the back of our minds.

Something along the lines of Equivalent Exchange from Full Metal Alchemist. Each and every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I just think it is larger than what an individual does. The actions of every living thing make a difference. Hence why the cyclical nature of the seasons changes depending on the level of interaction between living and magic via sacrifice, knowledge etc. It could even go as far as a symbiotic relationship between the living, the dead, and magic. Much fluctuation is to be expected, but always with a degree of balance in the end.

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30 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Something along the lines of Equivalent Exchange from Full Metal Alchemist. Each and every action has an equal and opposite reaction. I just think it is larger than what an individual does. The actions of every living thing make a difference. Hence why the cyclical nature of the seasons changes depending on the level of interaction between living and magic via sacrifice, knowledge etc. It could even go as far as a symbiotic relationship between the living, the dead, and magic. Much fluctuation is to be expected, but always with a degree of balance in the end.

I like this!  It relates very well to my own theory but I love idea of the symbiotic relationship between the living, the dead and magic.  We certainly get a sense of that in the Children's cave, and also - a curious point - some kind of life and memory still residing in bones or fleshy deathmasks.

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I put aSoIaF magic on the same basis as quantum physics: unknowable, unmeasurable but capable of producing real change in the perceivable world. It appears that there are five kinds of magic in Martin's world: fire, blood, water (ice), earth and shadow. Whether you consider all of these to be "life potent" is up to interpretation, particularly when it comes to shadow magic (maybe as the anti-life variety?), but I think any attempt to understand it beyond that point goes against the grain of Martin's literary intent.

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Great stuff,  m'Lady.   Wow.  (Especially the part about how magic passed through bloodlines is not being properly paid for and adds to the imbalance/instability.)

The universal leeching quality of spells applies to shade of the evening drinkers as well.  The drink that adds to their potency is subtracting something from them too like it's from the meth family.  But i hadn't applied magical  leaching to greyscale sufferers!   And it's been so long since I'd been creeped out by the grass that its inclusion felt new as well.

I keep coming back to the notion of magical poles for the planet, like the magnetosphere has these two places at Asshai and IceNorth where it attaches to the planet and dives into the mantle and connects to the spinning core.  But the cosmic energies being largely kept out from the rest of the globe are able to ride those waves of force down too until they collect around these weak points in the planet's armor, ultimately touching down upon the surface and beginning to interact with ghost grass or dead bodies in the way Lovecraft showed us in The Colour from Outer Space.  That'd be my explanation for Why we have Asshai and the Deep North.  And the contamination spreads outward from there.

Sadly, this means any real Balancing would entail closing these doors to hell at the poles and leaving a mostly magicless (boring) world behind as the "successful" conclusion of ice&fire history?  Who wants that?  I dislike it when the ending of a series kills off the most interesting aspects of the writer's world.   Maybe I'll hope for something less than a true balancing of the Magic Equation then.

The Children seem to know whom they're talking to when they make their sacrificial pacts to alter the course of world history.  They get something very specific in return for those "natural" catastrophies, i bet.  Whereas the rest of us mere mortals are flailing around with our spells, imagining some gods and slapping their names onto the more real phenomenon. As we intuit our way into casting spells (i.e. as our brainwaves are reordered by the cosmic power we're exposing ourselves to, we gain insight into the physics of magic, and we think, "Maybe when I immolate myself it'll turn out better this time than the last few Targaryens who tried, because i really feel ready, like it's my time, you know?"  And then someone Stormborn hits upon the right specifics and succeeds at the ritual of reforging the Fire Bond that merges Life with the elemental magic,  and fire is made flesh and the dragons are quickened in their eggs. 

All because Something reached out from the other side with enough nuance, and Someone on this side was a sturdy and proper enough vessel to contain magic's Touch , so that Daenerys' instinctive mind was able to feel its way into synchronicity with magic, without going totally insane- - which is a definite plus.

 

 

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Magic is soul energy forced through or into an elemental matrix. Fire and blood, for example- the recipe for Valyrian Steel involves human sacrifice in its creation and I think that swords made from it drink in the soul energy of those who die on them and those who wield them.

When Melisandre makes a shadow baby she is forcing the soul of an unborn child into elemental shadow. I'm not sure how here ruby pendant works but when she glamored Rattleshirt she was drawing on her own life energy, leaving her exhausted, in real time, leaving her in agony as "Mance" burned. Despite the protestations of R'hlorrites perhaps light is not the same as heat?

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10 hours ago, Ellard Stark said:

So I used to really think about magic in asoiaf. Per GRRM, there is no magic system in asoiaf. As GRRM puts it: it is dangerous, mysterious and unpredictable.

There are ways to do the same thing with different means.

