Why Does Cersei Want To Be A Man I Mean Be Jaime?

[manchester_babe]

I know I'll get replies about how Man had more purpose. But I wanna know why does she wanna be Jaime? She had his sons and his daughter. But why does she want to be him?

[Lollygag]

It's not that she wants to be Jaime. She wants to be treated in the way that she perceives Jaime is treated. Some of her reasons are legit, some not so much.

She notices at a young age that she is noticed only for her sexuality, as a political pawn and as a baby maker. Jaime is likewise beautiful but they notice Jaime for his talents being the glorified heir to Casterly Rock, involved in lots of not baby making/looking pretty sort of things, being treated as a big deal...stuff Cersei has always wanted for herself.

She resents the lack of autonomy over her own life. She was shipped off into marriage with Robert who called her by another woman’s name on her wedding night and this eventually became a very bad situation. Joff regularly has Sansa beaten which makes me wonder how often he has seen that. That Cersei allows this to go on only curbing Joff’s abusiveness is very curious.

The less legitimate reasons are that she uses not being a man as an excuse to not claim more autonomy and respect in her own right. She thinks that being a man would solve her problems thus she’s not to blame for her own situation. She has a very extreme victim complex and that she'll never be a man feeds this.

She is also pretty blind to the fact that men in Westeros don’t have it so good either. While Cersei rails at being another brood mare, she misses the part where Tyrion is forced to marry and be the male equivalent of a brood mare to secure Winterfell and Tywin is trying to force Jaime to be his heir and marry when he doesn’t wish it. It's still a better situation for the men than the women, but not as nice by far as how Cersei makes it out to be. But this would force Cersei to acknowledge that some of her situation is her doing and hers alone, but that’s not as pleasant as crying victim.

 

AFFC  Cersei IV

Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about septons. Seen up close, his hair was more silvery than gold, and his eyes were grey-green where Prince Rhaegar's had been purple. Even so, the resemblance . . . She wondered if Waters would shave his beard for her. Though he was ten years her junior, he wanted her; Cersei could see it in the way he looked at her. Men had been looking at her that way since her breasts began to bud. Because I was so beautiful, they said, but Jaime was beautiful as well, and they never looked at him that way. When she was small she would sometimes don her brother's clothing as a lark. She was always startled by how differently men treated her when they thought that she was Jaime. Even Lord Tywin himself . . .

 

 

ASOS Tyrion III

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!"

"You are my daughter, and will do as I command."

 

ACOK Tyrion V

Her hand lashed out, knocking the wine cup from his hand to spill on the floor. "Brother or no, I should have your tongue out for that. I am Joffrey's regent, not you, and I say that Myrcella will not be shipped off to this Dornishman the way I was shipped to Robert Baratheon."

 

ACOK Tyrion V

"In Riverrun, I should imagine. Safe and under guard, until I find a way to free him."

Cersei sniffed. "I should have been born a man. I would have no need of any of you then. None of this would have been allowed to happen. How could Jaime let himself be captured by that boy? And Father, I trusted in him, fool that I am, but where is he now that he's wanted? What is he doing?"

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

Does she want to "be" Jaime? I thought she just wanted to be a man in general. 

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I think she's always felt wronged that Tywin favored Jaime even after he joined the KG and forfeited away his rights to Casterly Rock and everything else. Mad that Tywin only cared to use her as pawn to get his blood on the Throne. 

If she wanted to live in a place where women are more appreciated she should have begged Tywin to marry her to Oberyn when he visited. As a noble she couldn't escape marriage even if she was a man and especially not as the heir to Casterly Rock. At least with Oberyn she would have had more freedom than with any other lord or prince. At the end of the day though she still wanted to be queen.

[Lord Vance II]

I don't know if she wants to be Jaime specifically, but if she does, it's because Jaime is basically a living representation of what she would be as a man since they're identical twins. 

She's an extreme narcissist. She loves her own beauty but wants the respect and power a man can have. Thus, Jaime, as a tall, beautiful blonde copy of her with a penis is the perfect middle ground. Plus with Tywin dead Jaime is probably the only person she sees as even close to her equal regardless of gender. 

[Unacosamedarisa]

Westeros is a Patriarchy, and Cersei wants power. 

