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The Map Guy

R+L=J&M twins theory

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Hi everyone, I am that crazy map guy that suggested George Lucas was the reason why we have all these ASOIAF publication delays after AFFC in 2005.

I thought if I was able prove that Jon & Meera were actually twins, perhaps my tinfoil theory would have some truth to it.

I only listed some of my "R+L=J&M" book clues on the original Meereenese Knot @ TOJ thread, but I will display my WHOLE report on this thread, with no Star Wars mention.

 

I hope you guys find this LONG theory refreshingly interesting...whether you believe in R+L=J&M, or not...whether you believe George Lucas screwed over GRRM and the fandom, or not.

 

Background:

In the beginning, GRRM had big plans for Meera Reed's plot, until the Meereenese Knot of 2005/2011. In ADWD, GRRM stops writing for R+L=J&M, cuts the knot in half, and we have only R+L=J.

GRRM blames the publication delay on the stories occurring in Meereen…which IMO, were messy and a bit dull. The real reason is Meera Reed, but he could not publicly confirm this because it would reveal R+L=J too early.

 

HOWEVER, if GRRM wants to write R+L=J&M for TWOW, he can just pick up where he left off since he already laid the foundations of R+L=J&M in AGOT, ACOK & ASOS. I will be addressing these "foundations."  

 

Goal:

To provide evidence and clues to support that Meera Reed is indeed Lyanna's & Rhaegar's daughter, born at the Tower of Joy, twin to Jon Snow, raised separately by Howland Reed in Greywater Watch. I will use traditional investigation methods AND unconventional methods. 

 

To simplify this thread, let’s just assume R+L=J is true.

 

Hard Evidence:

What are the hard evidence that support R+L=J?

Jon was born during the conflict of Robert's Rebellion, and Ned was at TOJ, where Lyanna died in a bed of blood, suggesting it may be childbirth. Ned comes back to Winterfell with a mysterious baby.

 

What are the hard evidence that support R+L=J&M?

Meera was also born during the conflict of Robert's Rebellion, and Howland was also at TOJ with Ned & Lyanna.

 

Giving birth to twins is more difficult and more harmful than giving birth to a single baby.

Lyanna is a young and athletic woman. The odds of her dying in single childbirth should be less than Rhaella Targaryen (old) and Joanna Lannister (giving birth to a deformed dwarf baby).

However, Lyanna died anyways.

 

"Hard Evidence" like this is hardly debatable in real life or fantasy world.

 

Since ASOIAF is a fantasy world created by an author's mind, the writing techniques an author employs can provide us with clues too...like symbolism, imagery, foreshadowing, double meaning...etc.

 

"At the foot of the hall, the doors open and a gust of cold air made the torches brighter for an instant" - Meera's INTRODUCTION in (Bran III ACOK)

As readers, we overlooked probably one of the most important symbolic sentence in ASOIAF.

The chemical reaction of air cold as ice, mixing a hot flame of a fire...made it brighter...made the fire stronger...brought in more light.

The Prince that was Promised is said to be from a Song of Ice and Fire. Everyone is predicting it to be Jon Snow, son of Lyanna (ice) and Rhaegar (fire). Azor Ahai is supposed to wield a weapon called Light-bringer, and most people thinks it is Jon too.

We get the elements of TPTWP and Azor Ahai all in this one sentence introduction.

Maybe for GRRM, this introduction means nothing. Maybe it means everything. 

However, in real life, any gust of air would actually put out a torch, esp. in cold conditions. Did GRRM break the laws of nature to create a powerful symbolic introduction to Meera Reed?

 

Also in (Bran III ACOK):

"Howland Reed was a great friend to your father," Ser Rodrick told (Bran). "These two (Meera & Jojen) are his, it would seem"  

Key sentence: "It would seem." Is GRRM warning us that Meera & Jojen may not be who they seem to be?

 

The Lyanna, Arya and Meera Stark comparison:

Meera was never directly compared to Lyanna, but Arya was compared to Lyanna (by Ned in Arya II AGOT), and Meera was compared to Arya (by Bran in Bran IV ACOK).

Essentially all three of these females are slim, dark haired, tomboyish, athletic, strong-willed, defender of the weak, and a bit wild. Ned has dubbed this wildness as "wolf's blood" when he was comparing Arya & Lyanna. It sounds a lot like Meera's personality too. Lyanna was said to be beautiful. Meera's appearance have caught the attention of Bran, and the curiosity of Theon as they analyze pass Meera's terrible taste of fashion. Meera may be attractive, but not the traditional 'lady of a castle' type of attractiveness.

 

Lord Rickard's Sword:

Ned has said that Lyanna probably would have carried a sword if their father (Lord Rickard) had allowed it. (Ayra II AGOT)

What does Meera, daughter of Lyanna, do in the crypts of Winterfell? She grabs her mother's father's sword from his grave. (Bran VII ACOK)

GRRM even reminds us that Meera still has Bran's grandfather sword in ASOS. GRRM even uses the word "grandfather" along with Meera. (Bran I ASOS)

 

"But it was only a game, and Bran knew it" - Bran's thoughts about taking the swords. Let us analyze the sword stealing in the Winterfell crypts, 

  1. Bran grabs Brandon Stark's sword, because Bran was named after his uncle.
  2. Osha grabs Ned Stark's sword, because she will symbolically protect Rickon, Ned's last bloodline.
  3. Meera grabs Rickard Stark's sword.

IF Meera is NOT a Stark, what is the symbolism for her to carry that sword? If there is no meaningful symbolism for Meera, then Bran and Osha sword stealing should have no symbolic significance too.

Since Meera is a Stark, you get all three in the basket.

 

Knight of the Laughing Tree:

Long story short: Lyanna is the Knight of the Laughing Tree.

Earlier in the same ASOS chapter, Meera comforts Bran, who is upset that Old Nan probably died. 

"Remember Old Nan's stories, Bran. Remember the way she told them, the sound of her voice. So long as you do that, part of her will always be alive in you." Meera in (Bran II ASOS)

So what does Meera do later on in the chapter? She narrates the story of Lyanna & the Knight of the Laughing Tree...because her dead mother "will always be alive in" Meera. 

Meera would always remember "the sound of her voice", that "booming" voice when Lyanna was the KoLT.