Greenseers and children of the forest can use earth magic as "The Hammers of Waters" is actually "giants waking from earth" which is basically a earthquake. They can skinchange animals and have green dreams.

Others can raise dead as mooks and make ice weapons and armors and other stuff with ice. They can bring cold I guess.

Melisandre can burn her enemies' blood (she burnt Orell). Beric's blood burns too. The firemage in Qarth can make flowers and ladders made of fire. He can also walk on coals and wake fire from dragonglass (he also disappeared in mists which is WEIRD?).

Rhoynar water wizards and witches could bend water, yep. I also suspect that they could read the water as TWOIAF says Rhoyne often warned her children about the dangers. Water witches can also find water sources or make them bloom again, raise the river and make floods.

Bloodmages or maegi, can read the future by tasting blood. "Revive" a dead person or make human/animal hybrids by mating women with animals.

Shadowbinders can birth shadows (see Mel) and weave glamors (as a glamor is made of shadow and light, I reckon it is from Mel's shadowbinder training and not red priesstess)

Summoning winds seem like a basic magic that many sorcerers could learn lol. Melisandre, Moqorro, the warlocks all can do it.

Alys Rivers could read the fire, water and clouds. So my theory on Rhoynar holds water (punny) and it proves that air is a magical area.

For the wind/air magic we have; summoning favorable winds, reading clouds. When asked what a stormsinger is GRRM said it is a magical discipline in the East. We also hear of aeromancers in Asshai multiple times in both the main books and TWOIAF.

According to TWOIAF piests of Lion of Night, Bakkalon and Black Goat study magic too (they are mentioned in Asshai and Qohorik are interested in arcane we know that). So saying R'hllor is real because his priests have power is not enough.

Warlocks and the Undying a particular kind of magic I think. They have no connection with any classical elements. Warlocks with their shade of the evening receive prophetic visions. Warlocks can call winds too. The Undying are magical vampires and functionally immortal (until they are not lol). Their home was spatically bended, it was far larger than it seemed.

Phantom tortosies carrying message, rats eating their own tail, a Pureborn's wife going mad after mocking a warlock are all suspected to be warlock magic.

Valyrians were good at fire and blood magic. They were dragonlords, able to control dragons. Shape earth like clay with dragonfire to make fantastic castles and roads. They also knew how to make and re-forge Valyrian steel. They also used glass candles. One slave in Meereen has tattoes of Valyrian glyphs which should give him skin as hard as steel so maybe they used to have magic like that.

I suspect they also knew spells to become immune to fire, I mean they were dragonlords after all. They might have spells to make themselves immune to diseases as Viserys believed Targaryens were so but I don't know it is a pet theory of mine.

Alchemists in Lys, Tyrosh and King's Landing are mentioned. It is magic science. They know how to make stuff. Tears of Lys, the strangler, wildfire and different colors from snails (mentioned in Tyrosh section in TWOIAF).

Mel knows how to make powders. Her powders can show her truth (lie detection, she says to Davos that she would know if he lies); others powders are for lust and fear (Mirri Maz Duur is suspected to use fear one in agot. Dany filled with terror when Mirri threw a red powder in fire and Eriah fled in terror).

We also hear about the shapechangers in the East. I believe they also use Faceless Men's technique of changing face and voice. Of course, Faceless Men can change their faces/voices.

Necromancers are mentioned various times, Qyburn is one. He could make zombies from dead, basically. Necromancers are found in Qohor, Asshai and Nefer. Thoros could use the kiss of life to bring the dead back, Beric too. Note that kiss of fire is the only type of resurrection that brings people as people.

Melisandre and Moqorro don't need basic needs to survive like food, water or sleep.

An overlooked detail in TWOIAF is that Summer Islanders make their ship wood harder with magics.

You seem to have an exhaustive knowledge of the different kinds of magic.  Kudos for being able to remember all that!  Am I right in saying you think these are more or less discrete instances with no underlying principle involved?

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9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I put aSoIaF magic on the same basis as quantum physics: unknowable, unmeasurable but capable of producing real change in the perceivable world. It appears that there are five kinds of magic in Martin's world: fire, blood, water (ice), earth and shadow. Whether you consider all of these to be "life potent" is up to interpretation, particularly when it comes to shadow magic (maybe as the anti-life variety?), but I think any attempt to understand it beyond that point goes against the grain of Martin's literary intent.

I havd to disagree it would go beyond his literary intent.  He's not creating a magic system like Sanderson does, for instance, with mathematical precision in rules and how much of this equals how much magic from that.  But as with many fantasy writers, he seems to have an organizing principle and touchstone for magic in Westeros, so that most discrete incidents can be measured or understood within that context.  There is absolutely nothing unliterary about doing this so perhaps I am misunderstanding.

