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AlaskanSandman

Time comparison (Mostly for the North) Updated.

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3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The maesters sift through stuff like that as they do with the two Artys Arryns, but without good historical information it should be very difficult to get to the bottom of what actually happened - which is why the Battle of the Seven Stars is told essentially as a retelling of fable, containing more legend than truth.

I agree with this if we look only to history. If we look to other clues though, things appear different. 
Take the Andals. They built better than the first men, bringing round towers with them. Yet, where in Essos are these structures? Pentos and Braavos have square buildings. Qarlon the Great only built in wood and it was a ringfort similar to that of the First Men or Aegon's fort. Why the Maesters make no such comparison's is odd imo. Those sky cells seem very unique and out of place and make me think of dragon lairs. The legend of the Winged Knight fighting the Griffin King upon the Giant's Lance (The very spot the Eyrie is built). Should all tell us something is wrong with the picture the Maesters are telling. Pentos should be mostly Andal, why square buildings and a political structure not even close to Westeros? Where are the Knights and Tourney's?

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6 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Option A.

Maybe. Though GRRM stresses the order of his chapters. It's something he works hard at and has to cross work against his editors and such. So maybe.

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19 hours ago, Ran said:

I think some things may have a bearing on the plot, but a feature George added after the third novel in the series -- the uncertainty of ancient history -- at a time where he already knew the ending of the series is not something that is in itself important, especially since he told me that he did that because of people like me who kept trying to get more precise details. ;) 

Lots of the ancient history George generated in TWoIaF was generated because it was fun, not because it was necessary. As an example, I'd categorize the details of Yi Ti and the Dawn Empire and the oily black stone as the same thing -- fun stuff, not necessary stuff.

This same history is telling me that Alysanne Targaryen slept with a Mormont (Maege got Valyrian some how), but also a Stark (As they are our main characters) at Queen's Crown. So im waiting to see just how crazy i am lol Our good Queen should be near Lord Allerics son by his Mormont wife, being at the Wall. Which is right near Queen's Crown. 

This same history is telling me this is happening for a reason of sorts. Bael wasn't who the Queen was meeting up with and predates her, which means history should be telling us something else as Bael's name is spelled in the Valyrian fashion. 

Slavery is a big point in the Novels and seems to have a history in Westeros as Lord Lymond reinstates it to make the Iron born rebuild Old Town at the same time they are bending the knee to the Reach. Who if im understanding the history right, should already be getting hit by the Andals. This is also after the Iron born have had their peak and are now in decline. Which means Qhored already faced Theon, and Theon has already attacked the Andals.

So, as the Fm were deep into slavery pre-andals, and worshiped the Old Gods, the CotF should not all be gone yet from the south. This is an interesting picture of Westeros. 

 

Edit- Just to be clear, i dont think time discrepancies in and of them selves are important either. Even if we accept the initial time line as told, it still doesnt' explain why Braavos and Pentos have square buildings, no kings, no tourneys, or no knights. 

Edited by AlaskanSandman

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19 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Won't quote it as I'm on phone but Godric Borrel says to Davos it was 2000 years ago, which is not necessarily an exact 2000 but can be something close to that. He also says it lasted a thousand years but it's probably as a figure of speech, though we do know it lasted for several generations and Starks took the islands a dozen times.

 

The fact we learn about the history of the bite in several Davos chapters following each other and there's no contradiction in dates, unlike other dates and despite getting it from both of the two opposing sides should mean it's correct. 

There's also another tidbit of informarion given to us by Godric Borrel and also confirmed somewhat by Dick Crabb.

Borrrel's had "the mark" for five thousand years, which is probably when their house started as we see houses retain their features. Ser Clarence Crabb fought squishers, creatures whose description is an over exaggeration of Godric Borrell.

So if 5000 years ago(roughly that is) was when house Borrell was founded, then Andals started to arrive after that. As Theon was the first Stark king to Face Andals and he also faced Ironman and Sisterman and it took Andals a thousand years to reach II and the Worthless war to take the Sisters, these two certainly existed before Andals.

Also Wolf's Den was built before the Andals. It was taken by Sisterman reavers once, and not the "Falcons", meaning Sisterman were free then.

