Would you classify Joffery as a pscopath or sociopath?

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Joffrey sounds like a psychopath in the making. We know despite “medieval sensibilities “ that King Robert, who was quite a brutal warrior, was sickened by Joffrey’s conduct with the pregnant cat.

And there are quite a few people who might be abhorred by Robert's hunting practices. This is the difference between accepted and not accepted animal cruelty. Joff tries to emulate his father in the accepted practice after he learned that the cat thing was not accepted.

We don't exactly know what triggered Joff's cat thing - as I said, curiosity might have been part of it. Robert's reaction to it was as bad as the thing itself, and not helpful at all - but without Joffrey actually repeatedly hurting or torturing animals this is not exactly that much of a character trait. It is a hint that Joff might not be exactly like any other child, but nothing more than that. Especially since he supposedly was rather early when he did that.

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Doesn’t Joff also do a little crossbow practice with animals? And, of course, Martin doesn’t say these are the only times that he would have done things like that, it is just what is included in our story.

He tries to hunt hares with his crossbow, yes. Sounds exactly like the kind of spoiled aristocrats do, both in Westeros and in our world. Hunting is the favorite pastime of nobility and royalty.

1 hour ago, HoodedCrow said:

Then we have his treatment of Sansa to “observe”.

That is where various things bleed together. But when Robb took his sword and hacked away on Rickard Karstark's neck he was also not doing something he wanted to do - he was doing things he thought were expected of him. Joff thought he had to execute Ned to prove he was a strong and manly king who wasn't following the advice of weak women, and he thought he had to send a sign to Robb/the world that he was sitting idly by while the Starks continued to challenge his rule.

He certainly did not resent having to do such things, and is in this send 'less normal' than Daenerys (when she rejects killing her hostages or shuts down Daario's red wedding idea), Catelyn, or Doran, but it is not that he crosses lines a king cannot cross when doing all of that.

Aside from the fact that Joff is not very intelligent he seems to share a lot of traits of his grandfather. Young Tywin was exactly on the same page as Joff when dealing with hostages or showing cruelty to helpless and effectively defeated enemies. After Tywin had finished the Reynes and Tarbecks he learned how to control himself more, but on the private level (Tyrion's 'lesson') he remained a completely unhinged and sadistic guy.

I mean, depending how many people the Reynes had in Castamere Tywin actually killed thousands of innocents there. And this atrocity was actually made immortal in song.

Overall, the Lannisters also have the weaker/less impressive traits of Tytos, Kevan, and Gerion. Daven and Stafford also seemed to more down-to-earth, average people, explaining why Myrcella and Tommen aren't that impressive people. Joffrey, on the other hand, is truly Cersei and Jaime's son and Tywin's grandson.

[DMC]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Technically, yeah, but one wonders what stableboys and butcher boys like Mycah do to other animals, and how visible suffering and dying animals must be, I doubt modern-day criteria of animal cruelty are identical to those one would use in a medieval world.

Perhaps not identical, but I generally disagree here.  Anecdote time:  When I was a kid I'd go to my uncle's dairy every summer and work in the mornings with my little cousin.  One summer (when I was about exactly Joffrey's age), this stray dog started following me and my cousin around.  When my uncle caught wind of it he sent my cousin home and we hanged the dog.  One of my jobs on the dairy was to pick up the calfs that were trampled to death because they were born in the pens.  Point is, I don't think rural life today is much different than the medieval world in terms of treatment of animals (although I agree a butcher's son may be predisposed to more cruel acts). 

Cutting open a pregnant cat for no tangible reason is innately sick, regardless of the time period or culture.  And I think it's pretty apparent Martin includes that story to emphasize that point.  I mean, the story comes out of nowhere in terms of context.  Davos tells Stannis Joff is indeed dead, Stannis is preparing to burn his bastard nephew, and then he randomly recounts that story?  Its inclusion at that time seems weird in general.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Overall, the Lannisters also have the weaker/less impressive traits of Tytos, Kevan, and Gerion. Daven and Stafford also seemed to more down-to-earth, average people, explaining why Myrcella and Tommen aren't that impressive people. Joffrey, on the other hand, is truly Cersei and Jaime's son and Tywin's grandson.

Man, sometimes I'm truly baffled by your choice of vocabulary.  Myrcella and Tommen aren't "impressive" people?  Because they're not sadistic twats like their brother?  Myrcella is spoken highly of by pretty much every character that renders an opinion - in virtually every way as well.  You'd be hard-pressed to find a character that people are more universally "impressed" by.  Tommen, well...Tommen... /Fredo reference.

