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Why is Doran making terrible mistakes concerning his kids?

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He's straddling the line between doing right by Dorne and giving in to his family's wishes. He wants to avenge Oberyn and Elia, but knows that the ensuing drama will devastate Dorne. By avoiding conflict, he has allowed to Dorne to remain safe and prosperous throughout the War of the Five Kings, but in his heart he wants revenge, and he is also facing intense pressure from his daughter and nieces. This has prevented him from fully following through with either path--he's made marriage alliances and sent his children to seek out Targaryens, but he hasn't yet provided the right resources to truly give them the support they need to take the Iron Throne, thus rendering these alliances futile. 

Dorne has been at peace for nearly twenty years thanks solely to Doran's caution and selflessness as a leader. As he urges further away from the safety of his people to indulging the pride of his family, we will see that peace crumble. 

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Doran is an agent and a pawn of evil, in a devilish cycle of destructive vengeance.  Remember the symbolism of the blood oranges.  Just because he is quiet and subtle does not mean he does not deal in poison.  It surprises me that so many readers think he is some kind of nice guy, just because he does not present himself as obviously foaming at the mount. 

Edited by Platypus Rex

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On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 5:31 PM, Arthur Peres said:

I always saw the whole Targeryen restoration, more as a path to get his revenge then his end goal.

Yes, but it's still the strategy he embarked upon. He doesn’t just want the destruction of his enemies, he also aims to restore the Targaryens. To be fair, that’s pretty responsible. His aim isn’t just to destroy the Lannisters, he also has a plan for who to replace them with, and it isn’t Stannis or Renly.

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On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 4:09 AM, Platypus Rex said:

Is it not on her at all?  "I want it all for me" would not normally be considered an excellent excuse for inciting bloody rebellion against one's own father.

But, you've never been an heir, who has been (as far as she knows) removed from the Succession.

That is no light matter.  Rulers don't keep people around who have better claims to the Throne than they have.   And, as far as Arianne knows, she's not even been allowed to achieve a decent marriage.  She thinks her future is a very bleak one.  Marriage to an obscure lord at best;  imprisonment, or exile, maybe even execution, at worst.

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30 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, you've never been an heir, who has been (as far as she knows) removed from the Succession.

That is no light matter.  Rulers don't keep people around who have better claims to the Throne than they have.   And, as far as Arianne knows, she's not even been allowed to achieve a decent marriage.  She thinks her future is a very bleak one.  Marriage to an obscure lord at best;  imprisonment, or exile, maybe even execution, at worst.

Yes, she thinks she has legitimate grievances.

However, how she handles it is pretty poor, and it proves, in a way, that Doran was probably right keeping things from her – she shows a shocking lack of judgement and maturity.

If you think that you’re going to be removed as heir, trying to launch a coup the way she did is ridiculous. She was going to plunge Dorne into war with the Lannisters and the Tyrells (if she got her way), and the plan to make Mycella queen was ridiculous. Who would rally to that idea outside of Dorne?

Furthermore, sneaking off with Mycella and a handful of friends before securing any support from any of the lords was madness.  

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40 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes, she thinks she has legitimate grievances.

However, how she handles it is pretty poor, and it proves, in a way, that Doran was probably right keeping things from her – she shows a shocking lack of judgement and maturity.

If you think that you’re going to be removed as heir, trying to launch a coup the way she did is ridiculous. She was going to plunge Dorne into war with the Lannisters and the Tyrells (if she got her way), and the plan to make Mycella queen was ridiculous. Who would rally to that idea outside of Dorne?

Furthermore, sneaking off with Mycella and a handful of friends before securing any support from any of the lords was madness.  

Well, the fault is Doran's.  Either he has to be willing to share secrets with his heir, (after all, he could drop dead tomorrow) or (if he thinks she's a complete liability to House Martell) get rid of her. 

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6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Well, the fault is Doran's.  Either he has to be willing to share secrets with his heir, (after all, he could drop dead tomorrow) or (if he thinks she's a complete liability to House Martell) get rid of her. 

How about a happy medium, which would be to only let her know when she’s ready. She’s still young and can learn (she proves that eventually), so making the decision to “get rid of her” would be somewhat drastic.

