Rippounet Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 16 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: Thank you for making my first point for me. Jesus instructed his disciples to go out and make believers of the world, not sit at home and invite the non-believers to come to you. Well, maybe, but what if the people coming are believers themselves? Anyway, as someone who is not an expert in Bible studies, something strikes me here: Quote “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” The lost sheep of the house of Israel? So... The descendants of Jacob and his 12 sons, right? Because this would mean: 8 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: As for the Good Samaritan, well, it it the Church of Christ, not the Church of the Good Samaritan. Based on the book (or at least, the extracts posted above), it would seem to me that it was meant to be a Church for ethnic Jews first and foremost. From this I would conclude that it's kinda funny to see some Christians denying other Christians their help because of their country of origin. Seems to me that this is contradicting the book's message one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Barry Whitebeard Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, Rippounet said: Well, maybe, but what if the people coming are believers themselves? Anyway, as someone who is not an expert in Bible studies, something strikes me here: The lost sheep of the house of Israel? So... The descendants of Jacob and his 12 sons, right? Because this would mean: Based on the book (or at least, the extracts posted above), it would seem to me that it was meant to be a Church for ethnic Jews first and foremost. From this I would conclude that it's kinda funny to see some Christians denying other Christians their help because of their country of origin. Seems to me that this is contradicting the book's message one way or the other. So are you conceding that Christians should be against letting in non-believers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 14 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: The very first paragraphs of the article I posted say clearly that President Trump's networth has declined over 1 billion dollars since entering public life. Two shifted goalposts there. Over 1 billion =/= 'billions'. 'Since entering public life' was also not the original claim. And again, I doubt that this was the source for FNR's claim. Do you really think it was? 14 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: If all you are doing is making a dig at him for not releasing his tax returns, they are irrelevant because his wealth is tied up in real estate l. And he's very transparent about his real estate holdings, is he? 14 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: As for the Good Samaritan, well, it it the Church of Christ, not the Church of the Good Samaritan. What does this even mean? You get that the Good Samaritan was a parable told by Christ, right? That he was, in fact, a character Christ made up to illustrate Christ's Christian teachings of Christ? What are you on about here? I don't think you even know. 14 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: You are falling into the error that Pope Leo XIII warned against over a hundred years ago of distilling Christianity down to a socialist economic message and remove spirituality from the equation. I'm right. You don't. 14 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: Besides that, God abhors a multicultural society. He struck down the Tower of Babel and divided the people of the world by language and nation because He knows that multiculturalism breeds moral relativity, and moral relativity kills faith. The last resort of the cornered right-winger finding his beliefs don't fit Christian teachings - cite the Old Testament! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Barry Whitebeard Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 minute ago, mormont said: Two shifted goalposts there. Over 1 billion =/= 'billions'. 'Since entering public life' was also not the original claim. And again, I doubt that this was the source for FNR's claim. Do you really think it was? And he's very transparent about his real estate holdings, is he? What does this even mean? You get that the Good Samaritan was a parable told by Christ, right? That he was, in fact, a character Christ made up to illustrate Christ's Christian teachings of Christ? What are you on about here? I don't think you even know. I'm right. You don't. The last resort of the cornered right-winger finding his beliefs don't fit Christian teachings - cite the Old Testament! It is hyperbole, but it should go without saying that you don't know what it is. Christ said many things. He said he would pit brother against brother. He overturned the tables of the money lenders. He said if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. You are reducing his entire ministry to the parable of the good samaritan, which is an error. As for "last resorts", you are the one who is unable to form any coherent replies and can only impotently sputter that you don't think I know what I am talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: You are reducing his entire ministry to the parable of the good samaritan, which is an error. Not at all. I'm pointing out that your ideas about who should receive Christian charity, and how, are not compatible with it. That is actually relevant to the discussion at hand: the bits you're citing in your last post are not. I think my posts are quite coherent, but thanks anyway for the linguistic