What is Jon Snow capable of: Protector of North, King of Westeros, Dany's consort or Hand of the King?

[Moiraine Sedai]

Well.  It is almost certain the Wildlings will choose him to be their next leader.  He is at least as powerful as Mance Rayder.  Enough to control the Gift.

[norwaywolf123]

5 hours ago, Starkz said:

What you’ve just said is what I imagine will happen. The Others and defeating them combined with Winter and all the destruction will be a wake up call to begin to rebuild and change their ways/unify. I never mentioned the crypts, I just meant in general Winterfell would be destroyed as in just rubble and ash and need to be totally rebuilt. 8000 years ago Westeros wasn’t as unified as it is now, though right now isn’t a very good example, I believe total unification will come towards the end of the series. Ideally, in the Disney ending Jon and Dany ruling would unite every Kingdom but there are a lot of candidates who could.

What about a more disuntied Westeros? Full of small competing entities as before the kingdoms of Westeros were united through marriage, conquest, etc. Could this shattered Westeros be a bitter sweat ending? Humanity survived, but only to squable amongst themselfes. Would Westeros as a political entity disintegrate after the Long Night 2.0 be bittersweat? Would it be plausible?

[chrisdaw]

A father who will not allow his child to be sacrificed for the realm.

[Starkz]

43 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

What about a more disuntied Westeros? Full of small competing entities as before the kingdoms of Westeros were united through marriage, conquest, etc. Could this shattered Westeros be a bitter sweat ending? Humanity survived, but only to squable amongst themselfes. Would Westeros as a political entity disintegrate after the Long Night 2.0 be bittersweat? Would it be plausible?

Maybe, but after the war against the AoTD I imagine a lot of Westeros to be in ruin, at the very least the North. With Winter approaching they’ll have to band together to survive as Westeros is already not in very good shape at all, which is why I presume  the 7K will stay together.

[Varysblackfyre321]

9 hours ago, Starkz said:

Jon was successfully managing the Wildlings and NW, of whom have many prejudices toward one another and differences. Just because some extremists thought killing him would solve   something(killing Jon doesn’t help the NW in anyway), doesn’t mean he was unsuccesful. The Wildlings were ready to follow him into battle and perhaps some of the NW, though I imagine most would abstain. I’m comparing the fact that you refer to Jon as unsuccesful because of the attempt on his life to Ceaser who was killed, of which didn’t negate the fact that he was a very successful leader/ruler. In regards to Marsh, there’s not much you can do as he’s in a position of power and hasn’t openly acted out against him and what Marsh did was extreme, especially given the circumstances and the place of which he did it.

Um this is wrong. Marsh is not an extremist in his views. That would imply his views are particularly exceptional  when it comes to the NW. They are not portrayed  as such.  It’s clearly noted that the stewards and builders by Jon himself  support Marsh’s ideas of what the watch is to do to survive-which are the total opposite of what Jon wants to do. Pyke and Malister expressed how they themselves do not actually think working with the wildlings is anything but a bad idea; Pyke went as far as to say the wildlings Jon sent to help out at Castle Greyguard would only be useful if they were hanged and made as a warning for the other wildlings.  And there was unlikely to be any brother at castle Black to which would tag along with Jon’s plan to war with house Bolton or think it’s a good idea . No one came up to him to say they thought it was a good idea, and Jon himself did not anything that can be interpreted as approval from the crows in attendance.  

Jon did not actually try  win the support of his brothers for his policies; them being to allow in the very people who shortly ago, tortured their and/or murdered their brothers, and who tried to kill them. There’s no reason to think it likely  they, without experiences fighting wights, without Jon talking to them, and trying to convince them that allowing scum like Tormund, and The weeper in is necessary, that they would be in favor of Jon’s ideas of letting all the “savages” in. His approval rating is unlikely to be large to say the least. Should he die, Jon’s work to actually integrate the wildlings would be stopped given no one is like to care try to continue it. 