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Perhaps not identical, but I generally disagree here.  Anecdote time:  When I was a kid I'd go to my uncle's dairy every summer and work in the mornings with my little cousin.  One summer (when I was about exactly Joffrey's age), this stray dog started following me and my cousin around.  When my uncle caught wind of it he sent my cousin home and we hanged the dog.  One of my jobs on the dairy was to pick up the calfs that were trampled to death because they were born in the pens.  Point is, I don't think rural life today is much different than the medieval world in terms of treatment of animals (although I agree a butcher's son may be predisposed to more cruel acts).

If you do that kind of work regularly your ability to do that kind of stuff to human beings, too, rises considerable, especially if you start it early. It doesn't mean you have to do it, of course, but when/if you feel like it, it would be easier for you to actually do it. I mean, when I take my cat to the veterinarian I have trouble dealing with the whining she does when put in the cage to carry her. And if you know how smart and empathic pigs are, it should be very tough to actually hurt and kill them - you have let go of a considerable amount of empathy if you take on those mammals that are relatively close to human beings.

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Cutting open a pregnant cat for no tangible reason is innately sick, regardless of the time period or culture.  And I think it's pretty apparent Martin includes that story to emphasize that point.  I mean, the story comes out of nowhere in terms of context.  Davos tells Stannis Joff is indeed dead, Stannis is preparing to burn his bastard nephew, and then he randomly recounts that story?  Its inclusion at that time seems weird in general.

Joff wanted to take a look at the kittens inside the cat. Assuming he saw how the butchers and stableboy were putting down the cattle, sheep, pigs, etc. they all eat - and how people deal with injured horses and oxen - I don't think that he is without a tangible reason.

It certainly shows a lack of empathy - the question I'm asking is whether he has less empathy than the average guy butchering people for meat. The fact that you know you have to kill the animals to eat/sell the meat doesn't change what you have to do to actually routinely kill such animals.

2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Man, sometimes I'm truly baffled by your choice of vocabulary.  Myrcella and Tommen aren't "impressive" people?  Because they're not sadistic twats like their brother?  Myrcella is spoken highly of by pretty much every character that renders an opinion - in virtually every way as well.  You'd be hard-pressed to find a character that people are more universally "impressed" by.  Tommen, well...Tommen... /Fredo reference.

No, I meant they are not impressive in the sense that we can expect 'great things' from them, either good or bad (although that's also in part because they will be soon dead). Actually, Myrcella is so irrelevant to the story that George changed her character from nearly retarded (AGoT) to pretty intelligent (AFfC). Jon thinks Myrcella is vapid and stupid in AGoT, and the her reaction to Arya's behavior when she runs away sort of supports that.

[DMC]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If you do that kind of work regularly your ability to do that kind of stuff to human beings, too, rises considerable, especially if you start it early.

That's...quite an ambitious assertion.  And an unfounded one at that.

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff wanted to take a look at the kittens inside the cat. Assuming he saw how the butchers and stableboy were putting down the cattle, sheep, pigs, etc. they all eat - and how people deal with injured horses and oxen - I don't think that he is without a tangible reason.

How does opening up a pregnant cat relate to butchering/putting down livestock?  And how does that constitute a tangible reason?  Wide gaps in logic here.  Further, how many examples/accounts to we actually have of Joffrey witnessing butchers or whatever putting down livestock?  I don't recall much of that.

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

the question I'm asking is whether he has less empathy than the average guy butchering people for meat.

Fair enough.  My answer would be an emphatic yes - it demonstrates significantly less empathy (or, even, none).

ETA:  Assuming you meant "the average guy butchering animals" here and it was just a typo.  If you actually meant butchering people, well, I reserve the right to revise my answer

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, I meant they are not impressive in the sense that we can expect 'great things' from them, either good or bad (although that's also in part because they will be soon dead).

Ah, gotcha - you should be more clear about that!  Anyway, neither here nor there, but I didn't get the sense Myrcella was "nearly retarded" in AGOT.  Jon's opinion is obviously influenced by the fact he's bitter and sulking at the time.  Arya also calls her a baby, but that's her own biases/context.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's...quite an ambitious assertion.  And an unfounded one at that.