 

Also with the story of the KoLT, I feel Howland Reed owes a lot to Lyanna for saving his life and defending his honor at the Tourney. Even though Howland was part of the rescue party for Lyanna at TOJ, Lyanna died. Howland did manage to save Ned's life, but he was unable to redeem himself for Lyanna. Unless.......Lyanna had a daughter and Howland raised her in Greywater Watch because King Bob would kill her if he found out. I say that is a fair redemption.

 

Hidden in Greywater Watch:

It moves around and outsiders cannot find it.

Ned feels that Meera is safe hiding at Greywater Watch. So safe, he never has to think about it. But with Jon, he has to be more careful in Winterfell.

 

"*blah blah blah*.... House Targaryen."

*next paragraph*

"Some secrets are safe hidden" [Meera hidden in Greywater Watch]

"Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust" [Jon Stark-Targaryen publicly in Winterfell & Ned does not even tell his own family]

- Ned's thoughts in (Ned VIII AGOT)

 

"If I went away...to Greywater, or to the crow, someplace far where they couldn't find me..."

- Bran saying Greywater is a great hiding place to not be found (Bran V ACOK)

 

Splitting the Stark Siblings:

After the sack of Winterfell, a dying Maester Ludwin suggested to split the Stark siblings, Bran and Rickon, so they will be harder to find. Meera happens to be in this group talking to a dying Ludwin. (Bran VII ACOK)

If R+L=J&M is true, then after the Tower of Joy, Jon & Meera, technically as Stark siblings, were split too so they will be harder to find. It may even be a promise requested by a dying Lyanna...quite the parallel.

 

Meera's Mirror on the Wall:

I always thought the name Meera Reed was supposed to be the "mirror read" to Jon Snow; how as twins, she mirrored him.

  • Jon climbs the Northern side of the Wall, and reaches the top with Ygritte. (Jon IV ASOS)
  • Meera climbs the Southern side of the wall while Bran wishing he could be on top with her. (Bran IV ASOS)

Jon & Meera symbolically "mirrored" each other at the Wall, an icy reflective surface. Even though they did not climb at the same time, it was only a couple chapters apart.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Jon & Meera are the only two people born south of the Wall to have climbed the Wall during the modern ASOIAF timeline.

 

Direwolf: 

I was asked a question that I thought was silly in regards to my first attempt at R+L=J&M. I was asked if Meera is a Stark, why doesn’t she have a direwolf? I kind of half-ass answered it by saying Meera and Bran can share Summer. After thinking about it, why not?

When Meera and Summer went 1v1 against each other in (Bran IV ACOK), Meera caught Summer with a net. By pokemon rules, Summer is hers to command. But realistically, it has been shown that Meera and Summer have developed a special bond over time, even though Summer is Bran's direwolf. Even after Meera caught the direwolf in the net, she laughed, cuddled, and rolled around the floor with Summer, while Summer was embarrassed.

 

' Who are "They" ' is the wrong question:

This has been discussed in a previous thread with heavy criticism, but I am still using it has my evidence. I will add one funny tweak to it that I did not do in the original thread.

" *Lyanna's sad death story.* After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it." (Eddard I AGOT)

For years, forum people are still looking for "They". Its Howland + Wylla, or Howland + wetnurse(s), or Howland + some stranger, it could be 5 people, it could be 20.....blah blah blah.

IMO, this is a very important moment for R+L=J or R+L=J&M at TOJ...this is our FIRST FLASHBACK and we get a super sad story of how Lyanna died in Ned's arms. WHO CARES about Howland or Wylla or whoever 'They' logistically represent.

And why is it worded that Howland takes her hand from his? Isn't it more appropriate for Howland to take Ned's hand away from his dead sister's hand?

My funny tweak: "You know nothing Jon Snow"... Jon Snow = Nothing

" *Lyanna's sad death story.* After that he remembered Jon Snow. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it." 

  • R+L=J version:

" *Lyanna's sad death story.* After that he remembered Jon Snow. [Ned & Howland] had found [Jon] still holding [Lyanna's] body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken [Lyanna's] hand from [Jon]. Ned could recall none of it [because he was talking to King Bob at the time]."

This re-tweaked version of the verse still makes sense. It eliminates the mysterious "They" that no one cares about, and it actually introduces us to baby Jon for the FIRST TIME. The universally accepted version of this verse at face value does not include baby Jon in the flashback. However, it still does not explain why Howland took "her" hands.

  • R+L=J&M version:

" *Lyanna's sad death story.* After that he remembered Jon Snow. [Ned & Howland] had found [Jon] still holding [Meera's] body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken [Meera's] hand from [Jon]. Ned could recall none of it [because he was talking to King Bob at the time]."  

This re-tweaked version introduces us to baby Jon AND baby Meera, no mysterious "They". Baby Jon is big spooning baby Meera, as if he was protecting her. They are sadden by their mother's death. In real life, babies do not understand stuff like that, but adults narrate feel-good stories of how baby react to certain things. (Example: Aww that baby is smiling because he is happy to see me. ........ No, that baby is probably smiling because he sees your shiny necklace.) Anyways, Howland takes baby Meera's hand from Jon's hand, symbolizing Howland will protect Meera now. Howland is given a task in R+L=J&M, instead of just being a witness in R+L=J, therefore his presence with Ned & Lyanna inside TOJ is much more valuable. All pronouns and issues are addressed in this version of the verse.

Even when we swap back “Jon Snow” for “nothing”, these re-tweaked verses still make sense, or as a double meaning to the face value story.

 

Green Eyes:

The biggest criticism for R+L=J&M is that Meera has green eyes.

There is one far-fetch theory in ADWD that may address why Meera Stark has green eyes.

Bran, with Stark blood, won the lottery of being one in a thousand wargs to also be a green seer.

In the next paragraph, they discuss the lottery of the Children of the Forest. The Children typically had golden eyes, but with rare cases of green or red.

Stark blood has some magic from the blood of Children of the Forest. Perhaps Meera, with Stark blood, won the lottery of having green eyes. 

 

The following is an unconventional analysis, but it puts the green eyes into question.

  • Jon is a proven Stark and a questionable Targaryen. If he had purple eyes, this would give away R+L=J immediately, so he was given grey eyes to hide the Targaryen feature.
  • Meera is a questionable Stark and a questionable Targaryen. GRRM cannot give her purple or grey eyes…or this R+L=J&M theory would have been strongly hypothesized decades ago in forums. GRRM gives her green eyes and represents her from Greywater Watch.

