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Moiraine Sedai

Dyanastic Rule. Khal Drogo and Mance Rayder

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17 hours ago, Starkz said:

The only time Jon broke his vows was when he said he was going South to stop Ramsay, who threatened the NW. Even calling that oathbreaking is ambiguous as the NW is under threat and Jon is going to eliminate that threat. You’re classifying all of the Wildlings as savages and rapists which is completely false and misleading. The North will never be united without a Stark leading them and Stannis campaign would have ended before it even started if Jon hadn’t given him advice. Jon is the only eligible person that the North could unite behind and follow. The NW is hardly a respected institution anymore I highly doubt anyone is going to have any problem with him leaving the NW especially when Jon is still serving the realm and it’s people in a greater more powerful capacity.

Jon broke his vows before that.  He broke his vows when he let Mance Rayder off the blocks.  He has a duty to execute Mance Rayder but he let the man go unpunished for his own selfish reasons.  He remembered the tale of Bael and he knew Mance can get inside Winterfell.  He broke his vows when he decided to pull his sister away from the Boltons.  That is interfering with affairs that he had no business in.  He dragged the NW into a personal war with Ramsay Bolton.  

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1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Jon broke his vows before that.  He broke his vows when he let Mance Rayder off the blocks.  He has a duty to execute Mance Rayder but he let the man go unpunished for his own selfish reasons.  He remembered the tale of Bael and he knew Mance can get inside Winterfell.  He broke his vows when he decided to pull his sister away from the Boltons.  That is interfering with affairs that he had no business in.  He dragged the NW into a personal war with Ramsay Bolton.  

Jon is trying to integrate the Wildlings into Northern society, killing their King is counter productive to his goals and saving the realm. Jon didn’t “pull his sister away from the Bolton’s”. Mel told him a girl was out on a dying horse, alone, in the Wilderness. Jon sent him to find and help the girl. Jon already had a target on his back from Westeros as evident by Cersei sending people to kill him. Jon didnt drag the NW into a personal war he made it clear he didn’t expect any man to follow him of the NW.

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So every brother whose unjustifiablely attacked by one of his brothers gets to forswear his vows lol? Seriously, he was also saved by his brothers on multiple occasions, fed, taught by them for years, given purpose, he’d be immature to think now that some of his brothers did something bad to him that gives him the right to break his oaths with his honor intact. 

 

Alys married a Thenn. They are not the same. And besides, it was either that or probably dying,letting her brother die, and letting her uncle usurp her and her brother. And Stannis is also burning Weretrees; clearly they are willing to suffer the man doing bad things. The moutain clan’s leaders came down and warned that any wildling found on their land would be killed; it’s clear they’re tolerating their existence, but not enjoying it. Seriously, are you really arguing that the north in general sees the wildlings as anything better than savages who rape their women and plunder their land? 

Stark blood rolls through at least half north house’s veins if you look far enough. Jon makes clear to Stannis half the north  has as much Stark blood in them as the Karstarks(who routinely mark themselves as Kim to the Starks).

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV

"A northman." Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace. "The Karstarks abandoned my brother amongst his enemies."
"After your brother took off Lord Rickard's head. Arnolf was a thousand leagues away. He has Stark blood in him. The blood of Winterfell."
"No more than half the other Houses of the north."
 

 And again most of the northern houses did not rush to Robb’s wife to see if she was pregnant with his heir-they rushed to KL to beg forgiveness. The Starks are long-standing dynastysure but, that does not mean only a Stark could ever the unite the north. It certainly helps a lot, but it’s not necessity. House Gardner led their people for thousands of years through winter; did not stop the Tyrells from being able to replace them. 

 You’re comparing Jamie stabbing the King in the back, to Jon uniting the North for the greater good, with the goal of saving the Realm after getting betrayed by the NW to Jamie stabbing the King? Really? I doubt any Northern is going to have a problem with Jon uniting them to save them all.

