honorable men Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 He pits his daughter (and heir) against Quentyn more than once. They are both sent to dangerous War Zones without proper precautions & preparations. Most importantly, he failed to communicate properly with his kids. He sends the most bloodthirsty sand snake to take the Martell seat on the counsel. He sends the oldest after Dark Stark with Aero and Balon Swann (he clearly didnt attack Myrcella). I just don't think the solution to Westeros problems is Dornish Law imo. Clearly Doran is playing the game of thrones but sometimes I wonder, what winning truly looks like at this stage to Doran. Until further material is release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 He's in a bind because if he played his cards right there'd be nothing to read about in the Dorne chapters? And we wouldn't need the heroes if his stealthy moves succeeded at taking down the Lann clan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted October 18, 2018 Share Posted October 18, 2018 It is the same as sending your children out into the world to start life. Qentyn was sent off to the armed services while Arianne was off to college. They have to find their place like any children leaving the nest of their parents. Doran isn't the only one to send his children into danger. See Waymar Royce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 He also seems to enjoy watching his youngest son, who's almost a teenager and has likely played Cyvass for years, lose to a 10 year old beginner in Cyvass over and over. Then you have his wife, who he pissed off so much she moved to another continent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Sidious Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Doran has that irritatingly calm demeanor that put off people. His propensity to manipulate will turn many women off. Being stuck in that chair with nothing to do is not good. He has nothing to do but plot. It isn't healthy for the mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Doran has nothing but failures in his resume... it's not just about his kids. During Robert's Rebellion he only sends 10k with Rhaegar. If he had send all his troops he may have changed the trident and saved his sister... he choosed "caution" and let the rebels won. His plan of revenge was to support a begger king, but he never send him any real support, I doubt that even Viserys new of such deal, then Viserys died and Doran was left with nothing. When the war of the 5 king broke out, once again he had the chance to get his revenge, his target was fighting the whole realm, it was the perfect time to get his revenge, instead he once again choose caution(cowardice) and let the Lannisters win the war and grew even more strong. He never trusted his heir with his plans, and ambition to the point he alienated her so much she tried a coup against him. His wife abandoned him, his brother went to KL got involved in a kingslayer trial and got killed, he send his son into a suicide mission in Essos, and now he is sending Arianne into another mission. As a lord he let his brother piss of his strongest bannerman, and had to send his son as hostage in compensation. One of his bannerman almost killed his daughter in law, his heir tried a coup against him. Doran seems a complete failure and until he shows something, it's hard to take him seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmfn Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 49 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said: Doran has nothing but failures in his resume... it's not just about his kids. During Robert's Rebellion he only sends 10k with Rhaegar. If he had send all his troops he may have changed the trident and saved his sister... he choosed "caution" and let the rebels won. His plan of revenge was to support a begger king, but he never send him any real support, I doubt that even Viserys new of such deal, then Viserys died and Doran was left with nothing. When the war of the 5 king broke out, once again he had the chance to get his revenge, his target was fighting the whole realm, it was the perfect time to get his revenge, instead he once again choose caution(cowardice) and let the Lannisters win the war and grew even more strong. He never trusted his heir with his plans, and ambition to the point he alienated her so much she tried a coup against him. His wife abandoned him, his brother went to KL got involved in a kingslayer trial and got killed, he send his son into a suicide mission in Essos, and now he is sending Arianne into another mission. As a lord he let his brother piss of his strongest bannerman, and had to send his son as hostage in compensation. One of his bannerman almost killed his daughter in law, his heir tried a coup against him. Doran seems a complete failure and until he shows something, it's hard to take him seriously. I agree. And as stated in the OP, what would "winning" really be at this point? Seems like his best prospect is his daughter becoming queen, but Doran more than anyone, should recognize how little value it can be being related to the royal family when another civil war is inevitable. Even if Quentyn was successful it would likely result in a brother VS sister fight for the throne. I know GRRM likes a twist, and I'm assuming something is coming, but so far I'm not looking to Dorne for answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 2 