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Legitimate_Bastard

Did Roose actually think Ramsay was dead

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I have hit a spot of confusion.

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A Clash of Kings - Catelyn VI

They were uncomfortable thoughts, and futile. If Jon had been born of Ashara Dayne of Starfall, as some whispered, the lady was long dead; if not, Catelyn had no clue who or where his mother might be. And it made no matter. Ned was gone now, and his loves and his secrets had all died with him.
Still, she was struck again by how strangely men behaved when it came to their bastards. Ned had always been fiercely protective of Jon, and Ser Cortnay Penrose had given up his life for this Edric Storm, yet Roose Bolton's bastard had meant less to him than one of his dogs, to judge from the tone of the queer cold letter Edmure had gotten from him not three days past. He had crossed the Trident and was marching on Harrenhal as commanded, he wrote. "A strong castle, and well garrisoned, but His Grace shall have it, if I must kill every living soul within to make it so." He hoped His Grace would weigh that against the crimes of his bastard son, whom Ser Rodrik Cassel had put to death. "A fate he no doubt earned," Bolton had written. "Tainted blood is ever treacherous, and Ramsay's nature was sly, greedy, and cruel. I count myself well rid of him. The trueborn sons my young wife has promised me would never have been safe while he lived."
The sound of hurrying footsteps drove the morbid thoughts from her head. Ser Desmond's squire dashed panting into the room and knelt. "My lady . . . Lannisters . . . across the river."

Can someone please clarify for me, did Roose really think Ramsay dead at this point.

 

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According to the timeline, Ramsay is ‘killed’ in late-June, Roose writes to Edmure about Ramsay being dead in mid-August, and Theon sends Ramsay to gather Dreadfort men in mid-September.

So unless Ramsay sneakily sent a raven from Winterfell to inform his father, we can safely say that Roose believes Ramsay to be dead when he writes to Edmure.

Although whether he knows at this point or not, I imagine it wouldn’t change what he said about Ramsay considering some of the things he says to his face.

Edited by Darion Storm

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5 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

No, that's why the Frey boys were spared at Winterfell. 

Would Ramsay not have already known he was not to kill any Freys though?  I would have thought that would have been part of Red Wedding planning. IDK

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1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Would Ramsay not have already known he was not to kill any Freys though?  I would have thought that would have been part of Red Wedding planning. IDK

Had to work so I had only time for a short answer.

If Ramsay knew that Freys are to be spared, then he must've had some communication with his father. So I think you have the answer here.

If you ask exactly about the time being when the letter was sent to Edmure, I am not sure. Maybe Roose really thinks Ramsay is dead. He still didn't capture Harrenhal, where I think that he certainly had to find that out at some point.

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49 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

If Ramsay knew that Freys are to be spared, then he must've had some communication with his father.

I disagree. Anyone with half a brain would have spared the Freys. They are relatives of a wealthy lord who is known to stand for his family, so the boys were worth a good ransom. There's no need to presume that Ramsay had received instructions from his father in this regard.

I doubt that Ramsay had any means to communicate with his father while he was a servant at Winterfell. At that time, he wouldn't have access to the ravens, and could not contact with Bolton messengers. I guess he could try to bribe some Stark servant with promises of gold, but that would be extremely dangerous. I don't think he'd take the risk.

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8 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I disagree. Anyone with half a brain would have spared the Freys. They are relatives of a wealthy lord who is known to stand for his family, so the boys were worth a good ransom. There's no need to presume that Ramsay had received instructions from his father in this regard.

I doubt that Ramsay had any means to communicate with his father while he was a servant at Winterfell. At that time, he wouldn't have access to the ravens, and could not contact with Bolton messengers. I guess he could try to bribe some Stark servant with promises of gold, but that would be extremely dangerous. I don't think he'd take the risk.

That is what I was thinking. It was a point in his scheming where he was the most vulnerable - a message to Roose could have ruined the whole gig.

 

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32 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I disagree. Anyone with half a brain would have spared the Freys. They are relatives of a wealthy lord who is known to stand for his family, so the boys were worth a good ransom. There's no need to presume that Ramsay had received instructions from his father in this regard.

