A Howland Reed POV?

[dmfn]

Howland Reed, Lord of Greywater Watch. The "little cranogman" from many of Ned's dreams and memories is one of the few characters left alive, mayhaps the only character in the world who knows the truth of some of our most sought after questions has yet to appear in the novels (to our knowledge).

Assuming that he truly has not appeared so far, I thought it would be fun to ponder what the ramifications of a Howland POV would be. It's unlikely, in my opinion, that Reed would show up as a mainstay POV this late in the game, but what about a prologue or epilogue chapter? 

Of course that would mean we get to meet this mysterious man right before he dies, but his thoughts would be very interesting and illuminating for us readers. If I'm not mistaken, there are a few men from Robb's last council who may have Robb's will at Greywater Watch hiding out. So one possibility could be Howland reveals pertinent information regarding Jon at this time. 

Another possibility would be that just we readers are let in on the secret, whatever it turns out to be, but Howland dies before he can pass on the information, leaving us with a tasty bit of dramatic irony. 

Knowing what happened at the tourney the year of the false spring and the tower of joy are some of the biggest mysteries in the story, and there are ways to let us in on some of that without it bringing about a full resolution to the rest of the story. 

In fact, it would be a little hokey if Jon is resurrected like a Christ figure, fights a new war for the dawn, gets popular acclaim from the people, and then someone shows up and says, "coincidentally he's the rightful king anyway. Congratulations, Westeros!" 

Even if Jon is brought back to life, there are still many unknowns. I'm not sure how far (distance wise) one can see through a weirwood. I feel like most of our weirwood visions so far have been in relatively close proximity to a tree. Will there be a tree close enough to the tower of joy to reveal that part of the story?  Who knows? 

So far, our prologue /epilogue chapters have provided us with some great foreshadowing and insights, from the very first to the very last. It's where we learned about the Others and skinchangers' secrets; faceless man infiltration of the Citadel; the existence of Lady Stoneheart, etc. 

It's not outside of the realm of possibility that we could (somehow, someway) finally find out these other secrets straight from the source.

But, of course, I'd like to know what you guys think... How would Howland Reed's POV impact the story? 

[Mat92]

I don't think it would really impact the story at all. 

Assuming R+L=J is correct, Howland knowing about Jon means nothing. Even if some northern/Riverlands lords trust/believe Howland's word, outing Jon as half Targaryen might even hurt his cause even if he is a legitimate half Stark. If Jon returns, him proving his worth as a commander and a leader is worth far more than his namesake this late in the game. Even if the North raises Jon up, nobody else is going to trust him based on this information. He still needs to prove himself in battle.

Howland holds knowledge of the past which will likely give readers insight into Ned back then and whatever transpired. I'm sure he's a very smart man and yes possibly might be harbouring some people from Robbs council. I don't buy the theory that Robb's will is there and states Jon as his heir - it's too convenient and with so much left to happen in the story it would feel disingenuous for it all to come together at the last minute.

Obviously I can't say all of this for sure: I'd love for their to be a cool little twist/reveal as long as it's foreshadowed/feels earned. 

I am very interested in Howland as a character though, and a POV might be really cool, but I don't think it's likely he can seriously impact the story going forward.

[dmfn]

27 minutes ago, Mat92 said:

I don't think it would really impact the story at all. 

Assuming R+L=J is correct, Howland knowing about Jon means nothing. Even if some northern/Riverlands lords trust/believe Howland's word, outing Jon as half Targaryen might even hurt his cause even if he is a legitimate half Stark. If Jon returns, him proving his worth as a commander and a leader is worth far more than his namesake this late in the game. Even if the North raises Jon up, nobody else is going to trust him based on this information. He still needs to prove himself in battle.

Howland holds knowledge of the past which will likely give readers insight into Ned back then and whatever transpired. I'm sure he's a very smart man and yes possibly might be harbouring some people from Robbs council. I don't buy the theory that Robb's will is there and states Jon as his heir - it's too convenient and with so much left to happen in the story it would feel disingenuous for it all to come together at the last minute.

Obviously I can't say all of this for sure: I'd love for their to be a cool little twist/reveal as long as it's foreshadowed/feels earned. 

I am very interested in Howland as a character though, and a POV might be really cool, but I don't think it's likely he can seriously impact the story going forward.

The history of these characters defines their motivation for what this story is. 

And, unless I'm mistaken, GRRM has said Howland will appear. I'm guessing that will impact the story. 

[redriver]

8 minutes ago, dmfn said:

The history of these characters defines their motivation for what this story is. 

And, unless I'm mistaken, GRRM has said Howland will appear. I'm guessing that will impact the story. 

I tend to the theory that Howland is already appearing as Ser Shadrich,the Mad Mouse.Lots of pointers to this.

I think I'd prefer him insinuating himself into the plot this way-despite it being yet another false identity-than him bursting into the room all of a sudden "waving an affydavey",as Black Crow would say.

No new pov chapters so it would have to be prologue/epilogue.

[Dorian Martell's son]

3 hours ago, dmfn said:

How would Howland Reed's POV impact the story? 

The Author said no new POVs in winds so in no way at all? 

 

[dmfn]

8 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The Author said no new POVs in winds so in no way at all? 

 

Please see OP 

[Dorian Martell's son]

18 minutes ago, dmfn said:

Please see OP 

I did, and since the author has sad no new POVs in the next book , that would mean no impact in any way whatsoever was possible. 