So; 5000 years ago Andals haven't arrived yet, this is also the time Valyria has just started to rise so it makes much sense there is nothing driving them. And 2000 years ago Kingdom of Mountain and Vale is already established with most of it's current territory and Boltons are still flayers. Sometime inbetween Andals started crossing the sea and they also take their chances with the North, Boltons bend their knee to Starks around this time likely because of  Andals. Theon repels them, fights against the Sisterman and Ironman. 

We don't know how long it took the Arryns to include the sisters after they founded their kingdom, though it was founded more than 2000 years ago but less than 5000 years ago.

AI started somewhere between these two marks.

 

Also using Alyssa Arryn to determine could mislead us; she was probably an Arryn indeed but the false 6000 years "Andal nobles" believe possibly comes from the wrong belief Andals arrived 6000 years ago. So she probably was one of the first few generations of Arryns.

As far as Alyssa, Denestan only places her 2000 years ago. Which would line up with the Aryns arriving and such, but not with the Artys Arryn who wore the Falcon Crown created 1000Bc. 

Which is why i tend to wonder if Alyssa was part of the Fm Arryns after the first Artys the Winged Knight. The male line went dead possibly but the female line went on or vice versa, then mingled with the Andals to solidify power against their rivals. Resulting in the 2nd Artys, the Falcon Knight. 

Speculation of course.

13 hours ago, Nittanian said:

That is what Godric says.

 

Just with Oldtown, for instance, the city was sacked by Qhored the Cruel, Samwell the Starfire, and Gyles the Woe, so the Citadel's records might have been disrupted during that century. Otho II subsequently built strong walls to protect the city, but George could always write about later times when Oldtown was threatened. We also know very little about the Citadel's history; maybe there were doctrinal disputes between factions of maesters, maybe maesters came into conflict with the Faith at the Starry Sept, etc. 

Ill add the War across the Waters into the Time thread. 

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Which is why i tend to wonder if Alyssa was part of the Fm Arryns after the first Artys the Winged Knight.

There were no first men Arryns though. Any Arryn in a FM only era is just some other character branded as an Arryn later on. We are explicitly told that though the overall plot stays the same, details of songs and stories change. A king rides a horse that is so fast it's almost flying? over time horse becomes a flying creature indeed; it's a hawk now. This FM king is in the Vale? He must be an Arryn as they are the kings there. This king is an Arryn? He can't ride a hawk, it must be a falcon as that is their sigil.

It may also be that the tale leaves the vale, get some changes to suit the new region it went and when it eventually circles back into vale, again it gets changed  accordingly. We get other such stuff too, legend of Azor Ahai which comes from 5000 years old Asshai scripts is obviously the legend of the Last Hero from the long night that was 8000 years ago. It traveled as far as Asshai, and though kept it's core intact, got many changes to it's details and even formed a religion around it and not only has it circled back to westeros after several milennia, but somehow it's religion is an enemy of the Last Hero's religion as well.

 

It's the same in real world, I'll demonstrate it with three words;

the word pijama in modern turkish came from the french pyjama, which in turn came from the english pyjama, which itself came from the origin of the word, persian paijama. Turks and persians are neighbours and yet you can see the long road the word took to came into use.

There are many cafes in turkey, places where you can drink kahve(coffee in turkish) there are also kahvehanes(coffee houses), again places you can drink coffee though the two are much different.  The word cafe came to turkish from either english, or more likely, french. Though the word cafe itself is derived from coffee, which in turn came from turkish kahve and the origin of the kahve is arabic qahwa. Again, you can see the journey of the word.

Finally, there's a name "bahadır", which roughly means victorious and/or brave warrior, the word came from persian, without any changes if I'm not mistaken, but  persians in turn took it from the origin of it, the turkic word Bagatur, which has several meanings; 1. Brave 2. Lad 3. Hero

Again you can see the word's journey. 

 

And these are just single words, think on how entire stories could change travelling over time and places.

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9 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

We get other such stuff too, legend of Azor Ahai which comes from 5000 years old Asshai scripts is obviously the legend of the Last Hero from the long night that was 8000 years ago.