It’s clear his plan was to let her in on it eventually (how could he not?), but she was too indiscrete to be told before things were sufficiently in motion. If anyone had found out what he was planning – Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn – they would have been crushed.

I think his biggest failure (that we know of, so far), was not finding a way to keep her onside despite being in the dark. He wasn’t to know she read (and misinterpreted) the letter though.  

 

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The other childish thing about what she did, is that she thought he was going to remove her as heir, and her response was to attempt a coup. The more sensible thing to do would be to confront him about it, and find out what he meant in that letter.  

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22 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

How about a happy medium, which would be to only let her know when she’s ready. She’s still young and can learn (she proves that eventually), so making the decision to “get rid of her” would be somewhat drastic.

It’s clear his plan was to let her in on it eventually (how could he not?), but she was too indiscrete to be told before things were sufficiently in motion. If anyone had found out what he was planning – Robert, Tywin, Jon Arryn – they would have been crushed.

I think his biggest failure (that we know of, so far), was not finding a way to keep her onside despite being in the dark. He wasn’t to know she read (and misinterpreted) the letter though.  

 

It's chicken and egg.  If the only job she's given is party-planning, she's never going to learn anything.

 

5 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

The other childish thing about what she did, is that she thought he was going to remove her as heir, and her response was to attempt a coup. The more sensible thing to do would be to confront him about it, and find out what he meant in that letter.  

That would have been the best option.  But, if you think your father has disinherited you, you might fear what he would do to you if you confronted him over it.

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14 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's chicken and egg.  If the only job she's given is party-planning, she's never going to learn anything.

Mayhaps, but the flip side of that is that she should try to display her worth if she wants more responsibilities. Still, you’re right, the argument could go either way.

16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

That would have been the best option.  But, if you think your father has disinherited you, you might fear what he would do to you if you confronted him over it.

Again, maybe - that was clearly her line of thinking.

However, given she had known about the letter for so long, her planning was atrocious. To keep it bottled up for so long, then just go off half-cock like that. She was clearly popular in Sunspear and in Dorne as a whole – why not build up a base of support amongst the lords so that you couldn’t be removed even if that’s what Doran wanted?

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14 minutes ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Mayhaps, but the flip side of that is that she should try to display her worth if she wants more responsibilities. Still, you’re right, the argument could go either way.

Again, maybe - that was clearly her line of thinking.

However, given she had known about the letter for so long, her planning was atrocious. To keep it bottled up for so long, then just go off half-cock like that. She was clearly popular in Sunspear and in Dorne as a whole – why not build up a base of support amongst the lords so that you couldn’t be removed even if that’s what Doran wanted?

You might enjoy the Trial by Folly reread thread, from 2014/2015, started by @chebyshov, which goes into great detail about Arianne's character and motivations.

 

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You might enjoy the Trial by Folly reread thread, from 2014/2015, started by @chebyshov, which goes into great detail about Arianne's character and motivations.

Thanks. I’ll be honest, I always thought Arianne was a pretty obvious character, I’ve never really had much interest in her.   

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1 minute ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Thanks. I’ll be honest, I always thought Arianne was a pretty obvious character, I’ve never really had much interest in her.   

I used to think so, but @Chebyshov & Co. convinced me otherwise.

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Doran has failed in making his family last. Quentyn’s dead (unless you can find Qyburn), Arianne is likely viewed as a spinster (most women are married off by the age of 20; compare with Catelyn (18-19), Cersei (17), Lysa (16-17)), and Trystane has an attempt on his life coming down the pipe where Balon Swann will obey despite his misgivings.

He should have sent Quentyn to seek out Sansa in the Vale. Why?

  • Lysa Arryn is the only known family Sansa has left, which outside of Sansa’s POV would make sense for her to go, especially since Sansa doesn’t know how crazy Lysa is.
  • Martells want revenge on the Lannisters, Starks want revenge on the Lannisters. 
  • Quentyn and Sansa are actually kinda similar. Both are naive and well-meaning, and Sansa would like the idea of a prince/knight (Quentyn is both) looking for her; wouldn’t it be right out of a song?
  • Quentyn can at least handle himself on the road; a short trip from Planky Town to Gulltown; what’s the worst that could happen? ;)
Edited by Angel Eyes

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On 10/20/2018 at 4:37 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

Heat is just as harsh as cold , dornes bannermen must rally in areas cut off by dessert which cant be crossed quickly

The only mention of taking more time to gather it's strenght is about the north. Also the north is much bigger. For a umber to reach Moat Caillin would take much more time than any distance in Dorne. Doran also had much more time to gather his force than Robb had. Robb went south in a hurry, Doran sit in Dorne during the whole war and then only send 10k with Rhaegar after Aerys threat his sister.