Betrayed by the watch? Did Malister and Pyke stab Jon? Did all the brothers in the brotherhood line up to stab him? Don’t be absurd. Marsh and his followers attacking  Jon after his declaration of war doesn’t automatically mean Jon gets to break his vows and leave his honor intact. And to be clear most houses would have little to no idea what Jon is trying to prep for—the wights are but a forgone myth, Jon would just be putting himself in a position of greater power in disregard for his oaths for no reason pertinent to some greater good. And even if they did in times of war, it’s entirely possible they would choose to priories their own immediate survival than the common good or think they are better suited to actually lead the fight.

The man was still loathed and thought a traitor who should have head off for his dishonor. Rightfully so. Despite Aerys not being respected it didn’t actually get people to see Jaimie’s oathbreaking to be less of a sin to which he need feel ashamed as having committed.  Again his society does tend to care about men keeping their oaths. And Yeah, the man did not murder Aerys to save KL. Literally he stabbed this decrepit old man in the back because he wanted to-it’s ridiculous to suppose the near 6ft athletic Jaimie would find it that difficult to knock out or tie up the utter husk Aerys had become. The reason he probably never told anyone is because the man is a complete Narcissist who literally doesn’t think he needs to justify his actions to anyone  and knows deep down if actually tells his story some one would point out how things he could have done short of killing Aerys and would very much like to keep his story of him being a misunderstood , margainlized hero. He does a similar thing with Bran-pretend as if he was helpless but to try to murder a child to cover up his crimes, absolving himself of any responsibility by putting the blame on Cersei(because ultimately he did it for her-nevermind he’s the one who pressured into having sex at WF in the first place and put them in the situation to which they could/were easily caught),  and Bran(for“spying”). 

Jon has more important things to do than remain constrained by the NW which is a small shadow of its former self. Jon is still protecting the realm if he leaves the NW, only in a greater and more powerful capacity as I’ve already said. The Thenns are free folk aka Wildlings, so that statement is completely false. You mentioning Stannis burning the trees just goes to show the Northman are flexible, as I’ve already just said, the Northmen will have no problem what so ever with Jon leaving especially when he is restoring the North and saving the realm from the Dead. Jon is a direct descendant of Ned Stark, the Warden of the North, direct Stark blood runs through his veins and by law with his siblings gone Winterfell becomes his responsibility. No House is going to be able to rally the North in the time required to make a stand against the Dead besides House Stark. The majority of the North doesn’t even know about the Dead. Jon has killed a wight and is more kownledgeable than any other Northern House about them. Sam who follows Jon will surely be coming back with more information about them. Jon leaving the Watch, restoring the North and getting them and likely the rest of the rational people in the Realm to fight against the Dead is the greater good. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices, which will be Jon leaving the NW, for the greater good. Jamie never told anyone about Aerys plan and if he had people would had been less judgmental as evidenced by when Brienne found out. Nonetheless Jamie faced no consequences for it besides words. Either way if Jamie hadn’t killed Aerys, someone else would of. Aerys was a mad man and terrible person and Jamie saved countless lives killing him.

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1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Jon has more important things to do than remain constrained by the NW which is a small shadow of its former self. Jon is still protecting the realm if he leaves the NW, only in a greater and more powerful capacity as I’ve already said.

Yeah,  this ignores the  point of the Watch being instrumental to actually letting the wildlings in-without Jon at the handle the people who likely to be LC are unlike to actually continue his initiatives. For all intents and purposes, Jon’s plans for how the north is to succeed works best if he stays in his position, and has the backing of Stannis. Otherwise Marsh or more likely Malister would most likely  be at the handle and they are not going to simply let wildlings in. 