Could be. But I really have issues with hurting animals, and would make only a difference in degree between killing a kitten and a baby - on the level of basic empathy. A cat whining/screaming in pain has a similar effect to a child, and I'm sure it is not that different with pigs, horses, and the like.

On a more abstract level we differentiate between animals and human beings, of course, and also between animals we can kill without giving it much thought, and pets - which we should neither kill nor eat.

I mean any rational view of fishing reveals this to be a rather twisted way to kill any creature. One might not get a sadistic kick doing it, but if you put yourself in the position of the fish dangling at your hook for a moment you realize that this is both a very ugly and painful way to go.

But being around certain types of death a lot - and actually doing a lot of killing yourself - familiarizes you with the concept on an emotional level. This goes for killing animals and for killing humans, too. Arya gives us a very good example for the latter - the stableboy is a horrible experience for her, Raff is basically fun.

53 minutes ago, DMC said:

How does opening up a pregnant cat relate to butchering/putting down livestock?  And how does that constitute a tangible reason?  Wide gaps in logic here.  Further, how many examples/accounts to we actually have of Joffrey witnessing butchers or whatever putting down livestock?  I don't recall much of that.

We don't get any details on that, sure, but there are quotes from George about how cruel and open the world is in relation to sexuality and dealing with animals. Bran knows how it is done because he observed both animals and humans doing it. One assumes that this is also true for slaughtering people considering that the main/only reason why livestock is kept is to eat it in the end.

And this is a world where there are harvest feasts - in peace time the last slaughtering before winter should be a huge feast, too. The time to celebrate that one has full winter provisions, and ridding oneself of useless animals one cannot afford to bring through winter, etc.

The whole winter thing adds another dimension to the life-death issue that was omnipresent in the real middle ages.

Joff was still very young during the cat incident. Curiosity isn't necessary a bad reason, just as drowning cats because there are too many already, etc. isn't a good reason, either. Yet that was (and presumably still is) a good enough reason to get rid of unwanted cats at a farm or in a town.

53 minutes ago, DMC said:

Fair enough.  My answer would be an emphatic yes - it demonstrates significantly less empathy (or, even, none).

ETA:  Assuming you meant "the average guy butchering animals" here and it was just a typo.  If you actually meant butchering people, well, I reserve the right to revise my answer

Yeah, that was my intent there.

53 minutes ago, DMC said:

Ah, gotcha - you should be more clear about that!  Anyway, neither here nor there, but I didn't get the sense Myrcella was "nearly retarded" in AGOT.  Jon's opinion is obviously influenced by the fact he's bitter and sulking at the time.  Arya also calls her a baby, but that's her own biases/context.

Yes, that's a way to reconcile the two accounts, and I've done that myself because I'm a little bit pissed about that inconsistency, but it also opens the door for various people showing completely different characteristics depending who describes them. And we don't get that a lot. Everybody describes Stannis the same way, for instance.

However, Tommen also is shown quite different from his actual character in the Arya chapter when she encounters him, Myrcella, and their septa before she flees down into the dungeons:

Quote

"What's he doing to that cat?"

Startled, Arya dropped the cat and whirled toward the voice. The tom bounded off in the blink of an eye. At the end of the alley stood a girl with a mass of golden curls, dressed as pretty as a doll in blue satin. Beside her was a plump little blond boy with a prancing stag sewn in pearls across the front of his doublet and a miniature sword at his belt. Princess Myrcella and Prince Tommen, Arya thought. A septa as large as a draft horse hovered over them, and behind her two big men in crimson cloaks, Lannister house guards.

"What were you doing to that cat, boy?" Myrcella asked again, sternly. To her brother she said, "He's a ragged boy, isn't he? Look at him." She giggled.

"A ragged dirty smelly boy," Tommen agreed.

I had always trouble reconciling that quote from Tommen with the boy's later characterization.

It implies that George's view of Joff's little siblings only developed overtime.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Psychopath.  He is not that bright.  Littlefinger would be a Sociopath I think, He has a brain that functions on a High Level.

[DMC]

23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But being around certain types of death a lot - and actually doing a lot of killing yourself - familiarizes you with the concept on an emotional level. This goes for killing animals and for killing humans, too. Arya gives us a very good example for the latter - the stableboy is a horrible experience for her, Raff is basically fun.

This segment is veering wayyy off topic, so I'll just say that while I agree with your concern about how we kill animals, I fundamentally disagree with your contention this can be in any way linked to the tendency or propensity, or however you want to say it, of an individual to do similar acts to humans.

