Why did GRRM intend to name last book a time for wolves if the story is supposed to end with Targaryen restoration?

[Lollygag]

11 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Well you could certainly see it that way, and in fact without the Ragnarok allusion, a Time for Wolves probably sounds a lot more hopeful in context of the Starks!  But he's writing for posterity, not just for us anymore, so that title with its allusion is too murky.

 

I can see that. But what do you mean about him writing for posterity?

[Unacosamedarisa]

16 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Just look around you in this forum.  Many people suppose such a supposition.

That doesn't make it true. A Targ restoration is not guaranteed, thus the title of the final book doesn't have to reflect a Targ restoration. 

[Lady Barbrey]

26 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I can see that. But what do you mean about him writing for posterity?

I'm saying he's not just writing for a general audience anymore but for future literary critics when the books are complete, many of whom will know the phrase.

 

 

[White Ravens]

22 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why did GRRM intend to name last book a time for wolves if the story is supposed to end with Targaryen restoration?

That is a huge supposition.  It makes a lot more  sense to me that the conclusion will be focused on the remaining Starks considering how the series started with the discovery of the direwolf puppies and all of the Stark children receiving one to raise.  But just like you I'm basing my conclusions about the conclusion on supposition.  I also suppose that the seasons will be returned to a natural cycle by eliminating magic and that the Seven Kingdoms will return to self rule and that the Iron Throne will be torn apart and abandoned.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, Unacosamedarisa said:

That doesn't make it true. A Targ restoration is not guaranteed, thus the title of the final book doesn't have to reflect a Targ restoration. 

No, it just makes it a supposition.  Or, to paraphrase the OP, "If you believe X, then how do you reconcile it with Y?"

You don't have to accept the supposition.  But it is also silly to argue with the OP about the supposition.  If anything, the OP is challenging the supposition.

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 10/29/2018 at 10:42 AM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Why did GRRM intend to name last book a time for wolves if the story is supposed to end with Targaryen restoration?

since he already told you how the book ends, ask him about this

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 10/29/2018 at 1:53 PM, Cas Stark said:

1) This may be why he changed the title....because the ending is light on wolves, heavy on Targs.

2) He may have changed his mind about the ending, and again, made it more Targ centric over time, as based on the things he does write since 2011, it is very heavy on the Targs, and it appears, to me, that he is more vested in the Targaryens than in the Starks at the present time.

Those are my guesses.

The Targaryens are a lot more interesting.  The supplemental stories are all about the Targaryens.

Time For Wolves could literally mean the Starks living as wolves.  They are creatures of winter after all and may be in reference to the season. 

[Cas Stark]

26 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens are a lot more interesting.  The supplemental stories are all about the Targaryens.

Time For Wolves could literally mean the Starks living as wolves.  They are creatures of winter after all and may be in reference to the season. 

I'd say there is about 0.01 chance the Starks will 'live as wolves'...I have reconciled myself to the probability that I am not going to like the ending, but an ending like that would ruin the series and could no way be seen as bittersweet.

At this point, after multiple side trips and ancillary stories I am super bored by the worthless Targaryens who started with every advantage--WMD dragons, advanced technology/magic, beauty--and squandered it all due to their own stupidity and selfishness. So, I do find the idea of the story ending with a Targ restoration to be underwhelming.

[The Mother of The Others]

Well Rodrigo, the trick is to remember the ending should include the Ice and Fire families whose names grace the title of the series.  This is their party.  One family is the wallflower standing off in the corner for most of history (Pssst, he talkin' 'bout my Starks!)   The other family is the Kardashians who've spent most of history being at the center of things.  (This is a veiled reference to the Targaryen clan).  Well, Tamara, in order for these two kids to share the spotlight dance at the end of this prom (a series clearly themed around the reunion of their bloodlines), at some point they'll need to meet and sort things out on the dancefloor.  That's what led people to believe Starks will move toward the center to twerk- merge with the Targs' simultaneous run at the crown , culminating in the best game of musical chairs ever for the iron throne, and Jon and Daenerys will end up in each other's laps and like it.   

My porcelyn god, though!  Characters' lives blow out like candles in this series, so it's folly to imagine any scenario where there's particular survivors.  Because we don't know who'll get a molten pot of gold dumped on their head next, which would factor in heavily, for example.

[Curled Finger]

That was a depressing tale @Lollygag--I bet I won't shake that any time soon because even in the land of endless sunshine we can see Winter Is Coming.   I totally get what you mean about the lack of light, sometimes warmth, during our winters.  Sigh.  Poor Westeros. 

So I am taking "a Dream of Spring" to heart.   If it is all in the name this tale will end in cold desolation.  The Long Night or contemporary equivalent will have ended and the Others will have been vanquished rather than simply pushed back.  The survivors will only have that they survived this to face the utter bleakness of their world following famine, war, krakens, blood magic gone completely crazy, maybe flooding if everything freezes over--Hells Bells, the aftermath may be worse than the Doom.    Gads I wonder now what we are waiting for.   We all know this will not end happily ever after.   

With those cheery thoughts in mind, I doubt there will be any house restorations.   

[867-5309]

The direwolves are supposed to outlast men and the children during winter.  The Starks will die.  Their spirits will continue to live in their direwolves but they too will eventually die.  Perhaps the direwolves will die right before the arrival of spring.  

[lrresistable]

On 10/30/2018 at 4:38 PM, Lollygag said:

I used to think it was a hopeful title. "Dream" and "Spring" are such lovely words.

