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AlaskanSandman

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A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"He knows. So do I." Dany remembered the horror she had felt when she had seen the Plaza of Punishment in Astapor. I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice.
"Your Grace," said Missandei, "Ghiscari inter their honored dead in crypts below their manses. If you would boil the bones clean and return them to their kin, it would be a kindness."

 

 
 
Who else do we know that does this? Better yet, who doesn't do this???
 
Well, the Wildlings don't, they burn their dead. The Tully's of Riverrun don't, they burn their dead upon the river. The Dothraki dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre. The Targaryen's dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre.  
 
The Starks and Houses that claim Fm decent bury their dead (Even though the Free Folk do not, though there are ancient graves beyond the Wall). The Faith of the Seven also bury their dead. Often these dead are buried beneath the Mance and it's weirwood tree. Though House Lannister is the only known Andal House we have seen with a weirwood.
 
Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days? Did Valyria rise from Old Ghis? What's your take? 
 
Can fire wight's only be raised from the recent dead? So no point in keeping them around past then? Maybe past a certain point they can only be raised for the Others? 

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Burying death people is the standard practice in all early societies. It was done in stone ages civilizations all across Europe, Mesopotamia, Egypt or China. I don't think that it is reasonable to extrapolate any connection from that.

On 10/24/2018 at 3:05 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Can fire wight's only be raised from the recent dead? So no point in keeping them around past then? Maybe past a certain point they can only be raised for the Others? 

That's probably the case. Wounds are not healed when a corpse is wightified, so if one has been dead form many months, it might be that some necessary organs are not functional.

It's not exactly the same kind of zombie, but we see that Catelyn could not speak properly because her throat had been cut. I guess that a wight would not be able to move once the ligaments are rotten. There must be a reason why the others don't use an army of skeletons, after all.

 

Edited by The hairy bear

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3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days?

No, just because they have similar burial practices does not mean they're connected. Like you say in your post, several cultures have similar burial practices to each other... Dothraki burn their dead on a pyre, so do Targaryens, but the Dothraki have no direct connection to the Valyrians. 

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7 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 
 
Who else do we know that does this? Better yet, who doesn't do this???
 
Well, the Wildlings don't, they burn their dead. The Tully's of Riverrun don't, they burn their dead upon the river. The Dothraki dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre. The Targaryen's dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre.  
 
The Starks and Houses that claim Fm decent bury their dead (Even though the Free Folk do not, though there are ancient graves beyond the Wall). The Faith of the Seven also bury their dead. Often these dead are buried beneath the Mance and it's weirwood tree. Though House Lannister is the only known Andal House we have seen with a weirwood.
 
Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days? Did Valyria rise from Old Ghis? What's your take? 
 
Can fire wight's only be raised from the recent dead? So no point in keeping them around past then? Maybe past a certain point they can only be raised for the Others? 

The Children and the giants both also bury their dead. I think there is a definite trend here.

The Tullys are an interesting example- although they do light the dead afire during the funeral rites, the important part seems to be that it takes place on the river, where apparently there was at least at some point a belief that their afterlife took place underneath, where they feasted eternally in a scene that sounds not all that different from the Ironborns'. I wonder if the burning was added at some later point?

 

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8 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

No, just because they have similar burial practices does not mean they're connected. Like you say in your post, several cultures have similar burial practices to each other... Dothraki burn their dead on a pyre, so do Targaryens, but the Dothraki have no direct connection to the Valyrians. 

Sure about that? Check their phonetics. Thats a good sign of some sort of link with the usage of Ae.

But i do get what people are saying about the cultures, except this is fantasy and we have an ice army that raises the dead. Some like the wildlings burn theirs because of this. It is possible these other cultures took it up for the same purpose. 

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4 hours ago, hiemal said:

The Children and the giants both also bury their dead. I think there is a definite trend here.

The Tullys are an interesting example- although they do light the dead afire during the funeral rites, the important part seems to be that it takes place on the river, where apparently there was at least at some point a belief that their afterlife took place underneath, where they feasted eternally in a scene that sounds not all that different from the Ironborns'. I wonder if the burning was added at some later point?

 

That's an interesting thought i hadn't considered. I was wondering about the union of Fire and Water my self, but didn't stop to consider the Iron Born

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9 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Burying death people is the standard practice in all early societies. It was done in stone ages civilizations all across Europe, Mesopotamia, Egypt or China. I don't thing that it is reasonable to extrapolate any connection from that.

