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Marvel Netflix


RumHam

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2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Yet per Netflix execs, only they can cancel the shows -- Marvel has no say -- which tells me these shows are their property and are being produced exclusively for them. Also fits with Disney saying they've no intention of moving the shows to their own streaming channel.

There is also word that Marvel may have forced their hand in the case of Luke Cage, negotiating them out of a third season.

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I think they’d need a very good reason to pronounce anything non-canon, that damages the concept of canon way more than it helps. It won’t ever happen. Probably, Punisher and JJ will come out, maybe a Defenders wrapping things up. That’s it, ends with a whimper not a bang. To repeat myself from the Avengers thread, we’ve reached the point where Marvel have the formula down for introducing lesser known heroes, and where cramming them all in a film is very difficult. I just can’t picture Disney thinking “we must get Daredevil back at all costs!” Why? What money is there to be made that they couldn’t make with something else?

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Hard to say what exactly happened, since it sounds like there were a lot of problems with scripts.  That said, it's possible if Netflix wanted 10 eps but the contracts stipulated 13 and Marvel basically used that as the wedge to get Netflix to throw up its hands and let the show go, especially if there were issues with the scripts and/or the showrunner's wishes. I think LC was definitely "on the bubble" for Netflix and it saw a place for it at 10 episodes... but not at 13.

DD seems to have a lot more social media buzz and seems to have gotten more attention, so it may be a show that they'll be happier to keep going. We'll see.

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

Netflix pastes "original" over a lot of shows that aren't made by them, so I don't think the word really matters.  I mean, it says Bodyguard is a Netflix original, but I definitely watched it as it aired live on BBC (well, not live, but I generally watched the episodes a short time after they aired) the past couple of months.  

Netflix UK also claimed "better call Saul" and "the expanse" were originals too but as others say the defenders shows don't appear anywhere else.

 

1 hour ago, Morpheus said:

According to wikipedia, Netflix is merely the distributor, Marvel and ABC (a Disney company) are the producers, it is possible they can continue on Disney’s service. We are in an age where shows switch to different channels and platforms all the time.

I think it all depends on whatever agreement was signed at the time. I expect the money Netflix put up for it means they have it forever but who knows, it may have been a 10 year exclusive loan. 

I still think Disney really doesn't need to worry and can just make their own versions whenever they want to kill the Netflix rewatch value. It's just a shame when Coulter is perfect as Luke Cage. On the flip side I bet if marvel ever does iron fist he probably won't be a whiny rich white guy and can't do martial arts next time

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13 minutes ago, red snow said:

Netflix UK also claimed "better call Saul" and "the expanse" were originals too but as others say the defenders shows don't appear anywhere else.

Right.  My general point was just that them pasting the word original in front of shows doesn't really mean anything, as they frequently do it with shows that obviously aren't Netflix originals.  

In the instance of the Marvel shows, obviously they don't appear elsewhere because they were made specifically for Netflix.  Not sure they couldn't appear elsewhere (new seasons, at least) if Netflix were to cancel them, though.  Guess that depends on their deal with Marvel.

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3 hours ago, Ran said:

Yet per Netflix execs, only they can cancel the shows -- Marvel has no say -- which tells me these shows are their property and are being produced exclusively for them. Also fits with Disney saying they've no intention of moving the shows to their own streaming channel.

It would seem so. I think we can look forward to these shows remaining solely on Netflix - unless there is a sunset date for exclusivity stipulated in the Marvel-Netflix TV Series Deal. 

In terms of tone, I can't see any of the Marvel-Netflix shows fitting on a Disney service anyway. The Marvel TV shows that are in the works are being made by Marvel Studios (the movie outfit) so I expect their tone to be consistent with the MCU movies. So I can't see any reason why Disney would be chasing the Marvel-Netflix shows for their new service. However, the Fox deal brings up another possibility. Once/if that goes ahead then Disney will control Hulu and that might provide a venue for racier (and more violent) content - a bit like Touchstone Studios was for rated (Disney made) movies.  