Dead before it had time to truly be born. The next biggest error is him not taking any safety precautions; honestly, the guy should have had actual bodyguards given his radical policies, and the fact he does cut an intimidating figure when he walks alone. They would have proved valuable one imagines when Marsh attempted his assasassaination. Truth be told he’s lucky he hasn’t faced an similar attempt on his life earlier. He really lucked out in the werewoods, when  the wildlings, he encountered weren’t pro-Weeper.  everyone who warned Jon against Jon going to the werewoods with the new recruits was right, the risk was unwise for him to take given what could go wrong.   It kinda reminds me of a book I like. In it theres a young man who is a king in a city under siege. The young man when some of the enemies break through rushes on his horse to combat steers his horse directly towards the enemy and nearly gets killed as a result. He is later criticized by an old wizard for it given he could have very easily sent of his expendable followers to meet the enemy instead of jeopardizing everything by putting himself at risk to do something he could have had literally anyone else do and who was again expendable. 

Marsh did not have to be kept on as lord Steward; Jon could have removed him from that position at any point. And he really should have after Marsh literally accused Jon of treason. And perhaps after give Marsh good whipping(or some form punishment) for insubordination.  Insubordination includes disrespecting a superior. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Family. Duty. Honor.

 

Jon is more a Tully than Cat is!

How? Even her biggest errors, by Catelyn, are done at love for her family. 

[Starkz]

29 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Um this is wrong. Marsh is not an extremist in his views. That would imply his views are extreme when it comes to the NW. It doesn’t seem as such.  It’s clearly noted that the stewards and builders by Jon himself  seemingly support Marsh’s ideas of what the watch is to do to survive. Pyke and Malister expressed how they themselves do not actually think working with the wildlings is anything but a bad idea; Pyke went as far as to say the wildlings Jon sent to help out at Castle Greyguard would only be useful if they were hanged and made as a warning for the other wildlings.  And there was unlikely to be any brother at castle Black to which would tag along with Jon’s plan to war with house Bolton or think it’s a good idea . No one came up to him to say they thought it was a good idea, and Jon himself did not anything that can be interpreted as approval from those in attendance. 

Jon did not actually try  win the support of his brothers for his policies; them being to allow in the very people who shortly ago, tortured their and/or murdered their brothers, and who tried to kill them. There’s no reason to think it likely  they, without experiences fighting wights, without Jon talking to them, and trying to convince them that allowing scum like Tormund, and The weeper in is necessary, that they would be in favor of Jon’s ideas of letting all the “savages” in. His approval rating is unlikely to be large to say the least. This was his biggest error. Should he die, Jon’s work to actually integrate the wildlings would be stopped.

Dead before it had time to truly be born. The next biggest error is him not taking any safety precautions; honestly, the guy should have had actual bodyguards given his radical policies, and the fact he does cut an intimidating figure when he walks alone. They would have proved valuable one imagines when Marsh attempted his assasassaination. Truth be told he’s lucky he hasn’t faced an similar attempt on his life earlier. He really lucked out in the werewoods, when the wildlings, he encountered weren’t pro-Weeper, everyone who warned Jon against Jon going was right, the risk was unwise for him to take given what could go wrong. 

Marsh did not have to be kept on as lord Steward; Jon could have removed him from that position at any point. And he really should have after Marsh literally accused Jon of treason. And perhaps after give Marsh good whipping(or some form punishment) for insubordination.  

