Sansa marries Lancel not Tyrion

[norwaywolf123]

On 10/24/2018 at 5:36 PM, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

At the risk of sounding rude, aren't you basically just speculating without evidence? I mean anything "could" happen. I could say "Tyrion could become the King of Westeros at the end of the story" or "Jon Snow could be the son of Brandon Stark and a lost Blackfyre Princess" but it wouldn't make it true. 

I'm just going by the evidence we have been given. Lancel got injured, healed by a member of the Faith of the Seven, and turned into a very pious man. I can only assume by the evidence given that simply changing the woman he married wouldn't really affect his state of mind. 

My point is just that X does not always lead to Z. 

[norwaywolf123]

8 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

House Stark's existence is threatened by a union. It invites a succession crisis, especially if no Northern Lords recognize her children as having a claim. Her children would be named Lannister and they would be Kings in the North? Unlikely. Robb bumped Jon up in the line of succession for this reason. There is no advantage for this "match" on the Stark side, as they are currently being exterminated, and marrying their eldest daughter to a Lannister is another method of doing that. With Bran and Rickon alive her kids would be laughed out of the North.

Don't get me wrong, I think House Stark may die off in name anyway. But it won't be because of Tywin's plans suceeding. 

Sansa's children could take her last name. While it may not be common for children to take their last name, or husband take their wifes name it has happened in canon. Joffey Lydden married tha Lannister king's only daughter, he later took her name and ruled as a Lannister. We can presume that if Joffrey Lydden and this Lannister princess/queen have any descendants, that they would use their maternal name(Lannister) instead of their paternal name(Lydden). Perhaps Sansa's children with a Lannister would take Sansa's name instead of the Lannister name. The Stark name carries more prestige, legitimacy and authority in the North than the Lannister name.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

57 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

My point is just that X does not always lead to Z. 

Fine fine, whatever. You win. I just don't understand why you asked these questions in the first place when you clearly had your own answers already. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, it is not. Currently Roose Bolton rules the North as Warden, Ramsay is the Lord Protector of Winterfell through his 'Stark' bride. Jeyne Poole. This is not good for the Starks, what Tywin was proposing was far better for them. Tywin's plan was for Tyrion's grandson to retake the North, with Tyrion serving as Lord Protector till his son came of age. 

Robb and Catelyn do not want Winterfell to go to Tyrion. So, the union is on the Stark side is unwanted. Do you think they'd prefer this option over Jeyne/Ramsay or even, hypothetically, Arya/Ramsay? How about neither. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

They might not do, but given the military and financial support a battle against the Bolton's in Spring would be very one sided, especially with the knowledge that Ramsay's wife is not actually a Stark but Jeyne Poole. 

It just repeats fArya and the cycle of violence. The North would have to be held by force and fear by the family that killed their Lord. Sansa would be just as much a pawn as fArya. The marriage benefits the crown more than it benefits House Stark or the North. 

10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, they'd be Stark. Winterfell has not been given away by the Crown, legally it is still held by House Stark, thus Tyrion is only Lord Protector rather than actual Lord. 

And to do that he'd have to rape her. So. . . I think any child of hers would be a Bael the Bard situation. House Stark "benefits" in the way that their daughter gets raped to continue the line. Moreover, her children might not even inherit because there are still living Starks (again, this is House Stark's perspective). She could have wed anyone else but it had to be the family who killed Ned Stark and his wife and son. 

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

At the time of Tyrion's wedding there was no King in the North (both Robb and Balon had died).  The North was part of westeros with Roose serving as Warden. 

You've got your timeline mixed up. Robb dies after Tyrion and Sansa's wedding. There are 4 Catelyn chapters after that. 

You are taking the Lannister's perspective on this "match." From House Stark's perspective they want a match that benefits their cause and respects the sovereignty of the North. After Robb thinks about it, he realizes he should have married Sansa to a Tyrell. Sansa/Tyrion was never beneficial for them. Furthermore, it helps the politics if Sansa actually wants to consummate the marriage, which is good for public relations. This is why Lady Dustin remarks how Jeyne crying all the time is a danger to their legitimacy. One way of ensuring a happy match is to marry her to the House who isn't responsible for killing her family. Additionally, after Tywin arranged to kill the eldest Stark (sooo beneficial to House Stark, amiright?) Sansa IS House Stark now. And if she decides the marriage doesnt benefit her because she refuses to consummate it, it doesn't benefit House Stark. Sansa could get Winterfell through a husband who isn't a stick in the eye to every Northerner she would encounter and a husband she actually wants. The crown has arranged this match without consulting anyone. This is not "matchmaking." This is a power grab. This marriage is a liability for her ruling Winterfell because the North remembers who stole it. 