[dmfn]

5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I did, and since the author has sad no new POVs in the next book , that would mean no impact in any way whatsoever was possible. 

So the author will now break the pattern of introducing new characters in the prologue and epilogue? 

Even if that were the case, I don't see any harm in discussing a hypothetical situation in a "fantasy" forum with about a thousand "what if...?" titled threads. 

But thanks for replying twice. 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

I would like to know ,what did Howland Reed find out from the Green Men on the Island of the Faces ?

[dmfn]

7 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

I would like to know ,what did Howland Reed find out from the Green Men on the Island of the Faces ?

Yes. Good thinking. I kinda forgot he was on a quest when he came to Harrenhall. 

We know he knows enough to heed green dreams for sure. No telling what else he discovered. 

[dmfn]

1 hour ago, redriver said:

I tend to the theory that Howland is already appearing as Ser Shadrich,the Mad Mouse.Lots of pointers to this.

I think I'd prefer him insinuating himself into the plot this way-despite it being yet another false identity-than him bursting into the room all of a sudden "waving an affydavey",as Black Crow would say.

No new pov chapters so it would have to be prologue/epilogue.

I've never heard the Mad Mouse connection. I'll look into that. 

[wia]

I don't care about ToJ, and I don't think that Howland is that good of a source in regards to the Harrenhal tourney, I think Meera already told most of what he knows about it. But like BRANDON GREYSTARK, I also want to know what did he find out from the Green Men on the Island of the Faces.

I doubt that he'll ever get a POV thought.

[Lady Barbrey]

1 hour ago, wia said:

I don't care about ToJ, and I don't think that Howland is that good of a source in regards to the Harrenhal tourney, I think Meera already told most of what he knows about it. But like BRANDON GREYSTARK, I also want to know what did he find out from the Green Men on the Island of the Faces.

I doubt that he'll ever get a POV thought.

I agree with all though I'd also like to ask him about the Reed oath. There is also one thing about the ToJ that really nags at me and will likely continue to do long after the series ends (knock on wood we get there). Why did Ned send back Lord Dustin's stallion but not his bones to Barrowton?  I mean, Dustin is from a line of the First Kings whose claim to fame is barrows.  Tombs.  The dead.  Returning his bones to RIP with his ancestors, the Corpse-Kings, just seems like the right thing to do, ya know? In fact, it seems like blasphemy he didn't do it.

So Howland, let me RIP and tell me what was up with Lord Dustin's bones.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Howland will appear, but not as a POV. There is no need for him to be a POV. And he will have a massive impact. George himself said he cannot appear yet because he knows too much about the central mystery of the story.

[wia]

26 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I agree with all though I'd also like to ask him about the Reed oath. There is also one thing about the ToJ that really nags at me and will likely continue to do long after the series ends (knock on wood we get there). Why did Ned send back Lord Dustin's stallion but not his bones to Barrowton?  I mean, Dustin is from a line of the First Kings whose claim to fame is barrows.  Tombs.  The dead.  Returning his bones to RIP with his ancestors, the Corpse-Kings, just seems like the right thing to do, ya know? In fact, it seems like blasphemy he didn't do it.

So Howland, let me RIP and tell me what was up with Lord Dustin's bones.

Oh, yes, the oath. I'd like to know that too.

*wears the tinfoil hat* That burial at the TOJ and pulling down the tower is so frustrating. And I so do not believe that Lady Dustin's speech. I can only think that they didn't die there. 
Perhaps Howland could share the tower-pulling tips for beginners that Ned used, since he was present while he's at it.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Its been hinted that Jeyne Westerling will appear in the prologue for TWoW, and I imagine the epilogue will have something to do with the Others. To be honest I don't think Howland is particularly important, besides knowing about R+L=J, which in itself doesn't really seem that important in the grand scale of things. I suppose he could have some interesting information on some magical elements of the book. 

[dmfn]

2 minutes ago, EloImFizzy said:

Its been hinted that Jeyne Westerling will appear in the prologue for TWoW, and I imagine the epilogue will have something to do with the Others. To be honest I don't think Howland is particularly important, besides knowing about R+L=J, which in itself doesn't really seem that important in the grand scale of things. I suppose he could have some interesting information on some magical elements of the book. 

He knows what transpired at the tower of joy, yet he sent his children off to a frozen demon lair to die helping Bran in all likelihood. I'd say that deserves a "why?" 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 hour ago, dmfn said:

He knows what transpired at the tower of joy, yet he sent his children off to a frozen demon lair to die helping Bran in all likelihood. I'd say that deserves a "why?" 

I'm guessing its because he knows how important Bran's duty is. If the Others don't get stopped then his children would die anyway. 

[Megorova]

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Howland will appear, but not as a POV. There is no need for him to be a POV. And he will have a massive impact. George himself said he cannot appear yet because he knows too much about the central mystery of the story.

He knows, that Dawn is hidden in crypts of Winterfell, and that Jon, as son of Rhaegar Targaryen, is 1/8 Dayne, thus he will be able to wield that sword. Dawn is Lightbringer, and thus Jon is Azor Ahai. Howland, revealing where the sword is, will start a chain of events, that will unravel multiple secrets.

[dmfn]

2 hours ago, EloImFizzy said:

I'm guessing its because he knows how important Bran's duty is. If the Others don't get stopped then his children would die anyway. 

Do you think Howland knows or Jojen knows Bran is special? 

I guess my question was "why/how?" 

Did they know about, Bran the Others, what was happening, what wars were important and all that?