But a few years ago Winter was very, very bad. I realized that I only dreamed of Spring when Winter was at its worst. When it felt like I hadn't seen proper sun in months. When I went into work when it was dark and left when it was dark. When it felt like it would never end.

I never dreamed of Spring when the days started to get a bit longer, when the air smelled a little different than it had, when the days were a bit brighter. When we started to get balmy high temperatures close to freezing rather than way below. Seeing the change was enough that I didn't need to hope.

It's now an extremely dark title for me telling me how bad it will get which is more consistent with GRRM's warnings of dark, dark times ahead.

 

And @OP, where did you get the idea that the story was about a restoration of anyone or anything?

That was my interpretation of the title, too. Everyone seems to hone in on the 'Spring' part like everything going to be fine & dandy. it's time to wake up now.

[lrresistable]

9 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens are a lot more interesting.  The supplemental stories are all about the Targaryens.

Time For Wolves could literally mean the Starks living as wolves.  They are creatures of winter after all and may be in reference to the season. 

 

55 minutes ago, 867-5309 said:

The direwolves are supposed to outlast men and the children during winter.  The Starks will die.  Their spirits will continue to live in their direwolves but they too will eventually die.  Perhaps the direwolves will die right before the arrival of spring.  

 

I remember the Children of the Forest telling Bran something along the lines of - "everyone will perish, but the Dire[wolves] will outlast us all"

 

8 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'd say there is about 0.01 chance the Starks will 'live as wolves'...I have reconciled myself to the probability that I am not going to like the ending, but an ending like that would ruin the series and could no way be seen as bittersweet.

At this point, after multiple side trips and ancillary stories I am super bored by the worthless Targaryens who started with every advantage--WMD dragons, advanced technology/magic, beauty--and squandered it all due to their own stupidity and selfishness. So, I do find the idea of the story ending with a Targ restoration to be underwhelming.

i like to think of it more as they squandered it because George needed himself a story to write.

[Moiraine Sedai]

20 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I'd say there is about 0.01 chance the Starks will 'live as wolves'...I have reconciled myself to the probability that I am not going to like the ending, but an ending like that would ruin the series and could no way be seen as bittersweet.

At this point, after multiple side trips and ancillary stories I am super bored by the worthless Targaryens who started with every advantage--WMD dragons, advanced technology/magic, beauty--and squandered it all due to their own stupidity and selfishness. So, I do find the idea of the story ending with a Targ restoration to be underwhelming.

Oh don't get me wrong.  I would rather the Starks perish completely.  But the title hinted at a second life in the form of direwolves.

 

[rotting sea cow]

On 10/30/2018 at 8:18 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

The Targaryens are a lot more interesting.  The supplemental stories are all about the Targaryens.

People have argued that the Starks are GRRM's first love but Targaryens are the ones he married.

It's possible that originally the ends of the story was heavily Stark focused. Now other players have also their own important place.

[dmfn]

On 10/30/2018 at 11:38 AM, Lollygag said:

I used to think it was a hopeful title. "Dream" and "Spring" are such lovely words.

But a few years ago Winter was very, very bad. I realized that I only dreamed of Spring when Winter was at its worst. When it felt like I hadn't seen proper sun in months. When I went into work when it was dark and left when it was dark. When it felt like it would never end.

I never dreamed of Spring when the days started to get a bit longer, when the air smelled a little different than it had, when the days were a bit brighter. When we started to get balmy high temperatures close to freezing rather than way below. Seeing the change was enough that I didn't need to hope.

It's now an extremely dark title for me telling me how bad it will get which is more consistent with GRRM's warnings of dark, dark times ahead.

 

And @OP, where did you get the idea that the story was about a restoration of anyone or anything?

100% agree.

Spring? In your dreams! 

That's how this title has always sounded to me. 

As far as changing the title, I lean towards the idea of this story outgrowing just the Starks. I'm not making any assumptions about the actual ending, but I can't imagine Jon and Dany (or anyone, really) living "happily ever after". That ain't this story. 

[wia]

On 10/30/2018 at 6:38 AM, Lollygag said:

I used to think it was a hopeful title. "Dream" and "Spring" are such lovely words.

But a few years ago Winter was very, very bad. I realized that I only dreamed of Spring when Winter was at its worst. When it felt like I hadn't seen proper sun in months. When I went into work when it was dark and left when it was dark. When it felt like it would never end.

I never dreamed of Spring when the days started to get a bit longer, when the air smelled a little different than it had, when the days were a bit brighter. When we started to get balmy high temperatures close to freezing rather than way below. Seeing the change was enough that I didn't need to hope.

It's now an extremely dark title for me telling me how bad it will get which is more consistent with GRRM's warnings of dark, dark times ahead.

Oh, I can relate to that every single year. 

And to me it also sounds like 'Spring? - Dream on!" to me.

[alienarea]

Maybe he just had to make up a title for the last book on the fly, for example for selling it as a complete story to HBO. Later on he changed his mind about the title, because he changes his mind a lot.

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 10/29/2018 at 1:53 PM, Cas Stark said:

1) This may be why he changed the title....because the ending is light on wolves, heavy on Targs.

2) He may have changed his mind about the ending, and again, made it more Targ centric over time, as based on the things he does write since 2011, it is very heavy on the Targs, and it appears, to me, that he is more vested in the Targaryens than in the Starks at the present time.

Those are my guesses.

I hope so.  I'm not too interested in the wolves to be honest.  

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

May be R+L=D  OR perhaps like A Game of Thrones was basically a Stark book the last book will be a Stark dominated book , but that doesn't mean that Daenerys ,Tyrion and may be Arianne or Jaime might get a good mention.