Greywatch Watch is arguably the most mysterious place south of the Wall in Westeros with humans. It is a magical place where green seers exist or use to exist.

Note the word play:

  • Greywater Watch ~ Grey eyes
  • Green-seers ~ Green eyes

Doesn't that seem suspicious? I'll give you a better one:

Greywater Watch is a mystical green swamp land with green water, green frogs, green plants, green this, green that...why is it not call Greenwater Watch?

The city's name is inconsistent with the rest of Westeros city names, where it would have a geographical reference (like Riverrun), a climate reference (Winterfell), or a historical reference (Casterly Rock). I know 'Greywater' may be a reference to an older work of GRRM, but it is a green swamp here...add the color 'green' to its name or it will not make sense. GRRM is doing something intentional here by hiding something in plain sight, but I can't pinpoint it. But Meera has green eyes, instead grey eyes, which would make R+L=J&M too obvious.

 

2019 UPDATE: PRINCESS ALYSSA TARGARYEN, Jon & Meera's x8 great-grandmother, has one green eye and one purple eye. That is enough to address the only hole in the R+L=J&M theory prior to the book Fire & Blood.

  

Unconventional Analysis:

 

Rhaegar's Metaphorical Ruby Treasure Map at the Trident:

In a previous thread, I was able to decipher the map GRRM drew for AGOT in 1996. It involves the significance of Rhaegar’s rubies dropping into the Trident as if they were blood, Targaryen blood.

I believe this Ruby Map theory is 110% intentional by GRRM. If it was an accident, the odds of connecting all these places are astronomical.

With this Ruby Map theory, when you buy one secret Targaryen twin theory (Jon & Meera), you get another one for free (Jaime & Cersei).

According to my deciphered map, Rhaegar metaphorical rubies are located:

  • 1 in Winterfell (Jon)
  • 1 in Greywater Watch (Meera)
  • 2 in Casterly Rock (Jaime & Cersei)
  • 2 in Dragonstone + Pentos (Daenerys and Viserys)

Let us use the original 1996 AGOT Map: https://imgur.com/9c4Sz4s

  • For Jon & Meera, let us follow the Green Fork of the Trident (where Rhaegar, Jon & Meera's father, died) North. The two metaphorical rubies of the river reach "The Twins" and then "separate". "The twins separate" is a wordplay in the deciphering the map. One ruby ends up at Greywater Watch (Meera) and the other points to Winterfell (Jon). This is not a coincidence because if you use the pointing technique on the rest of the Trident, it will point to other Targaryens, known or secret. 
  • On the west bank of the Trident, the Red Fork points TWICE to Casterly Rock (Jaime & Cersei).
  • Following the Blue Fork river EAST (before it reaches the Bay of Crabs aka the 'bay of crap', a decoy to mislead the pointing), its points to Dragonstone and Pentos on the same line (Daenerys & Viserys). It even points to Slaver's Bay after that.

This map was my very first clue in discovering the R+L=J&M, and this is my strongest evidence for it. But I know some of you guys would rather accept the astronomical coincidental odds than accept that it was intention by GRRM...or that this analysis is unacceptable because it not traditional. If so, so be it, it is your own opinion.

 

An excerpt from (Arya IX ASOS), the Hound says to Arya "The river was the Trident, girl [...] Make the map in your head if you can."

 

Also, a Trident is a weapon of three points. The Targaryens' sigil is the weapon of a dragon with three heads.

 

KoLT vs the porcupine knight, the pitchfork knight, and the knight of the two towers:

"[The squires] served a pitchfork knight, one a porcupine, while the last attended a knight with two towers on his surcoat, a sigil all crannogmen know well." - (Bran II ASOS)

Let us look at their sigils:

  •  The Pitchfork Knight = House Haigh

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Haigh/

Their sigil is a pitchfork or a ... "Trident"

  • The Porcupine Knight = House Blout

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Blount/

It is TWO identical black porcupines, "separated" with a red stripe, on a green background. Black symbol with red are Targaryen bastard colors, the green background is the Green Fork, which is Jon & Meera's leg of the Ruby Map theory.

So, essentially: "two identical lifeforms", "separated", "Targaryen bastard colors" and "the Green Fork of the Trident." 

  •  The Knight of the Two Towers = "The Twins" ... 'nuff said

So the keywords for this part of the KoLT story is: "Trident," "Two identical lifeforms", "separated", "Green Fork", "Twins", "Targaryen bastard colors"

 

Bonus analysis:

Let us look at House Frey anyways:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Frey/

"The Twins are a pair of matched, strong castles of great importance as they contain and guard a bridge across the Green Fork near the Neck; there are no other crossings until far further south, at the ruby ford."

I like how GRRM brings up the "ruby ford" for the excerpt of "The Twins."

Extra bonus analysis: 

Looking at the sigil for House Haigh: black pitchfork, on a stripe of gold, on a red background. Black symbol with red are Targaryen bastard colors, the gold is Lannister gold. The red background is also Jaime's & Cersei's Red Fork leg of my Ruby Map theory.

But let's not talk about Jaime & Cersei being secret bastard Targaryens. It been discussed a million times over the decades already. 

 

Jyana:

The appendix says Meera's mother is Jyana. Why would the appendix lie?

The appendix also says Jon is Ned's bastard son.

Jyana has no mention in the story, other than the appendix. Her name first appeared in 2005 AFFC appendix, not ACOK nor ASOS. Perhaps in ACOK & ASOS, GRRM never cared about a "Jyana". Perhaps Howland's wife and Meera's supposedly mother was irrelevant to GRRM before 2005.

Also according to my Ruby Map theory, who were the mothers of the secret Targaryens? Joanna, Lyanna and...........Jyana.

 

Howland Reed:

Meera's father according to the index is Howland Reed. Meera is a Stark raised as a crannogwoman. Any word play with 'Howland Reed'?

Howl and Reed

 

Targaryen Family Tree:

In TWOIAF, the family tree of Targaryens had only two sets of boy/girl twins in their history. The girl twin from each set are named "Aelora" and "Jaehaera"...both name ending with "ra", like "Meera".