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9 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

Very interesting thread. Excited to watch this develop. I don’t have any particular theory regarding this topic but am highly interested in others!

Me too.  But you must have noticed something that made you wonder or put two and two together?  Spitball it if so.  The more ideas the better imo!

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4 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:
Quote

Great stuff,  m'Lady.   Wow.  (Especially the part about how magic passed through bloodlines is not being properly paid for and adds to the imbalance/instability

Oh cool, I'm glad you liked that bit.  It's really just a suspicion but might tie in with your own theory below indirectly.

Quote

The universal leeching quality of spells applies to shade of the evening drinkers as well.  The drink that adds to their potency is subtracting something from them too like it's from the meth family.  But i hadn't applied magical  leaching to greyscale sufferers!   And it's been so long since I'd been creeped out by the grass that its inclusion felt new as well

I think this idea of magical leeching might be somewhat original to me as I haven't seen it before but it does seem endemic once you reframe your viewpoint to look at it that way.  I wasn't even thinking about the Undying but you're absolutely right.  Thank you for that image of meth users.

I

Quote

I keep coming back to the notion of magical poles for the planet, like the magnetosphere has these two places at Asshai and IceNorth where it attaches to the planet and dives into the mantle and connects to the spinning core.  But the cosmic energies being largely kept out from the rest of the globe are able to ride those waves of force down too until they collect around these weak points in the planet's armor, ultimately touching down upon the surface and beginning to interact with ghost grass or dead bodies in the way Lovecraft showed us in The Colour from Outer Space.  That'd be my explanation for Why we have Asshai and the Deep North.  And the contamination spreads outward from there.

Now this is really interesting to me because I just had a short conversation with wia @wia about this on another thread.  She too thinks the poles might be responsible for the inconsistent seasons; she felt that possibly ice and fire magic poles had replaced the planet's magnetic ones. Not tinfoil, because a number of times I've seen characters lay out sticks or something, and say from "North to South, from Ice to Fire". So the characters themselves see a direct correlation. But it doesn't quite fit because both poles should be icy, so we're thinking pole to core instead.

My own notion is that we could perhaps name these poles/core the Heart of Winter and the Heart of Summer and see them as concentrated magical energy at the North Pole (Ice) and Valyria (molten inner core -fire).  And this is what's interesting here; these magical elemental energies have been incorporated to bloodlines, the Others and the Valyrians.  A symbiotic bond so they move. Currently, with Valyria dead and Dany just having re-awakened dragons, she is the Heart of Summer.  So all this fire magic is rising again with that rebirth, released from the core through Dany.

All fascinating.  I think we're on the right track whatever our interpretation.  Ice and Fire magic are the two elements that more than others, rule the earth's spin. Poles and core  and they've been messed with.

 

4 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

 

Quote

Sadly  this means any real Balancing would entail closing these doors to hell at the poles and leaving a mostly magicless (boring) world behind as the "successful" conclusion of ice&fire history?  Who wants that?  I dislike it when the ending of a series kills off the most interesting aspects of the writer's world.   Maybe I'll hope for something less than a true balancing of the Magic Equation then.

Yes that would be sad.  My own scenario is not much better.  To me, magic is an intrinsic force to Westeros.  Kill it, close those doors, as you say, and you would actually kill the planet.  But to preserve or right magic's balance, in order for the seasons to lose their wobble, means destroying the bonds of ice and fire magic and their human fire made flesh and ice made flesh counterparts.  The complete destruction of Valyrians and Others and any who share those reservoir bloodlines.

 

 

4 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:
Quote

The Children seemto know whom they're talking to when they make their sacrificial pacts to alter the course of world history.  They get something very specific in return for those "natural" catastrophies, i bet.  Whereas the rest of us mere mortals are flailing around with our spells, imagining some gods and slapping their names onto the more real phenomenon. As we intuit our way into casting spells (i.e. as our brainwaves are reordered by the cosmic power we're exposing ourselves to, we gain insight into the physics of magic, and we think, "Maybe when I immolate myself it'll turn out better this time than the last few Targaryens who tried, because i really feel ready, like it's my time, you know?"  And then someone Stormborn hits upon the right specifics and succeeds at the ritual of reforging the Fire Bond that merges Life with the elemental magic,  and fire is made flesh and the dragons are quickened in their eggs. 

Yeah, totally buy it and maybe my bloodline reservoir is a no-goer.  Certainly, this flailing around seems to be behind greyscale and Asshai and ghost grass.

 

 

Quote

because Something reached out from the other side with enough nuance, and Someone on this side was a sturdy and proper enough vessel to contain magic's Touch , so that Daenerys' instinctive mind was able to feel its way into synchronicity with magic, without going

totally insane- - which is a definite plus.

 

 

For sure!

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