That's opinion though and not fact. We dont know that they are about the same person. If it is, then stabbing Nissa to make a sword that snapped in the cold really sucks.

Also, there is no evidence that The Winged Knight and Falcon Knight tales ever traveled outside of the Vale. So we are not speaking of a legend traversing great distances. Brienne didn't know the tale of Ol CrackBones, and Nibble Dick didn't know about Galladon. Yet these regions are close to each other.

So to me, the more logical answer is either the tales are about the same man and mixed up. Or they are about two different men, and mixed up.

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On 10/26/2018 at 12:28 AM, Ran said:

I think some things may have a bearing on the plot, but a feature George added after the third novel in the series -- the uncertainty of ancient history -- at a time where he already knew the ending of the series is not something that is in itself important, especially since he told me that he did that because of people like me who kept trying to get more precise details. ;) 

Lots of the ancient history George generated in TWoIaF was generated because it was fun, not because it was necessary. As an example, I'd categorize the details of Yi Ti and the Dawn Empire and the oily black stone as the same thing -- fun stuff, not necessary stuff.

So not sure if im allowed to ask here, but kind of relevant.

How serious should i take this new "Adaptation"??? I just find it very odd that they are doing an "adaption" of a time we the readers on the forum are repeatedly told is not to be cleared up and too buried in myth and legend to build any time conclusions of then or anything after. What's more is they have Naomi Watts as the lead Character. Lannister? Valyrian? Andal? Later two shouldn't be there. Even though Luwen tells us that the Andals broke the Pact, we are led to believe the Andals came long after the Long Night and as such, was not what caused the Long Night. How the Lannisters would have blonde back then strikes me as odd too. 

Again, not sure how much of this im allowed to talk about here, i didn't see a thread for this yet as its not even out yet, but again, seemed interesting to me at the least on whether or not i should bother watching it. 

 

Seems interesting though that my time line here seems to somewhat hint at the Andals coming sometime during the Age of Heroes. At least by Qhored's time and Theon Stark, but those characters line up roughly to what should be those kings that Serwyn served.

Quote

The World of Ice and Fire - The Reach: The Gardener Kings

 
In those centuries of trial and tumult, the Reach produced many a fearless warrior. From that day to this, the singers have celebrated the deeds of knights like Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Davos the Dragonslayer, Roland of the Horn, and the Knight Without Armor—and the legendary kings who led them, among them Garth V (Hammer of the Dornish), Gwayne I (the Gallant), Gyles I (the Woe), Gareth II (the Grim), Garth VI (the Morningstar), and Gordan I (Grey-Eyes).
 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Age of Heroes

And besides the legendary kings and the hundreds of kingdoms from which the Seven Kingdoms were born, stories of such as Symeon Star-Eyes, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and other heroes have become fodder for septons and singers alike. Did such heroes once exist? It may be so. But when the singers number Serwyn of the Mirror Shield as one of the Kingsguard—an institution that was only formed during the reign of Aegon the Conqueror—we can see why it is that few of these tales can ever be trusted.
 

A Game of Thrones - Sansa IV

She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother's queen.

 

A Clash of Kings - Prologue

"Follies? I call them treasons." Stannis turned back to his wife. "My brother is young and strong, and he has a vast host around him, and these rainbow knights of his."
 

The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: The Long Night

Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients—though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands—
 
 
 
 

Wolfs Den created by King Jon Stark 2000Bc?

       Son King Rickard Stark defeats Marsh kings. 

Last Red king Rogar the Huntsman bends knee as Andals set sail (To Theon or possibly his father?) 
King Theon Stark vs Argos Seven Star & Harrag Hoare and his son Ravos the Raper. 18-1700Bc?

(Andals have reached the Vale and RiverLands- Start of House Justman and 300 years about of rule.)

*Next three happen all within same century and sack Old Town

King Samwell Dayne

King Qhored Hoare vs House Justman, ends their line. Starting rule of House Teague sometime after. 1400bc? 

