AlaskanSandman Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Tracing the chronology of the North. Updated. No personal theories included. All information included for you to make your own opinion and share if you wish. This is merely an attempt to better collect the known information and put it into a rough time line. Starting with the King’s Beyond the Wall as a place marker of rough events. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152032-kings-beyond-the-wall-and-yes-bael-the-infamous-bard-updated-again Don’t worry about the rest of that thread other than the dating for the King’s Beyond the Wall. All that’s relevant here. Some main points to consider before constructing a time line, alternate dates and source for these dates. Alyssa Arryn 6000 years ago (Caitlyn), 4000 (True History) 2000 (Maester Denestan) The Coming of the Andals …. No Actual date given for Andal Invasion. Merely alluded to through Alyssa Arryn. Artys Arryn the Winged Knight of First Man blood, and Artys Arryn the Falcon Knight of Andal Blood are two different people possibly. Or, the same person, Andal through one parent and First Man through the other. Blackwood/ Bracken usurpation 1000 years (True History) or 500 years (Hoster Blackwood) before Andals arrived. House Bolton Bends the knee as Andal ships set sail. Upon landing, the Andals take 1000 years to reach the Iron Isles. The Wolf’s Den raised by Jon Stark before the coming of the Andals and son Rickard won the Neck from Marsh kings. War across the Waters between Starks and Arryn’s last for 1000 years. House Grey Iron end the Kings moot and rule for 1000 years. Last Kingsmoot 4000 (Maester Haereg’s History of the Iron Born) or 2000 (Maester Denestan in Questions) years ago. After 1000 years, the Andals reach the Iron Isles and end House Grey Iron, starting rule of House Hoare. Horned Lord invaded either 2000 or 1000 years ago, with Bael following hundreds of years later. Manderly’s receive the Wolf’s Den either in 789Bc, 600Bc, or 1300Bc. In 211 AC, Lady Rohanne Webber dated the flight of the Manderly's as having occured "a thousand years" ago.[13] Lord Godric Borrell defines the time period to "no more than nine hundred years" before 300 AC.[12] However, both Wylla Manderly, as well as maester Yandel date the arrival of the Manderlys in the north back a bit further, "a thousand years before the Conquest" Kings Jon Stark and son Rickard, Theon Stark, Rodrik Stark, Edrick Snowbeard and his Great Grandson Brandon Ice Eyes all after Wolf’s Den built. Kings Brandon the Burner, Brandon the Shipwright, and Harlon Stark all within hundreds of years to present time. *All times likely rough time frames and not exact dates. **Marked in Green is established from work of Maester Denestan **Marked in Blue based off True History and History of the Iron Born by Maester Haereg **Marked in Purple based off Caitlyn Stark. ***Marked generally in Red means event has alternate date given for it. ****Marked in Black means no alternate dates are given thus far. *****Too much to type in to try to give estimates for the War Across the Waters, especially with uncertainty of House Arryn between first men to Andals. Did the war begin with FM Arryns or Andal Arryns? Artys is pinned to 1000Bc by way of his crown, 700 years after Alyssa Arryn at least. So feel free to let me know your thoughts. 6700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History 6200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck. -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?) 5700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Caitlyn Stark. 4700Bc- Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule? 4700Bc- Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History 4200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals. - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck. -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?) 3700Bc- Time of Alyssa Arryn according to True History? Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies. Time of the Last Kings Moot according to Maester Haereg’s History of the Iron Born, Start of GreyIron rule? 2700Bc- King’s Beyond the Wall, Gendal and Gorne invade Westeros. Bracken Blackwood Usurpation? According to True History Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule? 2200Bc- Bracken-Blackwood usurpation? According to Hoster Blackwood - Wolf’s Den created by King Jon Stark to defend against raiders and slavers possibly from Valyria and Volantis. Before the coming of the Andals. - King Jon’s son, King Rickard Stark defeats the Marsh Kings winning the Neck. -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf vs Harrag Hoare and son Ravos the Raper?) 