[Gertrude]

Yeah, I think the first response nailed it. She experienced the differences in the expectations and training she and Jaime received growing up. She's right that it's not fair. She wrong in blaming her sex for all her problems. 

[zandru]

On 10/25/2018 at 4:59 AM, Lord Vance II said:

She's an extreme narcissist. She loves her own beauty but wants the respect and power a man can have.

I agree. But Cersei also seems to be lazy, not doing much to study or inform herself, or getting into the habits of learning. She doesn't seem to have any particular physical inclinations or abilities. Cersei's narcissism has been telling her that the only thing she needs to be superior to all the rest is a cock. No need to read and study, like the twisted little monkey Tyrion. No need to undergo rigorous physical training in arms and horsemanship, nor learn battle tactics, nor actually fight in wars and police actions, like stupid Jaime.

Cersei has always been handed everything on a golden platter and doesn't seem to have noticed, instead taking it for granted. She's accustomed to telling people what to do, and accustomed to levying punishment. She gets to do this because of her family, her marriageability, and her beauty. Yet all Cersei sees is that she's "held back". With a cock, she would take her rightful place - where Tywin used to sit!

The cock thing is one of the first of her delusions, and they just keep getting worse.

[Mindrot]

On 10/25/2018 at 5:59 AM, Lord Vance II said:

I don't know if she wants to be Jaime specifically, but if she does, it's because Jaime is basically a living representation of what she would be as a man since they're identical twins. 

She's an extreme narcissist. She loves her own beauty but wants the respect and power a man can have. Thus, Jaime, as a tall, beautiful blonde copy of her with a penis is the perfect middle ground. Plus with Tywin dead Jaime is probably the only person she sees as even close to her equal regardless of gender. 

I am not even sure if she considers Jaime her equal.  Maybe early on, but after she becomes Queen I think she looks down on everyone.  She basically uses Jaime as a spy in some instances, and probably just uses him as a sex object.  She certainly does not see him as an equal when he comes back maimed “Pining for what you have lost brother?”  I believe she says to him when he is looking at her naked body lustily.  She does still have sex with him, but it certainly does not have an “eternal love” type feel to it.

 

edit:  sorry you said close to equal

[Curled Finger]

Agreed with all above.   In support of this general idea regarding Cersei's misguided ideas about gender.   She is painfully aware of while promoting sexism.   She's just mean.   Jamie, Tywin, Mycella, Tommen and Joff are all just extensions of herself.   During my 1st read through the series I really really wanted to see what Cersei's reaction to a grandchild would be.   She is so shallow--would her jealousy and loathing for Margaery overshadow her love for Tommen?   Too bad he won't be around long enough for us to find out.   

[Angel Eyes]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Agreed with all above.   In support of this general idea regarding Cersei's misguided ideas about gender.   She is painfully aware of while promoting sexism.   She's just mean.   Jamie, Tywin, Mycella, Tommen and Joff are all just extensions of herself.   During my 1st read through the series I really really wanted to see what Cersei's reaction to a grandchild would be.   She is so shallow--would her jealousy and loathing for Margaery overshadow her love for Tommen?   Too bad he won't be around long enough for us to find out.   

Would she kill a child of Tommen and Margaery?

[Curled Finger]

16 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Would she kill a child of Tommen and Margaery?

I don't know.   She's just unstable enough...She's got no qualms about killing children and she really hates Marg.   Producing an heir seems to be the main job of queens.  We won't get a chance to actually see her reaction to any grandchild (though I think a child of Mycella's would be much safer in an Aerys/Rhaenys sort of way).  Given Cersei's vanity it would be fun to read it all play out in her head.   In the real world grandchildren change people mostly in very positive ways.   I don't think Cersei would understand the joy over seeing a grandchild as a sign of her own demise.   What do you think? 

[Angel Eyes]

21 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't know.   She's just unstable enough...She's got no qualms about killing children and she really hates Marg.   Producing an heir seems to be the main job of queens.  We won't get a chance to actually see her reaction to any grandchild (though I think a child of Mycella's would be much safer in an Aerys/Rhaenys sort of way).  Given Cersei's vanity it would be fun to read it all play out in her head.   In the real world grandchildren change people mostly in very positive ways.   I don't think Cersei would understand the joy over seeing a grandchild as a sign of her own demise.   What do you think? 