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Doran has nothing but failures in his resume... it's not just about his kids. During Robert's Rebellion he only sends 10k with Rhaegar. If he had send all his troops he may have changed the trident and saved his sister... he choosed "caution" and let the rebels won. His plan of revenge was to support a begger king, but he never send him any real support, I doubt that even Viserys new of such deal, then Viserys died and Doran was left with nothing. When the war of the 5 king broke out, once again he had the chance to get his revenge, his target was fighting the whole realm, it was the perfect time to get his revenge, instead he once again choose caution(cowardice) and let the Lannisters win the war and grew even more strong. He never trusted his heir with his plans, and ambition to the point he alienated her so much she tried a coup against him. His wife abandoned him, his brother went to KL got involved in a kingslayer trial and got killed, he send his son into a suicide mission in Essos, and now he is sending Arianne into another mission. As a lord he let his brother piss of his strongest bannerman, and had to send his son as hostage in compensation. One of his bannerman almost killed his daughter in law, his heir tried a coup against him. Doran seems a complete failure and until he shows something, it's hard to take him seriously. Do we realy know he has many more ? Plus like robb it might have been as much as he could muster quickly He didnt but any overt support could have tipped off others and with varys viserys was never in any real danger His plan during the wot5k was to strike tywin and gregor precisely not their armies alone ,thats what the viper had obviously prepped for Why would he ? until he humbled her she was a huge liability ,look at who she brings into her coup! As hotah correctly said ''some one talked....someone always talks'' His wife leaves him yes but it was a short lived marriage of passion The viper going to kl was the plan, he failed to execute it correctly yes but bear in mind he was seconds from a victory that might have torn lannisters apart! And may have posioned tywin already if you believe that theory As lord he doesnt have that much control vassals and kin will fight duels of honour as is their right ...as their lord he has no right to interfere,feudalism doesnt give him that much power to interfere in personal matters between lords. Once killed he needed that bannerman as ally not enemy so sent his son away....fine the son would normaly be fostered at a strong bannermans household anyway! Overall his story seems.to be of best laid plans alter with time and circumstance but that doesnt mean hes a failure or that he wasnt close to suceeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Do we realy know he has many more ? Plus like robb it might have been as much as he could muster quickly Oberyn still wanted to keep fighting after KL fall, so they still had strenght. GRRM also says that Dorne has the same strenght of the north and the vale. Dorne needed much less time to gather their strenght than the north, and even there, Doran had the entire war to do it... 25 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: He didnt but any overt support could have tipped off others and with varys viserys was never in any real danger Lord Darry died and let Viserys alone with his baby sister to live for themselfs, the guy gained the nickname of beggar... if he isn't needing support in this situation, when would he ? Things got so bad he had to sell everything of value he had. 27 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: His plan during the wot5k was to strike tywin and gregor precisely not their armies alone ,thats what the viper had obviously prepped for No it wasn't. he never had any plan during this period and got content with whatever bone the Lannisters threw at him. And he wasn't trying to kill Tywin as he says himself. “You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure. I take some small solace in knowing that he died a cruel death at the hands of the monster that he himself begot. I doubt that he could strip Tywin of all he held without getting in a war. 30 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Why would he ? until he humbled her she was a huge liability ,look at who she brings into her coup! As hotah correctly said ''some one talked....someone always talks'' She is his heir. She should have be told of what was happening, just like Manderly is doing with his grandaughter. The fact that he let the situation get to a point where she tries a coup is enough to show that he is incompetent. 32 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: The viper going to kl was the plan, he failed to execute it correctly yes but bear in mind he was seconds from a victory that might have torn lannisters apart! And may have posioned tywin already if you believe that theory He wasn't trying to kill Tywin, as mentioned already. 