King Gyles Gardener I  sells 3/4 population into slavery (Note slavery still practiced in Westeros, and Old Town not part of Reach yet)                                                             Scouring of Lorath should be happening around this time too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

King Garland II Gardener weds daughter of Lymond Hightower winning Old Town into Reach. Lymond vs King Theon III Grey Joy. (1300Bc?)

               (Lymond revives slavery long enough to put Iron born to rebuilding Old Town, Meaning slavery has ended on main land Westeros)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                                                                                                                           Erik V Harlaw

Gareth II Gardener                                                           vs           son of Erik V Harlaw, Harron Harlaw.                 

                                 (within 50 yeas later)

Gyles II Gardener                                                               vs                                             Joron I Blacktyde        

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Note Gareth the Grim Gardener II of his name.
 
I mean, Serwyn couldn't have served to a Valyrian, not Targaryen King, in House Gardener in their Kings Guard, the Rainbow Knights? Cause im made to believe these histories aren't actually telling us something...
 
I am a lil bummed though as no one else seems to be on board any ways to discuss when actually the Long Night is falling in accordance to these historical figures and how long was this Long Night.
 
How about you though, will you be watching this new "adaptation"?
Edited by AlaskanSandman

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4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 So not sure if im allowed to ask here, but kind of relevant.

How serious should i take this new "Adaptation"??? I just find it very odd that they are doing an "adaption" of a time we the readers on the forum are repeatedly told is not to be cleared up and too buried in myth and legend to build any time conclusions of then or anything after. What's more is they have Naomi Watts as the lead Character. Lannister? Valyrian? Andal? Later two shouldn't be there. Even though Luwen tells us that the Andals broke the Pact, we are led to believe the Andals came long after the Long Night and as such, was not what caused the Long Night. How the Lannisters would have blonde back then strikes me as odd too. 

 

Who said she's gonna be blonde in the show? We still know nothing.

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1 minute ago, Blooddragon said:

Who said she's gonna be blonde in the show? We still know nothing.

(Stares in Jon Snow stare) 

jk haha No we dont, she could very well be brunette or redhead for the show. She does look good brunette too. 

Spoiler

 

As the synopsis reads:

"Taking place thousands of years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the world's descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. And only one thing is for sure: from the horrifying secrets of Westeros' history to the true origin of the white walkers, the mysteries of the East to the Starks of legend … it's not the story we think we know.”

 

That Age of Heroes in which Lann the Clever and his Golden hair, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield serving Garderner kings that are listed, running up into the Andal conquest. Showing the Age of Heroes ran into the Andal Invasion.  I think it's till open that it can happen. Not the story we think we know

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On 10/26/2018 at 12:28 AM, Ran said:

I think some things may have a bearing on the plot, but a feature George added after the third novel in the series -- the uncertainty of ancient history -- at a time where he already knew the ending of the series is not something that is in itself important, especially since he told me that he did that because of people like me who kept trying to get more precise details. ;) 

Lots of the ancient history George generated in TWoIaF was generated because it was fun, not because it was necessary. As an example, I'd categorize the details of Yi Ti and the Dawn Empire and the oily black stone as the same thing -- fun stuff, not necessary stuff.

Well thank you for the back up about Yi Ti and the Dawn Empire. When I first realized what was happening with Yi Ti, I couldn't quite believe it, and spent days thinking I must be wrong for sure because no one was posting about it.  I've still never seen anyone post about it except myself.  I'm not saying more here except "to go west you must go east". When I had that little puzzle down, I started trying to wrap my head around maps and all kinds of things - thanks for that fruitless labour!  The problem is when you realize there are puzzles you keep looking for more.  I felt like my dog: every day when I leave for work I hide a few treats around the house cause I know it will keep her busy for hours looking even if she finds them in the first few minutes.  

I was my dog :(

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27 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Well thank you for the back up about Yi Ti and the Dawn Empire. When I first realized what was happening with Yi Ti, I couldn't quite believe it, and spent days thinking I must be wrong for sure because no one was posting about it.  I've still never seen anyone post about it except myself.  I'm not saying more here except "to go west you must go east". When I had that little puzzle down, I started trying to wrap my head around maps and all kinds of things - thanks for that fruitless labour!  The problem is when you realize there are puzzles you keep looking for more.  I felt like my dog: every day when I leave for work I hide a few treats around the house cause I know it will keep her busy for hours looking even if she finds them in the first few minutes.  