[Humble Maester]

While I mostly agree with the gist of what @Bernie Mac has been saying, ie. that Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa not because he is an evil creep who wants Sansa to suffer but simply because he wanted to reward Tyrion for his deeds and also wanted to get Lannister hands on the North.

On the other hand, I do think Bernic Mac did err in bringing up the point of mutually beneficial alliances, as this obviously isn't a case of one. This is a case of a forced marriage between a hostage and a prominent member from the faction holding the hostage, so obviously there will be no quid pro quo involved. It is true that in the long run, at least from Tywin's limited point of view, this could lead into a Stark descendant becoming a leader of the North more likely than other cases, but I honestly doubt Tywin had this in his mind in any other sense than in thinking of how this would legitimize Lannister control over the North.

[norwaywolf123]

3 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

Fine fine, whatever. You win. I just don't understand why you asked these questions in the first place when you clearly had your own answers already. 

I just don't know if Lancel turned pious in a short time span or if it took a longer time. How long did it take?

 

While Lancel did resist bedding Amerei after their wedding, even though his father would expect it. Would he be able to do so in Tywins presence?

 

If Lancel had been wedded to Sansa earlier, would he have been given other advice form the High Septon? Perhaps the septon could tell Lancel that some people can serve the gods better as lords than as a cleric.

 

What i wonder about is the stuff that has not been mentioned in the books.

[norwaywolf123]

20 minutes ago, Humble Maester said:

While I mostly agree with the gist of what @Bernie Mac has been saying, ie. that Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa not because he is an evil creep who wants Sansa to suffer but simply because he wanted to reward Tyrion for his deeds and also wanted to get Lannister hands on the North.

Amerei was wedded to Lancel as part of the Lannister-Frey-Bolton deal. Perhaps Tyrion could have wed Amerei, while Lancel wed Sansa. Then Tyrion could be lord of Darry, that too is a reward. In Darry Tyrion could found his own house.

[Humble Maester]

Just now, norwaywolf123 said:

Amerei was wedded to Lancel as part of the Lannister-Frey-Bolton deal. Perhaps Tyrion could have wed Amerei, while Lancel wed Sansa. Then Tyrion could be lord of Darry, that too is a reward. In Darry Tyrion could found his own house.

You aren't wrong but Tyrion is Tywin's son, and Lancel is Kevan's son, so it's obvious who will be getting which bride as a reward, not to mention Tyrion actually deserving a reward unlike Lancel. So I suppose yeah but also no? Also even if that had happened I don't think it'd made much of a difference, Lancel would remain religious nutter, Tyrion would remain in King's Landing as he was Master of Coin (second part of his reward), Sansa would still be disowned, and Ami would likely just hang in Darry.

[Angel Eyes]

5 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

While I mostly agree with the gist of what @Bernie Mac has been saying, ie. that Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa not because he is an evil creep who wants Sansa to suffer but simply because he wanted to reward Tyrion for his deeds and also wanted to get Lannister hands on the North.

Tywin is an evil creep who likes to have people suffer and doesn’t care how people feel, just that they heel to his will. Tysha can attest to that when he had his men rape her for marrying Tyrion, while Elia Martell was raped, bisected and her head crushed simply for being the lady Rhaegar married instead of Tywin’s daughter. He’s built his reputation around answering a slight with extreme prejudice and in this case, he has Tyrion marry Sansa because she tried to get out from under the Lannisters thumb and he knows she’ll be humiliated and fear Tyrion, for whom could ever learn to love a beast like Tyrion? He told Tyrion that the night he found out about Tyrion’s marriage to Tysha.

[Lord Lannister]

8 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

You aren't wrong but Tyrion is Tywin's son, and Lancel is Kevan's son, so it's obvious who will be getting which bride as a reward, not to mention Tyrion actually deserving a reward unlike Lancel. So I suppose yeah but also no? Also even if that had happened I don't think it'd made much of a difference, Lancel would remain religious nutter, Tyrion would remain in King's Landing as he was Master of Coin (second part of his reward), Sansa would still be disowned, and Ami would likely just hang in Darry.