33 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: As lord he doesnt have that much control vassals and kin will fight duels of honour as is their right ...as their lord he has no right to interfere,feudalism doesnt give him that much power to interfere in personal matters between lords. Once killed he needed that bannerman as ally not enemy so sent his son away....fine the son would normaly be fostered at a strong bannermans household anyway! If he does not have control of his daughter, he does not have control of his young brother and he does not have control of his bannerman, than he is a terrible lord. 35 minutes ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Overall his story seems.to be of best laid plans alter with time and circumstance but that doesnt mean hes a failure or that he wasnt close to suceeding He does not have any big sucess so far. He talk a lot but hasn't done anything that is worth note yet. He says he is caution, but I hear craven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 Well, first of all, we don’t know yet whether his plans will work. The game’s still being played, and he is still very much in it. Given that everyone else who marched against the Lannisters, which is the course you’re suggesting, is either dead or suffered major setbacks, you could argue his strategy, at least for now, has been better than many others’. I think the issue is that he’s not just looking for the downfall of the Lannisters. His aim is a Targaryen restoration. If he’d marched off straight away during the Wo5K, it would have been to the benefit of one of the Baratheon brothers (whether he declared for them officially or not). He’s opposed to the Baratheon dynasty. He may blame Tywin primarily for the death of his sister, but I doubt that he considered Robert completely blameless. If your aim is to restore the Targaryens to the IT, then sitting it out, reserving your strength, and letting all your rivals destroy each other; is the sensible thing to do. Look at the balance of forces now – the Lannisters are a spent force; the Tyrells are up to their neck in trouble; the North is broken and essentially in a civil war; Renly is dead; Stannis is entangled in the North. Along with the Vale, Dorne is the only one of the kingdoms that is still at full strength. They’re in a position to be major power brokers going forwards, and either Dany or Aegon will give up a great deal for their support. As to his kids – obviously the Quentyn thing didn’t exactly go well, but Doran was aware it was a roll of the dice. Pretty much every lord we see puts his sons in the path of danger at some point. This is a martial culture. In the case of Arrianne, well yes she did plan a coup, but I don’t know how serious a threat that was. The only people she definitely won over were a gang of unserious youths. It may have been dangerous if she had progressed with her plans, but he stopped her at its earliest stage. Her attempted “coup” amounted to nothing more than a ride through the desert (though I’ll grant you, it ended in something of a bloody omnishambles). Anyway he nipped it in the bud, and turned her into one of his most vocal supporters, and helped him win over the Sandsnakes. All’s well that ends well. Like I said, we’ll have to see whether he comes out on top at the end, but he’s in a better position than most who started in prime position at the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 7 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: Oberyn still wanted to keep fighting after KL fall, so they still had strenght. GRRM also says that Dorne has the same strenght of the north and the vale. Dorne needed much less time to gather their strenght than the north, and even there, Doran had the entire war to do it... Lord Darry died and let Viserys alone with his baby sister to live for themselfs, the guy gained the nickname of beggar... if he isn't needing support in this situation, when would he ? Things got so bad he had to sell everything of value he had. No it wasn't. he never had any plan during this period and got content with whatever bone the Lannisters threw at him. And he wasn't trying to kill Tywin as he says himself. “You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children. It was my hope to strip him of all that he held most dear before I killed him, but it would seem his dwarf son has robbed me of that pleasure. I take some small solace in knowing that he died a cruel death at the hands of the monster that he himself begot. I doubt that he could strip Tywin of all he held without getting in a war. She is his heir. She should have be told of what was happening, just like Manderly is doing with his grandaughter. The fact that he let the situation get to a point where she tries a coup is enough to show that he is incompetent. He wasn't trying to kill Tywin, as mentioned already. If he does not have control of his daughter, he does not have control of his young brother and he does not have control of his bannerman, than he is a terrible lord. He does not have any big sucess so far. He talk a lot but hasn't done anything that is worth note yet. He says he is caution, but I hear craven. After kl fall it was all over itd have been 4- 5 kingdoms vs 2 What makes you think they take massively less time ? Their lands are dessert its not easily crossed quickly Again varys had them covered ,they were never in any real danger only their pride That was a hope as anyone would wish on their enemies but not his plan ,his plan clearly involved letting the viper wreck havoc at kl Nope she and her entourage are clearly unstable (hence coup and coup leaks and whatever darkstars plan is) bear in mind the coup only comes about due to a complete fluke of arianne seeing private corresepondence too Nonsense he has some.control as lord but hes not all powerful,its a feudal system remember not some modern dictatorship (or somewhere inbetween ala