Brandon Ice-Eyes Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 So in ASOIAF, I vaguely remember that Tyrion thinks that Kevan is Tywins vanguard in council, meaning that kevan will shape the council how Tywin wants the council to go, just as a vanguard would shape the battle in war. So does this mean that Tywin has already decided his plans prior to the council and all of the lords of the small council, That being Randall Tarly, mace Tyrell and patter redywne are powerless? Tyrion thinks as much during the council however I’d like to hear other people’s opinion, Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 The hand of the king doesn't need the approval of the council as long as he has the king's confidence. I am not sure where Tywin is coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Any competent negotiator who goes into a meeting should have his plans clear beforehand, of course. It is important to plan carefully how to introduce any delicate issue, and anticipate the reactions that will cause in order to counter them It is always very helpful to have someone in league with you that introduces your proposals in an exaggerated and oversized manner. This way, after they are opposed, you can step in and propose some kind of middle ground that it was your actual idea to begin with. This way, you get what you want while keeping an aura of a fair and ponderate arbiter. I'm sure Tywin used this strategy many times. 43 minutes ago, Enuma Elish said: The hand of the king doesn't need the approval of the council as long as he has the king's confidence. I am not sure where Tywin is coming from. This may be true on occasions, but not then. Tywin needed the approval of the Tyrells and their bannermen to maintain control of the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted October 21, 2018 Share Posted October 21, 2018 Tywin doesn't use meetings as a discussion to plan strategy. He uses them to inform his subordinates of the strategy he decided while granting them the illusion of participation. Kevan's job is pretty much to keep the conversation going in a direction Tywin wants it, so yes they discuss what's to happen before hand. Tyrion observed something like "Kevan never has a thought that Tywin didn't put there before hand." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 On 10/21/2018 at 1:28 PM, •Brandon Ice Eyes said: So does this mean that Tywin has already decided his plans prior to the council and all of the lords of the small council, That being Randall Tarly, mace Tyrell and patter redywne are powerless? Tyrion thinks as much during the council however I’d like to hear other people’s opinion, Thanks. I think Tywin had already decided, but he needed to maintain the appearance of them making their own decisions. On 10/21/2018 at 2:56 PM, The hairy bear said: This may be true on occasions, but not then. Tywin needed the approval of the Tyrells and their bannermen to maintain control of the realm. Yeah that - but who is going to defy Tywin. It was formality. Tywin let it happen out of courtesy. Who else they going to rally behind? That'd be a 3rd person they were loyal to if they betrayed the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said: Yeah that - but who is going to defy Tywin. It was formality. Tywin let it happen out of courtesy. Who else they going to rally behind? Dany? Aegon VI? Any future unforeseen candidate? The Tyrells saved the Lannisters' ass at the Blackwater not not because of altruistic inclinations, but as a part of a deal. And the reward for the Tyrell's helps was, among others, having their people in key positions at court and a say in the realm's government. If the Tyrells felt that Tywin ignoring them and not keeping his end of the bargain, they could easily leave the realm in chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, The hairy bear said: Dany? Aegon VI? Any future unforeseen candidate? The Tyrells saved the Lannisters' ass at the Blackwater not not because of altruistic inclinations, but as a part of a deal. And the reward for the Tyrell's helps was, among others, having their people in key positions at court and a say in the realm's government. If the Tyrells felt that Tywin ignoring them and not keeping his end of the bargain, they could easily leave the realm in chaos. Perhaps. But I think the threat of a Dornish Westerlands alliance would prevent that. At this point anyway. Maybe later when Dany and fAegon are more present, but at this point I think Tywin has his ducks in a halfway decent row. That is why Tywin is so careful to allow the farce - to make them feel like they are not being ignored etc. It would be chaotic no doubt if they left - but at this point I do not see them leaving the Lannister camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shouldve Taken The Black Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 On 10/21/2018 at 7:12 PM, Enuma Elish said: The hand of the king doesn't need the approval of the council as long as he has the king's confidence. I am not sure where Tywin is coming from. Well, if he had to force a very important point, he maybe could have fallen back on that. Still, he’s careful throughout ASOS not to antagonise or alienate the Tyrells. They’re a powerful ally, and could be a powerful enemy if he rubs them the wrong way. Cersei had the “authority” to do what she liked, and did so without bothering to keep the Tyrells on side, and her regime was short-lived as a result. It’s actually a pretty basic management strategy to give the illusion of consensus. Tywin and Kevan are just being typical committee manipulators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble Maester Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 Just here to provide the relevant quotes for the points on Kevan being Tywin's vanguard in meetings made by many of the posters above (just because I felt like checking what they were): Quote Ser Kevan leaned forward. "We had a thought to put you and your wildlings in the vanguard when we come to battle." Ser Kevan seldom "had a thought" that Lord Tywin had not had first. AGOT Tyrion VIII and especially Quote "We have no lack of foes," said Ser Kevan Lannister. "If the Eyrie can be kept out of the war, all to the good. I am of a mind to see what Lord Petyr can accomplish." Ser Kevan was his brother's vanguard in council, Tyrion knew from long experience; he never had a thought that Lord Tywin had not had first. It has all been settled beforehand, he concluded, and this discussion's no more than show. The sheep were bleating their agreement, unaware of how neatly they'd been shorn, so it fell to Tyrion to object. "How will the crown pay its debts without Lord Petyr? He is our wizard of coin, and we have no one to replace him." ASOS Tyrion III Though one must recall these of course come from Tyrion's point of view, which while insightful is also horribly biased against his father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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