29 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Joff was still very young during the cat incident. Curiosity isn't necessary a bad reason, just as drowning cats because there are too many already, etc. isn't a good reason, either. Yet that was (and presumably still is) a good enough reason to get rid of unwanted cats at a farm or in a town.

I reject the premise that Joff's curiosity constitutes a tangible reason.  Drowning the cats is obviously an inhumane way to euthanize (as if I need to clarify that), but this example - which is your making - is based on the need to control the cat population.  So, there is a reason.  A reason, that, ultimately even the ASPCA and the Humane Society execute to this day (and much quicker than you'd expect in my experience), albeit of course in a much more humane way.  Curiosity in killing cats is not a valid reason, and it pained me not to make a pun out of that.

Also, yes, Joffrey was presumably very young.  Which reinforces the query of how much he actually was exposed to routine butchering of livestock at the time?

37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, that's a way to reconcile the two accounts, and I've done that myself because I'm a little bit pissed about that inconsistency, but it also opens the door for various people showing completely different characteristics depending who describes them.

Well, let's look at the quote (Jon I):

Quote

After them came the children. Little Rickon first, managing the long walk with all the dignity a three-year-old could muster. Jon had to urge him on when he stopped to visit. Close behind came Robb, in grey wool trimmed with white, the Stark colors. He had the Princess Myrcella on his arm. She was a wisp of a girl, not quite eight, her hair a cascade of golden curls under a jeweled net. Jon noticed the shy looks she gave Robb as they passed between the tables and the timid way she smiled at him. He decided she was insipid. Robb didn't even have the sense to realize how stupid she was; he was grinning like a fool.

He was already drunk at this time, had never met her, and "decided" she was insipid and stupid because he was wallowing in his bastardy.  I think it's fair to expect the reader to understand this doesn't open the door to other character's reasonable descriptions.  Arya, also, calls Myrcella a baby simply because she doesn't want the direwolves in the wheelhouse - Arya has no interaction with the girl.

47 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I had always trouble reconciling that quote from Tommen with the boy's later characterization.

Interesting.

[Skahaz mo Kandaq]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is somewhat unclear what's the difference between a sociopath and psychopath in the psychology community.

There are genetic traits to this thing, but it is a spectrum. One assumes that Joff did inherit some of the narcissistic traits that are evident in Jaime, Cersei, and Tywin.

However, Joff suffered little trauma as far as we know, nor does he show many of those traits adolescent psychopaths do - like not recognizing boundaries, breaking/not understanding rules and social norms, not understanding other people's emotions, etc.

Instead, he is actually pretty good at projecting emotions and manipulating Sansa. While adult psychopaths can do that, they have to learn it because they actually do not feel emotions the same way as others, nor are they able to recognize them in others at first.

By comparison, Littlefinger is a highly functioning psychopath considering that he is both very good at reading people and able to control himself and his desires. Most psychopaths get themselves into trouble because they fail to follow the rules, causing them to have trouble in school, work, not to mention the law.

In that sense I'd say Joff is actually just/mainly a spoiled brat whose absent royal father and doting royal mother never set any boundaries. Surrounded by lickspittles and sycophants nobody ever taught him to behave as a normal human being - because he was not.

He certainly has some cruel streaks, but that's to be expected in a world run by knights. And this has nothing to do with psychopathy.

Agree with the last two paragraphs.  

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, DMC said:

This segment is veering wayyy off topic, so I'll just say that while I agree with your concern about how we kill animals, I fundamentally disagree with your contention this can be in any way linked to the tendency or propensity, or however you want to say it, of an individual to do similar acts to humans.

Well, you would have to want to do it, of course, or develop a taste for it. I mean, there is a reason why we get better at things we practice at. And if you can use video games to prepare for killing real people, then you could also practice at animals. I don't think this really makes you a potential killer in some ridiculous brainwash scenario, but your overall empathy with suffering or dying creatures should be lower if you are surrounded often by dying creatures - and kill many of them yourself.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

I reject the premise that Joff's curiosity constitutes a tangible reason.  Drowning the cats is obviously an inhumane way to euthanize (as if I need to clarify that), but this example - which is your making - is based on the need to control the cat population.  So, there is a reason.  A reason, that, ultimately even the ASPCA and the Humane Society execute to this day (and much quicker than you'd expect in my experience), albeit of course in a much more humane way.  Curiosity in killing cats is not a valid reason, and it pained me not to make a pun out of that.