tywin) ,his brother is free to bed who he pleases and his bannerman was well within his rights to demand combat after catching his woman with the viper Craven and caution are 2 sides of the same coin,so far his main plan was seconds away from an incredble victory that woulda left lannisters in chaos! He is now moving pieces into place again through the sandsnakes could all bear fruit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said: I think the issue is that he’s not just looking for the downfall of the Lannisters. His aim is a Targaryen restoration. If he’d marched off straight away during the Wo5K, it would have been to the benefit of one of the Baratheon brothers (whether he declared for them officially or not). He’s opposed to the Baratheon dynasty. He may blame Tywin primarily for the death of his sister, but I doubt that he considered Robert completely blameless. If your aim is to restore the Targaryens to the IT, then sitting it out, reserving your strength, and letting all your rivals destroy each other; is the sensible thing to do. Look at the balance of forces now – the Lannisters are a spent force; the Tyrells are up to their neck in trouble; the North is broken and essentially in a civil war; Renly is dead; Stannis is entangled in the North. Along with the Vale, Dorne is the only one of the kingdoms that is still at full strength. They’re in a position to be major power brokers going forwards, and either Dany or Aegon will give up a great deal for their support. I always saw the whole Targeryen restoration, more as a path to get his revenge then his end goal. I agree with you that he see Robert as responsable for Elia, but Robert already was dead when the WoT5K started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Peres Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 2 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: After kl fall it was all over itd have been 4- 5 kingdoms vs 2 What makes you think they take massively less time ? Their lands are dessert its not easily crossed quickly When Robb calls the Northern Banners he gathers a host of about 18 thousand men. How do Dorne and the Vale compare to this (I don't expect numbers, just general feeling) I'd say these three kingdoms were roughly equal in the force they could assemble... but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords. 2 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Again varys had them covered ,they were never in any real danger only their pride Viserys got killed in the end. 2 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: That was a hope as anyone would wish on their enemies but not his plan ,his plan clearly involved letting the viper wreck havoc at kl From where do you get that this is his plan? If Oberyn tried anything was by his own account, Doran even when he reveal himself does not says anything about it. 2 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Nope she and her entourage are clearly unstable (hence coup and coup leaks and whatever darkstars plan is) bear in mind the coup only comes about due to a complete fluke of arianne seeing private corresepondence too She found out a letter of her father trying to pass her over in the sucession line, Doran reject proposal of bethrothal with Edmure, but then paired her with old man after old man. As lady she should keep her maidenhood, but even when she lost it to a bastard, trying to get a reaction from him he did nothing... If she grew to be unstable is his fault, another one to add to the list of his failures. 2 hours ago, hodorisfaclessman said: Nonsense he has some.control as lord but hes not all powerful,its a feudal system remember not some modern dictatorship (or somewhere inbetween ala tywin) ,his brother is free to bed who he pleases and his bannerman was well within his rights to demand combat after catching his woman with the viper Hoster tried to marry off Brynden. I doubt he would try to force it upon his brother if he hadn't the authoritive. Doran was the head of his family, he should be able to control them. Instead he let him run wild and cause even more trouble. Oberyn still being single should also be saw as a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted October 19, 2018 Share Posted October 19, 2018 This is one of those weird topics where I find myself agreeing with both sides of the argument. I like Doran. I liked Oberyn. I can't stand Arienne and thought Quentyn was a stone fool. Tristane seems to be an OK kid and the Sand Snakes are interesting, if only 2 dimensional characters. I wonder if this is a case of the parents of the parents simply being better parents? Doran's long term plan is frustrating because we get so little of it. And yes, there is this really nasty mean reader inside me that hopes he's just trying to get rid of all these unworthy kids. Still Doran seems very sure of his plan despite having to change it to include the deployment of all these crazy kids. There is a part early on in the Dorne story where Sarella is said to be playing her own game. Really? Are they permitted to have their own games? I doubt it. Sarella seems to be the only level-headed member of the younger generation. She's playing her own comparatively long game. I would be surprised to find she isn't up to something on Doran's behalf. The worst part of rooting for Doran's success is knowing that these kids will screw him up and/or that they will all have to die, leaving no heir at all, for