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

The Thenns are free folk aka Wildlings, so that statement is completely false. You mentioning Stannis burning the trees just goes to show the North

The Thenns are not free-folk. They’ve more in common with the lords of the south than the wildlings. They’ve laws, lords, their culture is too alien from the wildlings to be honestly be lumped in with them. Jon recalls to Alys that Ygritte herself makes abundantly clear they are a fundamentally distinct group from the people who would call themselves free men;

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"So," said Alys, as Jon poured, "I am now a woman wed. A wildling husband with his own little wildling army."
"Free folk is what they call themselves. Most, at least. The Thenns are a people apart, though. Very old." Ygritte had told him that. You know nothing, Jon Snow. "They come from a hidden vale at the north end of the Frostfangs, surrounded by high peaks, and for thousands of years they've had more truck with the giants than with other men. It made them different."
"Different," she said, "but more like us."

But this is just a nitpick on my part. The north doesn’t see those beyond the wall as capable of being civilized. Please, honestly, you don’t see Jon letting the wildlings in as reason for why some would say he shouldn’t rule? If he cannot do what they can his Job is(keep the wildlings out), why should he be given another position of power.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

You mentioning Stannis burning the trees just goes to show the Northman are flexible, as I’ve already just said, the Northmen will have no problem what so ever with Jon leaving especially when he is restoring the North and saving the realm from the Dead. Jon is a direct descendant of Ned Stark, the Warden of the North, direct Stark blood runs through his veins and by law with his

Oh you’re now putting the qualification of Jon’s Stark blood being “direct” Stark blood. Instead of just Stark blood to which most share. Better I suppose. And yes the north is flexible-I haven’t been arguing against that fact. Hench me saying that the idea could never be united by a non-Stark as ludicrous. Plenty will likely have a problem with a bastard oath-breaker, whose on record as letting in the savages who’ve been raping their women and pillaging their lands for centuries. These are real points against Jon; him having Stark blood isn’t enough. Why shouldn’t they try for the seat instead some will probably ask, they have Stark blood, they are not oath breakers or bastards. And no. Legally Jon reliquensed any sort of claim to any land when he took his oaths-to be clear he had no claim prior to joining but even if he did, he gave it up.  And his youth makes it easy to discount. A mistake but one he would have to contend with and prove wrong-remember Greatjon(a glory hound, who cares nothing for honor), was ready enough to attack Robb before Greywind took some of the man’s fingers-and this was when Ned Stark’s very life is on the line. Robb still needed to show he was fit to lead in order to win the support for his venture-if Catelyn had been the delegating on his behalf, and he was Robb was whimpering in the corner, the northmen would be more reluctant to follow the boy’s lead. 

Hell again you ignore the response from most northern lords in response of Robb’s death-they didn’t rush to Jeyne Westerling to see if she was pregant and protect Robb’s future heir-they went begging to the iron throne, clearly whatever love the Starks had wasn’t enough to actually keep them together. 

They do not know Jon trying to save the realm by assuming some administrative role of the north. It would just show ambition more than anything.

1 hour ago, Starkz said:

Jamie never told anyone about Aerys plan and if he had people would had been less judgmental as evidenced by when Brienne found out. Nonetheless Jamie faced no consequences for it besides words. Either way if Jamie hadn’t killed Aerys, someone else would of. Aerys was a mad man and terrible person and Jamie saved countless lives killing him.

Jamie didn’t get his cleaved off-as justice demanded-but people did still have a problem with him being an oath-breaker. That’s the point. People do care when oaths are broken. Briene can be pretty guilible at times, and her not seeing the holes in Jaimie’s story isn’t solid evidence of no one really seeing how Jamie did not have to kill Averys-all the pyromancers were dead, Tywin’s men were literally at the door it would have been easy enough for Jaimie to hand Aerys over to the rebels.  He chose to kill Aerys and did because he wanted to-Jaimie hated the man, would have his murder be seen as noble. Someone else  would killed the man isn’t an excuse for Jaimie-he chose to do it. And did try to make his act as heroic. The man is a narcissist. He frames every instance where he does something immoral as if he truly was the victim, he had to murder the 8 year old, he had to fuck his sister, everyone else is responsible for Jaimie Lannister’s crimes except Jaimie Lannister.