Some members of the NW may not like what Jon’s doing, but there is a clear cut difference between someone who doesn’t like what their leader is doing, and someone who tries to assassinate their leader because they don’t like what they’re doing. The latter is what is called extreme. Furthermore in regards to your ramblings on body guards, Jon has a a huge direwolf protecting him. GRRM purposely made Ghost indisposed as there is no way anyone is getting close to Jon with ill intent when Ghost is with him. On top of all of that Jon doesn’t expect such prejudice and xenophobia to drive Marsh to such extremes and it’s very hard to know when anyone close to you is willing to go to such extremities. Jon does explain to Marsh the true purpose of the NW and why he’s letting the Wildlings through, Marsh just doesn’t care. Jon dying doesn’t help the NW at all, quite the opposite actually. The Wildlings easily outnumber the NW and if the Pink Letter is written by Ramsay, which is unlikely imo, killing the man who supposedly can stop Ramsay from destroying the NW isn’t the best idea. Jon made it perfectly clear he was going South to stop Ramsay after he threatened the NW so either way he would of been gone and it’s to late to stop the Wildlings from coming South. Marsh acted out irrationally and impulsive with his plan to kill Jon, which I imagine he’d been planning/thinking about for awhile.

[Varysblackfyre321]

3 hours ago, Starkz said:

Some members of the NW may not like what Jon’s doing, but there is a clear cut difference between someone who doesn’t like what their leader is doing, and someone who tries to assassinate their leader because they don’t like what they’re doing.

Some? The majority most like given the stewards and builders(the people who are the majority), are noted by Jon as being in Marsh’s camp. Seriously, Jon plans on letting in the people who’ve been torturing and killing them for centuries.  It’s unlikely the majority of are going to be soar in the manner of the guy’s passing.  

3 hours ago, Starkz said:

Jon has a a huge direwolf protecting him. GRRM purposely made Ghost indisposed as there is no way anyone is getting close to Jon with ill intent when Ghost is with him.

Please, the white wolf being not being with Jon is not such a rare thing. There’s a reason Jon isn’t alarmed that Ghost wasn’t with him.  And Ghost is still just one animal. That does need to rest at some point.  Jon needed protection 24/7 given his  agenda and the amount of people he’ll earn loathing from because of it. Even Ghost sleeping with Jon with Jon is not enough given both are still vulnerable in their state of rest.  Melisandre walks about with at least some men protecting her-not because they are the best but their very presence dissuades people from trying anything. Jon allowed himself to be too vulnerable. Hopefully, next book he does not needlessly put himself in a position to where it’s not so easy to kill him; seriously, disdapointing he did not learn to be careful after his run in with the wildlings in the werewoods.

3 hours ago, Starkz said:

On top of all of that Jon doesn’t expect such prejudice and xenophobia to drive Marsh to such extremes and it’s very hard to know when anyone close to you is willing to go to such extremities.

Jon was foolish not to think it a very real possibility  a man who literally thinks Jon’s policies would destroy the watch and flat-out says they’re treasonous would kill Jon in order to (in his eyes at least), save the brotherhood from destruction.  Jon’s death in his eyes means the watch as a whole has a better chance of survival. Hell Jon’s own immediate predasseore was killed by his own men in a mutiny.

Tell me do you seriously think lecturing just at Marsh on the necessity of letting in the wildlings  was all Jon should be expected to do? He should not be expected to at least try to make  it so that a person who shares his views on how the watch should move forward  is in a position to succeed him should he die? Because Malister and Pyke will not continue Jon’s work. They see no path of success that involves working with the wildlings. 

Do you at least concede Jon could and should  have dismissed Marsh from his position after his blantant insubordination? 

[Starkz]

2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Some? The majority most like given the stewards and builders(the people who are the majority), are noted by Jon as being in Marsh’s camp. Seriously, Jon plans on letting in the people who’ve been torturing and killing them for centuries.  It’s unlikely the majority of are going to be soar in the manner of the guy’s passing. 

Please, Ghost is frequently absent at Jon’s side. The white wolf being not being with Jon is not an anomaly, it’s fairly typical. And Ghost is still just one animal. That does need to rest at some point.  Jon needed protection 24/7 given his  agenda and the amount of people he’ll earn loathing from because of it.  Melisandre walks about with at least some men protecting her-not because they are the best but their very presence dissuades people from trying anything.Jon allowed himself to be too vulnerable. Hopefully, next book he does not needlessly put himself in a position to where it’s not so easy to kill him; seriously, disdapointing he did not learn to be careful after his run in with the wildlings in the werewoods.

