Does the north treat its’ basards better?

[Varysblackfyre321]

This is a perhaps a foolish question  but I’ve repeatedly seen this claim that they do-what is the evidence for this?

[LindsayLohan]

Here's a good list of noble bastards:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy#Notable_Bastards

While it is entirely subjective, we can see male bastards of northern lords seem to be treated as actual nobility.  Jon Snow is raised in Winterfell and becomes Lord Commander of the Watch.  Ramsay Snow is brought into the Dreadfort and becomes Ramsay Bolton. Larence Snow is a Hornwood bastard, but fostered at Deepwood Motte, and his name is put forth for the Hornwood title and inheritance when his father dies.  Even historically, Brandon Snow (King Torrhen Stark's bastard brother) was high in Torrhen's councils, and actual sent on Torrhen's behalf to negotiate a surrender with Aegon the Conqueror. 

We don't really have a lot of examples of noble bastards in the north being treated like shit.  Even prior to Domeric's Bolton's death, Roose sent money, food, and a servant to Ramsay's mother, when he was still unacknowledged.  There are no Falia Flowers-type bastards noted in the North.

I'd say the premise is "mostly correct".

[Canon Claude]

The North, the Iron Islands, and Dorne all seem to view bastards in higher esteem than the rest of Westeros. It’s because of the Andal culture. The Andals are much more uptight about the subject as opposed to the First Men of the North, the Rhoynar in Dorne and the Ironborn. The biggest opposition Jon Snow faces at the wall come from southrons like Alliser Thorne and Janos Slynt. Roose does disparage Ramsay’s bastardy, but he’s talking to Catelyn, a woman from the Riverlands. Wyman Manderly, another Andal, also insults Ramsay’s heritage and blames it for his behaviour and nature.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Outside of Dorne of course, I would definitely say they are treated the best out of the rest of the Kingdoms. 

[Lord Vance II]

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It’s because of the Andal culture. The Andals are much more uptight about the subject as opposed to the First Men of the North, the Rhoynar in Dorne and the Ironborn. 

That's most likely it. Pretty similar to how "marriage" in Europe was much more loose before Christianity made it a sacrament. 

I wouldn't say bastards are treated better in the North, just that they aren't as looked down upon. It also seems like bastards are just a way of life in the Iron Islands given their rape & pillage MO.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, LindsayLohan said:

 

While it is entirely subjective, we can see male bastards of northern lords seem to be treated as actual nobility. 

Well yeah, we've only met acknowledged bastards in the North, we've not actually had any of the characters interact with the Northern smallfolk outside of the Stark's household. Arya, Ned, Sansa and Cat have interacted with more Southern smallfolk than Northern.

Acknowledged are treated better by both North and South. 

GRRM alludes to Brandon having left behind a few bastards

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

But like Robert's, sans Edric, they are not acknowledged. 

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Jon Snow is raised in Winterfell and becomes Lord Commander of the Watch.

Bloodraven was raised at the Red Keep and became the Hand of the King, the 2nd or 3rd Bastard to do so. Other bastards have sat on the Small Council or became Kingsguard members.

In the current series  Aurane Waters serves as the master of ships, Sam Stone is one of the most respected men in the Vale

"And Lord Belmore, Young Lord Hunter, Horton Redfort. They will bring Strong Sam Stone, the Tolletts, the Shetts, the Coldwaters, some Corbrays."

Joy Hill seems to have been no worse than Jon Snow, the same can be said of the Frey bastards and Jonas Bracken's son seems to have been raised as a noble, as does Ronnett Connington. The Bastard of Nightsong is also respected.

 

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Well yeah, we've only met acknowledged bastards in the North, we've not actually had any of the characters interact with the Northern smallfolk outside of the Stark's household. Arya, Ned, Sansa and Cat have interacted with more Southern smallfolk than Northern.

Acknowledged are treated better by both North and South. 

GRRM alludes to Brandon having left behind a few bastards

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

But like Robert's, sans Edric, they are not acknowledged. 

Bloodraven was raised at the Red Keep and became the Hand of the King, the 2nd or 3rd Bastard to do so. Other bastards have sat on the Small Council or became Kingsguard members.

In the current series  Aurane Waters serves as the master of ships, Sam Stone is one of the most respected men in the Vale

"And Lord Belmore, Young Lord Hunter, Horton Redfort. They will bring Strong Sam Stone, the Tolletts, the Shetts, the Coldwaters, some Corbrays."

Joy Hill seems to have been no worse than Jon Snow, the same can be said of the Frey bastards and Jonas Bracken's son seems to have been raised as a noble, as does Ronnett Connington. The Bastard of Nightsong is also respected.

 

This seems right. Hell if the north did by rule treat its bastards as nobility, I imagine there’d a lot instances one could cite where a peasant woman who was raped on the first night by her lord bringing her new child to the lord to raise or get aid in raising him or her. 

[The Lord of the Crossing]

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

This is a foolish but I’ve repeatedly seen this claim that they do-what is the evidence for this?

Bastardry is looked-down upon in the north.  Bastards can rise up the ranks at the wall and the citadel but the north is like the other regions of Westeros.  There may be specific examples of bastards getting good treatment in the north but I do not believe that is the norm.  If you want to find somebody who treats their bastards better than just about anyone, look no further than The Lord of the Crossing.  

[Ralphis Baratheon]

Domeric Bolton sought out his bastard brother because he wanted to be buds with him. He was a Northerner but spent a good chunk of his life in the Vale where he was well liked by his foster family.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

On 10/23/2018 at 6:15 AM, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Outside of Dorne of course, I would definitely say they are treated the best out of the rest of the Kingdoms. 