Tywin might not mind having Tyrion out of sight, out of mind in Darry. For that matter, having his own corner of the world to do with as he pleases would likely suit Tyrion. I could see him getting into all kinds of mischief in the Riverlands, with Bronn and his sellsword knights.

Rewarding Tyrion was secondary if not lower. Securing the North for House Lannister was the concern. If Tyrion willingly handed his prize to Lancel, so much the better. Lancel might be awhile in consummating the marriage but resisting Kevan, and resisting Tywin are two different things. 

[Bernie Mac]

9 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

 

On the other hand, I do think Bernic Mac did err in bringing up the point of mutually beneficial alliances, as this obviously isn't a case of one.

It actually was at the time (and still so thus far in the series) beneficial to both Houses;

 

• Robb had lost control of the North and marching to his death at the Twins
• The Starks had lost the Wardenship of the North to the Boltons
• Balon was still (one of three) kings of the North
• While Winterfell was technically theirs in name, it would actually be ruled via Jeyne Poole and her and Ramsay's fake Stark children. 

In the short term Tywin's marriage alliance was giving an actual Stark back Winterfell, military might to defeat both the Ironborn and Boltons and the financial support to rebuild in Spring. 

In the long term the marriage alliance would mean the next Lord Stark, his siblings and children would all be related to the Royal family and the rulers of the Westerlands. 

 

Tywin was bringing the Starks back into the fold, along with the Crown (Baratheon of Kings Landing), Lannister, Tyrell and possibly Baratheon of the Stormlands (Tywin must have had plans for the seat of Storm's End) they'd be the power block in charge. Now from a reader's perspective, who still primarily see House Stark as belonging to Robb, are under the idea that his wishes should dictate the future but dynasties don't work like that. 

9 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

This is a case of a forced marriage between a hostage and a prominent member from the faction holding the hostage, 

Which in the middle ages was just another high profile marriage.  To make amends with the monarch/overlord heirs were hostages and made to marry people the Crown wanted them to.  Kevan's bride was a hostage yet House Swyft marrying into the Lannisters was in their best interests. 

 

9 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Amerei was wedded to Lancel as part of the Lannister-Frey-Bolton deal. Perhaps Tyrion could have wed Amerei, while Lancel wed Sansa. Then Tyrion could be lord of Darry, that too is a reward. In Darry Tyrion could found his own house.

The North is the greater prize. 

 

4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

 Tyrion, for whom could ever learn to love a beast like Tyrion? He told Tyrion that the night he found out about Tyrion’s marriage to Tysha.

No, he does not. 

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=beast&povs[]=Tyrion

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

Robb and Catelyn do not want Winterfell to go to Tyrion.

Robb was a dead man walking. On top of that his motivation was not what was best for his House but his need for revenge. 

He is playing the boy now, not the king. "The Lannisters do not need the north. They will require homage and hostages, no more . . . and the Imp will keep Sansa no matter what we do, so they have their hostage. The ironmen will prove a more implacable enemy, I promise you. To have any hope of holding the north, the Greyjoys must leave no single sprig of House Stark alive to dispute their right. Theon's murdered Bran and Rickon, so now all they need do is kill you . . . and Jeyne, yes. Do you think Lord Balon can afford to let her live to bear you heirs?"

Robb's face was cold. "Is that why you freed the Kingslayer? To make a peace with the Lannisters?"

"I freed Jaime for Sansa's sake . . . and Arya's, if she still lives. You know that. But if I nurtured some hope of buying peace as well, was that so ill?"

"Yes," he said. "The Lannisters killed my father."

 

Cat was trying to make him see sense, he did not care. He'd rather carry on fighting till all was lost. This is not in House Stark's best interests. It was also not in the North's best interests and explains why half of the Northern army at the Twins turned on him. 

 

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

So, the union is on the Stark side is unwanted.

I'm talking House Stark's best interests, my original post was more than clear on this, Robb is just one individual of that House.

