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Did Catelyn get her dislike of bastards from her father’s dislike of Walder Frey?

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Hoster Tully does not like Walder Frey. Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof and doesn’t treat them like servants (read: Falia Flowers). Is it possible that Hoster’s dislike of Walder’s practices rubbed off on Catelyn in her opinion of Jon Snow?

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It may have contributed to it... but Westeros generally attaches a stigma to bastardry. They're said to be "born from lust, lies, and weakness", and are seen as treacherous and wanton. Also, in a feudal system of hereditary inheritance, they can cause problems. 

Ned bringing Jon home and raising him alongside his trueborn children is an exception, rather than the norm. Catelyn's dislike of bastards doesn't need any more explanation than "she's a noblewoman in Westeros". If you want to go a little further, "she's a noblewoman in Westeros, whose husband brought home a bastard son roughly the same age as their first trueborn son". Any influence from her father's dislike for Walder Frey, and the fact Walder had a lot of bastards, is unnecessary. Walder keeping his bastards around isn't even the only thing Walder does that could explain Hoster's hostility/dislike towards him.

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Hoster Tully does not like Walder Frey. Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof and doesn’t treat them like servants (read: Falia Flowers). Is it possible that Hoster’s dislike of Walder’s practices rubbed off on Catelyn in her opinion of Jon Snow?

Oh good find.  Possible.  Hoster was an elitists who believed bastards should be kept away from the same roof because they bring shame to the house.  Catelyn acquired the same values as her dad.  But Catelyn's basic decency as a person kept her from abusing Ned's bastard.  

Walder Frey is getting judged too harshly by the fandom.  There is good in the man.  How many lords support and care for their illegitimate children?  Robb Stark just got on Walder's bad side.  

 

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2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof

No he's not. There are plenty of examples - Ronnet Connington, the Lannisters (Joy), Roose Bolton (eventually), Jonos Bracken. Plenty are mentioned in the World Book too.

The reason she resents Jon is because he's Ned's bastard. He's a reminder of Ned's cheating, of her being dishonoured, and a potential threat to her line.

Edited by Shouldve Taken The Black

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Hoster was an elitists who believed bastards should be kept away from the same roof because they bring shame to the house.

Where does it say that? I don't recall Hoster's opinion on bastards ever being discussed.

 

 

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Just now, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

Where does it say that? I don't recall Hoster's opinion on bastards ever being discussed.

 

 

It doesn't.  I am assuming here and using what we know of Hoster's attitudes towards LF, Lysa's pregnancy, and her arranged marriage to Jon.  

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I am assuming here and using what we know of Hoster's attitudes towards LF, Lysa's pregnancy, and her arranged marriage to Jon.

Fair enough. That doesn't necessarily mean he has any specific views about bastards being raised under roofs though. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hoster held the traditional disdain of bastards, but the Littlefinger-Lysa issue was different. There's disliking bastards, and disliking your daughter being knocked up by your low status fosterling.

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5 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Hoster Tully does not like Walder Frey. Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof and doesn’t treat them like servants (read: Falia Flowers). Is it possible that Hoster’s dislike of Walder’s practices rubbed off on Catelyn in her opinion of Jon Snow?

 

I don't get the impression that Cat has a particular hatred of bastards in general, just this bastard in particular:

Quote

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man's needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off to war in the south while she remained safe in her father's castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child's needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him "son" for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

 

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5 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Walder Frey is getting judged too harshly by the fandom.  There is good in the man.  How many lords support and care for their illegitimate children?  Robb Stark just got on Walder's bad side.  

 

Agree, better to kill a couple dozen at dinner than thousands in war, as it was put so succinctly in the book or show

 

Walder is actually pretty decent when it comes to his kids. Just gets a lot of hate due to how he treats women

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't get the impression that Cat has a particular hatred of bastards in general, just this bastard in particular:

Cat, and most of the nobility, have a dislike of bastards, for reasons that others have stated well. We know this because her little protege Sansa looks down her aristocratic snoot at all bastards. It's a comedown for Sansa to masquerade as the bastard "Alayne", but she knows she's among the highest born, and doesn't really internalize it. Kind of like Tyrion is a dwarf and knows it - but doesn't really comprehend what living as a dwarf is.