Jon was foolish not to think it a very real possibility  a man who literally thinks Jon’s policies would destroy the watch and flat-out says they’re treasonous would kill Jon in order to (in his eyes at least), save the brotherhood from destruction.  Hell Jon’s own immediate predasseore was killed by his own men in a mutiny. He dropped the ball here. 

Tell me do you seriously think that one lecture at Marsh was all Jon should be expected to do? He should not be expected to at least try to make  it so that a person who shares his views on how the watch should move forward  is in a position to succeed him should he die or that there is really is a significant portion of the watch who actually agrees with him on actually working with the wildlings? He did not have to convince anyone of his brothers what he was doing was necessary?

Do you at least concede Jon could and should  have dismissed Marsh from his position after his blantant insubordination? 

 

Viewing the situation from Jon’s PoV, these are his Brothers, men that he’s sworn to serve with until death and protect. The thought, or action, of a LC being attacked by their own men is rather abnormal. Hell, almost every situation Jon finds himself in is abnormal and unchartered.  I imagine if Ghost wasn’t in Jon’s room he would of been out with Jon with the ensuing chaos of Wun Wun going on. Elaborating on this Ghost has before sensed danger and was acting up prior to the attack on Jon which could be attributed to Marsh’s plan. As I’ve said before, Marsh killing Jon was very extreme and it’s not easy to predict extremities. Jeor was killed by criminals not a high ranking member of the NW. Jon is in his Castle, surrounded by hundreds of his men sworn to the NW, not walking through a dank alley.

I don’t think Jon could have said anything or done anything to convince Marsh to give the Wildlings a chance/accept them. Jon has made his intentions clear to his men in regards to the Wildlings and why he’s doing what he’s doing. The situation with the Wildlings is very similar to the situation in Meereen with slavery. Their are people in Meereen that are never going to accept a slavery free Meereen, just as members of the NW wont accept the Wildlings. Marsh hasn’t accepted any decision Jon has made and seems to be biased towards every single thing he does telling him to do the opposite, how can you work with a man like that? A good leader has to and does make tough decisions. Bringing the Wildlings South is a difficult decision, but the right one. Jon giving a speech/speeches of acceptance of the Wildlings isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. Seeing is believing. Integrating the Wildlings into the NW and integrating them with the NW is what will lead to their acceptance, not Jon telling people to. Now with Marsh’s actions, everything has imploded and hopefully Jon will be able to recover everything. When Jon comes to, I imagine Jon and Ghost will be rather inseparable.

 

I think if Jon could have gotten rid of Marsh, he would of. Marsh however has been in the NW for far longer than Jon and has quite the supporting cast. Of course, looking back at it from the result of everything I believe Jon should of gotten rid of him, though I imagine it would of been difficult. 

[867-5309]

On 10/29/2018 at 4:00 PM, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

What is Jon Snow capable of: Protector of North, King of Westeros, Dany's consort or Hand of the King?

Jon couldn't even handle a few men at the wall.   He's not good for any type of leadership position, let alone ruling.  He might be fine as a consort.  Maybe consort to the Lady of Winterfell.  Arya's husband.  

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, Prince Yourwetdream Aeryn said:

Tully motto doesn't say that family is important than duty and honor.

Bran questions it when Cat leaves and Luwin can't exactly say it's not in that order.

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, wia said:

The mystery of Jon's parents is solved! 

Absolutely, he is the love child of Brynden and Brandon. Ned keeps it a secret as it would be devastating if she learns her own uncle was sleeping with her fiancee.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 hours ago, Starkz said:

I think if Jon could have gotten rid of Marsh, he would of. Marsh however has been in the NW for far longer than Jon and has quite the supporting cast. Of course, looking back at it from the result of everything I believe Jon should of gotten rid of him, though I imagine it would of been difficult. 