At the battle of Bosworth Field the Duke of Norfolk killed fighting for his king, Dickie the third, his son and grandson captured, stripped of most of their lands and titles and chucked in the Tower of London for 3 years. A little while later Thomas Howard married the new King's sister-in-law thus beginning House Howards rehabilitation under the Tudors were they would regain their titles and prestige (and then some). This was how wars were put to bed, how lords got a chance to regain status. Marrying Henry Tudor's sister-in-law was absolutely in House Howard's best interests despite their status as sworn enemies for a number of years. 

Every major House during the middle ages, from the Howards to the Nevilles to the Percys to the Seymours, Staffords etc. will have had (multiple) members who fell foul  of the ruler, been killed or lost titles. The successful ones learnt to get over it, jumped at the opportunity to marry a relative or ally of the Crown. 

 

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

You've got your timeline mixed up. Robb dies after Tyrion and Sansa's wedding. There are 4 Catelyn chapters after that. 

 The betrothal happens before Robb's death, though Tywin has already arranged it

Tyrion Lannister, Lord Protector of Winterfell. The prospect gave him a queer chill. "Very good, Father," he said slowly, "but there's a big ugly roach in your rushes. Robb Stark is as capable as I am, presumably, and sworn to marry one of those fertile Freys. And once the Young Wolf sires a litter, any pups that Sansa births are heirs to nothing."

Lord Tywin was unconcerned. "Robb Stark will father no children on his fertile Frey, you have my word. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

You are taking the Lannister's perspective on this "match." From House Stark's perspective they want a match that benefits their cause and respects the sovereignty of the North.

You mean Robb. Pragmatically speaking Robb was not interested in what was best for House Stark, but in revenge. 

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

 

After Robb thinks about it, he realizes he should have married Sansa to a Tyrell. Sansa/Tyrion was never beneficial for them.

Not to Robb, but to House Stark. Sansa being married to an ally of the Crown is the only real incentive they have for not 100% backing the Boltons, Greyjoys, Mance or some other faction.

Robb had already lost his brothers, his capital, large parts of his army were turning against him. His refusal to be pragmatic was making his House weaker and weaker. He, the first Stark in thousands of years to lose control of the North, was not a good leader for House Stark, it would be in a healthier position with Sansa. 

10 hours ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

 

Furthermore, it helps the politics if Sansa actually wants to consummate the marriage, which is good for public relations.

Yeah, this is not true at all. Cersei rarely had sex with Robert, it did not affect public relatio

 

 

 

[norwaywolf123]

15 hours ago, Humble Maester said:

You aren't wrong but Tyrion is Tywin's son, and Lancel is Kevan's son, so it's obvious who will be getting which bride as a reward, not to mention Tyrion actually deserving a reward unlike Lancel. So I suppose yeah but also no? Also even if that had happened I don't think it'd made much of a difference, Lancel would remain religious nutter, Tyrion would remain in King's Landing as he was Master of Coin (second part of his reward), Sansa would still be disowned, and Ami would likely just hang in Darry.

Lancel was rewarded as a proxy for Kevan being rewarded.

 

Tyrion being Tywin's son is probably an advantage, i agree.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Robb was a dead man walking. On top of that his motivation was not what was best for his House but his need for revenge. 

 

And you are saying Tywin is doing what's best for House Stark. By killing them and forcibly marrying them. Surely you can see why some would object to your argument. 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

The successful ones learnt to get over it, jumped at the opportunity to marry a relative or ally of the Crown. 

Perhaps GRRM is critiquing this system and Sansa's bravest moment is using what small power she has to resist it. Perhaps she did the right thing by not consummating this marriage because she'll have an easier time annulling it, to make a mutually beneficial match for herself. 

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I'm talking House Stark's best interests, my original post was more than clear on this, Robb is just one individual of that House.

So it's in the best interest of House Stark if Sansa lets Tyrion rape her? Do you really wanna go there? I don't think we should lose sight of the characters we're seeing this world through. This isn't a dry wikipedia article we're reading. We're supposed to see events through her eyes; not simply take the perspective of the callous feudal system at every plot point.

