Daredevil Season 3 [SPOILERS - Page 3 and beyond]

[briantw]

1 hour ago, Myrddin said:

Yeah, returning to status quo is how comics can cycle through their villains every year or so. Look how many times Joker is sent back to Arkham only to break out again for another rampage on the city.

Yup, it makes no sense, because in real life a cop would just gun Joker down the second or third time he broke out and mass-murdered a ton of civilians.  But it's the way comics have to work, because these are iconic characters that you want to keep around, even if keeping them around is sometimes illogical.  It's just the nature of the beast.

I have no problem with Kingpin going back to prison but with Matt now having leverage on his wife that could put her away.  It puts them in an uncomfortable stalemate, and in the comics this happens between the two frequently.

[mormont]

18 hours ago, Ran said:

That sounds a lot like how things work in comic books.

Sure - there's nothing more 'comic book' than everything resetting.

And it's not the return to status quo as such that I find unsatisfying - I kind of got drawn into that because people were arguing that it wasn't really the status quo. It's more how that happens. The resolution is the same as the inciting event - someone threatens Vanessa with jail. I find that unsatisfying, plot-wise. The first time that happens, it kicks off the Kingpin's plot, but the second time he meekly accepts it?

OK, he might not be genuine about that and we might later see (if there is another season) that he finds a way to move against DD and eliminate the threat to Vanessa. But still, it's a weird writing choice, for me.

This does raise another issue: if there is another season, does it have to have Kingpin? If not, who's our antagonist? We've done the Hand. Bullseye and Typhoid Mary would be fine as featured villains, but don't have enough to be actual season-long leading antagonists. The Owl's already dead. I mean, I'd pay good money for it to be Stilt-Man, but that's not likely. :p

[red snow]

Vanessa should be the main villain, ideally using 2-3 daredevil villains sequentially. This would help the pacing by breaking it into several mini-arcs. Typhoid Mary would tie up loose ends. A next gen "owl" character. Mr Hyde? Mr fear would work thematically against the man without fear. It's a shame Mysterio is in use by Spidey as Mysterio would be great messing with daredevil's senses. Gladiator has been hinted at but I'm a bit uncomfortable with the show's character as he is clearly of very low IQ and suggestible and to be honest daredevil's treatment of the character has been ethically dubious.

A storyline that was good in the comics was the discovery that Matt was daredevil and how he handled that legally. The show isn't really in the right place for that story though as he's not really a well known lawyer and currently daredevil is thought to be a killer.

[dbunting]

I really liked this season, not the ending so much, but the season as a whole.

I agree to a point that we are basically back where we ended S1. Not much changed, Matt Foggy and Karen are going to be working together, Kingpin is locked up in a place he can corrupt, Vanessa is free, innocent people died.

I thought the set up for S4 is Vanessa being the baddy and Dex being her henchman. He seemed to want to please her and she seemed to like him, unless it was just me getting that vibe.

[WarGalley]

20 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I thought the set up for S4 is Vanessa being the baddy and Dex being her henchman. He seemed to want to please her and she seemed to like him, unless it was just me getting that vibe.

Gonna spoiler it just in case.

Spoiler

I saw it more as Vanessa is the baddy that Dex goes after in revenge for Julie. DD has to intervene to keep to the Kingpin's agreement which also gets Kingpin involved. I don't mind that take at all as we get a deeper level of personal rivalry between DD and Bullseye... but that does feel like we're treading old ground with Kingpin/Vanessa/Matt. Vanessa would need to get a Daredevil villain for a henchman to shake things up and Bullseye needs to come into his own as the grinning arch enemy for Daredevil. Bullseye was a good villain but I never felt like he was truly Daredevil's archenemy. I thought Bullseye was going to kill Sister Maggie this season.. but that's now an option for S4 if we assume Karen has plot armor. 

 

[Knight of Ashes]

40 minutes ago, dbunting said:

 

I thought the set up for S4 is Vanessa being the baddy and Dex being her henchman. He seemed to want to please her and she seemed to like him, unless it was just me getting that vibe.

Thought it was Dex wanting to please her 'cause it would please Kingpin since he was under the delusion that Kingpin saw him as the replacement for that guy that Karen killed.

Spoiler

Anyway, I was rooting for Dex to nail Vanessa 'cause I wanted Kingpin completely broken and defeated as he's put away just so's the creators of this show could take up the challenge again of coming up with another worthy arch-nemesis that doesn't involve evil ninjas  wthat never developed any kind of strategy for using teamwork to take down a superior fire despite their organization being around for centuries.