But the point surely is that children don't necessarily can differentiate yet between tangible reasons and such we don't see as tangible. If Joff were doing that in age in which he has understood you should and cannot kill cats for the reasons he had, then you would have a very good point, but we don't know exactly what he was thinking there.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Also, yes, Joffrey was presumably very young.  Which reinforces the query of how much he actually was exposed to routine butchering of livestock at the time?

One could assume he needed only a couple of such instances to mimic what they were doing with the cat.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Well, let's look at the quote (Jon I):

He was already drunk at this time, had never met her, and "decided" she was insipid and stupid because he was wallowing in his bastardy.  I think it's fair to expect the reader to understand this doesn't open the door to other character's reasonable descriptions.  Arya, also, calls Myrcella a baby simply because she doesn't want the direwolves in the wheelhouse - Arya has no interaction with the girl.

Myrcella also looks kind of stupid/uncertain when Arya misbehaves at Winterfell. But, yeah, there are instances when George uses such things deliberately to create false impressions. Most notable would be Tyrion's dismissive introduction of Kevan in AGoT which is revealed to be not even remotely the true Kevan. The man doesn't ape Tywin, he is his closest confident and advisor.

[JNR]

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

When he has Ned executed he wants to show the world he is as tough a warrior-king as his father.

Yes, that's a good comparison.  Trump projects a classic strongman package of ideas: that he is a superior leader because he gets tough, or as Joffrey puts it, does not have the "soft heart" of a woman. 

And like Joffrey, he makes foolish decisions by putting short-term gain (looking "strong") over long-term gain (in Joff's case, keeping Ned a live hostage so as to negotiate with the Starks, should that become wise).  Neither of them plays chess more than one move into the future; neither seem very bright.

I also have no problem calling Joffrey grotesque or abusive or cruel because those terms exist and apply just as well to Joff's world as ours, and even to kings -- hence the clear distinction between Joff and Tommen.

22 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

However, we don't know how Joff would have been in his twenties or thirties. Perhaps he would have matured somewhat.

Perhaps, but I doubt it unless his abuses of power came with a cost.  People like this don't usually learn unless forced to do it.

You'd think Joff could already, in AGOT, extrapolate from the recent instance of Aerys to himself, in comprehending that even monarchs may eventually pay a heavy price for sustained abuse. 

But as I said before, he's just not very bright.

[DMC]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But the point surely is that children don't necessarily can differentiate yet between tangible reasons and such we don't see as tangible. If Joff were doing that in age in which he has understood you should and cannot kill cats for the reasons he had, then you would have a very good point, but we don't know exactly what he was thinking there.

As I've said from the start, I don't care how old he was (beyond infancy).  Any child should know that is wrong, and quite wrong at that.  We just disagree here.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

One could assume he needed only a couple of such instances to mimic what they were doing with the cat.

Sure but your point was based on exposure, which assumes there were more than a couple instances.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Myrcella also looks kind of stupid/uncertain when Arya misbehaves at Winterfell.

Meh, she's just confused in that scene, and I don't blame her.  I probably would've been confused as well.

[Varysblackfyre321]

On 10/22/2018 at 5:27 AM, Lord Varys said:

 

By comparison, Littlefinger is a highly functioning psychopath considering that he is both very good at reading people and able to control himself and his desires. Most psychopaths get themselves into trouble because they fail to follow the rules, causing them to have trouble in school, work, not to mention the law.

I always got a feeling the man was a sociopath? 

Would you qualify Roose as a Pschopath or sociopath?

[Lord Varys]

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Perhaps, but I doubt it unless his abuses of power came with a cost.  People like this don't usually learn unless forced to do it.

Sure, I honestly expect Joff would have ranked among the worst kings in history had he ever ruled in his own right. But we don't know that for a fact. The difference between him and Trump is that Trump is a grown-up and Joff was not. Trump can't really change, Joff technically could have.

9 hours ago, JNR said:

You'd think Joff could already, in AGOT, extrapolate from the recent instance of Aerys to himself, in comprehending that even monarchs may eventually pay a heavy price for sustained abuse. 

But as I said before, he's just not very bright.