input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bold Barry Whitebeard Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Just now, mormont said: Not at all. I'm pointing out that your ideas about who should receive Christian charity, and how, are not compatible with it. That is actually relevant to the discussion at hand: the bits you're citing in your last post are not. I think my posts are quite coherent, but thanks anyway for the linguistic input. Anytime. Back to the Good Samaritan, he helped a single traveler on the side of the road, and put him up in an inn. It was one person making a personal act of Kindness. If a Christian sees someone injured on the side of the road, then yes pull over and help. But it is a leap to go from there to saying that thousands, or indeed millions need to be let into the country so that other people (or the government) can take care of them. Your way removes all personal spirituality from the equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polishgenius Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 There's no real way to make the Babel myth paint a nice picture of God, but even so you have to do some real torture to it to suggest that what it's saying is God hates multicultural societies, let alone your reasoning behind why he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 The Good Samaritan parable is actually not the main Bible passage that Christians who are in favor of welcoming refugees and immigrants use in support of their beliefs. Below are some links, from both Protestant and Roman Catholic perspectives, about the Christian obligation to welcome the stranger: https://relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/how-the-bible-commands-us-to-welcome-the-stranger/ https://www.greatplainsumc.org/files/ministries/mj_welcoming_the_stranger_bible_study.pdf https://theconversation.com/what-the-bible-says-about-welcoming-refugees-72050 http://www.ucc.org/justice_immigration_worship_biblical-references-to https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/its-about-welcoming-stranger\ https://sojo.net/22-bible-verses-welcoming-immigrants There are many verses that support welcoming refugees and treating them fairly that come from the Old Testament -- this argument does not just rest on New Testament teachings. As just one example from the links above: Deuteronomy 10:19 The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. Since others have pointed out they are personally atheists, I should point out that I am a believing Christian and a Presbyterian elder who has been and continues to be active in the church on both a local and national level, though that really doesn't matter in terms of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, mormont said: Um, that article is largely the same as the one I linked above. I strongly doubt, therefore, that it's the evidence FNR is relying on. There is a little parable Jesus told that directly contradicts much of this: the Good Samaritan. Remember it? The point of that parable is that when Jesus talked about 'your neighbour', he did not mean 'people just like you'. Then there's the bit about 'whatever you do for the least of these, you do for me'. Now, being an atheist who was raised in the church, I appreciate that much of the scripture has been edited and altered to reflect the messages believers of the time preferred. Still, it is the case that the modern church in most countries abhors the idea that Christians should care only about their own, or close their doors to the poor and needy. American right-wingers are different, I know: they don't balk at inventing their own facts, so inventing their own scripture is not an obstacle. They invent their own scripture because they've never actually read the Bible. They really have no idea what's in it except for excerpts they've heard at church, taken out of context to fit their preferred narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: The very first paragraphs of the article I posted say clearly that President Trump's networth has declined over 1 billion dollars since entering public life. If all you are doing is making a dig at him for not releasing his tax returns, they are irrelevant because his wealth is tied up in real estate l. As for the Good Samaritan, well, it it the Church of Christ, not the Church of the Good Samaritan. You are falling into the error that Pope Leo XIII warned against over a hundred years ago of distilling Christianity down to a socialist economic message and remove spirituality from the equation. Besides that, God abhors a multicultural society. He struck down the Tower of Babel and divided the people of the world by language and nation because He knows that multiculturalism breeds moral relativity, and moral relativity kills faith. LOL Well...the god of the OT is a psychopathic, egomaniac schizophrenic that doesn't square with the supposedly kind, loving god of the NT. In New York mob language, "real estate"=money laundering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: So are you conceding that Christians should be against letting in non-believers? No. Christ ministered to all, believers and non-believers alike. And see Ormond's post just above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 59 minutes ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: Anytime. Back to the Good Samaritan, he helped a single traveler on the side of the road, and put him up in an inn. It was one person making a personal act of Kindness. If a Christian sees someone injured on the side of the road, then yes pull over and help. But it is a