1700Bc- Inner Walls of Winterfell raised at this time, though some parts appear older. Indicating this is final form since last big attack. Time of Alyssa Arryn according to Maester Denestan Bear Island given to House Mormont by Rodrik Stark after Old Kracken Loron Greyjoy dies. Time of Last Kings Moot according to Maester Denestan, Start of GreyIron rule? The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later? Start of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns Start of House Justman as Andals reach Riverlands possibly cutting in through the river.? 1536Bc- Scouring of Lorath no more recent then this time. Death of Andal King Qarlon the Great. 1436Bc- Valyrian religious sect, Boash take Lorath. End of House Justman around this time, ended by Qhored Hoare? Last Kings Moot sometime shortly after Qhored? Old Town sacked 3 times that century by Samwell Dayne, Qhored Hoare and Gyles I Gardener? 1300Bc- Manderly’s Receive Wolf’s Den (according to Wylla Manderly) 1000Bc- Starry Sept in Old Town built after Andals reach and conquer Old Town. Glass Candles brought to Old Town from Valyria. Falcon Crown first worn by Ser Artys Arryn forged. 950Bc- Start of Rhoynish Wars with Valyria 789Bc- Manderly’s receive Wolf’s Den (according to Rohanne Webber) 700Bc- End of Rhoynish Wars, Nymeria’s 10,000 ships. House Karstark formed -Last Red King Rogar the Huntsman bends his Knee to Starks even as the Andal ships were setting sail. (Time of King Theon the Hungry Wolf?) (According to Theon Greyjoy) The Horned Lord passed the Wall with Magic with Bael following hundreds of years later? Andals arrive on Iron Isles ending House Grey Iron, Start of Hoare rule? Based off Denestan's work End of War across the Waters- Starks vs Arryns 600Bc- House Manderly Receive Wolf’s Den (According to Godric Borrel) 400Bc- Osric Stark L.C. of the Night’s Watch. 300Bc- Hardhome burned down Valyria take dragonstone Commanders of Nightfort and Snowgate go to war, killing L.C. who later got involved. House Frey take the Neck. 200Bc- Gates at the Wall sealed. Valyrian blades begin to enter Westeros 112Bc- Aenar the Exile flee’s to Dragonstone 100Bc- The Doom of Valyria 0- Aegon’s Conquest 226ac- Raymund Redbeard vs Lord Willam Stark 300Ac- Mance Rayder. Without resolving fully the War Across the Waters, it would appear to me that Maester Denestan’s work helps give a clearer picture of the time line than True History, Caitlyn, or Haereg’s History of the Iron born. Let me know your thoughts though on any of this and if you need quotes for any of these dates I can give them, just didn’t’ want to cluster the OP thread. If anything I hope this helps in your own work. I havn’t included links to other events in Westeros but some could roughly be made. Like between the Iron born activity versus Old Town and the Reach. (which I did a little in another thread). There is a couple hundred year span of wars between House Stark and the Barrow Kings at least, if not 1000 years. Along with other early conquest of House Stark including conquering the Wolfwood, apparently from House Blackwood. This could push Stark activity at least as far back as Gendal and Gorne’s date listed above. Which would align with House Blackwood popping up in the south and usurping the Brackens. Though no known links can be made between the gap in time from Joramun to Gendal and Gorne. I would guess at longest, maybe 4k years ago. Possibly 3700Bc? This too would give enough time for the Iron born activity in the Reach during their peak under the Hoare Kings in their early driftwood days. I did try to include some events outside of the North to give reference. Added time line hard to add with out muddling it up too much. Wolfs Den created by King Jon Stark 2000Bc? Son King Rickard Stark defeats Marsh kings. Last Red king Rogar the Huntsman bends knee as Andals set sail (To Theon or possibly his father?) King Theon Stark vs Argos Seven Star & Harrag Hoare and his son Ravos the Raper. 18-1700Bc? (Andals have reached the Vale and RiverLands- Start of House Justman and 300 years about of rule.) *Next three happen all within same century and sack Old Town King Samwell Dayne King Qhored Hoare vs House Justman, ends their line. Starting rule of House Teague sometime after. 1400bc? King Gyles Gardener I sells 3/4 population into slavery (Note slavery still practiced in Westeros, and Old Town not part of Reach yet) Scouring of Lorath should be happening around this time too. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- King Garland II Gardener weds daughter of Lymond Hightower winning Old Town into Reach. Lymond vs King Theon III Grey Joy. (1300Bc?) (Lymond revives slavery long enough to put Iron born to rebuilding Old Town, Meaning slavery has ended on main land Westeros) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Erik V Harlaw Gareth II Gardener vs son of Erik V Harlaw, Harron Harlaw. (within 50 yeas later) Gyles II Gardener vs Joron I Blacktyde --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last King's Moot, start of 1000 years of Grey Iron rule. Hoare rule should begin at least by 100Bc so that Hawyn, Halleck and Harren line up. Meaning Grey Iron's possibly began 1100Bc after taking the Andals almost 1000 years to reach the Iron Isles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 This is the Reach vs the Iron born so far as i can figure it for now. Garth the green God on Earth Garth Gardener Maris = Uthor Hightower Bloody Brandon Durran God’s Grief Grey King? (Bloodstone Emperor before, during this time. Huzhor Amai and Azor Ahai also?) Garth II Urrigon and Peremore Hightower (Maesters) Bran Builder Age of the Long Night Garth III first ironborn king Urras GreyIron? Regnar Drumm. Garth V Hammer of the Dornish Gwayne I The Gallant King Harrag Hoare vs King Theon Stark vs Andals Roughly 2000?? years ago King Samwell Dayne The Starfire (Andals in Riverlands & Vale?) Qhored the Cruel - kills Bernar II Justman, ending House. Gyles I the Woe *Samwell, Qhored, Glyes within a the same century sack Old Town. King Othos III Hightower builds walls of Old Town. -----------------------------End of Slavery on Main Land Westeros--------------------------------------------------- Mery III – Brings Arbor into the Reach Balon V Greyjoy Garland II- Wed Lymond Hightower’s daughter bringing Old Town into Reach. Erich V Harlaw Gareth II the Grim slain by Harron Harlaw son of Erich V Harlaw Within 50 years Joron I Blacktyde *Ironborn decline. Garth VI MorningStar – killed by Ironborn Urragon III GreyIron Urathon Goodbrother Gordon I Grey Eyes Torgon GreyIron Urragon IV GreyIron Urron Redhand -----------------------------End of Driftwood kings and start of GreyIron dynasty.-------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 The logical timeline actually emerges fairly well, in broad terms. Firstly the 6000 years ago Andal arrival is now discredited. The Andals were pushed out by the Valyrians who only arose 5000 years ago and took millenia to start impacting the Andals. The likely timeline is that the Andal migration began roughly 2500 years ago and finished about 1000 years later with the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles. So 2500 years ago is also the rough date for the Bolton subjugation by the Starks. 2000 years ago is when Mathos II Arryn lived and sailed off with 100 longships to start the War across the Water. Alyssa and Artys then by default lived between 2500 and 2000 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 15 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: The logical timeline actually emerges fairly well, in broad terms. Firstly the 6000 years ago Andal arrival is now discredited. The Andals were pushed out by the Valyrians who only arose 5000 years ago and took millenia to start impacting the Andals. The likely timeline is that the Andal migration began roughly 2500 years ago and finished about 1000 years later with the Andal conquest of the Iron Isles. So 2500 years ago is also the rough date for the Bolton subjugation by the Starks. 2000 years ago is when Mathos II Arryn lived and sailed of with 100 longships to start the War across the Water. Alyssa and Artys then by default lived between 2500 and 2000 years ago. While i do agree with this pretty much 100% , i tried to keep any opinion of mine out of it. Though i definitely should have included the rise of Valyria as it does seem to contradict the Andal tale. I mainly was trying to give the main differences in time and where the sources were coming from, and let others make of it what they will. That being said. Something about the Andals still aren't adding up for me. I can't help but feel like they have some sort of relationship to Valyria. The legend of the Winged Knight strikes me as a tale of dragons, and the sky cells strike me as dragon lairs. (Sorry im spewing tinfoil thoughts here). Sending that many dragons to kill Qarlon seems over kill, unless he had dragons too. Not that any of this contradicts the established time line, but it does make me wonder about waves of Andals coming at different times. Lann the Clever if anything else lends credit to the idea still of 6000 years ago, even though Valyria rose 5000 years ago. As Lann seem's to predate Valyria. The issue of Artys Arryn interest me as far as the War Across the Waters, and the difference in time between Alyssa and the Artys who wore the Falcon Crown. What is your personal opinion regarding Artys? Was he two men or one? How do you resolve the history and legends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 58 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Firstly the 6000 years ago Andal arrival is now discredited. The Andals were pushed out by the Valyrians who only arose 5000 years ago and took millenia to start impacting the Andals. Just to be clear, where do you get this