 

[dbunting]

49 minutes ago, WarGalley said:

Gonna spoiler it just in case.

  Hide contents

I saw it more as Vanessa is the baddy that Dex goes after in revenge for Julie. DD has to intervene to keep to the Kingpin's agreement which also gets Kingpin involved. I don't mind that take at all as we get a deeper level of personal rivalry between DD and Bullseye... but that does feel like we're treading old ground with Kingpin/Vanessa/Matt. Vanessa would need to get a Daredevil villain for a henchman to shake things up and Bullseye needs to come into his own as the grinning arch enemy for Daredevil. Bullseye was a good villain but I never felt like he was truly Daredevil's archenemy. I thought Bullseye was going to kill Sister Maggie this season.. but that's now an option for S4 if we assume Karen has plot armor. 

 

Ok, I don't know the comics stories but that makes more sense then what I was thinking.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

So I'm late to the party here, but I think DD S3, if it is indeed the final season, missed a great opportunity to have Bullseye [Some DD comic spoilers below]. . .

...kill Karen. She dies in the comics and it would've been a good sub for him killing Elektra. Mysterio kills Karen in the comics, but he's in the new Spidey Far From Home movie, so I highly doubt he'll show up in the Netflix-verse. Karen's death would've had the emotional gravitas to really cap the series. Matt in a new suit atop the church as the series final shot. A great trilogy of seasons for DD done and dusted. However...

...It's highly likely the S3 showrunners assumed S4 would be a given, so it's understandable S3 ended the way it did, with opportunity to go forward with the same cast into S4.

But the cancellation of Luke Cage after that whopper of a cliffhanger in S2 shows Netflix is not afraid to let Marvel properties go, and DD seems to be in a bit of limbo as far as its future. According to the Interwebs, Luke Cage S2 was canceled because Netflix and Marvel couldn't agree on how to continue it. Jessica Jones S3 & Punisher S2 are in production, but I'm thinking Netflix is likely gonna just end its Marvel-verse so it can focus on the Mark Millar (Millarworld) properties it now owns outright.

I just hope these iterations of the characters get a decent send off in the Netflix realm. Maybe there'll be a Defenders movie (or second miniseries) where they all turn to dust at the end. It's not likely though.

[dog-days]

I don't think fridging

Spoiler

Karen

would be an especially great plot move. Why not fridge Foggy instead? At least that would have a bit of shock value since it's unusual to kill off the funny crowd-pleasing sidekick. 

[Corvinus85]

2 minutes ago, dog-days said:

I don't think fridging

  Hide contents

Karen

would be an especially great plot move. Why not fridge Foggy instead? At least that would have a bit of shock value since it's unusual to kill off the funny crowd-pleasing sidekick. 

That would result in the writers being involved in a hallway fight with angry fans.

[Morpheus]

I mentioned it early on in this thread, but I was surprised that they literally fridged (okay, freezered) a woman this season.

[HexMachina]

13 hours ago, Corvinus said:

That would result in the writers being involved in a hallway fight with angry fans.

Moreso than Karen would? Is foggy really more popular with fans? 

[red snow]

1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Moreso than Karen would? Is foggy really more popular with fans? 

For me they are of equal standing. I honestly wouldn't mind either being killed in service of the story particularly when the show might not get another season.

13 hours ago, Morpheus said:

I mentioned it early on in this thread, but I was surprised that they literally fridged (okay, freezered) a woman this season.

The difference with Karen is it wouldn't have to be fridging. She gets involved and is usually a target because she's the threat to the villain - not because the villain wants to punish daredevil. Take this season, kingpin wanted to kill Karen for killing his aide not out of her connection with daredevil.

Fridging for me is when a character(usually a female love interest) is killed off solely because of their connection to the hero and where their death only counts in the sense it affects the hero. That shouldn't be the case with Karen or foggy as they exist within the show.

[mormont]

And yet PP's suggestion was absolutely fridging: he bemoans a 'lost opportunity' to kill Karen off, purely to make her death a motivating factor for Matt. Not even for anything in this season, but just to leave Matt in a place PP thinks would have 'emotional gravitas'.

It would be possible for the series to kill Karen off without fridging her. But what PP is talking about is definitely fridging her.