That's probably the case. Wounds are not healed when a corpse is wightified, so if one has been dead form many months, it might be that some necessary organs are not functional.

It's not exactly the same kind of zombie, but we see that Catelyn could not speak properly because her throat had been cut. I guess that a wight would not be able to move once the ligaments are rotten. There must be a reason why the others don't use an army of skeletons, after all.

 

Well and with Caitlyn, it had to be Beric as Thoros refused to revive her. I wonder if Thoros refused for a good reason?

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1 hour ago, AlaskanSandman said:

That's an interesting thought i hadn't considered. I was wondering about the union of Fire and Water my self, but didn't stop to consider the Iron Born

With red and blue as the Tully colors that is not surprising. We are told the red is the mud from the Red Fork, but symbols often have multiple meanings and those meanings can change with the times. The Tully's owe a lot to the Targaryen's for naming them Lords Paramount,

Another possible water burial that springs to mind is the Manderlys- although they profess the Seven out lout they proclaim the Merling King as their sigil and the murals in Merman's Court (?) in the New Keep could almost be a pictorial representation of such an afterlife. I don't know if they bury their dead, sink them, or even eat them (a lot of cannibalism associated with these folks) but thought it worth mentioning.

I also wonder about Dorne- what about the different flavors of dornishmen? I could see the salty dornishmen practicing water burial if that is what is how it done back in the old country but the other two I'm not sure about. It makes sense that they both might practice underground burial although I also wonder if anyone practiced any form of air or exposure burial just to round out the elements.

And back to the North- I bet the Dustins, Barrow Kings of old, have some interesting things to say. I wonder if there are iron swords in those tombs?

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37 minutes ago, hiemal said:

With red and blue as the Tully colors that is not surprising. We are told the red is the mud from the Red Fork, but symbols often have multiple meanings and those meanings can change with the times. The Tully's owe a lot to the Targaryen's for naming them Lords Paramount,

Another possible water burial that springs to mind is the Manderlys- although they profess the Seven out lout they proclaim the Merling King as their sigil and the murals in Merman's Court (?) in the New Keep could almost be a pictorial representation of such an afterlife. I don't know if they bury their dead, sink them, or even eat them (a lot of cannibalism associated with these folks) but thought it worth mentioning.

I also wonder about Dorne- what about the different flavors of dornishmen? I could see the salty dornishmen practicing water burial if that is what is how it done back in the old country but the other two I'm not sure about. It makes sense that they both might practice underground burial although I also wonder if anyone practiced any form of air or exposure burial just to round out the elements.

And back to the North- I bet the Dustins, Barrow Kings of old, have some interesting things to say. I wonder if there are iron swords in those tombs?

Im honestly surprised we dont see mummies any wheres in the novel haha

Water burials such as the Iron born and probably any Rhoyish peoples make me wonder about the reach of the White Walkers powers. Is it just contained to land locked people, or is water no problem to them. I can't see why water would bother the Others.  Though i dont see how this feeds the power of the weirwoods as the burials do. 

As to the Iron swords, this is something i wonder about with the other houses too. Do the Blackwoods inter theirs with Iron swords? or no? Is this unique to the Starks? To what purpose? What does it mean when the swords rust away? 

The burning of bodies seems to be a clear rejection of the Others and their ability to raise the dead. Denying them an army. Melisandre has one way of creating shadow demons (Fire wights?), but these appear different than Beric or Lady Stone Heart. Both of which were recently killed. Lady Stoneheart being pass the point Thoros felt was reasonable tho. I can see these as two forms of soldiers against the Others though, but wonder about their being any alternative methods, as neither seem's to yield a very large army. 

The Dustins practice again seems dependent on whether there is a weirwood near their mounds and whether an iron sword is buried with them. 

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23 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Im honestly surprised we dont see mummies any wheres in the novel haha

Water burials such as the Iron born and probably any Rhoyish peoples make me wonder about the reach of the White Walkers powers. Is it just contained to land locked people, or is water no problem to them. I can't see why water would bother the Others.  Though i dont see how this feeds the power of the weirwoods as the burials do.

Maybe water is a problem for them? Just spitballing here but... many "fairy" creatures have problems crossing fresh, flowing water- what if the Wall works by binding fire and ice magic to produce an effect akin to the power of flowing water; that the Wall is in magic terms a river of flowing, purifying water?

23 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

As to the Iron swords, this is something i wonder about with the other houses too. Do the Blackwoods inter theirs with Iron swords? or no? Is this unique to the Starks? To what purpose?