from? Also, do you still think the Long Night was 8000 years ago then? Or was the Long Night not that long ago? Just curious where you see Valyria's rise, conflict with Ghis, and fall of Ghis? Also if your referring to some other thread where this was discussed. I personally dont think the Long Night was that long ago especially in the face of a lack of Northern activity to cover that many thousands of extra years, let alone other activity in Westeros. I havn't gotten there yet but i think there was a clue in the area near Zammettar. Which was abandoned 1000 years ago by Valyria in Nymeria's time. Meaning Valyria abandoned it roughly around 1700Bc. If im not mistaken (This is where i havn't had time to double check) the surrounding area wasn't held for very long by Valyria before being abandoned. Indicating that Zamettar wasn't held long either. This area taken from Ghis in their last wars together..... I believe this is a possible clue in dating Ghis to not that long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: Just to be clear, where do you get this from? Also, do you still think the Long Night was 8000 years ago then? Or was the Long Night not that long ago? Just curious where you see Valyria's rise, conflict with Ghis, and fall of Ghis? Also if your referring to some other thread where this was discussed. I personally dont think the Long Night was that long ago especially in the face of a lack of Northern activity to cover that many thousands of extra years, let alone other activity in Westeros. I havn't gotten there yet but i think there was a clue in the area near Zammettar. Which was abandoned 1000 years ago by Valyria in Nymeria's time. Meaning Valyria abandoned it roughly around 1700Bc. If im not mistaken (This is where i havn't had time to double check) the surrounding area wasn't held for very long by Valyria before being abandoned. Indicating that Zamettar wasn't held long either. This area taken from Ghis in their last wars together..... I believe this is a possible clue in dating Ghis to not that long ago. The overall timeline has apparently been adjusted by a previously unknown 2000 year discrepancy. First that weird Blackwood kid tells Jaime that there is a 2000 year difference between the True history and normal history. With the Andal arrival being either 4000 or 2000 years ago. And then the Worldbook indicates that the Long Night was either 8000 or 6000 years ago. Again, a previously unknown 2000 year discrepancy. So it seems to me that Martin addressed the criticism of his very long timeline by effectively crunching it all by 2000 years. So the First Men now arrived 10,000 years ago, not 12,000. The Long Night was 6,000 years ago, not 8,000. And the Andals arrival moved much more recently, to around 2,000 years ago, instead of what was apparently the previously accepted 4,000 year ago date. The 6,000 years ago Andal arrival legend appears to have disappeared from any credible in-universe history entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 What George is doing is not "retconning" the timeline, but retconning certainty of the timeline as expressed in AGoT when Luwin gave a pretty straightforward rundown of the history. I asked George why we saw this uncertainty appear in AFfC that did not exist in the novels prior, and he basically said it was because of fans like myself (heh) who were trying to piece together a timeline of the ancient history and were sending questions about it. So it's not that people were asking him "Hey, how can it make sense history stretches so far back? Fix it!" but more that they (we) were asking for more precise details to better understand the timeline, and he resolved his issue with that by saying in fact even the maesters don't know and argue about timelines, so don't bug him about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 1 hour ago, Ran said: What George is doing is not "retconning" the timeline, but retconning certainty of the timeline as expressed in AGoT when Luwin gave a pretty straightforward rundown of the history. I asked George why we saw this uncertainty appear in AFfC that did not exist in the novels prior, and he basically said it was because of fans like myself (heh) who were trying to piece together a timeline of the ancient history and were sending questions about it. So it's not that people were asking him "Hey, how can it make sense history stretches so far back? Fix it!" but more that they (we) were asking for more precise details to better understand the timeline, and he resolved his issue with that by saying in fact even the maesters don't know and argue about timelines, so don't bug him about it Well I accept that he told you that but it is still a bit jarring that Luwin used a pretty fixed 6000 years ago date for the Andal invasion and then when the Blackwood kid quotes the Maesters in