Really, there are plenty of other reasons to dislike old Walder Frey than his keeping his bastards in the Twin Towers with the rest of the family. His sneakiness, his exorbitant tolls, his failure as a bannerman, his grotesque libido ...

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15 minutes ago, lrresistable said:

Agree, better to kill a couple dozen at dinner than thousands in war, as it was put so succinctly in the book or show

Yeah. And even better to kill 10,000 at dinner than on the battlefield, where your side might actually get hurt, too. I get the impression that the most Frey casualties were caused by the Hound - and he was just dropping by.

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9 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Hoster Tully does not like Walder Frey. Walder Frey is one of the only lords who raises his bastards under his own roof and doesn’t treat them like servants (read: Falia Flowers). Is it possible that Hoster’s dislike of Walder’s practices rubbed off on Catelyn in her opinion of Jon Snow?

No, Cat is a studious and smart woman who knows history. She is keenly aware of the Aegon 4 debacle. Her children are the heirs to the north. She has concerns for their line  

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5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

 

I don't get the impression that Cat has a particular hatred of bastards in general, just this bastard in particular:

 

Not so.

Quote
"Mya Stone, if it please you, my lady," the girl said.
It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face.

AGOT Catelyn VI

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Many lords actually to raise their bastards in their castles - all those bastard who are referred to as 'the Bastard of X' are obviously raised at that castle - or live at the place when the reference is made (like Ramsay).

Being the son of Lord X doesn't make you the bastard of castle X. Only when you live there does this make sense. And there are quite a few bastards designated as such - although I'm pretty sure most bastards - especially those fathered on whores and the like - are neither acknowledged nor raised in the lord's castle.

But it is not that Ned's approach to his bastard is unique.

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15 hours ago, Sigella said:

Not so.

AGOT Catelyn VI

You clip off the context of that line:

It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.

Her reaction is because Mya's being a bastard makes her think of Jon.  She likes Mya just fine in the rest of the chapter, admires her competence, and even thinks her attitude reminds her of Sansa at one point.

On 10/19/2018 at 12:16 PM, Shouldve Taken The Black said:

No he's not. There are plenty of examples - Ronnet Connington, the Lannisters (Joy), Roose Bolton (eventually), Jonos Bracken. Plenty are mentioned in the World Book too.

It's better phrased as that lords don't raise their illegitimate children at home as long as their wife is around.  The lords you cite are either unmarried or widowers, generally.

Non-Ned examples of lords raising their illegitimate children in their household while their wife is alive are people like Aegon IV and Walder Frey, i.e., people who treat their wives very poorly.

18 hours ago, lrresistable said:

Agree, better to kill a couple dozen at dinner than thousands in war, as it was put so succinctly in the book or show.

That line is nonsense, and the sort of thing people use to justify war crimes (as, indeed, that's what the perpetrators of the Red Wedding are doing).

Quote

Walder is actually pretty decent when it comes to his kids. 

The way Walder runs his household guarantees a civil war when he dies, as other characters note. 

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We should be criticizing Viserys for abusing his sister.  Hating on Robert for the way he treated all women.  Bashing Jaime for the way he treats his children.  Walder Frey for belittling his bastards.  Hoster for forcing his daughter to abort her baby.  The Umber men should be crucified for continuing to screw young brides.  Why aren't we?  I don't know.  Are there more men in this forum?  

People might excuse Robert because it's their culture of the time.  Having first go at brides is northern culture for the Umber men.  Well, should we not extend the same understanding to Catelyn?  I mean, it is their custom to look down on bastards.  This bastard is a real threat to her own children's inheritance because Ned is bf with the king.  What if Ned lost his head one day and asked the king to legit Jon Snow to Jon Stark?  

Hoster Tully and many lords would put his foot down before bringing a bastard under his roof.  If that thinking affected Catelyn it's due to culture and Jon's unusual circumstances.  Catelyn is not alone in having this attitude.  Bring a bastard into a modern nuclear family and see how the wife reacts.  

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Just remember how Tyrion treated Jon during the ride to the wall.  He wasn't exactly nice.  He purposely said a lot of hurtful things to get at the boy.  

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