Theon was also worth a ransom.

Ramsay didn't care.

I don't think that Ramsay would take Winterfell in Bolton's name without his father's say so. That would put him in a very dangerous position. That way It seems like Ramsay made Roose turn his cloak and betray Robb just to cover Ramsay's usurping of Winterfell, which I am not buying. Or, it all sounds like a crazy coincidence, which is also not likely.

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56 minutes ago, The hairy bear said:

I disagree. Anyone with half a brain would have spared the Freys. They are relatives of a wealthy lord who is known to stand for his family, so the boys were worth a good ransom. There's no need to presume that Ramsay had received instructions from his father in this regard.

I doubt that Ramsay had any means to communicate with his father while he was a servant at Winterfell. At that time, he wouldn't have access to the ravens, and could not contact with Bolton messengers. I guess he could try to bribe some Stark servant with promises of gold, but that would be extremely dangerous. I don't think he'd take the risk.

Ramsay also could have been informed of his father's wedding to Walda Frey when he returned to the Dreadfort from Winterfell. We don't know if Ramsay had time to send a raven south to Harrenhal and await a response, or if he left immediately with the garrison because of Rodrik's army approaching Winterfell. 

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Theon was also worth a ransom.

Ramsay didn't care.

I don't see your point here. Theon was spared too.

He couldn't be ransomed, though. He had just betrayed the King in the North, burned Winterfell, and murdered "Bran and Rickon". Ramsay couldn't do anything else that kill him, or keep him prisoner until Robb arrived (or died).

1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I don't think that Ramsay would take Winterfell in Bolton's name without his father's say so. That would put him in a very dangerous position. That way It seems like Ramsay made Roose turn his cloak and betray Robb just to cover Ramsay's usurping of Winterfell, which I am not buying. Or, it all sounds like a crazy coincidence, which is also not likely.

Ramsay kidnapped Lady Hornwood, forced her to marry him at sword point, raped her, and left her in a cell to die. This is also outrageous and dangerous. The Boltons were taking a gamble. If they were able to cover it up and get away with it, they'd gain the Hornwood lands. If it didn't turn out well, Roose would claim that Ramsay was a wretched creature acting on his own (as he did). The Hornwood operation only went wrong because of Rodrik's swift response.

Burning Winterfell is not that different. If Rodrik had won or some witness had survived, Roose could always claim that he had no part in it. But in this case, the cover up worked and they were able to pass the sack of Winterfell as the ironborn's work.

It didn't force Roose to betray Robb at all.  He still had his options open. But Ramsay knows Boltons hate the Starks and his father will be happy if he is able to debilitate them.

1 hour ago, Nittanian said:

Ramsay also could have been informed of his father's wedding to Walda Frey when he returned to the Dreadfort from Winterfell. We don't know if Ramsay had time to send a raven south to Harrenhal and await a response, or if he left immediately with the garrison because of Rodrik's army approaching Winterfell. 

That's certainly a possibility.

 

 

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Yes, Roose believed Ramsay to be dead and was rather happy about it. He wants Ramsay killed for killing Domeric, but won't do it himself.

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On 10/25/2018 at 4:50 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have hit a spot of confusion.

Can someone please clarify for me, did Roose really think Ramsay dead at this point.

 

You not be alone in that confusion. I doubt I can clarify.

I struggle with when Roose turned his cloak against his liege lord.

Roose does not strike me as anything but methodical and for lack of a better word heartless.

As early as CoK I am informed that Roose married a Frey as revealed in the below Cat quote.

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn V (c.39)    Robb's betrothed to one of Lord Walder's daughters, and Roose Bolton wed another, I hear. And haven't you taken two of his grandsons to be fostered at Winterfell?"     "A ward can easily become a hostage, if need be." She had not known that Ser Stevron was dead, nor of Bolton's marriage./

I know that Reek/Ramsey was captive at WF for a while and that Theon/Reek didn't show up until DwD.

