Jump to content
RedEyedGhost

Daredevil Season 3 [SPOILERS - Page 3 and beyond]

Recommended Posts

9 minutes ago, red snow said:

The difference between the comic and TV show though is that Matt had had a long relationship with Karen in the comics. As it stands I'd say Foggy or Karen would have equal impact on him. Arguably Foggy as they went through university together and have more history in the TV show.

What was impressive about the season (particularly for those with a passing knowledge of the comics) was that foggy and Karen never felt safe this season. I guess that's the impact bullseye has as the guy who tends to kill the people close to Matt

I never felt foggy was in danger this season actually. As he said himself, too visible and high profile. But Karen has always felt more endangered , not because of Matt but because she puts herself in situations that are exceptionally dangerous and marks herself as a target.

Which is why I hate the idea of killing her to give Matt angst. She’s a brilliant character with her own demons and enemies, killing her off to serve Matt’s plot and character is boring. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I never felt foggy was in danger this season actually. As he said himself, too visible and high profile. But Karen has always felt more endangered , not because of Matt but because she puts herself in situations that are exceptionally dangerous and marks herself as a target.

Which is why I hate the idea of killing her to give Matt angst. She’s a brilliant character with her own demons and enemies, killing her off to serve Matt’s plot and character is boring. 

The scene where he confronted bullseye in the office I thought he could have genuinely died. I agree he was safe to a point with his open attacks on Fisk. The cool thing about Fisk is he knows he doesn't have to kill problems, as manipulating foggy's brother showed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, red snow said:

The scene where he confronted bullseye in the office I thought he could have genuinely died. I agree he was safe to a point with his open attacks on Fisk. The cool thing about Fisk is he knows he doesn't have to kill problems, as manipulating foggy's brother showed

The other cool thing about Fisk is that while he knows this intellectually he has massive psychotic rage, and can be manipulated into killing problems when he's too angry. It means we know he can be coldly tactical and ruthless, but he can also just slip into that instead. It's a great villain, and one sorely missed last season. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The other cool thing about Fisk is that while he knows this intellectually he has massive psychotic rage, and can be manipulated into killing problems when he's too angry. It means we know he can be coldly tactical and ruthless, but he can also just slip into that instead. It's a great villain, and one sorely missed last season. 

"Give me your coat."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Kalbear said:

The other cool thing about Fisk is that while he knows this intellectually he has massive psychotic rage, and can be manipulated into killing problems when he's too angry. It means we know he can be coldly tactical and ruthless, but he can also just slip into that instead. It's a great villain, and one sorely missed last season. 

Missed in the MCU in general although thanos and killmonger suggest they are getting the hang of this finally. They've always cast good actors as villains but rarely given them much to do. I like how donforio treats the role as if it's a role actors would kill for and not just a "TV comic villain".

Like you say it's the complexity of the character where the intellect has to constantly try and keep tabs on his rage that makes him so fun to watch and so unpredictable. It's not just a case of expecting him to kill or manipulate. I also found his loyalty to Westley oddly endearing.

Basically I could happily watch a show based solely around kingpin. I was on the fence in season 1 but season 3 won me over

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, red snow said:

Basically I could happily watch a show based solely around kingpin. I was on the fence in season 1 but season 3 won me over

I think that almost all of the Netflix MCU properties are only as good as their side characters / main villains.

DD season one had Kingpin
DD season 2 had Kinpin and Punisher.. and got worse when they dropped out.
JJ main quality was great when Kilgrave was on screen.
Luke Cage was great while Cottonmouth was around. 
Iron Fist was... oh it was always awful.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I think that almost all of the Netflix MCU properties are only as good as their side characters / main villains.

DD season one had Kingpin
DD season 2 had Kinpin and Punisher.. and got worse when they dropped out.
JJ main quality was great when Kilgrave was on screen.
Luke Cage was great while Cottonmouth was around. 
Iron Fist was... oh it was always awful.

 

That's a pretty compelling argument and dies correlate with when shows dropped in quality too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, red snow said:

That's a pretty compelling argument and dies correlate with when shows dropped in quality too

Thanks. Maybe its just that the main characters are generally pretty empty and are ciphers to build stories around. I certainly feel that way about everyone except Matt Murdoch. JJ and LC should be interesting, but JJ is nothing more than a mopey alcoholic and LC has very one dimensional issues that seem to prevent me getting to know him as a character. 

Matt Murdoch has at least a level of depth to him which keeps him reasonably interesting, even if the same points seem to get rolled out every season about him trying to be better and trying not to hurt people. 

I guess its a bit like Batman only ever being as interesting as the villains he faces.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure how you can call JJ and LC one dimensional while saying Matt has a lot of depth to him. I would say Jessica and Luke both have plenty of depth and moral ambiguity to them. Anger issues, abusiveness, alcoholism, self-destructive behaviour, their very complicated relationships with their various co-stars, their struggles to adjust...plenty there that gives them depth. In particular Jessica’s struggle with guilt over what Killgrave made her do, and trying to overcome that and the horror and shame of being raped by him, and the loneliness and isolation after her parents died is pretty compelling watching for me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Not sure how you can call JJ and LC one dimensional while saying Matt has a lot of depth to him. I would say Jessica and Luke both have plenty of depth and moral ambiguity to them. Anger issues, abusiveness, alcoholism, self-destructive behaviour, their very complicated relationships with their various co-stars, their struggles to adjust...plenty there that gives them depth. In particular Jessica’s struggle with guilt over what Killgrave made her do, and trying to overcome that and the horror and shame of being raped by him, and the loneliness and isolation after her parents died is pretty compelling watching for me

Ok well fair enough. Probably better to say that almost all the main character in the Netflix marvel series were pretty one dimensional. I tended to connect more with Matt, possibly because his supporting cast helped to bring more out of the character.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2018 at 7:25 AM, Heartofice said:

I think that almost all of the Netflix MCU properties are only as good as their side characters / main villains.