If? It’s not if. The position  Lord Steward is not a lifetime appointment. It’s a position granted by the lord commander.  It doesn’t matter if a lord Steward has served 60 years, even if someone whose been in the watch a day became lord commander, that lord commander could take the position and give it to whoever he wants.  Marsh himself went to Jon when the guy ascended to the position of Lord commander to ask if Jon would allow him to continue being lord Steward. 

Marsh’s support did not make him invulnerable. Hell Allister who did have Marsh(and by extension yes his supporting cast)  in his corner and was in the watch since Jon was a a babe. He was easily Jon enough dealt with by Jon by sending him on a ranging. Jon did not similar with Marsh because he failed to recognize the threat that was blantant in the man and thought it more beneficial to keep him at his current position. 

He made a mistake. 

 

7 hours ago, Starkz said:

Viewing the situation from Jon’s PoV, these are his Brothers, men that he’s sworn to serve with until death and protect. The thought, or action, of a LC being attacked by their own men is rather abnormal. Hell, almost every situation Jon finds himself in is abnormal and unchartered.  

From Jon’s POV these are men who’ve made clear they see him as a traitor whose going to get them all killed and the watch, the very organization they swore to protect and serve destroyed.  

7 hours ago, Starkz said:

 I imagine if Ghost wasn’t in Jon’s room he would of been out with Jon with the ensuing chaos of Wun Wun going on. Elaborating on this Ghost has before sensed danger and was acting up prior to the attack on Jon which could be attributed to Marsh’s plan.

I imagine if Jon actually had a few guards with him at all times  Ghost’s absence would not leave Jon vulnerable to getting killed.

 

7 hours ago, Starkz said:

Marsh killing Jon was very extreme and it’s not easy to predict extremities. Jeor was killed by criminals not a high ranking member of the NW. Jon is in his Castle, surrounded by hundreds of his men sworn to the NW, not walking through a dank alley.

Yes Jon is at castle Black surrounded by men sworn  to the watch-the organization that they see under threat by Jon’s radical policies.  Their duty is to the watch first and foremost. Not just Jon. The watch. Jeor was killed by his own men, after they were put in a situation to which they thought they would all die if they followed Mormont. They were no more criminals up to their mutiny than those hundreds of men at Castle Black. 

Its not extreme to think men who swore to protect the watch would be willing kill a “traitor in order to protect it. It’s common sense. 

Hell when Jon ordered the execution of Slynt until Allister stepped aside, it looked very possible if someone made one wrong move a massive brawl would break out. The idea of him being totally reasonable in not seeing a violent opposition to his radical policies is ludicrous. 

Lord commander Jon lacked empathy in regards to his brothers. He made a mistake.

 

7 hours ago, Starkz said:

IThe situation with the Wildlings is very similar to the situation in Meereen with slavery. Their are people in Meereen that are never going to accept a slavery free Meereen, just as members of the NW wont accept the Wildlings. Marsh hasn’t accepted any decision Jon has made and seems to be biased towards every single thing he does telling him to do the opposite, how can you work with a man like that? A good leader has to and does make tough decisions. Bringing the Wildlings South is a difficult decision, but the right one. Jon giving a speech/speeches of acceptance of the Wildlings isn’t going to change anyone’s mind. Seeing is believing. Integrating the Wildlings into the NW and integrating them with the NW is what will lead to their acceptance, not Jon telling people to. Now with Marsh’s actions, everything has imploded and hopefully Jon will be able to recover everything. When Jon comes to, I imagine Jon and Ghost will be rather inseparable.