I’m not sure really. She really hates Margaery, but she hasn’t crossed the line into kinslaying... right? Regarding Aerys and Rhaenys, it actually made him a bit worse.

[aryagonnakill#2]

3 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not sure really. She really hates Margaery, but she hasn’t crossed the line into kinslaying... right? Regarding Aerys and Rhaenys, it actually made him a bit worse.

She has tried to kill Tyrion an awful lot.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

I’m not sure really. She really hates Margaery, but she hasn’t crossed the line into kinslaying... right? Regarding Aerys and Rhaenys, it actually made him a bit worse.

I see @aryagonnakill#2 straightened us out on the matter of kinslaying.   I was thinking more along the lines of killing Robert's bastards like the twins in the Westerlands, but i'm still unclear if kinslaying is a blood relative exclusively.   Either way, she can be a very nasty piece of business--i'm just not sure she would kill a grand child.   Then again, I'm not sure she wouldn't either.   

[Sigella]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:55 AM, Lollygag said:

It's not that she wants to be Jaime. She wants to be treated in the way that she perceives Jaime is treated. Some of her reasons are legit, some not so much.

 

She notices at a young age that she is noticed only for her sexuality, as a political pawn and as a baby maker. Jaime is likewise beautiful but they notice Jaime for his talents being the glorified heir to Casterly Rock, involved in lots of not baby making/looking pretty sort of things, being treated as a big deal...stuff Cersei has always wanted for herself.

 

She resents the lack of autonomy over her own life. She was shipped off into marriage with Robert who called her by another woman’s name on her wedding night and this eventually became a very bad situation. Joff regularly has Sansa beaten which makes me wonder how often he has seen that. That Cersei allows this to go on only curbing Joff’s abusiveness is very curious.

 

The less legitimate reasons are that she uses not being a man as an excuse to not claim more autonomy and respect in her own right. She thinks that being a man would solve her problems thus she’s not to blame for her own situation. She has a very extreme victim complex and that she'll never be a man feeds this.

 

She is also pretty blind to the fact that men in Westeros don’t have it so good either. While Cersei rails at being another brood mare, she misses the part where Tyrion is forced to marry and be the male equivalent of a brood mare to secure Winterfell and Tywin is trying to force Jaime to be his heir and marry when he doesn’t wish it. It's still a better situation for the men than the women, but not as nice by far as how Cersei makes it out to be. But this would force Cersei to acknowledge that some of her situation is her doing and hers alone, but that’s not as pleasant as crying victim.

 

 

 

AFFC  Cersei IV

 

Aurane Waters seemed as bored as Cersei by all this prattle about septons. Seen up close, his hair was more silvery than gold, and his eyes were grey-green where Prince Rhaegar's had been purple. Even so, the resemblance . . . She wondered if Waters would shave his beard for her. Though he was ten years her junior, he wanted her; Cersei could see it in the way he looked at her. Men had been looking at her that way since her breasts began to bud. Because I was so beautiful, they said, but Jaime was beautiful as well, and they never looked at him that way. When she was small she would sometimes don her brother's clothing as a lark. She was always startled by how differently men treated her when they thought that she was Jaime. Even Lord Tywin himself . . .

 

 

 

 

 

ASOS Tyrion III

 

"So long as you remain unwed, you allow Stannis to spread his disgusting slander," Lord Tywin told his daughter. "You must have a new husband in your bed, to father children on you."

 

"Three children is quite sufficient. I am Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, not a brood mare! The Queen Regent!"

 

"You are my daughter, and will do as I command."

 

 

 

ACOK Tyrion V

 

Her hand lashed out, knocking the wine cup from his hand to spill on the floor. "Brother or no, I should have your tongue out for that. I am Joffrey's regent, not you, and I say that Myrcella will not be shipped off to this Dornishman the way I was shipped to Robert Baratheon."

 

 

 

ACOK Tyrion V

 

"In Riverrun, I should imagine. Safe and under guard, until I find a way to free him."

 

Cersei sniffed. "I should have been born a man. I would have no need of any of you then. None of this would have been allowed to happen. How could Jaime let himself be captured by that boy? And Father, I trusted in him, fool that I am, but where is he now that he's wanted? What is he doing?"

 

 

 

Its the weird symbiosis thing: she doesnt want to be Jaime - she already thinks she is.

[Sourjapes]

She wants power, prestige, respect, and a greater sense of independence.