I was my dog :(

Lmao, yea i went around on that section trying to fit it in too hahah i eventually just gave up and focused on the main books now hahaha especially the first 3

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16 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

(Stares in Jon Snow stare) 

jk haha No we dont, she could very well be brunette or redhead for the show. She does look good brunette too. 

  Hide contents

 

As the synopsis reads:

"Taking place thousands of years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the world's descent from the golden Age of Heroes into its darkest hour. And only one thing is for sure: from the horrifying secrets of Westeros' history to the true origin of the white walkers, the mysteries of the East to the Starks of legend … it's not the story we think we know.”

 

That Age of Heroes in which Lann the Clever and his Golden hair, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield serving Garderner kings that are listed, running up into the Andal conquest. Showing the Age of Heroes ran into the Andal Invasion.  I think it's till open that it can happen. Not the story we think we know

The version I read said she was a socialite! (At first I thought it said socialist but considered that just as unlikely).  A socialite in the Age of Heroes when everyone ate with their fingers and personal hygiene was likely a rumour not a fact lol. That's what might surprise us - beaux and flirts of high society that disappeared without a trace because of the Long Night.  It would certainly not be the story I think it was.

Ah, AlaskanSandman, I do feel for you regarding the timelines.  For myself, I tend to concentrate on the archeology - eg the material record like fused stone as proof of pre-Valyrian dragon riders- that's seeded here and there, or when we're told there is back up in the runic record or something, like a Dustin being a king of the First Men. Because I don't think you seed that stuff for it to be ignored.  But maybe I'm wrong.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

The version I read said she was a socialite! (At first I thought it said socialist but considered that just as unlikely).  A socialite in the Age of Heroes when everyone ate with their fingers and personal hygiene was likely a rumour not a fact lol. That's what might surprise us - beaux and flirts of high society that disappeared without a trace because of the Long Night.  It would certainly not be the story I think it was.

Ah, AlaskanSandman, I do feel for you regarding the timelines.  For myself, I tend to concentrate on the archeology - eg the material record like fused stone as proof of pre-Valyrian dragon riders- that's seeded here and there, or when we're told there is back up in the runic record or something, like a Dustin being a king of the First Men. Because I don't think you seed that stuff for it to be ignored.  But maybe I'm wrong.

Social structures shouldn't be that different from Pre Long Night till now. If they could build the Hightower, Winterfell, Pyke, Storm's End, or the like, then they obviously had attained the level of tech shown during the middle ages. Even if it was still the bronze age, the Roman's did quite well and built amazing works, and also had plenty of socialites. So that wouldn't surprise me at all that she was a socialite. The fact that 8000 years has transpired from then to now and at best, they've reached the steel age is sad. It took mankind's ingenuity little time comparatively to make the jump from Bronze to Steel. Let alone skipping right through that in a breeze to reach the industrial revolution.  

If the Fm were building things such pyramids and adobe huts or something then i may be more inclined to believe they had a more primitive social structure and tech. Yet we're told that the tech was better then with fused stone structures and round towers, and magic swords that even if steel, should have stuck around. Instead we get a huge regression. 8000 years worth, that's just nuts. 
 

And it's not a full run down of the history thats needed by any means. Its merely an understanding in the contradiction that the Andals broke the Pact, yet the Others are attacking during peace time. If the Others existed before all of this, then they would be enemies with the Cotf and have wiped them out, or, they are allies. Yet if that was the case, the poor giants would be gone. So none of these are the case. The Others came when they came cause they were created and sent then. So an explanation for this i feel is justifiably desired haha 

If i got an answer on how the Fm broke the pact and drove the children off, then i would be equally as happy. Though i would be curious why Luwen would bother blaming the Andals for driving off the Children and breaking the pact. 