In addition, what were the three dragons of Aegon's Conquest? Balerion, Vhagar and ..... Mera xes

 

TWOIAF Artwork Selection:

In TWOIAF, the artwork selection of the inside covers of the book are oddly suspicious after reading my Ruby Map theory.

  • The inside back cover is an artwork of the Trident, where Rhaegar is about to die and his rubies are about to fly off. The Trident is the starting point of the Ruby Map theory.
  • The inside front cover is an artwork of Dragonstone, the confirmation point that the Ruby Map theory is true.

Some fantasy books show maps of their fantasy world inside these covers, but two major artworks that represent the Ruby Map theory are coincidentally shown instead.

 

Now this is where it gets freaky (unless GRRM did this intentionally):

  • The back inside cover is The Trident
  • The full page artwork BEFORE that is Jon Snow.
  • And then the full page artwork BEFORE Jon Snow is The Twins.

The Trident, Jon Snow, the "Twins"? That is an odd selection of consecutive artworks on pages that are traditionally left for maps.

 

Well there is one more level of freakishness. In the artwork of The Twins, there is one cloud drawn conspicuously at a point in the sky. What is that cloud hiding in this artwork of the Twins? ... the geographical location of Greywater Watch from an aerial view.

So is this all coincidental? Or an extremely clever way of hiding a secret message?

 

Off topic: the back of the back cover of TWOIAF where King Torrhen Stark bends the knee to Aegon Targaryen, is a symbolic gesture from GRRM to Tolkien, deciphered by another of my map theories.

 

2018:

Even though ADWD stopped writing for R+L=J&M, GRRM can still pick it back up for TWOW.

We did receive some exciting news in 2018 from GRRM: Bloodraven took Dark Sister, an ancestral sword of House Targaryen, to the Wall.

Bloodraven is currently stuck in a tree in a cave North of the wall.

 

Could Dark Sister be in the cave too?

Is there someone with secret Targaryen blood in the cave with him that can wield the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, which was initially designed for a female?

Could the person that wields Dark Sister, also be a secret sister of a character we all love and have high hopes for?

 

I guess we gotta wait.

 

Maybe some of you guys are convinced that Meera is Jon's twin. Probably most of you guys are still in denial. But the R+L=J&M theory is no small theory, it is as big as R+L=J...both hidden since 1996.

But for those who do believe in R+L=J&M twins, is it now possible that George Lucas screwed ASOIAF in May 2005, when he introduced backstory of Luke & Leia's birth? Which would almost be identical to the backstory of TOJ and Jon & Meera's birth? Did GRRM lose confidence in writing R+L=J&M for AFFC & ADWD after seeing Revenge of the Sith? Was this the reason why GRRM took so long to write or re-write ADWD after AFFC? Was the Meereenese Knot really about Meera Reed's plot? Could this even be the reason why TWOW is delayed?

Hell, even the sword Dawn is probably inspired by the light saber. Dawn was used in the combat of TOJ, while Obi-wan battled Anakin with light sabers. All this fighting was done just before the mothers died giving birth to twins, who then had to be separated shortly afterwards by our heroes of the story. Double hells...even Padme's funeral with her blue color and flowers screamed out Lyanna with her winter blue roses. 

 

Anyways, maybe I'm just crazy.

 

 

 

https://imgur.com/9c4Sz4s

 

Edited by The Map Guy
The FaB Update to close the final hole in the theory

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Thanks for the post, it was fun to read.

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

The chemical reaction of air cold as ice, mixing a hot flame of a fire...made it brighter...made the fire stronger...brought in more light.

That'd be cold air from the outside that is more dense and has more oxygen than warm air feeding the fire. Not ice, which is water and therefore would just melt when in contact with fire.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

Let us analyze the sword stealing in the Winterfell crypts:

  1. Bran grabs Brandon Stark's sword, because Bran was named after his uncle.
  2. Osha grabs Ned Stark's sword, because she will symbolically protect Rickon, Ned's last bloodline.
  3. Meera grabs Rickard Stark's sword.

IF Meera is NOT a Stark, what is the symbolism for her to carry that sword? If there is no meaningful symbolism for Meera, then Bran and Osha sword stealing should have no symbolic significance too.

Since Meera is a Stark, you get all three in the basket.

Um, well for one there are only Stark swords there she couldn't grab any other, non-Stark sword. And since both Meera and Osha couldn't grab the same sword as they both will be protecting Ned's children, Rickard's sword it is.
Might be that they just took relatively new swords that haven't rusted yet? 
And there doesn't have to be symbolism there, there's plot there: the stolen swords confirm the story that Wex told.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

So what does Meera do next? She narrates the story of Lyanna & the Knight of the Laughing Tree...because her dead mother "will always be alive in" Meera. 

Meera doesn't really do anything next. They climb for a long time, then Bran requests a story about knights, Reeds say that there's no knights in the Neck above the water and then Meera remembers one story about a knight that she knows and she said that he might have been a crannogman. The KotLT is a knight related to the Neck knight story that Bran requested, not the 'always be alive in you' conversation that ended a while ago.

Quote

"And it wasn't Theon who did the killing at Winterfell," said Meera. "Too many of the dead were ironmen." She shifted her frog spear to her other hand. "Remember Old Nan's stories, Bran. Remember the way she told them, the sound of her voice. So long as you do that, part of her will always be alive in you."
"I'll remember," he promised. They climbed without speaking for a long time, following a crooked game trail over the high saddle between two stony peaks. Scrawny soldier pines clung to the slopes around them. Far ahead Bran could see the icy glitter of a stream where it tumbled down a mountainside. He found himself listening to Jojen's breathing and the crunch of pine needles under Hodor's feet. "Do you know any stories?" he asked the Reeds all of a sudden.
Meera laughed. "Oh, a few."
"A few," her brother admitted.
"Hodor," said Hodor, humming.
"You could tell one," said Bran. "While we walked. Hodor likes stories about knights. I do, too."
"There are no knights in the Neck," said Jojen.
"Above the water," his sister corrected. "The bogs are full of dead ones, though."
"That's true," said Jojen. "Andals and ironmen, Freys and other fools, all those proud warriors who set out to conquer Greywater. Not one of them could find it. They ride into the Neck, but not back out. And sooner or later they blunder into the bogs and sink beneath the weight of all that steel and drown there in their armor."
The thought of drowned knights under the water gave Bran the shivers. He didn't object, though; he liked the shivers.
"There was one knight," said Meera, "in the year of the false spring. The Knight of the Laughing Tree, they called him. He might have been a crannogman, that one."