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On 10/26/2018 at 7:19 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Well we know Drogo was.

The Wildings? Well, they are keeping track of Raymun Redbeards line. "Kissed by Fire"..... Bael having a Valyrian name.... I would bank on yes. 

 

Edit- Mance imo is banking on something else having to do with Val, tying back to Queen Alysanne. Come on, Mance's best friend Tormund just happens to have a possible daughter with Maege (Spelled Valyrian) whose name is, Alysane. 

I do not get the impression of him doing all this for purely utilitarian reasons. I feel Melisandre’s questioning whether or not the great other, as well as him doing nothing in response to Craster taking the tongue of one his messengers hints towards something dark.  

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Well if im right about the L.c being Mance's father, then Mance is Dornish by blood. Dorne who stood against the Dragons and presumable the Others? Dorne who supposedly have no weirwoods, except speculation of the mysterious Hell Holt (Forest) located near House Qorgyle. Seems really suspicious to me.

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48 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Yeah,  this ignores the  point of the Watch being instrumental to actually letting the wildlings in-without Jon at the handle the people who likely to be LC are unlike to actually continue his initiatives. For all intents and purposes, Jon’s plans for how the north is to succeed works best if he stays in his position, and has the backing of Stannis. Otherwise Marsh or more likely Malister would most likely  be at the handle and they are not going to simply let wildlings in. 

The Thenns are not free-folk. They’ve more in common with the lords of the south than the wildlings. They’ve laws, lords, their culture is too alien from the wildlings to be honestly be lumped in with them. Jon recalls to Alys that Ygritte herself makes abundantly clear they are a fundamentally distinct group from the people who would call themselves free men;

A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

"So," said Alys, as Jon poured, "I am now a woman wed. A wildling husband with his own little wildling army."
"Free folk is what they call themselves. Most, at least. The Thenns are a people apart, though. Very old." Ygritte had told him that. You know nothing, Jon Snow. "They come from a hidden vale at the north end of the Frostfangs, surrounded by high peaks, and for thousands of years they've had more truck with the giants than with other men. It made them different."
"Different," she said, "but more like us."

Please, honestly, you don’t see Jon letting the wildlings in as reason for why some would say he shouldn’t rule? 

Oh you’re now putting the qualification of Jon’s Stark blood being “direct” Stark blood. Instead of just Stark blood to which most share. Better I suppose. And yes the north is flexible-I haven’t been arguing against that fact. Hench me saying that the idea could never be united by a non-Stark as ludicrous. Plenty will likely have a problem with a bastard oath-breaker, whose on record as letting in the savages who’ve been raping their women and pillaging their lands for centuries. These are major drawbacks, to which would can cause houses simply to not recognize any sort of declaration by Jon himself to rule them. Why shouldn’t they try for the seat instead some will probably ask, they have Stark blood, they are not oath breakers or bastards. And no. Legally Jon reliquensed any sort of claim to any land when he took his oaths-to be clear he had no claim prior to joining but even if he did, he gave it up.  And his youth makes it easy to discount. A mistake but one he would have to contend with and prove wrong-remember Greatjon(a glory hound, who cares nothing for honor), was ready enough to attack Robb before Greywind took some of the man’s fingers-and this was when Ned Stark’s very life is on the line. Robb still needed to show he was fit to lead in order to win the support for his venture-if Catelyn had been the delegating on his behalf, and he was Robb was whimpering in the corner, the northmen would be more reluctant to follow the boy’s lead. 

Hell again you ignore the response from most northern lords in response of Robb’s death-they didn’t rush to Jeyne Westerling to see if she was pregant and protect Robb’s future heir-they went begging to the iron throne, clearly whatever love the Starks had wasn’t enough to actually keep them together. 