[Heartofice]

I just finished S3 of Daredevil and it has delighted me almost throughout. The first episode or two were rather slow I will admit, but it has made me remember the sense of excitement I felt when they announced the Netflix Marvel TV shows. Daredevil has at times been the small screen Dark Knight and its really been able to balance a realistic setting with a bunch of people running around in funny suits (except the silly ninjas in S2 which were clearly out of place)

It has made me feel even worse for Luke Cage and Iron Fist, at what totally missed opportunities they were. And I now have a massive sense of anger even thinking about Defenders and what a dumpster fire it was by the end.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

On 11/17/2018 at 8:02 AM, mormont said:

And yet PP's suggestion was absolutely fridging: he bemoans a 'lost opportunity' to kill Karen off, purely to make her death a motivating factor for Matt. Not even for anything in this season, but just to leave Matt in a place PP thinks would have 'emotional gravitas'.

It would be possible for the series to kill Karen off without fridging her. But what PP is talking about is definitely fridging her.

First of all, I  forgot about the term "fridging," and y'all sent me on a rabbit hole of googling for the last 25 minutes or so. It seems like the term has evolved and has different various contextual meanings since it gained Net fame as a term to mock a trope in comics and films/TV. For example, earlier someone mentioned "fridging" Foggy, but for some "fridging" by definition can only occur with a female character. 

* Warning, older Daredevil comic book spoilers below! *

My comment of having Bullseye kill Karen as a "missed opportunity" is from three points about the characters DD, Bullseye, and Karen Page from the comics:

1. Arguably the most iconic piece of art or story in Bullseye's history is him killing Elektra with her own sai. Even before I ever picked up a single issue of DD to read, I knew that image and story about DD, Bullseye and Elektra. Since the Series already killed, resurrected, and killed(?) Elektra again, I though a good sub for that character defining moment for Bullseye would be for him to kill Karen. Why?

2. Because one of the storyline's S3 is based on is "Guardian Devil" by Kevin Smith. In that storyline Mysterio kills Karen in a church in front of Matt. Thus adding Karen to the list of women Matt lets down or "can't protect," which leads me to the other reason Karen's death would've carried the most emotional gravitas for Matt...

3. One of the themes for Matt/DD in the comics is that he constantly let's down the women he loves.  The show did this in S1 with Claire & S2 with Elektra, so Karen would've seemingly been the logical choice for S3--especially if S3 is going to be the final season of the series. We finally get a great episode with Karen's back story, so it would seem that if Karen where to die then Bullseye doing the deed in S3 (arguably) would've had the greatest emotional impact on both the audience and Matt. Matt does not get many happy endings. DD's victories are often Pyrrhic.

So while our three main characters, Matt, Foggy, & Karen all get a wonderful, happy ending in S3, it just doesn't feel like a Daredevil ending--especially if it turns out to be a series finale and not just a season finale. And if that's "fridging," then it's not something I'm just throwing out there on a whim or just because--it's what would be more true to the source material and overall tone of the character of Daredevil and the stories centered around him.

[briantw]

5 minutes ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

2. Because one of the storyline's S3 is based on is "Guardian Devil" by Kevin Smith. In that storyline Mysterio kills Karen in a church in front of Matt. Thus adding Karen to the list of women Matt lets down or "can't protect," which leads me to the other reason Karen's death would've carried the most emotional gravitas for Matt...

It was Bullseye who killed her.

[PetyrPunkinhead]

9 hours ago, briantw said:

It was Bullseye who killed her.

*checks wikipedia* Damn, you're right! Mysterio was the "mastermind" of the arc but he hired Bullseye to kill Karen. 

[red snow]

The difference between the comic and TV show though is that Matt had had a long relationship with Karen in the comics. As it stands I'd say Foggy or Karen would have equal impact on him. Arguably Foggy as they went through university together and have more history in the TV show.

What was impressive about the season (particularly for those with a passing knowledge of the comics) was that foggy and Karen never felt safe this season. I guess that's the impact bullseye has as the guy who tends to kill the people close to Matt

[HexMachina]

9 minutes ago, red snow said:

The difference between the comic and TV show though is that Matt had had a long relationship with Karen in the comics. As it stands I'd say Foggy or Karen would have equal impact on him. Arguably Foggy as they went through university together and have more history in the TV show.

What was impressive about the season (particularly for those with a passing knowledge of the comics) was that foggy and Karen never felt safe this season. I guess that's the impact bullseye has as the guy who tends to kill the people close to Matt

I never felt foggy was in danger this season actually. As he said himself, too visible and high profile. But Karen has always felt more endangered , not because of Matt but because she puts herself in situations that are exceptionally dangerous and marks herself as a target.

Which is why I hate the idea of killing her to give Matt angst. She’s a brilliant character with her own demons and enemies, killing her off to serve Matt’s plot and character is boring.