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2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Social structures shouldn't be that different from Pre Long Night till now. If they could build the Hightower, Winterfell, Pyke, Storm's End, or the like, then they obviously had attained the level of tech shown during the middle ages. Even if it was still the bronze age, the Roman's did quite well and built amazing works, and also had plenty of socialites. So that wouldn't surprise me at all that she was a socialite. The fact that 8000 years has transpired from then to now and at best, they've reached the steel age is sad. It took mankind's ingenuity little time comparatively to make the jump from Bronze to Steel. Let alone skipping right through that in a breeze to reach the industrial revolution.  

If the Fm were building things such pyramids and adobe huts or something then i may be more inclined to believe they had a more primitive social structure and tech. Yet we're told that the tech was better then with fused stone structures and round towers, and magic swords that even if steel, should have stuck around. Instead we get a huge regression. 8000 years worth, that's just nuts. 
 

And it's not a full run down of the history thats needed by any means. Its merely an understanding in the contradiction that the Andals broke the Pact, yet the Others are attacking during peace time. If the Others existed before all of this, then they would be enemies with the Cotf and have wiped them out, or, they are allies. Yet if that was the case, the poor giants would be gone. So none of these are the case. The Others came when they came cause they were created and sent then. So an explanation for this i feel is justifiably desired haha 

If i got an answer on how the Fm broke the pact and drove the children off, then i would be equally as happy. Though i would be curious why Luwen would bother blaming the Andals for driving off the Children and breaking the pact. 

I just ignore a lot of the digressions.  Everything points to the Andals breaking the pact, I agree, because we don't get details on what else was going on.  I, for instance, think there was a pact, but only with one wave of First Men.  Another wave of fire people came when Asshai had it's disaster, and the Others were created to stop them. At the same time the Arm was broken to prevent any more of them from coming and to divide them from their source of power on Essos. But that's my imagination filling in gaps of thousands of years.  I just think something like this likely, or why break the Arm when the First Men were already well-established, or create Others after the Pact?

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1 minute ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I just ignore a lot of the digressions.  Everything points to the Andals breaking the pact, I agree, because we don't get details on what else was going on.  I, for instance, think there was a pact, but only with one wave of First Men.  Another wave of fire people came when Asshai had it's disaster, and the Others were created to stop them. At the same time the Arm was broken to prevent any more of them from coming and to divide them from their source of power on Essos. But that's my imagination filling in gaps of thousands of years.  I just think something like this likely, or why break the Arm when the First Men were already well-established, or create Others after the Pact?

Well, there is also the issue of boats. The Fm supposedly didn't build boats, yet Shield Island, Three Sisters, Iron Islands, Bear Islands, and more are all populated and have been since as far back as you look at the histories.  The Hightowers have been on Battle Isle possibly since before the first men and they had driven pirates from what became the Citadel.  

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, there is also the issue of boats. The Fm supposedly didn't build boats, yet Shield Island, Three Sisters, Iron Islands, Bear Islands, and more are all populated and have been since as far back as you look at the histories.  The Hightowers have been on Battle Isle possibly since before the first men and they had driven pirates from what became the Citadel.  

Yes but most of those don't have far distances between.  Lots of local islands tend to get populated by peoples that don't have expertise in longer voyages.  As well, don't forget there was a major inundation with the Arm breaking so the coastlines swamped and some of those islands might well have been part of the mainland.

Anyway, on a personal note, I felt your absence on the forums for a while though maybe you were just posting in threads I wasn't.  If not, welcome back! :)

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8 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

I just ignore a lot of the digressions.  Everything points to the Andals breaking the pact, I agree, because we don't get details on what else was going on.  I, for instance, think there was a pact, but only with one wave of First Men.  Another wave of fire people came when Asshai had it's disaster, and the Others were created to stop them. At the same time the Arm was broken to prevent any more of them from coming and to divide them from their source of power on Essos. But that's my imagination filling in gaps of thousands of years.  I just think something like this likely, or why break the Arm when the First Men were already well-established, or create Others after the Pact?

I could bend my mind to just the Fm doing this all, coming in a first wave across the arm, learning of the children and their magic, having dialogue back with people from home base, arm of Dorne getting smashed and cut off from home base, people from home base attack trees(which are also is Essos so why is this a Westerosi war????, build ships, and attack Westeros. 