They do not know Jon trying to save the realm by assuming some administrative role of the north. It would just show ambition more than anything 

Jamie didn’t get his cleaved off-as justice demanded-but people did still have a problem with him being an oath-breaker. That’s the point. People do care when oaths are broken. Briene can be pretty guilible at times, and her not seeing the holes in Jaimie’s story isn’t solid evidence of no one really seeing how Jamie did not have to kill Averys-all the pyromancers were dead, Tywin’s men were literally at the door it would have been easy enough for Jaimie to hand Aerys over to the rebels.  He chose to kill Aerys and did because he wanted to-Jaimie hated the man, would have his murder be seen as noble. Someone else  would killed the man isn’t an excuse for Jaimie-he chose to do it. 

You’re own quote proves my point. They are free folk aka Wildlings. It doesn’t matter if they’re different than other Wildlings, they still are. “Free folk is what they call themselves. Most, at least. The Thenns are a people apart, though.“.

Everything is just speculation at this point, though with Jon’s blood, Robb’s will and supposedly being the last Stark. I doubt any of the Northerns will have a problem with him leaving the NW, especially given his reasoning and the fact that he will be saving the realm/North. Robb’s forces were destroyed and dazed and Lord Bolton had taken authoritarian command. The broken Houses had no power or anyone to rally behind leaving them with few options. Had Jamie been truthful about the events that took place, as I’ve already said, I doubt much of anyone would have had a problem with what he did. Aerys didn’t deserve a good death anyway as all of the Realm would have agreed. 

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17 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Vaes Dothrak is a retirement home for the khaleesi of a dead khal.   Which happened a lot because they are a warring people.  These older women have something to contribute:  knowledge and wisdom.  Necessary to balance the testosterone of the young khals.  

What knowledge or wisdom do they have? Im pretty sure this retirement home of theirs is to guarantee the khal will have no suprise offspring after his death.

17 hours ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Regarding the wildlings, Mance was born one and he has the personality of one.  But he got a taste of the civilized life and the bastard wants to have it both ways.  He wants to enjoy the luxuries and securities of civilized life but still have the freedom to do as he pleased.  Those are incompatible goals.  

He didnt make amy great strides when discussing peace terms, but like he told Jon, all he really cares about is getting the hell away from the others

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On 10/26/2018 at 11:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

We are given clues of many among the Dothraki desiring a unification of all the khalasars.  They waited for The Stallion Who Will Mount The World to bind all the khalasars together.  Do all khaleesi receive the same reception during their pregnancy?  I think no.  The Dothraki were purposeful in trying to birth their future leader.  Drogo was working to set up a system of dynastic rule with his own children. 

No, I do not think that there is dynastic rule for the dothraki.

search words ---- mother of the mountain, vaes dothrak, crones, dosh khaleen.

Vaes Dothrak is place where meetings of the tribal khals put aside their testroserone & weapons and mix & mingle. The city as described below by Daenerys.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV      Dany could not have said why the city needed a gate when it had no walls … and no buildings that she could see. Yet there it stood, immense and beautiful, the great horses framing the distant purple mountain beyond. The bronze stallions threw long shadows across the waving grasses as Khal Drogo led the khalasar under their hooves and down the godsway, his bloodriders beside him./

The crones of dosh khaleen do dwell permanently in the scared city of Vaes Dothrak, yet the city is large enough to house every man of every khalasar should every khal return to the Mother [of the Mountains]. (?) I'm guessing the mother of the mountain or the womb of the world is a large land/rock mass. :dunno:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV    "Only the crones of the dosh khaleen dwell permanently in the sacred city, them and their slaves and servants," Ser Jorah replied, "yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the khals return to the Mother at once. The crones have prophesied that one day that will come to pass, and so Vaes Dothrak must be ready to embrace all its children."/

Drogo was the Khal that had not been defeated in battle and his khalasar was the strongest.         Drogo leads as long as he lives or until Drogo is defeated, but the various khals still fight among themselves outside of Vaes Dothrak trying to knock each other out of first place.          Seems natural that the crones would elevate Drogo's child to magical status. What seems unnatural to me is the Dothraki give respect to the widows of the dead Khals.