leap to go from there to saying that thousands, or indeed millions need to be let into the country so that other people (or the government) can take care of them. Your way removes all personal spirituality from the equation. That is awful. Christ said to reach out to ALL. He didn't put a number on it. If that is your definition of "personal spirituality", then you're in for a huge letdown when you get to the pearly gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: Anytime. . Your way removes all personal spirituality from the equation. Riiiiggghht.... Person: well I can either help this one person in need or help a few thousand. Jesus: help the few thousand... NO WAIT!!! scratch that. It's waaaaay too impersonal. Just help the one, forget those other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gertrude Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 This ongoing discussion is IMO exactly why religion should not be considered when creating government policy. Everyone interprets it differently and there is no monolithic power that can tell you what a true, deeply-held religious belief is. Catholics come closest, but how many Catholics use birth control? As an atheist, I don't want religion eliminated from public life or discussion, but I do want it eliminated as a rationale for law/policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 1 hour ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said: That is awful. Christ said to reach out to ALL. He didn't put a number on it. If that is your definition of "personal spirituality", then you're in for a huge letdown when you get to the pearly gates. Yeah Trump Christianity is a false religion that openly promotes evil and an absolute rejection of the fundamental tenets of the Christian faith: as the adherents like Barry and Frog have enthusiastically demonstrated in the past few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorral Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said: I would just point out that from what I can see the Presidency has not benefited Donald Trump. He is billions of dollars poorer than before he took office, his family’s businesses and personal brands have suffered as a result and I suspect a lot of his global business interests are severely impacted by his actions as president. I do believe that he is acting on personal conviction as far as his America First policies are concerned. It’s just that the Left absolutely abhors those convictions. It is difficult to see how his policies on immigration, terrorism and other conservative positions are benefiting him commercially. No. He is not. He's making moola in all kinds of way, very big moola. It's just not reported, though occasionally something gets through the firewalls of he and his family's continuing illegal, corrupt Big Gains, many of them particularly through outright bribery. None of this is reported anywhere, so apostles for the orange nazi, such as Forbes keep telling the world that his net worth has fallen. But where are they looking, hmmmmmm? And under which names, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? What shell accounts, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 3 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: So are you conceding that Christians should be against letting in non-believers? Should? I'm not a theologian so it's not up to me to say what Christians should or shouldn't do. I always understood Christ's main message to be about love, compassion, and empathy regardless of anything else. But I guess most religions -if not all- have a clause somewhere saying that only believers shall be saved and/or go to paradise, so I suppose any theocracy could find a way to favor them over non-believers. Thing is, the US (because I assume we're talking about the US and US policy here) is not a theocracy. The 1st amendment to the constitution prevents establishment of religion and the 14th institutes equal protection under the law. So I'm not sure where you're going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokisnow Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I’m still baffled that the trump Christians are arguing the catholic refugees are not believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Queen Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, lokisnow said: I’m still baffled that the trump Christians are arguing the catholic refugees are not believers. I have a lot of evangelicals in my family, including a fire and brimstone Baptist preacher cousin. They don't consider Catholics to be true Christians and many of them still call Catholics "Papists". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felice Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 4 hours ago, Bold Barry Whitebeard said: Probably this article, though to be fair it is down 1.4 billion since 2015 when he announced his candidacy, not when he took over the presidancy. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/10/02/trump-forbes-400-spot-tumbles-as-net-worth-declines.html That says the estimate of his net worth has dropped from $4.5b to $3.1b - and the number one factor is that he never actually had $4.5b in the first place. And the second factor is basically Amazon and declining real estate prices, problems which began before he announced his candidacy. The repercussions of his political activity are only in third place, and it's not that he's not trying to corruptly profit from the presidency, it's just that Mr Bankruptcy's success at that is about what you'd expect from his track record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.