DD season one had Kingpin
DD season 2 had Kinpin and Punisher.. and got worse when they dropped out.
JJ main quality was great when Kilgrave was on screen.
Luke Cage was great while Cottonmouth was around. 
Iron Fist was... oh it was always awful.

 

Yeah, but you can say that for most superhero stories in general, no? 

JJ S2 had a lot of great moments, but the season just wasn't cohesive enough. I still think Jessica Jones has a lot of potential, and I'm eager to see what they do with her in S3 next year. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, PetyrPunkinhead said:

Yeah, but you can say that for most superhero stories in general, no? 

JJ S2 had a lot of great moments, but the season just wasn't cohesive enough. I still think Jessica Jones has a lot of potential, and I'm eager to see what they do with her in S3 next year. 

Well that’s definitely the case with Batman, who excels when he has better villains to bounce off of. 

But the marvel movies in general have had a pretty weak array of villains outside of Loki and Thanos. They’ve still managed to be highly entertaining and make me care for the main character.

ive always just found JJs depressed EMO side a little irritating and hard to endear myself to, she just seems so relentlessly miserable and sarcastic that I find no joy in watching her. At least the purple man added some desperately needed energy to that season and I found I was only interested in the couple of episodes more focussed on him unfortunately 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/21/2018 at 2:57 AM, red snow said:

I like how donforio treats the role as if it's a role actors would kill for and not just a "TV comic villain".

Wow I've just binged through all of DD (I hadn't watched it earlier) and didn't even recognise D'Onofrio. Between the bulk, the shaved head and the very deliberate voice he uses he just disappeared into that role. Superb.

I also watched Defenders again in between S2 and S3 and I actually enjoyed that a lot more on the second viewing despite the weaknesses of The Hand. On the second watch it felt more obvious that this all happened really fast which makes it easier to accept they failed to adapt to suddenly being faced with powered individuals. They'd never hit a real challenge to them before this, and the first clash led to a retreat from the Defenders so it wasn't quite the smack down that would really cause them to reassess or back off - but it did make them wary enough they felt the need to rush their plans. It worked for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/18/2018 at 11:18 PM, PetyrPunkinhead said:

My comment of having Bullseye kill Karen as a "missed opportunity" is from three points about the characters DD, Bullseye, and Karen Page from the comics:

[snip]

These can be summed up as 'DD comics did a lot of fridging in the iconic '80s run and resonance with that run is blinding me to, or overcoming my objections to, fridging'.

The death of Elektra is an iconic moment which was already homaged this season with the priest being impaled (by a billy club, which is a bit weird but that was clearly what they were going for). Why do it again? Why homage any Kevin Smith comic? And why is it so important that DD lets down specifically the women in his life? 

23 hours ago, Heartofice said:

ive always just found JJs depressed EMO side a little irritating and hard to endear myself to, she just seems so relentlessly miserable and sarcastic that I find no joy in watching her. 

And yet you think the depressed, emo, relentlessly miserable Matt Murdock to have 'depth'?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect the constant sarcasm that's the harder part to take for @Heartofice. I don't blame him, I think that sort of character works better on the page than on the screen. Like the Queen of Thorns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Ran said:

I suspect the constant sarcasm that's the harder part to take for @Heartofice. I don't blame him, I think that sort of character works better on the page than on the screen. Like the Queen of Thorns.

Yeah that is probably it. DD season 3 really suffered at first from having Matt being a mopey EMO guy, mainly because it felt like a big retread of things we had seen before. But I was fine with it in season 1 and maybe 2. The difference is probably that he had some lighter interactions with foggy and karen inbetween to brighten the atmos. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/26/2018 at 4:54 AM, mormont said:

These can be summed up as 'DD comics did a lot of fridging in the iconic '80s run and resonance with that run is blinding me to, or overcoming my objections to, fridging'.

The death of Elektra is an iconic moment which was already homaged this season with the priest being impaled (by a billy club, which is a bit weird but that was clearly what they were going for). Why do it again? Why homage any Kevin Smith comic? And why is it so important that DD lets down specifically the women in his life? 

It wasn't paying homage to Elektra's death, it was paying homage to Karen's comic death, in which she is impaled by one of Daredevil's billy clubs in a church by Bullseye.

As for why to pay homage to a Kevin Smith comic, it's because Kevin Smith was responsible for rebooting Daredevil for what I would call his best overall comic book run.  Sure, Smith played a small part in that, as he only wrote a handful of comics, but the overall run with Bendis doing the bulk of the work was fantastic and has clearly been a major inspiration for the Daredevil Netflix series. 

When you think of iconic Daredevil tales, I think you're either thinking of stories written by Frank Miller or Brian Michael Bendis, and the Bendis run came right after Smith rebooted the comic.

Edited by briantw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That answers that for the rest of the Marvel Netflix shows I guess, if DD can't stand on its own then JJ and Punisher will go as well. Up until now I still wasn't ruling out a combined show. I wanted to see Colleen as IF and Misty working together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×