Yet, why would Luwen and Yandel link the Andals to breaking the pact? Something still doesnt add up.

A common thing when being fed a logical sounding lie, is to question your own self, and begin to doubt your suspicions, then you bend logic and reason to fit their story, so now every thing seems worked out in your mind.

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2 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes but most of those don't have far distances between.  Lots of local islands tend to get populated by peoples that don't have expertise in longer voyages.  As well, don't forget there was a major inundation with the Arm breaking so the coastlines swamped and some of those islands might well have been part of the mainland.

Anyway, on a personal note, I felt your absence on the forums for a while though maybe you were just posting in threads I wasn't.  If not, welcome back! :)

Hahaha thank you :) i dip in and out every so often. Sometimes it gets a lil too toxic trying to rip open the book with truthers bashing you constantly. Which i understand their views, because like i said, thats what the books more or less tell us and want us to believe. Just becomes a lil arduous. I also try to use the time to re-evaluate how im looking at the books or how im covering topics or what im covering. (That's when i came to Alysanne cheating at Queen's Crown. Though i initially though Bael based on Gael being 13th child and Bael's own legend. After some discussion and further research, i found evidence for Bael, but pre-Targaryen times. Leaving open who Alysanne was hooking up with. blah blah) I try to look at things like we are being lied to constantly though hahah and have taken to being suspicious of certain things (13). The time line i've just tried to work out to first years ago now, show that the Andals didnt' come that long ago, and only came 2000 years ago. That's general thought now based on what ever reasons (Lots of people have discussed this other than me on other forums and such too), but now that that is more generally excepted, im trying to work at the other things to be found in that time line, like slavery, and the age of heroes running up till pretty recent. Something going on beyond that wall too that im trying to figure out but idk how much things tie to events in the south. Im also one of the few not accepting the general story, so it makes asking these questions tough hahah which i know some have proven to not be true, but thats the case when investigating imo. 

All and all though, i always come back ;) 

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26 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Yes but most of those don't have far distances between.  Lots of local islands tend to get populated by peoples that don't have expertise in longer voyages.  As well, don't forget there was a major inundation with the Arm breaking so the coastlines swamped and some of those islands might well have been part of the mainland.

Sorry, forgot to respond to this hahah

Agreed. Though there were many separate but close islands such as the bloodstone islands of which to cross. Like the Aleutians in Alaska. Still typically need boats though, even if lil tiny ones haha. 

Also, Hightowers drove off Pirates. Can't be pirating with out a boat, ask Captain Jack. 

Though the timing of the Breaking in accordance to when the Grey King and sailors are popping up is interesting to me. 

Also seems odd that no one from Westeros had established trade with Essos prior to the Andals. Trade is life, and the Silk roads are very old. Even the Vikings had goods from deep in asia minor

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1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Sorry, forgot to respond to this hahah

Agreed. Though there were many separate but close islands such as the bloodstone islands of which to cross. Like the Aleutians in Alaska. Still typically need boats though, even if lil tiny ones haha. 

Also, Hightowers drove off Pirates. Can't be pirating with out a boat, ask Captain Jack. 

Though the timing of the Breaking in accordance to when the Grey King and sailors are popping up is interesting to me. 

Also seems odd that no one from Westeros had established trade with Essos prior to the Andals. Trade is life, and the Silk roads are very old. Even the Vikings had goods from deep in asia minor

Hightowers are a breed apart.  I do agree with you there.  They were the first kings in Westeros, but of pirates and shipwrecked sailors and small communities that arose thereof. (I know this, btw, from the Yi Ti section of WoiaF!)

There is a great deal of difference between journeying on a small boat or a raft to visible or known islands, and understanding seacraft and primitive navigation.  I did a lot of work on Polynesian archeology and their seacraft and the distances they travelled were amazing!

I think it might have been part of the pact, honestly, that there was little trade with Essos.  The Children wanted Westeros isolated from Essos, and who could blame them?  They'd been wiped out there.  And Essos itself seems like a dry, soulless place to me, with its blighted cities, ruins, ghost grass, shrunken seas and slavery.

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