A Clash of Kings - Bran V  (c.35)  It was a few days after Alebelly's bath that Ser Rodrik returned to Winterfell with his prisoner, a fleshy young man with fat moist lips and long hair who smelled like a privy, even worse than Alebelly had. "Reek, he's called," Hayhead said when Bran asked who it was. "I never heard his true name. He served the Bastard of Bolton and helped him murder Lady Hornwood, they say."/

My problem in trying to reconcile Bolton intentions is that martin's chronology rarely runs in a straight line.

Granted that even if the ravens had been flying ---  it would appear that Ramsey had died and Ramsey's Reek survived Rodrick and the northmen.

Fast forward to after Theon sacks WF and when Theon releases Ramsey/Reek.

A Clash of Kings - Theon V  (c.56)  Theon narrowed his eyes. "How many?"   "A hundred, might be. Two hundred. Maybe more." He smiled, his pale eyes glinting. "I was born up north here. I know many a man, and many a man knows Reek."

How long did it take Ramsey/Reek to get from WF to DF and back again to WF?  Was there communication between Roose and the Dreadfort? Ravens seem to only flap between set points as in castle to castle.

When Ramsey set WF to torch Ramsey specifically said, "Save me the Frey's."

A Clash of Kings - Theon VI (c.66)   "Save me the Freys," the Bastard was shouting as the flames roared upward, "and burn the rest. Burn it, burn it all."

It strikes me odd that Ramsey said save me the Frey's.  Adjusting my tinfoil --- one of the Walder Frey boys [hostages] was out on the hunt for Stark's and one of the Frey boys [Little or Big Walder] met an untimely end in DwD.

A Clash of Kings - Theon IV (c.50)   "Let me come too. I want that wolfskin cloak." A boy stepped forward, no older than Bran. It took Theon a moment to remember him.

In the back of my mind, if one of the Frey boys was in on the slaughter of the miller's children that Frey child would be a witness that the Stark children were not actually dead. Blackmail possibility going on. :eek:

Theon remembers the killing of the miller's children while dreaming but it does not mention a Frey child being involved.

A Clash of Kings - Theon V (c.56)   All his dreams had been cold of late, and each more hideous than the one before. Last night he had dreamed himself back in the mill again, on his knees dressing the dead. Their limbs were already stiffening, so they seemed to resist sullenly as he fumbled at them with half-frozen fingers, tugging up breeches and knotting laces, yanking fur-trimmed boots over hard unbending feet, buckling a studded leather belt around a waist no bigger than the span of his hands. "/

Moving along to the the Red Wedding at the Twins in SoS  --- reveals that Roose kills his liege lord and the epilogue reinforces that Bolton was involved.

A Storm of Swords - Catelyn VII     A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted./

A Storm of Swords - Epilogue     The Red Wedding was my father's work, and Ryman's and Lord Bolton's. Lothar rigged the tents to collapse and put the crossbowmen in the gallery with the musicians, Bastard Walder led the attack on the camps . . . they're the ones you want, not me, I only drank some wine . . . you have no witness."/

When I get into DwD I get a bit more uncertain about Roose and Ramsey raven communications. Let's not forget that a Karstark and an Umber were hosted by Ramsey at the DF when Ramsey paraded the Reek/Theon out of the dungeon.

I guess the below information was transferred between father and son after the Red Wedding since Ramsey sent Reek/Theon to woo the Ironborn at Moat Cailin so that Roose could travel through the Neck.  Keep in mind Roose had a imposter ride while Roose hid in a covered wagon.

A Dance with Dragons - Reek III    "Taking him? Where? He's mine. You cannot have him."       Roose seemed amused by that. "All you have I gave you. You would do well to remember that, bastard. As for this … Reek … if you have not ruined him beyond redemption, he may yet be of some use to us. Get the keys and remove those chains from him, before you make me rue the day I raped your mother."

And of course Roose was laying claim to Theon so Theon could/would validate the marriage of Ramsey and the girl Lannister gave Roose.

 

 

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11 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Theon was also worth a ransom.

Ramsay didn't care.