That is a considerable point there, but Joff's role model is his daddy, and that man took his war hammer to every problem he faced. One sees that also with Renly who also didn't care about the succession or laws - Joff just takes it to another level in some areas.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

As I've said from the start, I don't care how old he was (beyond infancy).  Any child should know that is wrong, and quite wrong at that.  We just disagree here.

I'd agree that one should expect normal empathy should stop one doing that, but considering we hear stories in this world of princes getting their first sword at the age of three (Maegor the Cruel) and putting that to a cat, too, I doubt we can necessarily assume such children necessarily understand what they are doing. And children can be pretty cruel to pets while they don't yet understand what they like or dislike. My niece very much terrorized our old cat when she was very young.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Sure but your point was based on exposure, which assumes there were more than a couple instances.

It could be both or neither. My point just is that the harshness and everyday cruelty of the world these people are living in must have some measurable effect. Butchering animals is just one thing, public executions/punishments/torture would be another, then there are public displays of 'chivalry' (which includes the occasional mortal accident/killing.

This should be taken into account when talking about Joffrey. Whether it would have had a strong effect on him or not is difficult to say. The point is just that the cat thing isn't sufficient to brand Joff was irrevocably pathological.

9 hours ago, DMC said:

Meh, she's just confused in that scene, and I don't blame her.  I probably would've been confused as well.

All true. And as I said, it might be that the whole thing there is intentional and Jon and Arya were supposed to misjudge her, like other characters misjudged other characters. However, the Tommen thing I cited above gives me pause.

57 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I always got a feeling the man was a sociopath? 

Would you qualify Roose as a Pschopath or sociopath?

I'd say both Roose and Littlefinger figure into the 'highly-functioning' spectrum of whatever disorder they have - I'd say they are psychopaths based on the definition I gave above.

They are not driven or controlled by their needs and desires and are thus actually not getting into trouble by breaking the laws rules of the society they live in. Yes, Westeros is a crappy place if we talk about justice and law enforcement, but Roose and Littlefinger do not run amok despite the fact that they could do that. They hold positions of considerable power and could use that to do more than they actually do. When they break the rules (i.e. murder someone) they do it in a manner that ensures that they are not found.

Real pathological criminals in the psychopathy department usually cannot control themselves. They do what they want, take what they want, etc. when they want it. They can be (reasonably) smart, but they usually are not able to control their impulses. Roose and Littlefinger can.

And that's why they are infinitely more dangerous than Ramsay or Gregor because you don't see it coming when they do what they do, not to mention that they can bide their time and wait, whereas a man like Ramsay is as transparent in his feelings and desires as you possibly can be. Ramsay could only fool a moron like Theon and people who do not know him yet. Roose and Littlefinger can play pretty much anyone.

Lysa and the Red Wedding seem to be textbook cases of psychopathic murders done by highly-functioning ones. The deeds are done because the people doing/arranging them coldly calculate why and how these things would be beneficial to them. Robb is done but is never going to admit. And House Bolton could greatly profit from working with Tywin. So Robb has to go - and many people, too, to ensure that Robb's cause dies with him. Lysa has to go because her instability threatened Sansa's life - and could threaten it again.

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Joffrey and Arya have a lot in common.   Taking lives do not bother them anymore.  This is not going to to go over well with Arya fans but I think Joffrey is easier to cure than Arya.  Joffrey gets off on tormenting and torture but with the right environment and therapy he can be redirected to find pleasure in kindness.  Arya doesn't feel and therefore, probably not fixable.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd agree that one should expect normal empathy should stop one doing that, but considering we hear stories in this world of princes getting their first sword at the age of three (Maegor the Cruel) and putting that to a cat, too, I doubt we can necessarily assume such children necessarily understand what they are doing. And children can be pretty cruel to pets while they don't yet understand what they like or dislike. My niece very much terrorized our old cat when she was very young.

This is a lot of thin logic to justify your position - Maegor "took a sword" to a cat at three.  All this indicates is Martin likes to imagine cat killing as a basis for later atrocities.  We can "necessarily" assume such children understand basic social mores or norms.  Otherwise, considering the age of many characters, we're reading nonsense.  The mental gymnastics you're making to excuse Joffrey would be amusing if it wasn't also a bit concerning.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

My point just is that the harshness and everyday cruelty of the world these people are living in must have some measurable effect. Butchering animals is just one thing, public executions/punishments/torture would be another, then there are public displays of 'chivalry' (which includes the occasional mortal accident/killing.