2 hours ago, red snow said:

I still think Disney really doesn't need to worry and can just make their own versions whenever they want to kill the Netflix rewatch value. It's just a shame when Coulter is perfect as Luke Cage. On the flip side I bet if marvel ever does iron fist he probably won't be a whiny rich white guy and can't do martial arts next time

Yeah a damn shame.

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5 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

I think they’d need a very good reason to pronounce anything non-canon, that damages the concept of canon way more than it helps. It won’t ever happen. Probably, Punisher and JJ will come out, maybe a Defenders wrapping things up. That’s it, ends with a whimper not a bang. To repeat myself from the Avengers thread, we’ve reached the point where Marvel have the formula down for introducing lesser known heroes, and where cramming them all in a film is very difficult. I just can’t picture Disney thinking “we must get Daredevil back at all costs!” Why? What money is there to be made that they couldn’t make with something else?

I don't think the the people at Marvel Studios really consider the shows to be MCU canon to begin with. The most important detail of that story about the Loki and Scarlet witch shows was that they would be the first shows to be produced by Marvel Studios (under Feige) instead of the TV branch.

The reason for coming out and actually saying that they're non-canon or in another universe is that it lets Marvel keep making shows for other channels if they want. They'd just be more open about how they aren't in the same universe that the Avengers as moviegoers know them are operating in. 

Plus advertising-wise they may want to hype the fact that these will be the first shows that actually relate to the movies in any meaningful way. Loki isn't going to TAHITI and then everyone's just gonna not tell the Avengers he's alive because....why again? I remember Coulson specifically tells Sif not to tell Thor he's alive again. What a dick. 

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14 minutes ago, RumHam said:

I don't think the the people at Marvel Studios really consider the shows to be MCU canon to begin with.

Well, they started out as canon, but after the first round of shows I think they realized it was pretty much pointless to include them in the greater MCU (especially after the finger snap, which would just fuck everything up for the shows) since none of them were going to be showing up in the movies anyway.  They reference the Avengers 1 invasion and rebuilding New York quite a lot in the first seasons of these shows, but I don't recall a single mention of anything other than the other Netflix characters in Daredevil season three.  Same with Luke Cage season two.

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2 hours ago, briantw said:

Well, they started out as canon, but after the first round of shows I think they realized it was pretty much pointless to include them in the greater MCU (especially after the finger snap, which would just fuck everything up for the shows) since none of them were going to be showing up in the movies anyway.  They reference the Avengers 1 invasion and rebuilding New York quite a lot in the first seasons of these shows, but I don't recall a single mention of anything other than the other Netflix characters in Daredevil season three.  Same with Luke Cage season two.

Everything you say is correct, but also the Disney sale happened.  Part of that deal was that the movie arm of Marvel was made it's own thing and Feige no longer had to answer to Ike Pearlmutter.

The whole shifting of Inhumans from a movie to a TV show with an IMAX premier happened right around that same time. 

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1 hour ago, RumHam said:

Everything you say is correct, but also the Disney sale happened.  Part of that deal was that the movie arm of Marvel was made it's own thing and Feige no longer had to answer to Ike Pearlmutter.

The whole shifting of Inhumans from a movie to a TV show with an IMAX premier happened right around that same time. 

Interesting. So this could be as much about the TV/film marvel division as marvel Vs Netflix? I hadn't fully considered the impact of the streaming shows being by feige and the film groups. Using the Inhumans as an example I can see why Disney might prefer shows by the film division. Perlmutter would throw a pissy fit though.

Another thing to consider is that Netflix bought millarworld but have yet to make anything. Maybe they are thinking it would be easier to develop a franchise for something they own outright? I can't remember if any of the millarworld books are shared universe though? I'm also not a huge fan of the line of comics but the adaptations are usually stronger 

They also bought movie rights to some of liefelds creator owned books suggesting there's not much superhero IP out there for grabs anymore. To be honest when using those image comics where the best you can say for exposure is a tenuous but true "from thecreator of Deadpool" they should probably consider making completely original material.