I don't think that Ramsay would take Winterfell in Bolton's name without his father's say so. That would put him in a very dangerous position. That way It seems like Ramsay made Roose turn his cloak and betray Robb just to cover Ramsay's usurping of Winterfell, which I am not buying. Or, it all sounds like a crazy coincidence, which is also not likely.

In the novels Ramsay did NOT usurp Winterfell. Ramsay kicked out the Ironborn and left a wrecked castle. Ramsay then returned to the Dreadfort. This is the reason they had to kick out squatters when Roose decided to have Ramsay's wedding there. Winterfell still belonged to the Starks until the throne said it belonged to someone else. Even if they believed that every other Stark was dead, Sansa was still around and married to Tyrion. In fact, the throne (Tywin) decided to let Ramsay marry the fake Arya and take over Winterfell in that manner.

It is a show invention that if you killed the lord of a castle that meant you got to keep the castle and lands.

ETA:  Theon was different in that the Ironborn had declared not only their independence from the Iron Throne, but also war against the North.

Edited by bent branch

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1 hour ago, bent branch said:

In the novels Ramsay did NOT usurp Winterfell. Ramsay kicked out the Ironborn and left a wrecked castle. Ramsay then returned to the Dreadfort. This is the reason they had to kick out squatters when Roose decided to have Ramsay's wedding there. Winterfell still belonged to the Starks until the throne said it belonged to someone else. Even if they believed that every other Stark was dead, Sansa was still around and married to Tyrion. In fact, the throne (Tywin) decided to let Ramsay marry the fake Arya and take over Winterfell in that manner.

It is a show invention that if you killed the lord of a castle that meant you got to keep the castle and lands.

ETA:  Theon was different in that the Ironborn had declared not only their independence from the Iron Throne, but also war against the North.

He kicked those ironborn out by first slaughtering a host of loyal Northmen.

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On 10/25/2018 at 4:50 PM, Legitimate_Bastard said:

I have hit a spot of confusion.

Can someone please clarify for me, did Roose really think Ramsay dead at this point.

 

You ought to know better than to take his words seriously.  Many assumed he was willing to let Ramsay inherit the north because of what he said to Theon.  He was planting ideas in Theon's head.  Roose is too smart to let Ramsay kill his future sons from Walda.   A lord of the north with Frey connections can heal the wounds caused by Robb and Walder because the Starks are not universally loved.  The north will be a peaceful and quite a quiet land after the fools who keep spouting the north remembers are dead.

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2 hours ago, Sourjapes said:

He kicked those ironborn out by first slaughtering a host of loyal Northmen.

That is still not usurping Winterfell. Usurp means to take a position of power by force. Ramsay did take Winterfell by force, but he derived no power from that act.

ETA: Again, the reason Theon and the Ironborn were different was because they weren't recognizing the Iron Throne's authority in the first place.

Edited by bent branch

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7 hours ago, Texas Hold Em said:

The north will be a peaceful and quite a quiet land after the fools who keep spouting the north remembers are dead.

:lmao::lol:  a land ruled by sadistic sociopaths will be anything but peaceful or quiet…

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19 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

In the back of my mind, if one of the Frey boys was in on the slaughter of the miller's children that Frey child would be a witness that the Stark children were not actually dead. Blackmail possibility going on. :eek:

Theon remembers the killing of the miller's children while dreaming but it does not mention a Frey child being involved.

It appears that the Frey boy (Little Walder, I presume) returned to Winterfell with most of the search party.

Quote

"M'lord prince?" Reek dismounted, and beckoned Theon to do the same. When they were both afoot, he pulled open the cloth sack he'd fetched from Winterfell. "Have a look here." 

It was growing hard to see. Theon thrust his hand into the sack impatiently, groping amongst soft fur and rough scratchy wool. A sharp point pricked his skin, and his fingers closed around something cold and hard. He drew out a wolf's-head brooch, silver and jet. Understanding came suddenly. His hand closed into a fist. "Gelmarr," he said, wondering whom he could trust. None of them. "Aggar. Rednose. With us. The rest of you may return to Winterfell with the hounds. I'll have no further need of them. I know where Bran and Rickon are hiding now." (ACOK Theon IV)

 

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