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

Meera Stark

That'd be either Waters or Targaryen in your theory. At the very least Snow or Sand. Why on Earth do you go with Stark this whole thread?

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

The following is an unconventional analysis, but it puts the green eyes into question.

  • Jon is a proven Stark and a questionable Targaryen. If he had purple eyes, this would give away R+L=J immediately, so he was given grey eyes to hide the Targaryen feature.
  • Meera is a questionable Stark and a questionable Targaryen. GRRM cannot give her purple or grey eyes…or this R+L=J&M theory would have been strongly hypothesized decades ago in forums. GRRM gives her green eyes and represents her from Greywater Watch.

Really? Come on!

We could have an 'analysis' that Meera is the actual Daenerys Targaryen then. GRRM cannot give her purple eyes and silver hair or this theory would have been strongly hypothesized decades ago in forums, so GRRM gives her green eyes and brown hair. Would explain how she made the torches brighter for an instant better than the ice thing too.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

Perhaps Howland's wife and Meera's supposedly mother was irrelevant to GRRM before 2005.

She's still irrelevant to him now. Just as Lyarra 'she was Lady Stark and she died' Strark is. Some people are just not relevant to the story.

 

On 10/18/2018 at 9:15 PM, The Map Guy said:

Is there someone with secret Targaryen blood in the cave with him that can wield the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, which was initially designed for a female?

Did you know that there are theories that Hodor is a Targaryen? ))

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Sometimes I read theories and I wish they would just answer the question "so what?" for me at the top. I did not find the evidence convincing, and I don't much care even if it is true.  We've spent 5 books picking up clues Jon is Lyanna's but no clues Meera is.  What do we need her for?

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I am at work so I don't have time for a long answer, but about your "map theory"

 

With the World of Ice and Fire published I always thought there was no way Jaime and Cersei could be secret Targs?

Edited by Missing Benjen
Typo

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In general, I like it. I've always liked the idea of Meera being Jon's sister, but never saw much evidence other than the stuff on the surface. 

Though you kind of lost me at Jaime and Cersei being Targs though. 

Just a thought - If we know that Dark Sister, a Targaryan weapon, is currently sitting in Bloodraven's stone-and-root cave, if Meera does take it up (for whatever reason), could that maybe be seen as waking a dragon (weapon) from stone (a cave?) Is Meera Azor Ahai? Probably not, but it's a thought. 

Also, could the "they" you hate so much include Jon/Meera? Maybe one baby had been removed from the room after it came out and the second was still in the room when Ned got there? Howland picks up the removed baby (that Ned blew past out of worry for Lyanna), and Howland and Jon/Meera are the "they" that come in to see Ned with Lyanna's body?

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I gotta admit : the map thing is pretty odd, if nothing else. But like others, that Jaime / Cersei Targ thing is throwing a real monkey wrench in there for me. 

Maybe it's pointing at House Blackwood? My map image is loading all pixelated and wonky every time I try... 

My favorite part was how you mentioned that you wouldn't mention Star Wars :)

 

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25 minutes ago, dmfn said:

I gotta admit : the map thing is pretty odd, if nothing else. But like others, that Jaime / Cersei Targ thing is throwing a real monkey wrench in there for me. 

Then there's Honeywine and Torentine that start with forks and both point to the Arbor where Horas and Hobber Redwyne argue over who would be the next Lord of the Arbor. Who are their real parents and, more importantly, who will manage to slip the word "mayhaps". :P

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On 10/18/2018 at 11:15 AM, The Map Guy said:

Hi everyone, I am that crazy map guy that suggested George Lucas was the reason why we have all these ASOIAF publication delays after AFFC in 2005.

I thought if I was able prove that Jon & Meera were actually twins, perhaps my tinfoil theory would have some truth to it.

I only listed some of my "R+L=J&M" book clues on the original Meereenese Knot @ TOJ thread, but I will display my WHOLE report on this thread, with no Star Wars mention.

 

I hope you guys find this LONG theory refreshingly interesting...whether you believe in R+L=J&M, or not...whether you believe George Lucas screwed over GRRM and the fandom, or not.

 

Background:

In the beginning, GRRM had big plans for Meera, until the Meereenese Knot of 2005/2011. In ADWD, GRRM stops writing for R+L=J&M, cuts the knot in half, and we have only R+L=J.

GRRM blames the publication delay on the stories occurring in Meereen…which IMO, were messy and a bit dull. The real reason is Meera Reed, but he could not publicly confirm this because it would reveal R+L=J too early.

 

HOWEVER, if GRRM wants to write R+L=J&M for TWOW, he can just pick up where he left off since he already laid the foundations of R+L=J&M in AGOT, ACOK & ASOS. I will be addressing these "foundations."  

 

Goal:

To provide evidence and clues to support that Meera Reed is indeed Lyanna's & Rhaegar's daughter, born at the Tower of Joy, twin to Jon Snow, raised separately by Howland Reed in Greywater Watch. I will use traditional investigation methods AND unconventional methods. 

 

To simplify this thread, let’s just assume R+L=J is true.

 

Hard Evidence:

What are the hard evidence that support R+L=J?

Jon was born during the conflict of Robert's Rebellion, and Ned was at TOJ, where Lyanna died in a bed of blood, suggesting it may be childbirth. Ned comes back to Winterfell with a mysterious baby.

 

What are the hard evidence that support R+L=J&M?

Meera was also born during the conflict of Robert's Rebellion, and Howland was also at TOJ with Ned & Lyanna.

 

Giving birth to twins is more difficult and more harmful than giving birth to a single baby.

Lyanna is a young and athletic woman. The odds of her dying in single childbirth should be less than Rhaella Targaryen (old) and Joanna Lannister (giving birth to a deformed dwarf baby).

However, Lyanna died anyways.

 

"Hard Evidence" like this is hardly debatable in real life or fantasy world.

 

Since ASOIAF is a fantasy world created by an author's mind, the writing techniques an author employs can provide us with clues too...like symbolism, imagery, foreshadowing, double meaning...etc.

 

"At the foot of the hall, the doors open and a gust of cold air made the torches brighter for an instant" - Meera's INTRODUCTION in (Bran III ACOK)

As readers, we overlooked probably one of the most important symbolic sentence in ASOIAF.