Yeah Dorne is for sure the place to be born a bastard in Westeros.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 minute ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Yeah Dorne is for sure the place to be born a bastard in Westeros.

Honestly that's one of the main reasons for me not believing in N+A=J. If Jon really was Ashara's son then why would Ned take him away from Dorne, where he would honestly have had a better life. I mean lets be real here, Jon wanted to join the Nights Watch because he thought he had no other options, but in Dorne he could've become a squire to someone like Oberyn Martell or something. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

9 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Honestly that's one of the main reasons for me not believing in N+A=J. If Jon really was Ashara's son then why would Ned take him away from Dorne, where he would honestly have had a better life. I mean lets be real here, Jon wanted to join the Nights Watch because he thought he had no other options, but in Dorne he could've become a squire to someone like Oberyn Martell or something. 

I totally agree with that. Packing wee Jon all the way up North would have been unnecessary, he would have been fine and dandy in Dorne.

There may be more to the whole R+L=J, but I do not think it is N+A=J.

Also, if you do assume N+A=J and if you imagine for a moment that Ashara lived and legitimized Jon, would he not be the next male in line to inherit Starfall? Would she have needed to legitimize him even if Ned didn't acknowledge him but she did? Pretty sure he would skip past Edric if all that had happened. I'm way out here with this but oh well.

[Shouldve Taken The Black]

On ‎10‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 10:28 AM, LindsayLohan said:

Here's a good list of noble bastards:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy#Notable_Bastards

While it is entirely subjective, we can see male bastards of northern lords seem to be treated as actual nobility.  Jon Snow is raised in Winterfell and becomes Lord Commander of the Watch.  Ramsay Snow is brought into the Dreadfort and becomes Ramsay Bolton. Larence Snow is a Hornwood bastard, but fostered at Deepwood Motte, and his name is put forth for the Hornwood title and inheritance when his father dies.  Even historically, Brandon Snow (King Torrhen Stark's bastard brother) was high in Torrhen's councils, and actual sent on Torrhen's behalf to negotiate a surrender with Aegon the Conqueror.  

We don't really have a lot of examples of noble bastards in the north being treated like shit.  Even prior to Domeric's Bolton's death, Roose sent money, food, and a servant to Ramsay's mother, when he was still unacknowledged.  There are no Falia Flowers-type bastards noted in the North.

I'd say the premise is "mostly correct".

That list you provided also lists a whole number of Southron bastards who are treated well.

There's no real indication that bastards are thought of differently in the North. Andal culture and the Faith may have an impact on how bastards are viewed, but at best those opinions have obviously found their way north. Lady Hornwood speaks of bastards with disdain, and Ned clearly thinks that the idea that he fathered a bastard is a source of shame. Jon Snow clearly considers himself a class below his brothers and sisters. In fact, our primary introduction to how bastards are perceived, and their position in society, is via Jon's POV and others' thoughts about him.  

[Euron III Greyjoy]

42 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

There may be more to the whole R+L=J, but I do not think it is N+A=J.

Yeah I believe R+L=J, but I don't believe it to be the fairy tale the show made it out to be. My guess is that there was an attraction between Rhaegar and Lyanna, hell maybe they actually did full on love each other. I also think that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar, but once she found out about her father and brother getting killed she wanted to leave, but due to her being pregnant at that point Rhaegar didn't let her, because he thinks this child will be more important then anything else. 

47 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Also, if you do assume N+A=J and if you imagine for a moment that Ashara lived and legitimized Jon, would he not be the next male in line to inherit Starfall? Would she have needed to legitimize him even if Ned didn't acknowledge him but she did? Pretty sure he would skip past Edric if all that had happened. I'm way out here with this but oh well.

I'm not sure if Jon could be legitimised without Ned acknowledging him, it would be Ashara's word against Ned's, and with Robert being King he would probably take Ned's side over Ashara's, but I think Ned it too honorable not to acknowledge Jon as his son anyway.

If he did get legitimised I'm pretty sure Edric would still come before him to inherit Starfall. Edric is the son of Ashara's older brother, so any children by him would inherit before any child of Arthur, Ashara, or Allyria. 

[The hairy bear]

I agree that there's no basis to assume that the Northeners attitude towards bastards is better than in the Andal kingdoms of the South. Jon Snow is clearly depicted as an anomaly, and both Ramsay and Larence only reach some degree of notability because they became the last surviving child of their respective fathers.

And anyway, the 'supposed' mistreatment of the noble bastards in Westeros tends to be greatly overstated. They are not expected to inherit, and they are not expected to be raised among their noble-born half siblings. But they are still a privileged class, with plenty of opportunities and with a more comfortable upbringing than 99% of the population.

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Also, if you do assume N+A=J and if you imagine for a moment that Ashara lived and legitimized Jon, would he not be the next male in line to inherit Starfall? Would she have needed to legitimize him even if Ned didn't acknowledge him but she did? Pretty sure he would skip past Edric if all that had happened. I'm way out here with this but oh well.

Edric Dayne's father was older than Ashara, so he and Edric would always inherit Starfall before Ashara and her potential children.

[Valyrian Lance]

I don't know if it can be said that recognized bastards are treated much differently anywhere. Most all of the recognized bastards that we have heard of in the story are treated somewhat well. Though they all face scorn and/or dirty looks and words. Some are Knights, some are raised to council seats, some are consorts to Lords, some have married Ladies.