a very informed manner, he doesn’t say they argue over whether it was 6000 or 4000 years ago, but instead doesn’t even mention Luwin’s 6000 years ago date, but instead uses two entirely new dates, portraying them as the most academically accepted theories held by the Citadel. So Luwin now suddenly looks like an idiot who was apparently not even aware what the two most prevailing historical timelines were. EDIT Not to mention that the academically accepted (apparently) Valyrian cause for the Andal migration makes the 6000BC date a non-starter. How is it that Luwin was apparently totally unaware of this. EDIT 2 I will note that I wasn’t aware that Luwin gave the 6000BC date until you mentioned it above. I always thought it was just from the glossary of the early books. Which one would assume was based on the prevailing consensus among the Maesters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Luwin provides a history that seems very fixed. The glossary as well, yes. The 6000 date is, off the top of my head, based on Alyssa Arryn being placed to 6000 years ago. In any case, I don't think George has abandoned any dates, he simply decided to make it a subject of much more debate in-world. We had Yandel follow certain notions, Gyldayn prefers others, and there are (as we know from the books and in particular the AFfC prologue) more views than those besides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Lost long post, summary below: Lady Forlorn, Valyrian steel in Andal Invasion, Fingers poor region, so taken in battle. Andals arrive Dorne after every other east coast region. Andals in Dorne when Rhoynar arrive. Myr, walled Andal town, is daughter of Valyria when Rhoynar leave Essos. Valyria has risen 5000 years ago. Rhoynish-Valyrian wars lasted several hundrer years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, Ran said: Luwin provides a history that seems very fixed. The glossary as well, yes. The 6000 date is, off the top of my head, based on Alyssa Arryn being placed to 6000 years ago. In any case, I don't think George has abandoned any dates, he simply decided to make it a subject of much more debate in-world. We had Yandel follow certain notions, Gyldayn prefers others, and there are (as we know from the books and in particular the AFfC prologue) more views than those besides. Which is probably understandable, I agree. The one difference is that in this world there are civilizations with written histories that seem to go back to Ancient Ghis - meaning the Long Night itself. One would assume that in the libraries of great cities like Qarth, , Meereen, Volantis and other assorted Free Cities with significant Valyrian heritage there would be fairly well documented histories with key events that can be cross referenced to build a realistic timeline of major historical markers. There should be no doubt about the dating of the Rhoynish Wars for example. Or the Ghiscari-Valyrian wars 5000 years ago. And I assume a lot happened in the 4000 years between those two events that was also documented. With that, the large scale movement of Andal tribes across the Narrow Sea from 2500 to 1500 years ago should be as well recorded as say the migrations and wars of the Germannic tribes in Europe 2000 years ago. If the Maesters have any access to ancient Essossi records, which I presume they absolutely must have to be worth their salt as academics and historians, they should have a much clearer picture of the timing of the Andal migration than “it happened somewhere between 6000 and 2000 years ago”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I suspect Essosi records that far back are pretty poor, and the Andals may not have mattered all that much to anyone who cared to write about them. We needed a Rosetta Stone to understand Egyptian, so who's to say that modern Ghiscari, or maesters, or anyone else can read clay tablets from 5000 years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 40 minutes ago, Ran said: I suspect Essosi records that far back are pretty poor, and the Andals may not have mattered all that much to anyone who cared to write about them. We needed a Rosetta Stone to understand Egyptian, so who's to say that modern Ghiscari, or maesters, or anyone else can read clay tablets from 5000 years ago? I want to ask, is Lady Forlorn in AI is a mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 3 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: I want to ask, is Lady Forlorn in AI is a mistake Lady Forlorn is not. The error was calling it Valyrian Steel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanian Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Ran said: Lady Forlorn is not. The error was calling it Valyrian Steel The ancient sword of Qyle Corbray and Robar Royce is different from Lyn Corbray's Lady Forlorn (described as dark "smoke-grey