The chemical reaction of air cold as ice, mixing a hot flame of a fire...made it brighter...made the fire stronger...brought in more light.

The Prince that was Promised is said to be from a Song of Ice and Fire. Everyone is predicting it to be Jon Snow, son of Lyanna (ice) and Rhaegar (fire). Azor Ahai is supposed to wield a weapon called Light-bringer, and most people thinks it is Jon too.

We get the elements of TPTWP and Azor Ahai all in this one sentence introduction.

Maybe for GRRM, this introduction means nothing. Maybe it means everything. 

However, in real life, any gust of air would actually put out a torch, esp. in cold conditions. Did GRRM break the laws of nature to create a powerful symbolic introduction to Meera Reed?

 

Also in (Bran III ACOK):

"Howland Reed was a great friend to your father," Ser Rodrick told (Bran). "These two (Meera & Jojen) are his, it would seem"  

Key sentence: "It would seem." Is GRRM warning us that Meera & Jojen may not be who they seem to be?

 

The Lyanna, Arya and Meera Stark comparison:

Meera was never directly compared to Lyanna, but Arya was compared to Lyanna (by Ned in Arya II AGOT), and Meera was compared to Arya (by Bran in Bran IV ACOK).

Essentially all three of these females are slim, dark haired, tomboyish, athletic, strong-willed, defender of the weak, and a bit wild. Ned has dubbed this wildness as "wolf's blood" when he was comparing Arya & Lyanna. It sounds a lot like Meera's personality too. Lyanna was said to be beautiful. Meera's appearance have caught the attention of Bran, and the curiosity of Theon as they analyze pass Meera's terrible taste of fashion. Meera may be attractive, but not the traditional 'lady of a castle' type of attractiveness.

 

Lord Rickard's Sword:

Ned has said that Lyanna probably would have carried a sword if their father (Lord Rickard) had allowed it. (Ayra II AGOT)

What does Meera, daughter of Lyanna, do in the crypts of Winterfell? She grabs her mother's father's sword. (Bran VII ACOK)

GRRM even reminds us that Meera still has Bran's grandfather sword in ASOS. GRRM even uses the word "grandfather" along with Meera. (Bran I ASOS)

 

"But it was only a game, and Bran knew it" - Bran's thoughts about taking the swords. Let us analyze the sword stealing in the Winterfell crypts, 

  1. Bran grabs Brandon Stark's sword, because Bran was named after his uncle.
  2. Osha grabs Ned Stark's sword, because she will symbolically protect Rickon, Ned's last bloodline.
  3. Meera grabs Rickard Stark's sword.

IF Meera is NOT a Stark, what is the symbolism for her to carry that sword? If there is no meaningful symbolism for Meera, then Bran and Osha sword stealing should have no symbolic significance too.

Since Meera is a Stark, you get all three in the basket.

You ignored what role the sword Hodor took plays in your symbolism. 

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21 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I personally have not come across this theory. I enjoyed reading this. I could totally see it happening, or not.

Nice work and research.

Thanks for the compliment, and more importantly thank you for breaking the ice for this thread. The thread was sitting here for several days with multiple views and no replies. I was being optimistic by telling myself that when i usually make a thread or reply on this forum, i usually get criticized and rejected immediately. The fact that i got no replies for a few days also meant i got no immediate criticism or rejection haha. Thank you.

 

20 hours ago, wia said:

Thanks for the post, it was fun to read.

Thank you!

 

20 hours ago, wia said:

That'd be cold air from the outside that is more dense and has more oxygen than warm air feeding the fire. Not ice, which is water and therefore would just melt when in contact with fire.

Technically no for this case. Cold dense air does have more oxygen, but a fire only benefits in a control environment, like an engine or oxygen feeding a bbq grill from below...as long as it has a fuel source to burn. A torch, like a birthday candle is designed to burn slowly. A gust of air, hot or cold, would blow it out. You would need gentle air to add oxygen to fuel it. Even when Osha was trying to light the torch in the Winterfell crypts, she "blew softly" to get the torch started. Also, Osha passing that same torch to Meera in the crypts may be a symbolic foreshadowing in the future for Meera.

When I said 'cold as ice', that was a reference to the Catelyn chapter of AGOT. Ned was "cold as ice" when Catelyn asked about Jon's origins...which would also be Meera's origins.

20 hours ago, wia said:

And there doesn't have to be symbolism there, there's plot there:

Just because there is no need for symbolism doesn't mean we can't get it additionally for free lol. GRRM's symbolisms may come in places you least expected.

20 hours ago, wia said:

Meera doesn't really do anything next. They climb for a long time, then Bran requests a story about knights, Reeds say that there's no knights in the Neck above the water and then Meera remembers one story about a knight that she knows and she said that he might have been a crannogman. The KotLT is a knight related to the Neck knight story that Bran requested, not the 'always be alive in you' conversation that ended a while ago.

Well thank you for posting the excerpt of that chapter. It at least showed that the 'always be alive in you' verse was not too far from when Meera begins to narrate...even though you are right, Meera does not narrate immediately.

20 hours ago, wia said:

That'd be either Waters or Targaryen in your theory. At the very least Snow or Sand. Why on Earth do you go with Stark this whole thread?

"Stark" was used to emphasize the subtopic of comparing Arya Stark to Lyanna Stark to Meera Stark. Who knows what Jon & Meera's last names should be.

20 hours ago, wia said:

Did you know that there are theories that Hodor is a Targaryen? ))

I haven't, but let me take a stab at it:

While in the Winterfell crypts, Hodor used his back to open the door. He used all his strength and might, screaming "Hodor Hodor Hodor HODOR" and finally opens the door. Osha then says "We made enough noise to wake a dragon"

On the way to the Wall, Bloodraven meets a younger Old Nan and has a one night stand. Hodor is the great grandson bastard of Bloodraven. Bloodraven calls Bran Stark to his cave, but he was really trying to reunite with Hodor, so he can pass down Dark Sister to Hodor Targarygen, the third head of the Dragon. Also Hodor being a secret Targaryen would not discredit Meera being a secret Targaryen while they are in the cave together. Can we say Targaryen incest?

8 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Sometimes I read theories and I wish they would just answer the question "so what?" for me at the top. I did not find the evidence convincing, and I don't much care even if it is true.  We've spent 5 books picking up clues Jon is Lyanna's but no clues Meera is.  What do we need her for?