Yeah, here I agree.  I think it's safe to assume Joff saw Robert's justice (although probably not Robert himself) being executed many of times.  So he was familiar with all that entails.  However, for the fourth (?) time, I don't have any reason to assume Joffrey was familiar with butchering animals, or drowning cats, or anything of that nature.  I'd think that kid would think such things are below him.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The point is just that the cat thing isn't sufficient to brand Joff was irrevocably pathological.

To clarify, I agree.  And as I've said, I don't think he is irrevocably anything.  I just think the cat business is an important aspect in the text we should heed.  You're the one who pressed this point.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And as I said, it might be that the whole thing there is intentional and Jon and Arya were supposed to misjudge her, like other characters misjudged other characters. However, the Tommen thing I cited above gives me pause.

I think the Tommen thing is a good point, but you're never gonna get a definitive answer about it unless Martin just tells you.

[Lady Barbrey]

On 10/22/2018 at 7:02 AM, DMC said:

Indeed, the DSM-5 does not have either - both fall under antisocial personality disorder.  Further, a child cannot be diagnosed with ASPD until 18, but rather would be diagnosed with conduct disorder, its precursor.  From that link, the warning signs include:

I think it's hard to look at that list and not conclude Joffrey would be diagnosed with conduct disorder (although no property damage!).  The business with the cat/kittens is particularly suggestive.  The main thing most laypeople know about "indicators" for sociopathy and/or psychopathy at a young age is cruelty/violence towards animals - it's in all the shows and films - and Martin was sure to put that in there.

If we were to ignore the age requirement, it's interesting how quickly you can see disagreements on the distinction between sociopaths and psychopaths.  A simple good search yields one link stating "psychopathy can be thought of as a more severe form of sociopathy with more symptoms," while another describes psychopathy as a genetic predisposition while sociopaths are a product of their environment.  From the latter link: 

The bolded all seem to describe Joff (well, the last one if you believe he sent Bran's catspaw).  If you take the alternative perspective - that psychopaths are merely severe sociopaths - then I think it's safe to say Joff is "only" a sociopath, but the future would be full of possibilities.

I agree with most of this, and everything you say in your other posts.  I had to do a lot of research into this once, and most experts today use the psychopath=nature and sociopath=nurture description, though they use the blanket conduct disorder for children or antisocial personality disorder for adults.  There is very little to tell psychopaths and sociopaths apart.  Psychopaths learn very early to 'mask' and imitate.  Sociopaths come later to the condition, so you often can tell there's something up (they might take a beat or two to come up with the right expression, for example), and you're more likely to find them in the prison community as well. 

Neither one cannot experience fear, anger, malice.

Joffrey, though, is a psychopath..  He has been no more abused than his brother and sister, emotionally or physically.  He enjoys 'games'with Sansa and beating her when he can. He kills pregnant cats from cruelty.  He steals his father's knife, to commit a murder - not to put Bran out of misery from empathy but ostensibly becausehe took his father's words too literally, as no one else with any empathy would have.  We see him lie aggressively re the story with Arya, and he also seems to have ordered Micah's death.  He takes great glee in taking Ned's head as if he's putting one over on Sansa and everyone - yay, Joffrey wins!  Even Cersei can see there's something off about him.  Cersei!

I wasn't going to engage again on this question but I'm a little astounded by how many people think he's just a spoiled brat!  Maybe in the same sense that Caligula was once a spoiled brat.

[DMC]

21 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I had to do a lot of research into this once, and most experts today use the psychopath=nature and sociopath=nurture description

That's pretty valuable, at least in this thread.  All I did was a google search.  I'm interested in what you found?

25 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Joffrey, though, is a psychopath..  He has been no more abused than his brother and sister, emotionally or physically.  He enjoys 'games'with Sansa and beating her when he can. He kills pregnant cats from cruelty.  He steals his father's knife, to commit a murder - not to put Bran out of misery from empathy but ostensibly becausehe took his father's words too literally, as no one else with any empathy would have.  We see him lie aggressively re the story with Arya, and he also seems to have ordered Micah's death.  He takes great glee in taking Ned's head as if he's putting one over on Sansa and everyone - yay, Joffrey wins!  Even Cersei can see there's something off about him.  Cersei!

Well, one could safely assume he's abused his brother and sister, which puts its mark on them as well.  Anyway, I agree with all of this, including its obvious conclusion.  My position is such action could be...corrected.  I don't know a better way to say it, even if it sounds like that creepy guy in The Shining.