steel" and thus presumably Valyrian steel), right? Like the Starks with two swords named Ice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 6 hours ago, Ran said: I suspect Essosi records that far back are pretty poor, and the Andals may not have mattered all that much to anyone who cared to write about them. We needed a Rosetta Stone to understand Egyptian, so who's to say that modern Ghiscari, or maesters, or anyone else can read clay tablets from 5000 years ago? Valyria seems to be the Roman Empire (on steroids) of this world. And it goes back 5000 years. Their histories would have been written in Valyrian, which is understood to this day. And their colonies still exist in the form of the Free Cities, which presumably would have libraries of their own with own that survived the Doom. Similarly Rhoynish records would have perhaps gone back even further, allowing cross referencing. Also, the Doom only happened 400 years ago. The Citadel has existed for thousands of years and Maesters would have had millenia to source information from Valyrian historians. If the Valyrians were willing to sell Valyrian steel, I’m sure there would have been plenty of Valyrian merchants willing to peddle with historical information. From the Romans we know to the year the date of the Punic Wars (edit corection: google gives me the date of the Battle of Cannae down to the day, 2 August, over 2200 years ago), or details of the Germannic tribes 2000 years ago. Now imagine Valyria in all its splendour, with written records going back thousands of years into the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Valyria seems to be the Roman Empire (on steroids) of this world. And it goes back 5000 years. Their histories would have been written in Valyrian, which is understood to this day. And their colonies still exist in the form of the Free Cities, which presumably would have libraries of their own with own that survived the Doom. Similarly Rhoynish records would have perhaps gone back even further, allowing cross referencing. Also, the Doom only happened 400 years ago. The Citadel has existed for thousands of years and Maesters would have had millenia to source information from Valyrian historians. If the Valyrians were willing to sell Valyrian steel, I’m sure there would have been plenty of Valyrian merchants willing to peddle with historical information. From the Romans we know to the year the date of the Punic Wars 2200 years ago, or details of the Germannic tribes 2000 years ago. Now imagine Valyria in all its splendour, with written records going back thousands of years into the past. I think the more important point would be the knowledge held by England of those things in the time of the Dark Ages (Pre renaissance). The Roman records of England say, would only date back to their own records and not cover ancient England before Rome. Or the Stone Hedge. Roman records would also not likely document the Viking invasions of England. Now Rome would have records surrounding Egypt say, but only going back so far, and not likely covering Egypts real history. So what could England of the Dark Ages truely know of Egypt? What would they know of Rome? Probably the Romulus and Remus tale. Probably nothing about the Etruscans. When would Rome list the War of Troy though? Would it match when Greece said it was? Would it match what Turkey says it was, or Istanbul? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 7 hours ago, Ran said: Luwin provides a history that seems very fixed. The glossary as well, yes. The 6000 date is, off the top of my head, based on Alyssa Arryn being placed to 6000 years ago. In any case, I don't think George has abandoned any dates, he simply decided to make it a subject of much more debate in-world. We had Yandel follow certain notions, Gyldayn prefers others, and there are (as we know from the books and in particular the AFfC prologue) more views than those besides. Yes, the only dating i could find in the Novels for the Andal arrival comes from Alyssa Arryn being dated to 6000 years ago by Caitlyn . So it appears every one assumed from there. I mentioned above the issue of Artys and his legend being of possibly two different people. One of Fm blood and the other of Andal blood. Is the Falcon Knight before or after Alyssa? is the Winged Knight? etc. Not sure if you can give any added info there. Is Alyssa Arryn an Andal or FM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 25, 2018 Share Posted October 25, 2018 1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said: I think the more important point would be the knowledge held by England of those things in the time of the Dark Ages (Pre renaissance). The Roman records of England say, would only date back to their own records and not cover ancient England before Rome. Or the Stone Hedge. Roman records would also not