Plus, Sansa can put Tyrion on trial, execute him for something he actually did (3rd trial's a charm!) and marry someone whom she chooses, which is exactly what I think is going to happen at the end of the book. It's not like women in those times didn't kill their husbands. Isabella "The She-Wolf" of France comes to mind. And it's not like Tyrion won't do something in the future to deserve it. If they reunite, Sansa should fear for her life; Tyrion has murdered and raped women out of anger and revenge.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 The betrothal happens before Robb's death, though Tywin has already arranged it

You said that when Tyrion is married Robb was dead. Just clarifying the timeline because when the marriage happens - Robb is very much alive. If this was to the benefit of both houses, House Stark should have some say in the matter. But, since they're at war, "mutually beneficial" doesn't even compute. I agree that Robb's thinking was deeply flawed but that's why Sansa is the de-facto leader of House Stark now.

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You mean Robb. Pragmatically speaking Robb was not interested in what was best for House Stark, but in revenge. 

Well, Tywin is obsessed with legacy and that was just as short-sighted. Tywin got killed by his own son. Robb got killed by his own bannermen. They are similar in this respect. 

Tywin isn't thinking about what's best for the surviving members of House Stark. The #1 reason he married Sansa to Tyrion is to stop the Tyrells from taking the North through her. A Tyrell/Stark marriage could still benefit the crown, benefit House Stark, would be with someone whom Sansa actually wants to marry, and it's what Robb would have done anyway. This is a better example of mutually beneficial. 

Moreover, when the betrothal happens the Greyjoys had Winterfell. Tywin thought the North would rise in support of Ned's Grandson/Tyrion's son (???).

Let's put it this way: Tywin does not understand the North, he relies too much on force and fear to take it (just like Theon; just like Ramsay) and he overestimates how warmly the Northerners will react to Sansa and her Lannister husband (Just as Littlefinger overestimates how he can wrest control of the North through forced marriage - it's probably gonna fail for that reason). 

If Tywin's plan did play out, its not hard to imagine that the Northerners would execute Tyrion, put Sansa on the throne or if not her - Jon (Robb's will), and wait until winter to rebel against the crown because no southern army can even have a chance of suppressing a Northern rebellion during the height of winter. 

All of this is moot anyway. Once Sansa escaped the Lannister's grasp, Tywin apparently had little use for Tyrion and was fine with putting his own son on trial for regicide or having him take the Black. 

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Yeah, this is not true at all. Cersei rarely had sex with Robert, it did not affect public relatio

 

An unhappy match threw the seven kingdoms into chaos in the form of 3 bastards named Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella. An unhappy marriage can result in disastrous politics later on.

The overall point is, Tywin's special brand of forced marriages don't lead to peace.

[Bernie Mac]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:55 AM, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

And you are saying Tywin is doing what's best for House Stark.

I was actually pretty clear what I  said.

"Traditionally noble marriages were arranged for the benefit of both Houses, not to please the romantic longings of the couple."

Which is true. Noble marriages often benefit both sides, in the case of Tyrion and Sansa it is true. It would have ended the war, took Winterfell away from Jeyne Poole and seen the next generation of Starks cousins to the Royal family and House Lannister. This is absolutely to House Starks long term benefit. 

Alternatively the Crown could have attainted House Stark, awarded their lands to other Houses and made Sansa join the Silent Sisters to assure she would never have more Stark heirs. The marriage offered the Starks to rehabilitate. 

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By killing them and forcibly marrying them.

lol where did I claim that killing them was in their best interests? Look if you are resorting to making up false arguments not made this early it should let you know how shaky your argument is. 

I am happy to discuss this with you but please don't resort to strawman arguments.  

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Perhaps GRRM is critiquing this system and Sansa's bravest moment is using what small power she has to resist it. Perhaps she did the right thing by not consummating this marriage because she'll have an easier time annulling it, to make a mutually beneficial match for herself. 

No idea what you are going on about here or how it relates to what I said.

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So it's in the best interest of House Stark if Sansa lets Tyrion rape her?

That is pretty dumb. 

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Do you really wanna go there?

No. Not once did I suggest that. It is infantile for you to resort to this kind of attack because someone disagreed with your opinion. Accusing others of being rape apologists to try and win an argument insults everyone including actual victims of rape.

Arranged marriages were the norm in their society, Cat had never met Ned before their wedding day, it was not rape when they had sex. Tyrion was more than willing to wait till Sansa was ready.

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I don't think we should lose sight of the characters we're seeing this world through. This isn't a dry wikipedia article we're reading. We're supposed to see events through her eyes; not simply take the perspective of the callous feudal system at every plot point.

eh? 

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Plus, Sansa can put Tyrion on trial, execute him for something he actually did (3rd trial's a charm!)