When I use the word respect ^ above, in this instance I mean the Dothraki provide a place that the wives of a Khal live a reasonably safe existence as exhibited in the below quote.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X   "You are khaleesi," Rakharo said, taking the arakh. "I shall ride at your side to Vaes Dothrak beneath the Mother of Mountains, and keep you safe from harm until you take your place with the crones of the dosh khaleen. No more can I promise."/

 

 

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20 hours ago, Starkz said:

Jon is trying to integrate the Wildlings into Northern society, killing their King is counter productive to his goals and saving the realm. Jon didn’t “pull his sister away from the Bolton’s”. Mel told him a girl was out on a dying horse, alone, in the Wilderness. Jon sent him to find and help the girl. Jon already had a target on his back from Westeros as evident by Cersei sending people to kill him. Jon didnt drag the NW into a personal war he made it clear he didn’t expect any man to follow him of the NW.

His actions say otherwise.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch and broke his vows for his sister.  That is very clear.  He was getting ready to escalate this into war before Bowen Marsh stopped him in his tracks.

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On 10/26/2018 at 11:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

They lead people who follow the strong.  But what if these men wanted to change the culture?  Both were revolutionary in his own way.

 

On 10/26/2018 at 11:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

Is it possible Mance had the same goals for the Wildlings?  It would mean peace and less conflict.  Who doesn't want his own children to inherit after him.  It's human nature.

I'm sorry but comparing Drogo's and Mance's experience doesn't work for me. Yeah, both characters share vaguely similar traits but the circumstances are different.

Mance tells Jon Snow the free folk don't follow a name, they follow fighters.

A Storm of Swords - Jon X   "Are you a true king?" Jon asked suddenly. <snip> You don't become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won't follow a name, and they don't care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they'd sooner fight than follow."/

The difference between the in story variables when comparing the dothraki and wildling/free folk is ---- the dothraki were warring among themselves and the wildling/free folk seem to be migrating south trying to evade an unknown enemy.

A Storm of Swords - Jon II    Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o' Bones, between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers, hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name./

Har! iffin there be another leader of the wilding/free folk it just might be Tormund. Definately not Mance's babe, who is now aboard a ship. Yep, that ole baby switch. Craster & Gilly's baby is at the Wall.      Mance's and Dalla's baby last I heard is aboard a ship with Gilly in Old Town.      A ship Marwyn plans to ride to seek out Danerys.

For fun and for free I included a WOIAF quote which I put in a reveal tag to save space.
 

Spoiler

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings     Rangers of the Night's Watch speak of still stranger peoples who dwell in the more distant corners of the lands beyond the Wall, of bronzeclad warriors from a hidden vale far to the north, and Hornfoots who go barefoot even over ice and snow. We know of the wild people of the Frozen Shore who live in huts of ice and ride sleds pulled by hounds. There are half a dozen tribes who make their homes in caverns, and rumors tell of cannibals in the upper reaches of the icy rivers beyond the Wall. But few rangers have penetrated more than half a hundred leagues into the haunted forest, and doubtless there are more kinds of wildlings than even they can imagine.

The threat posed to the realm by these savage peoples can safely be discounted, save for the times, once in a great while, when they united beneath the leadership of a king-beyond-the- Wall. Though many wildling raiders and war chiefs have aspired to this title, few have ever achieved it. None of the wildlings who have risen up to become King-Beyond-the-Wall have done aught to build a true kingdom or care for their people; in truth, such men are warlords, not monarchs, and though elsewise much different one from the other, each has led his peoples against the Wall, in hopes of breaching it and conquering the Seven Kingdoms to the south.