likely document the Viking invasions of England. Now Rome would have records surrounding Egypt say, but only going back so far, and not likely covering Egypts real history. So what could England of the Dark Ages truely know of Egypt? What would they know of Rome? Probably the Romulus and Remus tale. Probably nothing about the Etruscans. When would Rome list the War of Troy though? Would it match when Greece said it was? Would it match what Turkey says it was, or Istanbul? Well, a key difference is that Westeros has a “University” going back thousands of years. An dedicated repository of knowledge that gathered records from whatever sources were available going back pretty much to since there was writing. And in Valyria, Rhoyne, Ghis etc there has been writing for 5000 years or more. We know the Valyrians traded with Oldtown for millenia, and similarly if they were the ones exerting pressure on the Andals, there would be a Tacitus - probably multiple Tacitus’s, who would have recorded when this was taking place. There would be records of major changes that occurred in those areas, and an institution like the Citadel would surely have been keenly interested in obtaining those records in the centuries and millenia preceding the Doom. And thereafter as well, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskanSandman Posted October 25, 2018 Author Share Posted October 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Well, a key difference is that Westeros has a “University” going back thousands of years. An dedicated repository of knowledge that gathered records from whatever sources were available going back pretty much to since there was writing. And in Valyria, Rhoyne, Ghis etc there has been writing for 5000 years or more. We know the Valyrians traded with Oldtown for millenia, and similarly if they were the ones exerting pressure on the Andals, there would be a Tacitus - probably multiple Tacitus’s, who would have recorded when this was taking place. There would be records of major changes that occurred in those areas, and an institution like the Citadel would surely have been keenly interested in obtaining those records in the centuries and millenia preceding the Doom. And thereafter as well, of course. Well the Maesters are definitely an interesting problem. They should date back to the Fm through Uthor's son's, and should thus, be able to read and understand the runes of the Fm. Upon the Andal arrival and learning their new script, should have translated their accounts over into the new tongue. Take the bible and many translations of it. Something that makes me wonder about their records is the Iron born take over of Old Town, and the Andal conquest of Old Town. Though the Andal take over is said to have been peaceably, i do wonder about the survival of old records. The Iron born take over should be more brutal. The Citadel has alot of precious metal at the least, let alone gold gained through taxes in Old Town and revenues from their services being enlisted. Let alone any Iron Born feelings towards the oldest part of the Citadel which was once a pirate stronghold. Assuming either take over caused a loss of records, there should still theoretically be some as you mention. Due to the Maesters seeming to have relations with Valyria, even receiving Glass Candles from them some how. On top of Maesters being known to go to Valyria in search of deeper answers to their mysteries, like the origins of the Hightower base. Now, what records the Valyrians allowed the Maesters access to is of open question. When probing the Vatican's records, you wont get very far. Especially since you have to know what you are asking for, and are not allowed to free roam their records. So what the Valyrian's knew, may not have been accessible to the maesters. Another issue of record keeping in real life becomes evolution of language. Old English does not resemble modern English for instance, and most of us would not be able to read these records, even if we had access to them. So the Valyrians may have records that even touch upon Rhoynish or Andal issues, or Ghis, but the Maesters have many hurdles possibly in getting to them, and understanding them. The Valyrian language is different than that of Westeros today. Perhaps the Fm language was close but we dont know. If the Maesters lost their old tongue then this would add to the problem. High born Valyrians such as Rhaegar and Daenerys would learn High Valyrian, but would Maesters? If another country asked the U.S. for records surrounding the death of J.F.K., how much info do you think the U.s. would turn over regarding the truth. This is another issue that may arise. The Maesters may only know what the Valyrians allow them to know and want them to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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