How  can she do that from Kings Landing?

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and marry someone whom she chooses, which is exactly what I think is going to happen at the end of the book.

It may well do. What on earth does this have to do with Tywin's plan?

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 It's not like women in those times didn't kill their husbands. Isabella "The She-Wolf" of France comes to mind. And it's not like Tyrion won't do something in the future to deserve it. If they reunite, Sansa should fear for her life; Tyrion has murdered and raped women out of anger and revenge.

What are you going on about? This has nothing to do with what I said. 

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You said that when Tyrion is married Robb was dead.

And then clarified that at the time of Tyrion and Sansa's betrothal Tywin was well aware of Robb's fate. 

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 But, since they're at war, "mutually beneficial" doesn't even compute.

It does. I've gone over it, given real life examples. For Robb it was not good, for the survival and future of House Stark it was.

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Tywin isn't thinking about what's best for the surviving members of House Stark.

At no point in my original post did I claim he was. Tywin's motives were what was best for the Crown, House Lannister and Westeros but they are not mutually exclusive to also benefiting House Stark. 

Tywin could have repeated his punishment of House Tully on House Stark, instead he chose rehabilitation. 

 

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The #1 reason he married Sansa to Tyrion is to stop the Tyrells from taking the North through her.

Yep. Can you quote where you think I dispute that?

Once again, I said it would benefit both Houses, at no point did I claim it was the only beneficial option to House Stark or the most. 

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A Tyrell/Stark marriage could still benefit the crown, benefit House Stark,

Sure. At no point have I claimed otherwise. 

But there is little upside for House Lannister in this marriage. 

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would be with someone whom Sansa actually wants to marry,

Sansa also wanted to marry Joffrey, she's not the best judge of character. 

Sansa has never met Willas, all she knows about him is from his family trying to convince her to marry him. We, the reader, have little idea on him as a partner.

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and it's what Robb would have done anyway.

Well no, its not. Robb only thought of it after the Tyrells joined the Crown. 

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This is a better example of mutually beneficial. 

It's actually not.  House Lannister gains little, infact it actually weakens them by making the Tyrells stronger.

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Moreover, when the betrothal happens the Greyjoys had Winterfell. Tywin thought the North would rise in support of Ned's Grandson/Tyrion's son (???).

Yes, that is the quote I used. 

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Let's put it this way: Tywin does not understand the North,

Sure he does. He was able to use a northern lord to remove Robb. He clearly understands the North better than you (or I for that matter, he lives in that world and been an accomplished leader for 40 years). 

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he relies too much on force and fear to take it

No, he did it through negotiation. Roose was not forced, nor was he in fear. 

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(just like Theon;

lol nothing like Theon. Theon used guile to take Winterfell and then was under the impression he could hold it with a dozen men. 

You thinking Tywin and Theon are at all similar means you are misunderstood about at least one, possibly both, of these characters. 

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just like Ramsay)

You thinking Tywin and Ramsay are at all similar means you are misunderstood about at least one, possibly both, of these characters. 

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and he overestimates how warmly the Northerners will react to Sansa and her Lannister husband

How so? Where is your evidence for this?

Tywin simply states that the Northmen would prefer the grandson of Ned Stark to either the Boltons or Ironborn, do you really disagree with that?

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(Just as Littlefinger overestimates how he can wrest control of the North through forced marriage - it's probably gonna fail for that reason). 

This is a forum for the books, not the show. 

Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. 

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Lord Bolton will wed the girl to his bastard son. We shall allow the Dreadfort to fight the ironborn for a few years, and see if he can bring Stark's other bannermen to heel. Come spring, all of them should be at the end of their strength and ready to bend the knee. The north will go to your son by Sansa Stark . . . 

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If Tywin's plan did play out, its not hard to imagine that the Northerners would execute Tyrion, put Sansa on the throne or if not her - Jon (Robb's will), and wait until winter to rebel against the crown because no southern army can even have a chance of suppressing a Northern rebellion during the height of winter. 

Yeah, you might actually want to read what Tywin's plan was because it is clear from your posts that you have not. 

[Widow's Wail]

Lancel did not choose the life of a religious man just because he was dying. It took a lot more than that. At Lord Tywin's funeral, he was still clinging to his worldly aspirations and being disappointed by his prospects.