I could see the sword thing being either a legacy of the Barrow Kings that the Starks took on when they conquered them or as something to do with their hypothetical alliance/interbreeding with the White Walkers. In either case I think the purpose is exactly what is stated to keep the restless dead from walking.

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What does it mean when the swords rust away? 

Probably that the body within has also decayed to more or less nothing and is no longer a potential threat.

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he burning of bodies seems to be a clear rejection of the Others and their ability to raise the dead. Denying them an army. Melisandre has one way of creating shadow demons (Fire wights?), but these appear different than Beric or Lady Stone Heart. Both of which were recently killed. Lady Stoneheart being pass the point Thoros felt was reasonable tho. I can see these as two forms of soldiers against the Others though, but wonder about their being any alternative methods, as neither seem's to yield a very large army. 

Certainly nothing on the scale of the Others.

If the Drowned Men are actually dead by drowning and brought back as some kind of revenants they might count as a small army but I'm not sure how likely that is.

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The Dustins practice again seems dependent on whether there is a weirwood near their mounds and whether an iron sword is buried with them. 

Those could be mutually exclusive. It seems like locking the dead away in crypts but held in place with iron swords (again with the fairy taboos) could be an attempt to keep the dead from rejoining the "natural" cycle of souls of the old gods' faith. An attempt that, iirc, ultimately failed- aren't the lower crypts compromised by weirwood roots?

 

Edited by hiemal

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On 10/24/2018 at 6:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

The Starks and Houses that claim Fm decent bury their dead (Even though the Free Folk do not, though there are ancient graves beyond the Wall). The Faith of the Seven also bury their dead. Often these dead are buried beneath the Mance and it's weirwood tree.

Literally all of westeros save a few houses bury their dead. Highborn folks tend to get buried in crypts. Where did you read of a burial under a weirwood that wasn't a sacrifice? 

 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Though House Lannister is the only known Andal House we have seen with a weirwood.

Lots of castles have weirwoods as heart trees. The Blackwoods have a dead one, but it is huge. 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days? Did Valyria rise from Old Ghis? What's your take? 

They probably showed up on the continent but westeros is really far so there wasn't a lot of interaction. and burying dead is ancient. It predates civilization 

 

On 10/24/2018 at 6:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

Can fire wight's only be raised from the recent dead? So no point in keeping them around past then? Maybe past a certain point they can only be raised for the Others? 

Maybe, but cat is pretty messed up and she was dead for three days.  

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On 10/24/2018 at 9:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

 

 
 
Who else do we know that does this? Better yet, who doesn't do this???
 
Well, the Wildlings don't, they burn their dead. The Tully's of Riverrun don't, they burn their dead upon the river. The Dothraki dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre. The Targaryen's dont, they burn their dead upon a pyre.  
 
The Starks and Houses that claim Fm decent bury their dead (Even though the Free Folk do not, though there are ancient graves beyond the Wall). The Faith of the Seven also bury their dead. Often these dead are buried beneath the Mance and it's weirwood tree. Though House Lannister is the only known Andal House we have seen with a weirwood.
 
Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days? Did Valyria rise from Old Ghis? What's your take? 
 
Can fire wight's only be raised from the recent dead? So no point in keeping them around past then? Maybe past a certain point they can only be raised for the Others? 

Maybe the First Men are descended from the Ghiscari.  Both have a touch of evil in them.

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I'd be curious to know what the Children of the Forrest did with their dead. Can't remember whether or not it has been mentioned. Just that they lived for a long time and were very connected to the earth.

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8 hours ago, 300 H&H Magnum said:

Maybe the First Men are descended from the Ghiscari.  Both have a touch of evil in them.

Well i have gone around and around about who was the first men. Though clues like Maege, Bael, and Maesters lead me to think Valyria. Though i could just be misunderstanding the waves of Fm. Corlos and Caster seem part of the first wave though, not connected to Lann and the family of Garth the Green. Could Garth's family be the Valyrian's while the first men were Ghiscari?

It's hard to imagine Valyria reaching Westeros but not Ghis, though it is possible. Alexander conquered alot of land, but not near as much as Rome. 

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7 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I'd be curious to know what the Children of the Forrest did with their dead. Can't remember whether or not it has been mentioned. Just that they lived for a long time and were very connected to the earth.

Well aren't all children singers? And all singers go into the trees no? Im a little confused on some of that too probably. 

There are children on weirwood thrones in BR's cave but its not said how many and if they are just normal children or Greenseerers.
So far the only human we can prove is in the weirwood network even is Bloodraven. 