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5 hours ago, RumHam said:

I don't think the the people at Marvel Studios really consider the shows to be MCU canon to begin with.

Maybe not, but there’s a world of difference between what they consider canon and what they would ‘announce’ as non-canon. It makes way more sense to just fudge things and leave them to fizzle out on Netflix, and keep their record of not declaring things non-canon. Coulter is good as Cage, and that by itself is a good enough reason not to reboot him on the Disney service. Again, none of these properties are that super lucrative compared to Marvel’s record of starting fresh with new people. Why confuse people with ‘oh, they’re doing Luke Cage now? Didn’t that get cancelled? Is this canon to the old show? Do I need to have watched the old show?’ Why bother? Considering they can make shows with actual MCU movie stars?

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3 hours ago, DaveSumm said:

Maybe not, but there’s a world of difference between what they consider canon and what they would ‘announce’ as non-canon. It makes way more sense to just fudge things and leave them to fizzle out on Netflix, and keep their record of not declaring things non-canon. Coulter is good as Cage, and that by itself is a good enough reason not to reboot him on the Disney service. Again, none of these properties are that super lucrative compared to Marvel’s record of starting fresh with new people. Why confuse people with ‘oh, they’re doing Luke Cage now? Didn’t that get cancelled? Is this canon to the old show? Do I need to have watched the old show?’ Why bother? Considering they can make shows with actual MCU movie stars?

They may want to have some of the characters as avengers at some stage? I also think viewers are fine with juggling versions of characters. Just look at Spider-Man. The fact his previous movie was shit didn't stop people checking out the MCU version.

They might be hard pressed to find a better actor to play Luke cage but it doesn't mean we'll never see someone play him in the MCU. At some point we will see other actors play Tony Stark and Steve Rogers in the MCU.

But it's not the end of the world if the MCU doesn't have any of the Netflix characters appear. With the exception of daredevil (who they probably felt was toxic due to the movie) I think the reason they got TV shows was because they didn't think they could make movie franchises out of them.

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8 hours ago, red snow said:

But it's not the end of the world if the MCU doesn't have any of the Netflix characters appear. With the exception of daredevil (who they probably felt was toxic due to the movie) I think the reason they got TV shows was because they didn't think they could make movie franchises out of them.

Although since then I think they've learned that they can slap Marvel on anything and people will see it.  Guardians of the Galaxy is a perfect example.  Nobody gave a shit about that comic, and now it's one of their biggest franchises.  

 

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43 minutes ago, briantw said:

Although since then I think they've learned that they can slap Marvel on anything and people will see it.  Guardians of the Galaxy is a perfect example.  Nobody gave a shit about that comic, and now it's one of their biggest franchises.  

 

Which is why they'd probably have control over how they use them in movies as opposed to how Netflix/jeph loeb handles them

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1 hour ago, red snow said:

Which is why they'd probably have control over how they use them in movies as opposed to how Netflix/jeph loeb handles them

Yeah.  I always thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not have any of the Netflix characters appear at all in any of the movies.  Like, they couldn't have tossed a couple of them into Civil War or had them cameo in the first Avengers?  Would have been fun to have one of the heroes in trouble and Daredevil show up to help, even if it was just a cameo.

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

Yeah.  I always thought it was a bit of a missed opportunity to not have any of the Netflix characters appear at all in any of the movies.  Like, they couldn't have tossed a couple of them into Civil War or had them cameo in the first Avengers?  Would have been fun to have one of the heroes in trouble and Daredevil show up to help, even if it was just a cameo.

Well that they couldn't do, since the shows hadn't even started production until after Avengers came out in 2012. I was hoping we'd get an episode of The Defenders featuring flashbacks to The Incident. Around that time I think Jessica would have still been under Killgrave's control. And Danny of course was off in Kun-Lun. 

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It was their lack of appearance in civil war that was most striking and revealing of how insulated TV and movies were from each other. I don't even recall the Netflix shows mentioning being hunted down which they should have under the sokovia act. Especially JJ and Luke cage who clearly have special powers. Although in fairness the movie was pointedly directed at controlling the avengers as opposed to registering all super heroes.