any success to come for his plan. This will devastate him. It's a vicious cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralphis Baratheon Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Curled Finger said: There is a part early on in the Dorne story where Sarella is said to be playing her own game. Really? Are they permitted to have their own games? I doubt it. Sarella seems to be the only level-headed member of the younger generation. She's playing her own comparatively long game. Out of all the Martell/Sand children I think Seralla has the best chance at success. She appears to be the smartest among them and Doran seems not to have much involvement or control in her schemes, as far as we know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ralphis Baratheon said: Out of all the Martell/Sand children I think Seralla has the best chance at success. She appears to be the smartest among them and Doran seems not to have much involvement or control in her schemes, as far as we know. That actually occurred to me as I was typing and sort of worked itself out as maybe she is the only one who can pull off the patience game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 Well, we obviously don't know Doran plans, and we're not supposed to know, and no-one he has spoken to within our hearing knows the whole story. He has excellent reasons for distrusting Arianne. She is ambitious, disloyal, bloodthirsty and amoral. She does not quite stoop to Sand-snake levels of viciousness, and does not quite like to see small children butchered after she eagerly puts them in harms way, but that is not to say not much at all. Quentyn is another story. He seems to have virtues, including loyalty, that Arianne lacks. Doran sees a certain irony in this. Part of that irony, I think, is that Doran seems to have little loyalty to Quentyn. I think there is more to this story, that we are not supposed to know yet. He has, I suppose, just sent Balon Swann to get butchered by the combined forces of Obara and Darkstar. The idea that he would wage war on Darkstar at a time like this is obvious nonsense. Currently, he seems to be moving toward placing Young Griff on the Iron Throne, a secret plan he has shared with no-one. Why he is more loyal to his (fake?) nephew than to his (real?) son, is a question to ponder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 24 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: Well, we obviously don't know Doran plans, and we're not supposed to know, and no-one he has spoken to within our hearing knows the whole story. He has excellent reasons for distrusting Arianne. She is ambitious, disloyal, bloodthirsty and amoral. She does not quite stoop to Sand-snake levels of viciousness, and does not quite like to see small children butchered after she eagerly puts them in harms way, but that is not to say not much at all. That’s on Doran for leaving out that letter that indicated that he was intent on replacing her with Quentyn as heir to Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 4 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: That’s on Doran for leaving out that letter that indicated that he was intent on replacing her with Quentyn as heir to Dorne. Is it not on her at all? "I want it all for me" would not normally be considered an excellent excuse for inciting bloody rebellion against one's own father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said: When Robb calls the Northern Banners he gathers a host of about 18 thousand men. How do Dorne and the Vale compare to this (I don't expect numbers, just general feeling) I'd say these three kingdoms were roughly equal in the force they could assemble... but the north is much bigger, so it takes longer for an army to gather. And life is harsher there as well, so lords and smallfolk both need to think carefully before beating those plowshares into swords. Viserys got killed in the end. From where do you get that this is his plan? If Oberyn tried anything was by his own account, Doran even when he reveal himself does not says anything about it. She found out a letter of her father trying to pass her over in the sucession line, Doran reject proposal of bethrothal with Edmure, but then paired her with old man after old man. As lady she should keep her maidenhood, but even when she lost it to a bastard, trying to get a reaction from him he did nothing... If she grew to be unstable is his fault, another one to add to the list of his failures. Hoster tried to marry off Brynden. I doubt he would try to force it upon his brother if he hadn't the authoritive. Doran was the head of his family, he should be able to control them. Instead he let him run wild and cause even more trouble. Oberyn still being single should also be saw as a mistake. Heat is just as harsh as cold , dornes bannermen must rally in areas cut off by dessert which cant be crossed quickly On the grasslands he was outta varys reach They clearly had a joint plan man thats the entire point of dorans big reveal about a snake and the grass She found that by fluke .....and by your measure then all lords are failures as most hhave unruly kids even ned He had the authority to arrange a bethrothal but brynden had the right to refuse (but be cut off from family wealth) outside of marriage who they bed is their own buisness...hes not tywin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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