Was there some one before him? Who? Whats their job? Did he fail?  I have sooooo many questions

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On ‎10‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well, the Wildlings don't, they burn their dead.

Are we certain of this? They burn their dead now, because they are rising and killing of late. But is this traditional? 

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10 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Are we certain of this? They burn their dead now, because they are rising and killing of late. But is this traditional? 

Historically, not always. There are graves of kings and heroes buried in the frost fangs that they searched through for the horn. 

Personally i think the North was once a kingdom.

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13 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Historically, not always. There are graves of kings and heroes buried in the frost fangs that they searched through for the horn. 

Personally i think the North was once a kingdom.

Right, so there is text that indicates the wildlings of old buried their dead. Is there any text that indicates that it was traditional to burn them before the wights reappeared?

By North, I'm assuming you mean north of the wall. The North below the wall was a kingdom for thousands of years before Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon. But I don't think there was a separate kingdom in the lands now occupied by the wildlings. Mayhaps before the Wall went up, one or more of the northern kingdoms might have stretched partway into that region, but there would certainly have been at least some old tales of an independent kingdom. At best, there are the Thenns, which function like a kingdom except that they elevate their Magnar to god-status.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Right, so there is text that indicates the wildlings of old buried their dead. Is there any text that indicates that it was traditional to burn them before the wights reappeared?

By North, I'm assuming you mean north of the wall. The North below the wall was a kingdom for thousands of years before Torrhen bent the knee to Aegon. But I don't think there was a separate kingdom in the lands now occupied by the wildlings. Mayhaps before the Wall went up, one or more of the northern kingdoms might have stretched partway into that region, but there would certainly have been at least some old tales of an independent kingdom. At best, there are the Thenns, which function like a kingdom except that they elevate their Magnar to god-status.

Yes, North of the Wall i think was a kingdom at one time. When Garth ruled, before the Wall was reportedly built. Since the Horn of Joramun is being searched for in them, i can only assume that they were burying them long ago. It may be that they only started burning them recently, or it may not. Even if you burn someone, there are still bones to bury though...

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On 10/24/2018 at 9:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

Is this a sign that Ghis was in Westeros during the ancient days? Did Valyria rise from Old Ghis? What's your take? 

 

On 10/24/2018 at 9:05 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

A Storm of Swords - Daenerys VI

"He knows. So do I." Dany remembered the horror she had felt when she had seen the Plaza of Punishment in Astapor. I made a horror just as great, but surely they deserved it. Harsh justice is still justice.
"Your Grace," said Missandei, "Ghiscari inter their honored dead in crypts below their manses. If you would boil the bones clean and return them to their kin, it would be a kindness."

 

Isn't this the chapter that describes the aftermath of the battle meereen? When Dany thought about the 163 she had nailed to wooden posts? Where there is talk about the flies and rotting bodies?

"Flies are the dead man's revenge." Daario smiled, and stroked the center prong of his beard. "Corpses breed maggots, and maggots breed flies."    "We will rid ourselves of the corpses, then. Starting with those in the plaza below. Grey Worm, will you see to it?"/

The quote provided in the opening post comes right after the above quote. My take is that trying to pigeon hole  different scenarios doesn't work.

The question in my mind is why did the child suggest Dany send the Ghiscari bones to their families?  It makes sense that the corpses be boiled to remove the rooting flesh but why return the bones? The child said would be a kindness,  Would that be considered a token of goodwill/diplomatic gesture?

I mean, in DwD the child asks Barry what should be done with Quentin's charred body to which Barry says:    "I'll see that he's returned to Dorne." But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that. We'll need to strip the flesh from his bones. Beetles, not boiling. The silent sisters would have seen to it at home, but this was Slaver's Bay. The nearest silent sister was ten thousand leagues away.

And remember that Aemon when he died aboard ship was pickled in a cask of rum until Aemon's body could reach land and be burned.

A Feast for Crows - Samwell IV     He will still burn, Sam thought miserably, only now I have to do it. The Targaryens always gave their fallen to the flames. Quhuru Mo would not allow a funeral pyre aboard the Cinnamon Wind, so Aemon's corpse had been stuffed inside a cask of blackbelly rum to preserve it until the ship reached Oldtown./

Basically a agree with some have already written and that is different cultures have different burial rites. I'm still wondering why Missandei suggested that Dany return the Ghiscari bones to Astpor ---- possibly simply because Missandei was a slave child there and knew the burial rites of the Ghiscari.

 

 

 

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