[...] But Lancel lingered, the very picture of a man with one foot in the grave. But is he climbing in or climbing out?

Cersei forced herself to smile. “Lancel, I am happy to see you looking so much stronger. Maester Ballabar brought us such dire reports, we feared for your life. But I would have thought you on your way to Darry by now, to take up your lordship.” Her father had made Lancel a lord after the Battle of the Blackwater, as a sop to his brother Kevan.

“Not as yet. There are outlaws in my castle.” Her cousin’s voice was as wispy as the mustache on his upper lip. Though his hair had gone white, his mustache fuzz remained a sandy color. Cersei had often gazed up at it while the boy was inside her, pumping dutifully away. It looks like a smudge of dirt on his lip. She used to threaten to scrub it off with a little spit. “The riverlands have need of a strong hand, my father says.”

A pity that they’re getting yours, she wanted to say. Instead she smiled. “And you are to be wed as well.”

A gloomy look passed across the young knight’s ravaged face. “A Frey girl, and not of my choosing. She is not even maiden. A widow, of Darry blood. My father says that will help me with the peasants, but the peasants are all dead.” He reached for her hand. “It is cruel, Cersei. Your Grace knows that I love—”

“—House Lannister,” she finished for him. “No one can doubt that, Lancel. May your wife give you strong sons.” Best not let her lord grandfather host the wedding, though. “I know you will do many noble deeds in Darry.”

Lancel nodded, plainly miserable. “When it seemed that I might die, my father brought the High Septon to pray for me. He is a good man.” Her cousin’s eyes were wet and shiny, a child’s eyes in an old man’s face. “He says the Mother spared me for some holy purpose, so I might atone for my sins.”

Cersei wondered how he intended to atone for her. [...] “Atonement is best achieved through prayer,” Cersei told him. “Silent prayer.” She left him to think about that [...] A Feast for Crows - Cersei II

Sansa is a hottie with a golden heart. He might not have been so willing to give her up. yet again, that marriage wouldn't have been consummated either as Lancel was indisposed until Joffrey's wedding and Sansa disappeared during.  In the end, nothing changes for Lancel, Tyrion, or Sansa. 

She is good at this, he thought, as he watched her tell Lord Gyles that his cough was sounding better, compliment Elinor Tyrell on her gown, and question Jalabhar Xho about wedding customs in the Summer Isles. His cousin Ser Lancel had been brought down by Ser Kevan, the first time he’d left his sickbed since the battle. He looks ghastly. Lancel’s hair had turned white and brittle, and he was thin as a stick. Without his father beside him holding him up, he would surely have collapsed. Yet when Sansa praised his valor and said how good it was to see him getting strong again, both Lancel and Ser Kevan beamed. She would have made Joffrey a good queen and a better wife if he’d had the sense to love her. He wondered if his nephew was capable of loving anyone. A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Tyrion was more than willing to wait till Sansa was ready.

"And what if I never want to, my lord?"

Tywins plans falling apart right there. 

She's basically saying, you'll have to rape me. And you're basically arguing for this, if you think Tywin's plan is the best choice for a Stark restoration.

3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

This is a forum for the books, not the show

Yeah, I know. Harry is another marriage she doesn't want. I cant wait until she runs away like the other women in the story who are subjected to the same b.s. - i.e. JEYNE and ALYS.

You're basically saying women have to go along with feudal marriages, and they can never resist. When he has written women in the story, resisting. 

Sansa doesnt have to do whatever Littlefinger or Tywin tell her. If she doesnt want to consummate or marry, she can find ways to resist, just like Cersei can refuse sex with Robert if she wants. I'm sure Cersei would come up with some interesting ways to resist her own betrothal to Willas.

I cant reply to the rest of your comments, I'm so grossed out by this entire idea that to benefit House Stark, Sansa needs to open her legs for Tyrion because Lord Tywin, her captor and murderer of her family, has decided its for the good of her House.

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Keep Shelly in Athens said:

"And what if I never want to, my lord?"

Do you not understand what if means? Sansa does not know herself. 

Who knows what their future would have been, but they were married and no one had been raped. 

But you seem to misunderstand what is being said. Sansa is not equating her situation with rape

He is as frightened as I am, Sansa realized. Perhaps that should have made her feel more kindly toward him, but it did not. All she felt was pity, and pity was death to desire. He was looking at her, waiting for her to say something, but all her words had withered. She could only stand there trembling.