The first King-Beyond-the-Wall, according to legend, was Joramun, who claimed to have a horn that would bring down the Wall when it woke "the giants from the earth." (That the Wall still stands says something of his claim, and perhaps even of his existence.)/


 

 

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1 hour ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

His actions say otherwise.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch and broke his vows for his sister.  That is very clear.  He was getting ready to escalate this into war before Bowen Marsh stopped him in his tracks.

Jon didn’t break any vows yet. Sending Mance to help a girl in the Wilderness isn’t breaking any vows. “Getting ready to escalate into war”? The North is already at war Jon would just be joining it. Personally I don’t even believe the Pink Letter is from Ramsay. Regardless, the letter is demanding  absurd things that Jon either can’t do or doesn’t even have. “Arya” isn’t even there and Jon can’t hand over Stannis wife and child or any of the other things “Ramsay” wants. Jon has no options besides fighting Ramsay.

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22 hours ago, Starkz said:

Jon is trying to integrate the Wildlings into Northern society, killing their King is counter productive to his goals and saving the realm. Jon didn’t “pull his sister away from the Bolton’s”. Mel told him a girl was out on a dying horse, alone, in the Wilderness. Jon sent him to find and help the girl. Jon already had a target on his back from Westeros as evident by Cersei sending people to kill him. Jon didnt drag the NW into a personal war he made it clear he didn’t expect any man to follow him of the NW.

Not really.  The wildlings already accepted the death of their king.  They were resigned to it.  Besides, they don't get to have a say in the matter.  Mance is an oathbreaker and a turncloak.  He deserved an execution more than Janos Slynt.  

It doesn't matter what Cersei had in mind.  That is no excuse for Jon taking sides and dragging the NW into a personal quarrel, which he started, with the Boltons.  Arya doesn't matter.  A lord commander should put all of that aside.  Forget about the Starks and focus on his job at the wall.  Moreover, he might have advised Stannis to take the black in exchange for Bolton cooperation in defending the wall.  Supporting Stannis and his war with Roose is just going to get more men killed.  That is a poor way to go about doing things if your goal is to defend the kingdom against the Others.  

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15 minutes ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

Not really.  The wildlings already accepted the death of their king.  They were resigned to it.  Besides, they don't get to have a say in the matter.  Mance is an oathbreaker and a turncloak.  He deserved an execution more than Janos Slynt.  

It doesn't matter what Cersei had in mind.  That is no excuse for Jon taking sides and dragging the NW into a personal quarrel, which he started, with the Boltons.  Arya doesn't matter.  A lord commander should put all of that aside.  Forget about the Starks and focus on his job at the wall.  Moreover, he might have advised Stannis to take the black in exchange for Bolton cooperation in defending the wall.  Supporting Stannis and his war with Roose is just going to get more men killed.  That is a poor way to go about doing things if your goal is to defend the kingdom against the Others.  

A Kingdom divided stands no chance against the Others, as I’ve already said multiple times. The Bolton’s are the source of the division and are themselves traitors and oathbreakers to the North. Jon isn’t dragging the NW into anything, he makes it clear he doesn’t expect anything from the men of the NW. Come the end of the next book Jon will be in charge of both the North and the NW preparing them all for what’s to come.

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On 11/4/2018 at 4:47 PM, Starkz said:

A Kingdom divided stands no chance against the Others, as I’ve already said multiple times. The Bolton’s are the source of the division and are themselves traitors and oathbreakers to the North. Jon isn’t dragging the NW into anything, he makes it clear he doesn’t expect anything from the men of the NW. Come the end of the next book Jon will be in charge of both the North and the NW preparing them all for what’s to come.

You know, Jon himself is divisive.  The stunts that he pulled (killing Slynt and letting Mance go free, trying to get Arya from Ramsay, and planning to lead an attack against the Boltons) are all divisive.  Those are not the actions of someone dedicated to the protection of the realm.  