That's okay if you are not convinced. But this topic is definitely not a "So what?"

  • R+L=J&M is identically as big as R+L=J
  • R+L=J&M along with George Lucas may the reason why we have all the years between the books after AFFC
  • R+L=J&M would also introduce sub-theories, theories I already have in my head that I have not mentioned but may be discuss in the future

For example: Howland knowing that Meera is a secret Targaryen, did he send Meera & Jojen to pick up Bran AND have Meera fetch Dark Sister from Bloodraven? Howland was at the Isle of Faces with the green men, and Dark Sister was in the God's Eye for a few years after the Dance of the Dragons. Also, could Howland Reed be Jojen in disguise?? What could all this mean???

 

6 hours ago, Missing Benjen said:

With the World of Ice and Fire published I always thought there was no way Jaime and Cercei could be secret Targs?

Well the map was drawn in 1996, may be as far as 1991. Wouldn't be a surprise if GRRM did a re-write of Jaime and Cersei being secret Targs over 27 years. IMO, Jaime and Cersei being secret Targs is actually great for the plot.

 

5 hours ago, Lord Vance II said:

In general, I like it. I've always liked the idea of Meera being Jon's sister, but never saw much evidence other than the stuff on the surface. 

Though you kind of lost me at Jaime and Cersei being Targs though. 

Just a thought - If we know that Dark Sister, a Targaryan weapon, is currently sitting in Bloodraven's stone-and-root cave, if Meera does take it up (for whatever reason), could that maybe be seen as waking a dragon (weapon) from stone (a cave?) Is Meera Azor Ahai? Probably not, but it's a thought. 

Also, could the "they" you hate so much include Jon/Meera? Maybe one baby had been removed from the room after it came out and the second was still in the room when Ned got there? Howland picks up the removed baby (that Ned blew past out of worry for Lyanna), and Howland and Jon/Meera are the "they" that come in to see Ned with Lyanna's body?

Thanks.

There is still a passage from the Winterfell crypts where Osha trying to light a torch and passes it to Meera. The torch part was definitely a light-bringing imagery. Osha also mentions waking up a dragon. Theses are pieces of a puzzle that I still can't figure out, so I didn't add it to the OP, but it does looks relevant. Maybe you guys can re-read that chapter and figure how it ties to Meera's intro and Azor Ahai...if there are any ties of course.

"They".......GRRM definitely is f-ing with us by misleading the pronouns in that verse. It can mean anything. I just re-tweaked it so R+L=J makes sense and R+L=J&M makes sense.

Edited by The Map Guy

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1 hour ago, dmfn said:

I gotta admit : the map thing is pretty odd, if nothing else. But like others, that Jaime / Cersei Targ thing is throwing a real monkey wrench in there for me. 

Maybe it's pointing at House Blackwood? My map image is loading all pixelated and wonky every time I try... 

My favorite part was how you mentioned that you wouldn't mention Star Wars :)

 

One of the first things that GRRM did for ASOIAF in 1991 was draw a map. 

I mentioned more specific stuff about the maps in my previous post. The only thing I didn't mention is how this is kinda similar to Tolkien's The Hobbit, when Bilbo is shown a secret map to the secret door in the Lonely Mountain. GRRM takes a few elements of Tolkien to ASOIAF.

Thanks for mentioning the Star Wars stuff, it was a deception I employed in the thread to make sure readers read the whole thing lol.

16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

You ignored what role the sword Hodor took plays in your symbolism. 

Unless I missed it, which sword did Hodor take from the Winterfell crypts?

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30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Technically no for this case. Cold dense air does have more oxygen, but a fire only benefits in a control environment, like an engine or oxygen feeding a bbq grill from below...as long as it has a fuel source to burn. A torch, like a birthday candle is designed to burn slowly. A gust of air, hot or cold, would blow it out. You would need gentle air to add oxygen to fuel it. Even when Osha was trying to light the torch in the Winterfell crypts, she "blew softly" to get the torch started. Also, Osha passing that same torch to Meera in the crypts may be a symbolic foreshadowing in the future for Meera.

No, air from the outside has more oxygen than air inside where the oxygen is burned by the torches and breathed in by a bunch of people. Try blowing out a torch that was soaked in oil/animal fat/similar substance like the medieval torches were by a gust of wind - it ain't happening, it's not a candle. You also blow softly on a bonfire when you're lighting it, but it's not blowed out by a gust of wind when it's fully on.

 

30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

When I said 'cold as ice', that was a reference to the Catelyn chapter of AGOT. Ned was "cold as ice" when Catelyn asked about Jon's origins...which would also be Meera's origins.

You said it, the text didn't. It's just 'cold'.

 

30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Just because there is no need for symbolism doesn't mean we can't get it additionally for free lol. GRRM's symbolisms may come in places you least expected.

You can't get it here 'cause there's no logic in your interpretation. Meera takes a Stark sword 'cause she's Lyanna's daughter, but other characters also take Stark swords, even though they have no blood relation to Starks. It's way beyond reaching.

 

30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Well thank you for posting the excerpt of that chapter. It at least showed that the 'always be alive in you' verse was not too far from when Meera begins to narrate...even though you are right, Meera does not narrate immediately.

Would be helpful if you provided the quotes, since you're the one who supposed to argue the theory. There is a whole site for quoting ASOIAF, you know.

 

30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

"Stark" was used to emphasize the subtopic of comparing Arya Stark to Lyanna Stark to Meera Stark. Who knows what Jon & Meera's last names should be.

Arya Stark and Lyanna Stark are trueborn daughters of house Stark, Meera is not. Even in your theory she's not.
There's nothing similar in Meera's story to theirs.

 

30 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I haven't, but let me take a stab at it:

While in the Winterfell crypts, Hodor used his back to open the door. He used all his strength and might, screaming "Hodor Hodor Hodor HODOR" and finally opens the door. Osha then says "We made enough noise to wake a dragon"

On the way to the Wall, Bloodraven meets a younger Old Nan and has a one night stand. Hodor is the great grandson bastard of Bloodraven. Bloodraven calls Bran Stark to his cave, but he was really trying to reunite with Hodor, so he can pass down Dark Sister to Hodor Targarygen, the third head of the Dragon. Also Hodor being a secret Targaryen would not discredit Meera being a secret Targaryen while they are in the cave together. Can we say Targaryen incest?