When he finally realized that she had no answer for him, Tyrion Lannister drained the last of his wine. "I understand," he said bitterly. "Get in the bed, Sansa. We need to do our duty."

She climbed onto the featherbed, conscious of his stare. A scented beeswax candle burned on the bedside table and rose petals had been strewn between the sheets. She had started to pull up a blanket to cover herself when she heard him say, "No."

Tyrion does not want them to have sex until she is attracted to him, but people do have sex with people they are not attracted to. As long as its consensual it is not rape. 

 

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Tywins plans falling apart right there. 

Again, the word 'if'. 

 

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She's basically saying, you'll have to rape me.

lol no, she is not. She is a POV character, if those were her thoughts we'd know them. 

Arranged marriage was the norm in their (and our own) noble society, many partners were able to procreate despite not being in love or even finding the other attractive, either physically or personally. 

I don't want to be rude, but it is kind of an immature stance you are taking on the subject. 

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And you're basically arguing for this,

Can you please just debate what I've actually said rather than you jumping through hoops to a point I've never made. It's disingenuous. 

Arranged marriages is a nuanced subject, the people brought up in such societies think of it differently to you, your assumption that sex in such a situation is automatically rape if one or both the partners don't find each other attractive is naive. 

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if you think Tywin's plan is the best choice for a Stark restoration.

Not once did I say best. Are you incapable of reading other people's posts without inventing points not made?

 

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Yeah, I know. Harry is another marriage she doesn't want.

She actually does. She is actively trying to woo him in TWOW  sample chapters. 

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You're basically saying women have to go along with feudal marriages, and they can never resist.

Where have I said that?

People who constantly resort to "You're basically saying..." clearly have no interest in an actual discussion.

They can, and sometimes do, resist. But a reason that the vast majority don't is that all the many, many perks that come with being noble do come with some conditions. 

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When he has written women in the story, resisting. 

Yeah, at no point have I claimed women can't resist.

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Sansa doesnt have to do whatever Littlefinger or Tywin tell her.

Can you quote where I have said she does?

She could have chosen to refuse the marriage to Tyrion, she went along with it. She could have refused to have sex with Tyrion but she was willing to go through with it

The cold made her shiver, but she obeyed. Her eyes closed, and she waited. After a moment she heard the sound of her husband pulling off his boots, and the rustle of clothing as he undressed himself. When he hopped up on the bed and put his hand on her breast, Sansa could not help but shudder. She lay with her eyes closed, every muscle tense, dreading what might come next. Would he touch her again? Kiss her? Should she open her legs for him now? She did not know what was expected of her.

"Sansa." The hand was gone. "Open your eyes."

She had promised to obey; she opened her eyes.

I agree, Sansa and others can refuse but Sansa not having sex with Tyrion was down to him, not her. She was ready to do her marital duty. 

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If she doesnt want to consummate or marry, she can find ways to resist, just like Cersei can refuse sex with Robert if she wants. I'm sure Cersei would come up with some interesting ways to resist her own betrothal to Willasl.

Yes all things are possible. 

 

 

[norwaywolf123]

4 hours ago, Guest said:

I cant reply to the rest of your comments, I'm so grossed out by this entire idea that to benefit House Stark, Sansa needs to open her legs for Tyrion because Lord Tywin, her captor and murderer of her family, has decided its for the good of her House.

I doubt that Tywin wanted to wed Sansa to Tyrion for the sake of House Stark. More likely it is for the sake of House Lannister, and his own legacy. Assuming that Tyrion is Tywin's son biologically, even if that was the case Tyrion is Tywin's son legally.

Though if Eddard, Catelyn, Robb, Bran and Rickon was dead. With Jon in the Night's Watch and therefore legally(as long as laws and tradition is upheld) unable to inherit. Additionally with Arya being missing, her status(dead or alive) being unknown. Tywin would also know that fArya that he sent to the Boltons was really Jeyne Poole. How long will that lie hold? Could Tywin later reveal that lie if he wanted? With all this in mind, Sansa was essentially the only member left of House Stark that could inherit, besides distant relatives in other noble houses. If Sansa as the only member of House Stark married a Lannister, then a marriage alliance would be created. Even it is not really an alliance but a hostage situation.