 

Marsh,Pyke, and Malister are the only voices the brotherhood is actually hearing. Words are important. Jon could push, wildlings in the ranks of the brotherhood, that does not mean when tragedy befalls the idea of unity being more popular; hell Jon himself worries of the wildlings renegaing, and they’ve definitely seen wights, hell the Weeper is a legit position to absorb the the majority of support from the free folk as opposed to Tormund who would seek to work with the brotherhood. The common Nightswatchmen needs to hear Jon’s side. He needs to be the one actually address their concerns not just people like Marsh and Pyke and Malister who genuinely do not think Jon’s policies to be a good idea. Is all feeling of resent towards the wildlings going to dissipate after a few speechs. No. But actually giving a counter argument to his opponents nents may help make it easier to some brothers to accept the people who were were a few moments ago trying to kill them are going to be people they work with. Seriously, you don’t think a commanding officer’s words immediately after the US integrated the armed forces would not have impacted the treatment of soldiers of color in their unit? 

I imagine Jon being unable to continue leading the watch anymore either because broke his vows(to which he does say his venture to war with House Bolton would mean-don’t imagine he’d the gaul to try to resume leadership after forswearing his vows), or his died(to which was probable given the risks he’s taking), would not be so disastrous(well in at least the few people who aren’t against his policies), for the watch. 

[Starkz]

11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If? It’s not if. The position  Lord Steward is not a lifetime appointment. It’s a position granted by the lord commander.  It doesn’t matter if a lord Steward has served 60 years, even if someone whose been in the watch a day became lord commander, that lord commander could take the position and give it to whoever he wants.  Marsh himself went to Jon when the guy ascended to the position of Lord commander to ask if Jon would allow him to continue being lord Steward. 

Marsh’s support did not make him invulnerable. Hell Allister who did have Marsh(and by extension yes his supporting cast)  in his corner and was in the watch since Jon was a a babe. He was easily Jon enough dealt with by Jon by sending him on a ranging. Jon did not similar with Marsh because he failed to recognize the threat that was blantant in the man and thought it more beneficial to keep him at his current position. 

He made a mistake. 

 

From Jon’s POV these are men who’ve made clear they see him as a traitor whose going to get them all killed and the watch, the very organization they swore to protect and serve destroyed.  

I imagine if Jon actually had a few guards with him at all times  Ghost’s absence would not leave Jon vulnerable to getting killed.

 

Yes Jon is at castle Black surrounded by men sworn  to the watch-the organization that they see under threat by Jon’s radical policies.  Their duty is to the watch first and foremost. Not just Jon. The watch. Jeor was killed by his own men, after they were put in a situation to which they thought they would all die if they followed Mormont. They were no more criminals up to their mutiny than those hundreds of men at Castle Black. 

Its not extreme to think men who swore to protect the watch would be willing kill a “traitor in order to protect it. It’s common sense. 

Hell when Jon ordered the execution of Slynt until Allister stepped aside, it looked very possible if someone made one wrong move a massive brawl would break out. The idea of him being totally reasonable in not seeing a violent opposition to his radical policies is ludicrous. 

Lord commander Jon lacked empathy in regards to his brothers. He made a mistake.

 

Marsh,Pyke, and Malister are the only voices the brotherhood is actually hearing. Words are important. Jon could push, wildlings in the ranks of the brotherhood, that does not mean when tragedy befalls the idea of unity being more popular; hell Jon himself worries of the wildlings renegaing, and they’ve definitely seen wights, hell the Weeper is a legit position to absorb the the majority of support from the free folk as opposed to Tormund who would seek to work with the brotherhood. The common Nightswatchmen needs to hear Jon’s side. He needs to be the one actually address their concerns not just people like Marsh and Pyke and Malister who genuinely do not think Jon’s policies to be a good idea. Is all feeling of resent towards the wildlings going to dissipate after a few speechs. No. But actually giving a counter argument to his opponents nents may help make it easier to some brothers to accept the people who were were a few moments ago trying to kill them are going to be people they work with. Seriously, you don’t think a commanding officer’s words immediately after the US integrated the armed forces would not have impacted the treatment of soldiers of color in their unit? 

