Sigella Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 2 hours ago, Colonel Green said: You clip off the context of that line: It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply. Her reaction is because Mya's being a bastard makes her think of Jon. She likes Mya just fine in the rest of the chapter, admires her competence, and even thinks her attitude reminds her of Sansa at one point. Still, it was an effort to keep smiling and awkward silence, not very courteous behaviour imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Sigella said: Still, it was an effort to keep smiling and awkward silence, not very courteous behaviour imo. Which has nothing to do with a "a particular hatred of bastards in general", which she does not have. Her initial reaction to Mya was about Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Here's Looking At You, Kid Posted October 20, 2018 Share Posted October 20, 2018 I thought Catelyn only had distaste for one particular bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellard Stark Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Mordred said: We should be criticizing Viserys for abusing his sister. Hating on Robert for the way he treated all women. Bashing Jaime for the way he treats his children. Walder Frey for belittling his bastards. Hoster for forcing his daughter to abort her baby. The Umber men should be crucified for continuing to screw young brides. Why aren't we? I don't know. Are there more men in this forum? People might excuse Robert because it's their culture of the time. Having first go at brides is northern culture for the Umber men. Well, should we not extend the same understanding to Catelyn? I mean, it is their custom to look down on bastards. This bastard is a real threat to her own children's inheritance because Ned is bf with the king. What if Ned lost his head one day and asked the king to legit Jon Snow to Jon Stark? Hoster Tully and many lords would put his foot down before bringing a bastard under his roof. If that thinking affected Catelyn it's due to culture and Jon's unusual circumstances. Catelyn is not alone in having this attitude. Bring a bastard into a modern nuclear family and see how the wife reacts. Well that went from zero to 100 quickly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 14 hours ago, Colonel Green said: That line is nonsense, and the sort of thing people use to justify war crimes (as, indeed, that's what the perpetrators of the Red Wedding are doing). that line is true in the most meaningful sense. you need to think more about the actuality of war and the suffering it brings with it 14 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The way Walder runs his household guarantees a civil war when he dies, as other characters note. I don't think this would've happened when Stevron was the intended heir. Walder is one of the most loathed & disgusting characters in the books, but one thing he does well is propagate his own family, (which means by extension himself) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 8 hours ago, lrresistable said: that line is true in the most meaningful sense. you need to think more about the actuality of war and the suffering it brings with it The reason the laws of war exist is precisely to mitigate "the actuality of war and the suffering it brings with it". It is never, in the big picture, good for civilization to undermine them -- guest right is important in allowing there to be some trust between the sides when they meet, negotiate, make deals, etc. And, of course, it's farcical to suggest that any of the perpetrators of the Red Wedding cared about human suffering. They cared about cheating to gain advantage for themselves. Quote I don't think this would've happened when Stevron was the intended heir. Walder is one of the most loathed & disgusting characters in the books, but one thing he does well is propagate his own family, (which means by extension himself) Stevron inheriting would just stall it. The basic situation remains unchanged: a family that is much too large and has far too little family feeling, and Lord Walder is responsible for both of those things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrresistable Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 8 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The reason the laws of war exist is precisely to mitigate "the actuality of war and the suffering it brings with it". It is never, in the big picture, good for civilization to undermine them -- guest right is important in allowing there to be some trust between the sides when they meet, negotiate, make deals, etc. It's not a law of war, but one of hospitality. a law of war would be never let your guard down among people you can't trust; like around scum suckers such as Walder. never say never, you can always find ethical reasoning & justification to do things that are wrong "for the greater good". moral absolutism is overly de ontological & we all know Kant got his ass kicked by Jeremy Bentham & John Stuart Mill's pragmatic Utilitarianism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 9 hours ago, Colonel Green said: The reason the laws of war exist is precisely to mitigate "the actuality of war and the suffering it brings with it". It is never, in the big picture, good for civilization to undermine them -- guest right is important in allowing there to be some trust between the sides when they meet, negotiate, make deals, etc. And, of course, it's farcical to suggest that any of the perpetrators of the Red Wedding cared about human suffering. They cared about cheating to gain advantage for themselves. Stevron inheriting would just stall it. The basic situation remains unchanged: a family that is much too large and has far too little family feeling, and Lord Walder is responsible for both of those things. It is also the law to honor your oath. Besides, all of them were already guilty of far greater crimes. The crime of rebellion. Robb was the worst criminal because he was trying to steal one large piece of the kingdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted October 22, 2018 Author Share Posted October 22, 2018 22 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It is also the law to honor your oath. Besides, all of them were already guilty of far greater crimes. The crime of rebellion. Robb was the worst criminal because he was trying to steal one large piece of the kingdom. What was Robb supposed to do when Joffrey ordered Ned’s execution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 7:15 PM, Sigella said: Still, it was an effort to keep smiling and awkward silence, not very courteous behaviour imo. It's actually the very definition of courtesy, to remain smiling even when you don't want to be. Cat treating a peasant so well speaks well of her, we've seen few other nobles speak to peasants as well. 54 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: What was Robb supposed to do when Joffrey ordered Ned’s execution? The sames as Harrion Karstark when Robb ordered his father's execution. Or is there a special law that exempts the Starks from the law? 10 hours ago, Colonel Green said: Stevron inheriting would just stall it. The basic situation remains unchanged: a family that is much too large and has far too little family feeling, The size of a family is not the issue. Eon Hunter had three sons, it appears the youngest murdered him and is plotting against his older brother. The Corbrays seem a small family yet there is clear animosity between them. Three Baratheon brothers, little love there and both Robert's brothers chose power over each other. There is family feeling amongst the Freys, but like any family (just look at Hoster and Brynden or his own daughters) there is also division. We frequently see Freys stick up for each other as Piper came lurching to his feet. "Say that with a sword in your hand, Frey," the small man snarled. "Or do you only fight with smears of shit?" Frey's pinched face went pale. Beside him Walder Rivers rose. "Edwyn is no man of the sword . . . but I am, Piper. If you have more remarks to make, come outside and make them." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "My brother Merrett's son." Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. "Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy." Little Walder, thought Theon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Ser Hosteen turned on the fat man. "Close enough to drive a lance through my back, aye. Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you." Like all families it is more complicated than you are presenting it, Quote and Lord Walder is responsible for both of those things. Actually, not true. The old man had been grooming Stevron for sixty years, and had pounded it into his head that blood was blood. But Stevron had died whilst campaigning with the Young Wolf in the west—"of waiting, no doubt," Lame Lothar had quipped when the raven brought them the news—and his sons and grandsons were a different sort of Frey. Stevron, a man Stark fans seem to like (or not hate as much) is the one who dropped the ball. On 10/20/2018 at 5:46 PM, Mordred said: Just remember how Tyrion treated Jon during the ride to the wall. He wasn't exactly nice. He purposely said a lot of hurtful things to get at the boy. The lack of respect was pretty mutual. Plus Tyrion shows few respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/20/2018 at 4:40 PM, Colonel Green said: It's better phrased as that lords don't raise their illegitimate children at home as long as their wife is around. The lords you cite are either unmarried or widowers, generally. Bracken is married. He has no sons, and it seems that it’s more common to raise a bastard son if you don’t have an heir – Bolton does the same. It’s like insurance I guess. It probably is more common to raise bastards if you don’t have a wife, but I don’t really see what that proves either way. The fact is that raising bastards in your castle isn’t a novel idea. It may not be what everyone does, but it’s not incomprehensible for a lord to decide to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moiraine Sedai Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 17 hours ago, Angel Eyes said: What was Robb supposed to do when Joffrey ordered Ned’s execution? Negotiate for the release of his sisters. Swear fealty and assure Joffrey. Robb had no way of knowing if the charges were false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colonel Green Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/21/2018 at 8:57 PM, lrresistable said: It's not a law of war, but one of hospitality. a law of war would be never let your guard down among people you can't trust; like around scum suckers such as Walder. The laws of hospitality exist precisely for situations where you give your word and meet someone you might otherwise be suspicious of, i.e., in war. It's a truce, and Westeros is much more dangerous for the collapse of the precedent that truces are honoured. 23 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said: It is also the law to honor your oath. False equivalence. And, among other things, Robb was there precisely to make amends for that. Quote Besides, all of them were already guilty of far greater crimes. The crime of rebellion. Robb was the worst criminal because he was trying to steal one large piece of the kingdom. They rebelled in response to violation of the feudal contract and the execution of Ned on trumped up charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/19/2018 at 5:55 AM, Angel Eyes said: Hoster Tully does not like Walder Frey. Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof and doesn’t treat them like servants (read: Falia Flowers). Is it possible that Hoster’s dislike of Walder’s practices rubbed off on Catelyn in her opinion of Jon Snow? Can you show that Catelyn dislikes bastards more than the wives of other lords do? Or that Hoster ever displays a dislike for bastards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 No, Cat's pride was damaged by Jon but rather than take it out on Ned, she takes it out on him. Also, she seems threatened by Jon, he is more Stark looking and the rumors that he was the son of Ashara Dayne seemed to have haunted her as it was rumored that Ned was or fell in love with her at the Harrenhal Tourney. Ned married Cat out of obligation, not love, same for Cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernie Mac Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Ned married Cat out of obligation, not love, same for Cat. Which is the norm for nobility in their society. People like Doran seem to be the exception, not the rule. 33 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: The laws of hospitality exist precisely for situations where you give your word and meet someone you might otherwise be suspicious of, i.e., in war. It's a truce, and Westeros is much more dangerous for the collapse of the precedent that truces are honoured. Not really. When Robert usurped his cousin's throne there was not an outbreak of ambitious relatives doing the same. When Jaime killed Aerys Kingslaying did not become acceptable. When Tyrion killed his father kinslaying did not become any less shocking. Customs like Kinslaying, Guest Rights and Kingslaying have all been broken in the past before the events of this series, they still remain taboo. 33 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: False equivalence. And, among other things, Robb was there precisely to make amends for that. No he was there because he was desperate and had no other option. It's unclear if he would have don the same if he had other options "We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope" He was also under the impression that his own army would protect him "Robb, listen to me. Once you have eaten of his bread and salt, you have the guest right, and the laws of hospitality protect you beneath his roof." Robb looked more amused than afraid. "I have an army to protect me, Mother, I don't need to trust in bread and salt. Now despite half of Robb's Northern army turning against him most Lords are not going to be under the assumption that they can no longer trust their own armies just like most people will continue to trust in Guest Rights. 33 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: They rebelled in response to violation of the feudal contract No they did not, Ned attempted to arrest the Royal Family, that is treason. Robb had no idea that Joffrey was a bastard nor does he ever cite a violation of the feudal contract. He rebelled because his dad was arrested. 33 minutes ago, Colonel Green said: and the execution of Ned on trumped up charges. He rebelled before Ned was executed. And the charges were not trumped up, Ned did try to arrest Robert's acknowledged heir hours after the king had died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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