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, DMC said:

That's pretty valuable, at least in this thread.  All I did was a google search.  I'm interested in what you found?

Well, one could safely assume he's abused his brother and sister, which puts its mark on them as well.  Anyway, I agree with all of this, including its obvious conclusion.  My position is such action could be...corrected.  I don't know a better way to say it, even if it sounds like that creepy guy in The Shining.

That was a long time ago, now, and direct research, not online.  You can gain fascinating insights straight from the horse's mouth on Quora.  The psychopaths and sociopaths there answer questions like anyone else.  Beware the fakers, but usually the other psycho/sociopaths will call them out so you don't have to.  And yes, what I've described as the difference is what they understand too and label themselves accordingly. Lots are doing well in life and I have a good convo going with a sociopathic novelist!  Something interesting I found is that they can feel joy, it just lasts such a fleeting moment compared to us and is usually for reasons of victory.  But with stunted empathy and emotions, they get bored very, very easily and that seems at the root of excessive game-playing and manipulative behaviours for the smart ones.  They want that joy of winning though it last 20 seconds only.

Psychopathy cannot be corrected, but not all psychopaths or sociopaths are sadistic and nor are they all predators. Still, I prefer an online relationship with my whip smart sociopath "friend" but we won't ever be meeting in person.

Sociopaths, since their behaviour is learned, they're not born with small amygdalas, for instance, have a real, but small chance of correcting some of their behaviours.  As said, often it is found they've suffered head trauma, too, and this mimics natural psychopathy. 

Chances are though you've met many.  They flourish in high stakes business.  Likely a few on this forum too.  But if you start getting instinctual vibes about someone, or something seems off, run!  My own experience was with a roommate - as students sharing a five bedroom house.  Eric was handsome, charming, talked a storm but I didn't like him.  Too glib.  Overruled by roommates.  During the next six months, camera equipment was stolen, people kept finding they were out of gas (he made copies of everyone's car keys, then borrowed their cars when they were out), he shit in one girl's bed cause he didn't like the frequency she cleaned the kitty litter, he had a crush on the single mother next door and she refused him, so He'd climb in her top window and rearrange her furniture just to freak her out when she got home (sounds funny but she was petrified for her kids sake).  None of us knew it was him. Five years later I worked at a mental health clinic, and there he was diagnosed with ASPD, or in his case sociopathy, and a lot of that detail was in his report.

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, DMC said:

This is a lot of thin logic to justify your position - Maegor "took a sword" to a cat at three.  All this indicates is Martin likes to imagine cat killing as a basis for later atrocities.  We can "necessarily" assume such children understand basic social mores or norms.  Otherwise, considering the age of many characters, we're reading nonsense.  The mental gymnastics you're making to excuse Joffrey would be amusing if it wasn't also a bit concerning.

Oh, I think I've taken that too far somehow. I agree with you that thing as such is disturbing and a hint that something is not all that well with Joffrey. It is just that I think we shouldn't put as much emphasis on that when compared to our own societies.

14 hours ago, DMC said:

Yeah, here I agree.  I think it's safe to assume Joff saw Robert's justice (although probably not Robert himself) being executed many of times.  So he was familiar with all that entails.  However, for the fourth (?) time, I don't have any reason to assume Joffrey was familiar with butchering animals, or drowning cats, or anything of that nature.  I'd think that kid would think such things are below him.

That is why I cited Bran's exposure to animal and human sex. Children do see a lot in a Westerosi castle, apparently, and much more is going on in the Red Keep and KL compared to Winterfell.

And Joff isn't the kind of child that doesn't go out to explore things.

[DMC]

On 10/24/2018 at 2:15 PM, Lord Varys said:

Oh, I think I've taken that too far somehow. I agree with you that thing as such is disturbing and a hint that something is not all that well with Joffrey. It is just that I think we shouldn't put as much emphasis on that when compared to our own societies.

That is why I cited Bran's exposure to animal and human sex. Children do see a lot in a Westerosi castle, apparently, and much more is going on in the Red Keep and KL compared to Winterfell.

And Joff isn't the kind of child that doesn't go out to explore things.

Pretty sure this is the closest I've ever gotten to you saying we basically agree, which is quite the auspicious occasion.  I'd like to thank Joffrey, Mycah, my mom, the perfumed seneschal, and Olenna Tyrell.