Daredevil Season 3 [SPOILERS - Page 3 and beyond]

[Dolorous Gabe]

10 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Another favorite in the season was Karen's confrontation with Fisk. Her turn of thinking the only thing she had was to sacrifice herself to make it so that others succeeded echoed Ray's turn later, but was far more about her damage and feeling of worthlessness. And the tension between the two of them was just brilliant. Very reminiscent of Silence of the Lambs. 

Totally agree, one of my favourite scenes of the season.

[Myrddin]

15 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Another favorite in the season was Karen's confrontation with Fisk. Her turn of thinking the only thing she had was to sacrifice herself to make it so that others succeeded echoed Ray's turn later, but was far more about her damage and feeling of worthlessness. And the tension between the two of them was just brilliant. Very reminiscent of Silence of the Lambs. 

Until she confessed to killing his friend. His turn from playing with her to barely contained rage was well done.

[HexMachina]

Always loved Karen as a character. Agreed the scene with Fisk was excellent.

Definitely on of my favourite Marvel Netflix series. I’m a minority that couldn’t get through Punisher so it ranks well above that. Probably tied with JJ season 1 for me. Killgrave and Fisk are definitely two of the more fascinatingly Marvel villains I’ve encountered to date

[Knight of Ashes]

Spoiler

So did DD get his suit back?

 

[HexMachina]

One thing I did notice, it’s not a criticism per se but something that I would like to see developed if the show continues

Spoiler

Vanessa’s character. Fisk spends so much time dwelling on her, fixating on her, and yet as an audience when meet her only briefly and get only a small tast of her character. Presumably intentional to keep her away the whole season but if we get more Daredevil I hope they develop her a bit

 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

One thing I did notice, it’s not a criticism per se but something that I would like to see developed if the show continues

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Vanessa’s character. Fisk spends so much time dwelling on her, fixating on her, and yet as an audience when meet her only briefly and get only a small tast of her character. Presumably intentional to keep her away the whole season but if we get more Daredevil I hope they develop her a bit

 

The couple of episodes we got of her left me with the impression they are soul mates and that she will happily wield his power to her own ends rather than being some victim caught up in things. I'd like to see her running things in a future season.

 

[mormont]

Just finished this. My first comment is, it took me a while to finish despite me being sick last weekend and having nothing to do but lie in bed and watch TV. I hit pause on ep 9 on Sunday at lunchtime, and didn't go back to it till yesterday. I've never done that with a Netflix Marvel show, not even Punisher or Iron Fist S1.

It's not that the early episodes are awful or anything: the fight choreography is easily the best of these series, agreed, and there are some great scenes in those early episodes. But in contrast to some of the comments here about pacing, I felt that the early episodes just dragged. Not only was there a feeling of 'seen this before' about some of the character work, with Matt in particular, that stuff was not just being reiterated from early seasons, but reiterated at length. The 'guilt olympics' with Matt and various other characters wallowing in angst over their decisions and personal relationships was particularly bad. I just don't find it interesting.

There are some tremendous scenes - the Kingpin/Karen scene should win those actors all the awards going - but they were occasional flowers in a ploughed field, for me.

I felt it got a lot better in the final four. There are still holes in the plot you can sail a container ship through, but the final four move quickly enough that you can ignore those. You have to accept that Fisk has Magic Lawyers and incredible powers of foresight, but it is a superhero story, in the end, and those are Fisk's superpowers.

On 10/24/2018 at 3:19 PM, Ran said:

Have to agree on Nadeem. I found it very refreshing how this show treated NYC's diversity as just, well, how it is. Indian-American FBI, lesbian lawyer (or was she an accountant? Can't remember) with a wife and kids, and so on without making the mistake of making these defining aspects of who they are or what their role in the story was.

The accountant character has literally four lines. She doesn't really have a character to define.

 

[red snow]

Mormont, I think we're on a similar wavelength here. Although I got through this much quicker than anything since Luke cage season 1. I think the problem is I know what to expect with these shows now in the sense of being resigned to stretched out plot and side plots so tend to pause them wherever and can happily leave for a couple of days.

Not sure if it's different in the UK but I wouldn't even expect being Indian to be a major part of nadeem's character. I'm pleased it wasn't. Not sure who the lesbian lawyer was unless they mean the one played by Carrie moss in other shows but not daredevil? 

I sort of like how bland foggy's girlfriend is in the sense she's a genuinely nice, supportive and uncomplicated person rather than being the evil corporate lawyer who will destroy foggy at the first sign of weakness. Not great TV but nice to see such characters amidst the angst and self doubt of all the main cast

[mormont]

41 minutes ago, red snow said:

Not sure who the lesbian lawyer was unless they mean the one played by Carrie moss in other shows but not daredevil? 

Karen goes to her house to get information about Red Lion bank.

41 minutes ago, red snow said:

I sort of like how bland foggy's girlfriend is in the sense she's a genuinely nice, supportive and uncomplicated person rather than being the evil corporate lawyer who will destroy foggy at the first sign of weakness. Not great TV but nice to see such characters amidst the angst and self doubt of all the main cast

You take that back! Marci is not bland.

Seriously, Marci is awesome. She's smart, caring, and tough. If I had to pick one of those characters to get me through a tough court case, it'd be Marci.