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1 hour ago, Silver Bullet 1985 said:

You know, Jon himself is divisive.  The stunts that he pulled (killing Slynt and letting Mance go free, trying to get Arya from Ramsay, and planning to lead an attack against the Boltons) are all divisive.  Those are not the actions of someone dedicated to the protection of the realm.  

When you look at each situation he’s been in and deduce it with tunnel vision it may seem that way. Letting Mance go find and save a girl on a dying horse in the Wilderness doesn’t equate to him “trying to get Arya from Ramsay and planning to lead an attack”. Jon sent Mance to help a girl who was alone in the wilderness on a dying horse, which is plain as day in the text. Killing Mance is what will cause hostility. Jon is trying to make peace and integrate the Wildlings into the NW and Northern society. Killing their King is counterproductive to that goal. Furthmore, Jon was never planning to lead an attack on the Bolton’s until he was threatened and left with no other options. Slynt was a threat to Jon and the NW and Jon dealt with him appropriately. Allowing insubordination in your ranks will only lead to problems and bloodshed. Jon is a leader and perhaps the only heroic/moral character in the story and he will be the one to unite the North and the Realm against the coming storm.

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On 11/4/2018 at 4:00 PM, Starkz said:

Jon didn’t break any vows yet. Sending Mance to help a girl in the Wilderness isn’t breaking any vows. “Getting ready to escalate into war”? The North is already at war Jon would just be joining it. Personally I don’t even believe the Pink Letter is from Ramsay. Regardless, the letter is demanding  absurd things that Jon either can’t do or doesn’t even have. “Arya” isn’t even there and Jon can’t hand over Stannis wife and child or any of the other things “Ramsay” wants. Jon has no options besides fighting Ramsay.

Jon's intentions were to take Arya from Ramsay and ship her across the seas beyond his reach.  That is treason.   Allowing Mance Rayder to go unpunished is treason.  

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40 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon's intentions were to take Arya from Ramsay

Nope.

40 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

and ship her across the seas beyond his reach. 

That was one of Jon's thoughts.

 

41 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

That is treason. 

:dunno:

42 minutes ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Allowing Mance Rayder to go unpunished is treason.  

This one, I hem haw about. Yes, when LC Snow was presented with the truth, LC Snow should have taken Mance into custody.

 

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2 hours ago, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

Jon's intentions were to take Arya from Ramsay and ship her across the seas beyond his reach.  That is treason.   Allowing Mance Rayder to go unpunished is treason.  

You can’t take something from someone if they don’t have it. Arya isn’t an object that belongs to Ramsay nor was she supposedly with Ramsay at this time. Jon thought she was out in the Wilderness where he sent Mance to go. That’s not “taking”. It’s not treason for the NW to offer sanctuary to people or to help others. Jon letting Mance go isn’t treason. It’s dubious,  but the NW is integrating the Wildlings and Mance is the leader of the Wildlings. There is no perfect way for Jon to handle this situation that people won’t scrutinize.  

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On 10/26/2018 at 11:49 AM, Moiraine Sedai said:

They lead people who follow the strong.  But what if these men wanted to change the culture?  Both were revolutionary in his own way.

We are given clues of many among the Dothraki desiring a unification of all the khalasars.  They waited for The Stallion Who Will Mount The World to bind all the khalasars together.  Do all khaleesi receive the same reception during their pregnancy?  I think no.  The Dothraki were purposeful in trying to birth their future leader.  Drogo was working to set up a system of dynastic rule with his own children. 

Is it possible Mance had the same goals for the Wildlings?  It would mean peace and less conflict.  Who doesn't want his own children to inherit after him.  It's human nature.

It looked like a collusion between Khal Drogo and the Dosh Khaleen to me.  The other khals won't like the idea of answering to a superior khal.  So who is pushing for this to happen besides Drogo and the crones?  The leaders of the Free Cities.   The magisters, sealords, and archons look across the seven kingdoms and see it ripe for the picking.  An alliance with a united Dothraki people will make the conquest of Westeros rather easy.

 

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