I imagine Jon being unable to continue leading the watch anymore either because broke his vows(to which he does say his venture to war with House Bolton would mean-don’t imagine he’d the gaul to try to resume leadership after forswearing his vows), or his died(to which was probable given the risks he’s taking), would not be so disastrous(well in at least the few people who aren’t against his policies), for the watch. 

I could go back and forth with you for ages, so we’ll just have to agree to disagree. Killing Jon at this point isn’t going to protect or save the Watch. Had they killed him earlier before the Wildlings were allowed through the situation would be different. At this point with Jon planning on stopping Ramsay and with the Wildlings already through the Wall killing Jon hurts the Watch far more than letting him go South.

[Varysblackfyre321]

21 hours ago, Starkz said:

Killing Jon at this point isn’t going to protect or save the Watch. Had they killed him earlier before the Wildlings were allowed through the situation would be different. At this point with Jon planning on stopping Ramsay and with the Wildlings already through the Wall killing Jon hurts the Watch far more than letting him go South.

Yeah, this isn’t really responding to anything I’ve said in this thread like at all. I made no claim so far in this specific thread on Marsh’s killing of Jon to be right or wrong. You might as well say Tyrion is as big a scumbag as Janos Slynt-I May or may not agree with such a claim but it still would have no bearing on what I’ve said in this thread so far. My points were Jon should have tried to talking to his followers the necessity of allowing the wildlings-even Scum like Tormund and the Weeper-through instead of just letting the only people in authority they hear, say how this is a bad idea, that he should have had 24/7 protection, should have been trying to get someone who actually agrees with his policies in the best position to actually succeed him should he die and should have dismissed Marsh(which yes he could have done-it’s ridiculous to pretend otherwise), after his accusation of treason. Jon made mistakes. Ones he could have easily avoided. You do not need to be a genius to know the people who think you’re a traitor and who think what you’re doing is going to destroy the organization they swore to protect and serve foremost and kill them all may opt to try killing you. Given Jon’s experiences with having been attacked, attacking, being threatened, and threatening his brothers it becomes less forgivable he did nothing in preparation of a violent backlash to his actions.  He should know better. He should have  been more empathetic.

[norwaywolf123]

I feel that Jon is to young and inexperienced to become some kind heroic figure. If Jon does get such a position, i think it may have less to do with his capabillity and more to do with his ancestry or supposed ancestry. 

[Starkz]

16 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

I feel that Jon is to young and inexperienced to become some kind heroic figure. If Jon does get such a position, i think it may have less to do with his capabillity and more to do with his ancestry or supposed ancestry. 

GRRM refers to Jon as a hero and the character he’d like to be.

[Lollygag]

40 minutes ago, norwaywolf123 said:

I feel that Jon is to young and inexperienced to become some kind heroic figure. If Jon does get such a position, i think it may have less to do with his capabillity and more to do with his ancestry or supposed ancestry.  

I understand what you're saying as I also have an issue with the ages of the characters, but Jon, Theon, Sansa, Dany, Arya, Sam and Bran (not to mention non-POVs) are all about the same age or younger than Jon. That would be quite a list of people who don't do heroic things if age is the factor. Five year gap problems, I guess.

 

[Lollygag]

29 minutes ago, Starkz said:

GRRM refers to Jon as a hero and the character he’d like to be.

I think he'll land more in the hero category than not, but keep in mind that characters tend to switch between heroes and villains in this series. Jaime, Tyrion, Theon stand out. A lot of other characters seem to be on pivot points and might flip. Hero/villain now doesn't necessarily mean that's what they'll be later.

[chrisdaw]

Jon's role is to become KITN then invade the south and win and forge a peace that motivates a realm to fight united against the others. Look to the Young Dragon and Young Wolf for the most straightforward outline of him conquering the south. The Hour of the Wolf and Torrhen the King that Knelt for his diplomatic feats.

And he will be the most heroic character of the series. That was set in stone when he refused to kill that old man when he was with the wildlings. It will show through when he refuses to let Dany sacrifice her (and his) child to try and wake a dragon.