[GallowKnight]

12 minutes ago, mormont said:

You take that back! Marci is not bland.

Seriously, Marci is awesome. She's smart, caring, and tough. If I had to pick one of those characters to get me through a tough court case, it'd be Marci.

Yeah, Marci is all around great.

[red snow]

53 minutes ago, mormont said:

Karen goes to her house to get information about Red Lion bank.

You take that back! Marci is not bland.

Seriously, Marci is awesome. She's smart, caring, and tough. If I had to pick one of those characters to get me through a tough court case, it'd be Marci.

I totally agree, I'd hang out with her over any of the main cast. She's just bland in a TV/drama sense but great as a real human

[mormont]

The more I think about it, the less satisfactory the plot resolution in this season becomes.

Okay, Kingpin goes back to prison. Big deal. The entire season is premised on the fact that he can achieve a great deal despite being in prison.

He's not going to kill Foggy or Karen or reveal Matt's identity because Vanessa might get arrested. But the season begins with him being worried about Vanessa getting arrested and figuring out a way around that problem.

So the entire resolution of the plot is that we go back to the status quo ante, except now Kingpin knows who DD is. So he's actually in a stronger position than he started, and a lot of people died along the way.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

The more I think about it, the less satisfactory the plot resolution in this season becomes.

Okay, Kingpin goes back to prison. Big deal. The entire season is premised on the fact that he can achieve a great deal despite being in prison.

He's not going to kill Foggy or Karen or reveal Matt's identity because Vanessa might get arrested. But the season begins with him being worried about Vanessa getting arrested and figuring out a way around that problem.

So the entire resolution of the plot is that we go back to the status quo ante, except now Kingpin knows who DD is. So he's actually in a stronger position than he started, and a lot of people died along the way.

But the FBI corruption was revealed which really damaged his network. So his position is significantly weaker than at the start of the season. I agree it’s not a perfect resolution but I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s a return to the status quo

[mormont]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

But the FBI corruption was revealed which really damaged his network. So his position is significantly weaker than at the start of the season. I agree it’s not a perfect resolution but I wouldn’t go as far as saying it’s a return to the status quo

But as previously noted, generating this kind of behind-the-scenes corruption and influence is basically Kingpin's superpower. It's his whole deal. So to say that it was exposed is no more than to say that he was defeated, again. It doesn't stop him generating a new network, any more than the exposure of his corruption in S1 stopped him from corrupting the FBI this season.

So yeah, it literally is back to the status quo before this season.

[Spockydog]

Oops. Wrong thread. 

[Corvinus85]

45 minutes ago, mormont said:

But as previously noted, generating this kind of behind-the-scenes corruption and influence is basically Kingpin's superpower. It's his whole deal. So to say that it was exposed is no more than to say that he was defeated, again. It doesn't stop him generating a new network, any more than the exposure of his corruption in S1 stopped him from corrupting the FBI this season.

So yeah, it literally is back to the status quo before this season.

No it's not exactly the same. The reveal that he corrupted the FBI painted him in a new light. Whatever deals & moves he will try in the future will be doubly scrutinized. People now know what he's capable of. What network will he create a third time? Congress? the White House?

[mormont]

Just now, Corvinus said:

No it's not exactly the same. The reveal that he corrupted the FBI painted him in a new light. Whatever deals & moves he will try in the future will be doubly scrutinized.

As they realistically should have been this time around. But of course, we have to accept they weren't, because if we insist on realism, very little that the Kingpin does is honestly achievable.

Look, if we're trying to pretend that Kingpin is in any way handicapped by this latest setback, we're trying to pretend that the world of Daredevil doesn't work the way we know it works. Kingpin can get away with whatever the writers decide he can get away with. Can he corrupt the NYPD again? Sure. If a writer comes up with a good enough plot to explain how he does that, then he can and will do it. Same with the FBI, the US Marshals Service, the Coastguard, and yeah, Congress, if you like.

[Ran]

That sounds a lot like how things work in comic books. Supervillains are too useful to keep locked away forever, but the moral code of most superheroes prevent them from being killed despite this fact.

 

ETA: Which means I agree that his corrupting the FBI being exposed doesn't mean he himself is no longer able to corrupt agencies. Presumably he'll have to find another group and go about it in a different way, just to keep the story fresh. Not that we're likely to have to worry about it on Daredevil, given its uncertain fate and the reality that even if Netflix keeps making it its unlikely to go more than 5 seasons. I guess having Kingpin bust out and have a final confrontation with DD might be a thing if the show gets a genuine finale season...

[Mladen]

7 hours ago, mormont said:

Okay, Kingpin goes back to prison. Big deal. The entire season is premised on the fact that he can achieve a great deal despite being in prison.

Forgive me if I am mistaken, but isn't that how comics usually go? Especially with long-standing villains. The villain gets caught, the villain escapes, superhero catches the villain and then we go on...

I think that the season was more about Matt's psyche than his confrontation with Fisk. I felt like Matt is finally in peace with being Daredevil. There will some moral dilemmas along the way, but I felt that the climax was all about him and his realization that he is not the devil he thought he is, or at least the devil he thought Daredevil had to be.

[Myrddin]

Yeah, returning to status quo is how comics can cycle through their villains every year or so. Look how many times Joker is sent back to Arkham only to break out again for another rampage on the city.