Given the fighting in new York and the consequences at stake you'd have thought some of the defenders would have lent a hand. Until we know how avengers infinity resolves it would be unfair to say the Netflix shows are ignoring the snap. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they found out about the snap at the same time as people who went to see the premier. 

On a positive note I'm enjoying daredevil season 3. So far it's stronger than season 2 (although season 2 only derailed for me in the second half).

I'd still like to know Netflix's cancellation algorithms. I noticed American vandal was cancelled. It sort of suggests they put a lot of emphasis on how many people complete a show within a month of release (or possibly more damning fail to finish). Whereas I watched the dragon prince within the week of release it it was renewed within a month. Again, if I knew this was important in a shows survival I'd alter my viewing habits accordingly. 

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16 minutes ago, red snow said:

Especially JJ and Luke cage who clearly have special powers.

To be fair, it's not widely known that Jessica has powers. She's not public, like Luke. There would be some reports, perhaps.

17 minutes ago, red snow said:

On a positive note I'm enjoying daredevil season 3. So far it's stronger than season 2 (although season 2 only derailed for me in the second half).

I'm having the opposite experience. I'm finding it very slow, probably the weakest season to date. I'm five episodes in and it's a slog.

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Just now, mormont said:

To be fair, it's not widely known that Jessica has powers. She's not public, like Luke. There would be some reports, perhaps.

I'm having the opposite experience. I'm finding it very slow, probably the weakest season to date. I'm five episodes in and it's a slog.

I think for me the Matt Murdock and Fisk moments outweigh the other elements which I agree suck the life out of an episode eg FBI agents and journalists. Plus I'm a couple of episodes ahead. The fight choreography is still excellent even when there's an element of "time for another 5 minute long well executed fight scene" creeping in by this stage. But it's true that the punisher arc in season 2 was very strong.

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The latter part of Season 3 (now on Episode 10) has descended into utter farce, to the point of comical near-lunacy. I'm struggling to understand why the season has gotten so much critical acclaim when it seems to have disappeared up its own arsehole.

 

Wilson Fisk is an immortal, ominiscent demigod who can see the future with utter clarity and put plans in place 2-3 years earlier to blackmail 20-odd FBI agents specifically to get them to work for him when this particular event takes place.

Also, Karen Page used to be a lowlife drug addict who shot her boyfriend and killed her brother in a car crash, which of course was compatible with how her character was portrayed in Season 1.

What the actual fuck?

Quote

 

I'd still like to know Netflix's cancellation algorithms. I noticed American vandal was cancelled. It sort of suggests they put a lot of emphasis on how many people complete a show within a month of release (or possibly more damning fail to finish). Whereas I watched the dragon prince within the week of release it it was renewed within a month. Again, if I knew this was important in a shows survival I'd alter my viewing habits accordingly. 

 

American Vandal was made for Netflix by an external production company, which I suspect is where the problem came from. It might be the same issue with the Marvel/ABC shows. Netflix has to share profits and income with those companies, whilst on a 100% Netflix Original they keep everything. I suspect they are clearing house of shows made by external production companies to bring everything inhouse.

The fact that American Vandal was also, repeatedly, used by critics as an example of shows that depict teenagers realistically, with Netflix's 13 Reasons Why specifically called out for being bullshit in that regard. Corporations are certainly not immune from fits of glass-skinned pique overriding good business sense.

Netflix I think are getting to the edge of their bubble bursting. They still haven't made a profit whilst their growth has slowed dramatically and they don't have a secondary revenue stream to subsidise them (as Amazon Prime Video has). Their two biggest originals, Orange is the New Black and House of Cards, are both ending soon. They know that the Disney/Fox merger and their new streaming service could completely curb-stomp their own back catalogue. They're certainly not out of the fight, but they need to up their game and cancelling expensive external shows and doing more originals is their way of doing that, although the wisdom of that is dubious.

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