On 10/20/2018 at 4:37 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

She found that by fluke .....and by your measure then all lords are failures as most hhave unruly kids even ned

Yeah, but it happened and he failed to read her and realize that she was trying to gain his attention. He never told her anything and let things get worse and worse.

 

On 10/20/2018 at 4:37 AM, hodorisfaclessman said:

They clearly had a joint plan man thats the entire point of dorans big reveal about a snake and the grass

Please show me the quote that points out such plan. Everything we know so far, the only plan he had was Viserys and that wasn't even put in pratice when ended.

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8 hours ago, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Yes, but it's still the strategy he embarked upon. He doesn’t just want the destruction of his enemies, he also aims to restore the Targaryens. To be fair, that’s pretty responsible. His aim isn’t just to destroy the Lannisters, he also has a plan for who to replace them with, and it isn’t Stannis or Renly.

Once Viserys died his whole plan went down before it was even put in motion.

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11 hours ago, SeanF said:

But, you've never been an heir, who has been (as far as she knows) removed from the Succession.

That is no light matter.  Rulers don't keep people around who have better claims to the Throne than they have.   And, as far as Arianne knows, she's not even been allowed to achieve a decent marriage.  She thinks her future is a very bleak one.  Marriage to an obscure lord at best;  imprisonment, or exile, maybe even execution, at worst.

Yeah.  Poor little spoiled rich girl.  Compared to her, the common folk don't have any problems at all.

This is no light matter, you say.  Do you mean that Arianne thinks Quentyn will murder or imprison her once he gets in power?  Or are you suggesting that Arianne will murder or imprison Quentyn once SHE gets in power.  Because the latter seems far more likely to me.  She, after all, is the paranoid power-hungry one.  Being a soft-hearted type, she'll probably try imprisoning him first, until something goes wrong due to her poor planning, and Quentyn ends up dying with half a face.

Should I be weeping over her marriage prospects?  Who does she want to marry?  Arianne does not even WANT marriage, as far as I can tell.  She wants to be Princess of Dorne after her gouty old uncle kicks the bucket, and then she can marry who she wants.  The only thing that worries her about Doran's not-very-forceful matchmaking, is the vague suggestion of the idea that Doran's actions are not entirely consistent with Arianne's power ambitions.  And how does Doran appease her?  By telling her that he planned to marry her to Viserys.  I'm not sure if Doran is telling the truth, here, but he sure knows what she wants to hear.  Viserys a good match?  Yes, she really is that ambitious, as well as that stupid, and Doran knows it.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Doran has failed in making his family last. Quentyn’s dead (unless you can find Qyburn),

While clearly unfortunate, Quentyn's death is not nearly as bad as you make out to House Martell. Children dying before their time was rife to important Houses in the middle ages. 

10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 

Arianne is likely viewed as a spinster (most women are married off by the age of 20; compare with Catelyn (18-19), Cersei (17), Lysa (16-17)), 

Another exaggeration. She is the same age as Elia when she was betrothed to Rhaegar. 

10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

He should have sent Quentyn to seek out Sansa in the Vale. Why?

There is zero indication  that Doran is aware that Sansa is in the Vale. 

10 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:
  • Lysa Arryn is the only known family Sansa has left, which outside of Sansa’s POV would make sense for her to go, especially since Sansa doesn’t know how crazy Lysa is.

And Lysa has sworn fealty to the Crown, Quentyn would stand out a mile in the Eyrie. 

 

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On 10/18/2018 at 9:33 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

He also seems to enjoy watching his youngest son, who's almost a teenager and has likely played Cyvass for years, lose to a 10 year old beginner in Cyvass over and over. Then you have his wife, who he pissed off so much she moved to another continent. 

:rofl:

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