You should've send this to D&D. Show worthy writing. :D

Edited by wia

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43 minutes ago, wia said:

Try blowing out a torch that was soaked in oil/animal fat/similar substance like the medieval torches were by a gust of wind - it ain't happening, it's not a candle.

Ok....but now does a gust of wind trying to blow out a torch makes it brighter or dimmer?

45 minutes ago, wia said:

You can't get it here 'cause there's no logic in your interpretation. Meera takes a Stark sword 'cause she's Lyanna's daughter, but other characters also take Stark swords, even though they have no blood relation to Starks. It's way beyond reaching.

Ok I guess we do have to play this 'game'

1st sword taken is by Osha, protecting Rickon

  1. Rickon's uncle's sword
  2. Rickon's grandfather's sword
  3. Rickon's father's sword

Of these three, which is more symbolic?

 

2nd sword taken by Meera Stark-Targaryen

  1. Meera's uncle's sword
  2. Meera's grandfather's sword
  3. Meera's uncle's sword

Of these three, which is more symbolic?

 

3rd AND LAST sword taken by Bran

  1. Bran's uncle's sword, who is named after him
  2. Bran's grandfather's sword (already taken)
  3. Bran's father's sword (already taken)

After the 1st and 2nd sword is taken according to the book, would the 3rd remaining sword still have some symbolism?

Also don't forget, the most important part of Meera taking Lord Rickard's sword from his grave was when Ned foreshadowed it in AGOT when he said "Lyanna would have carried a sword if their lord father (Lord Rickard) have allowed it." Meera = Lyanna's daughter

 

57 minutes ago, wia said:

Would be helpful if you provided the quotes, since you're the one who supposed to argue the theory. There is a whole site for quoting ASOIAF, you know.

I did provide a ton of quotes, but I shorten some of them so the long OP does not need to be unnecessarily longer than it needs to be. And what is this website? I can get text from the book? I have been literally re-TYPING the quotes from the PAPER book lol.

 

1 hour ago, wia said:

Arya Stark and Lyanna Stark are trueborn daughters of house Stark, Meera is not. Even in your theory she's not.
There's nothing similar in Meera's story to theirs.

It was to compare typical female Stark physical descriptions and personality. Arya is more Stark than Tully. Sansa is more Tully than Stark. I understand in whatever case Meera is given, she would not have "Stark" as her last name.

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

A rusty one 

Oh yeah...that was in ASOS. I was just re-reading the Winterfell crypts story in ACOK and I couldn't find Hodor taking anyone's sword.

I figure the symbolism "game" was limited to ACOK, and the rusty sword in ASOS with no owner's name is irrelevant.

Who knows who sword it is, it could be one of the many Brandon Starks buried in the crypts, and Hodor is protecting Bran. Bran already has his "namesake" sword.

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You had me and lost me at "by pokemon rules."

 

I think it is rather thought out and very plausible. I probably won't agree that it is the most likely of theories, but there are certainly more tinfoilly ones. I especially liked the "they" analysis.

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4 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Ok....but now does a gust of wind trying to blow out a torch makes it brighter or dimmer?

Airflow, specifically oxygen, increases fire strength. It is why pouring dirt or baking soda or covering a fire with something will put it out. It is why a bellows is used to add life to a fire. It is why blowing on embers will reignite a fire. It is why a wildfire will spread due to wind.

Edited by Valyrian Lance

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26 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Ok....but now does a gust of wind trying to blow out a torch makes it brighter or dimmer?

It's not a gust of wind trying to blow out a torch, it's just gust of wind. And it's the increased oxygen that's making it brighter.

Do we even have textual evidence that Targs/Starks/Jon make torches burn brighter by their sheer presence in the book to make a connection?

 

26 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

Ok I guess we do have to play this 'game'

1st sword taken is by Osha, protecting Rickon

  1. Rickon's uncle's sword
  2. Rickon's grandfather's sword
  3. Rickon's father's sword

Of these three, which is more symbolic?

 

2nd sword taken by Meera Stark-Targaryen

  1. Meera's uncle's sword
  2. Meera's grandfather's sword
  3. Meera's uncle's sword

Of these three, which is more symbolic?

 

3rd AND LAST sword taken by Bran

  1. Bran's uncle's sword, who is named after him
  2. Bran's grandfather's sword (already taken)
  3. Bran's father's sword (already taken)

After the 1st and 2nd sword is taken according to the book, would the 3rd remaining sword still have some symbolism?

Also don't forget, the most important part of Meera taking Lord Rickard's sword from his grave was when Ned foreshadowed it in AGOT when he said "Lyanna would have carried a sword if their lord father (Lord Rickard) have allowed it." Meera = Lyanna's daughter

None of these really. They're just taking swords for practical reasons. And Rickard would have used Ice as the Lord of Winterfell, not the sword he was laid to rest with.

And yes, Hodor also took a sword. And that also is symbolic of nothing.

But if we're really going for it I'd go for Osha-Rickard and Merra-Brandon 'cause names obviously and Hodor taking some actually cool sword of like Torrhen or Cregan at least 'cause Hodor.

26 minutes ago, The Map Guy said:

I did provide a ton of quotes, but I shorten some of them so the long OP does not need to be unnecessarily longer than it needs to be. And what is this website? I can get text from the book? I have been literally re-TYPING the quotes from the PAPER book lol.

Enjoy.

https://asearchoficeandfire.com

 

Edited by wia

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3 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Oh yeah...that was in ASOS. I was just re-reading the Winterfell crypts story in ACOK and I couldn't find Hodor taking anyone's sword.

I figure the symbolism "game" was limited to ACOK, and the rusty sword in ASOS with no owner's name is irrelevant.

Who knows who sword it is, it could be one of the many Brandon Starks buried in the crypts, and Hodor is protecting Bran. Bran already has his "namesake" sword.

Symbolism is always symbolism. It is not limited to a single book. That would make any R+L=J clues book specific and this is a long story  

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8 hours ago, wia said:

Snip*

Would be helpful if you provided the quotes, since you're the one who supposed to argue the theory. There is a whole site for quoting ASOIAF, you know.

Snip*

What is the site for grabbing quotes?

My silly self assumed you dedicated people were doing it manually. 

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