What is Jon Snow capable of: Protector of North, King of Westeros, Dany's consort or Hand of the King?

[Eli Cross]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:56 AM, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

You don't think Jon can learn from his mistakes and not repeat them?

You're not asking me but I will answer anyway.  

I don't think Jon can learn from his mistakes because he doesn't want to change.  Repeat the scenario with the realm hanging in the balance and Arya on the other side.  Jon will choose Arya and the Starks over the safety of the realm.  He doesn't deserve to be in a position of power.  He's too partial of a person.  Putting wildlings in positions of authority over his sworn brothers without adequate explanation is beyond stupidity.  Killing a sworn brother over a petty argument while letting Mance off the hook for his crimes is craziness.   

[Lollygag]

53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Jon's role is to become KITN then invade the south and win and forge a peace that motivates a realm to fight united against the others. Look to the Young Dragon and Young Wolf for the most straightforward outline of him conquering the south. The Hour of the Wolf and Torrhen the King that Knelt for his diplomatic feats.

And he will be the most heroic character of the series. That was set in stone when he refused to kill that old man when he was with the wildlings. It will show through when he refuses to let Dany sacrifice her (and his) child to try and wake a dragon.

Jon is more concerned with Craster being generally dishonorable rather than reflecting the horror of the fact that he's murdering babies, his own no less. When Jeor tells Jon they have different battles to fight, Jon thinks Other wars. Yes. I must remember and then simply changes the subject. Jon being upset rather than pragmatic and dismissive would have been better set up for this.

ACOK Jon III

"My lord," Jon said quietly as the wood closed in around them once more. "Craster has no sheep. Nor any sons."

Mormont made no answer.

"At Winterfell one of the serving women told us stories," Jon went on. "She used to say that there were wildlings who would lay with the Others to birth half-human children."

"Hearth tales. Does Craster seem less than human to you?"

In half a hundred ways. "He gives his sons to the wood."

A long silence. Then: "Yes." And "Yes," the raven muttered, strutting. "Yes, yes, yes."

"You knew?"

"Smallwood told me. Long ago. All the rangers know, though few will talk of it."

"Did my uncle know?"

"All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."

His wives must offer different prayers, Jon thought.

"How is it you came to know this?" the Old Bear asked him. "From one of Craster's wives?"

"Yes, my lord," Jon confessed. "I would sooner not tell you which. She was frightened and wanted help."

"The wide world is full of people wanting help, Jon. Would that some could find the courage to help themselves. Craster sprawls in his loft even now, stinking of wine and lost to sense. On his board below lies a sharp new axe. Were it me, I'd name it "Answered Prayer' and make an end."

Yes. Jon thought of Gilly. She and her sisters. They were nineteen, and Craster was one, but . . .

"Yet it would be an ill day for us if Craster died. Your uncle could tell you of the times Craster's Keep made the difference between life and death for our rangers."

"My father . . ." He hesitated.

"Go on, Jon. Say what you would say."

"My father once told me that some men are not worth having," Jon finished. "A bannerman who is brutal or unjust dishonors his liege lord as well as himself."

"Craster is his own man. He has sworn us no vows. Nor is he subject to our laws. Your heart is noble, Jon, but learn a lesson here. We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."

Other wars. Yes. I must remember. "Jarman Buckwell said I might have need of my sword soon."

 

[chrisdaw]

8 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Jon is more concerned with Craster being generally dishonorable rather than reflecting the horror of the fact that he's murdering babies, his own no less. When Jeor tells Jon they have different battles to fight, Jon thinks Other wars. Yes. I must remember and then simply changes the subject. Jon being upset rather than pragmatic and dismissive would have been better set up for this.

No, the difference is it is not his responsibility. Not his realm, not his child and not his call to make. There are many many set ups echoing through Ned to Jon, and this is the one time it falls on the side of letting it go.

The question of if it is his responsibility to save the child will be central, and made more poignant because he will have never wanted this bastard and have been tricked into the act of making it. And the point is foreshadowed through Jon's arc, no more than here.

Quote

"No, but—"

"You're bastard-born yourself. And if Ygritte does not want a child, she will go to some woods witch and drink a cup o' moon tea. You do not come into it, once the seed is planted."

Once the seed is planted, the child is no more his responsibility . . . right? Dany can do whatever she would with it . . . it's not his concern . . . right?

Obviously the answer is no, its his child and he shouldn't let the dragon bitch burn it, regardless of if doing so might save the world. But getting to that no is the arc.

[Lollygag]

7 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

No, the difference is it is not his responsibility. Not his realm, not his child and not his call to make. There are many many set ups echoing through Ned to Jon, and this is the one time it falls on the side of letting it go.

The question of if it is his responsibility to save the child will be central, and made more poignant because he will have never wanted this bastard and have been tricked into the act of making it. And the point is foreshadowed through Jon's arc, no more than here.

Once the seed is planted, the child is no more his responsibility . . . right? Dany can do whatever she would with it . . . it's not his concern . . . right?

Obviously the answer is no, its his child and he shouldn't let the dragon bitch burn it, regardless of if doing so might save the world. But getting to that no is the arc.

Sorry if I was unclear. You said

1 hour ago, chrisdaw said:

And he will be the most heroic character of the series. That was set in stone when he refused to kill that old man when he was with the wildlings. It will show through when he refuses to let Dany sacrifice her (and his) child to try and wake a dragon.

I meant to say that it doesn't show heroism to me that Jon was pragmatic about sacrificing others' children but is against sacrificing his own. Not his responsibility isn't an excuse.

 

[chrisdaw]

17 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I meant to say that it doesn't show heroism to me that Jon was pragmatic about sacrificing others' children but is against sacrificing his own. Not his responsibility isn't an excuse.

ok

[Starkz]

3 hours ago, Lollygag said:

 

 

I meant to say that it doesn't show heroism to me that Jon was pragmatic about sacrificing others' children but is against sacrificing his own. Not his responsibility isn't an excuse.

 

Obviously Jon doesn’t like it or supports it, its just that there is nothing he can do about it. After finding out he tells Jeor whom sees that Jon wants him to stop Craster and explicitly says no.

[Starkz]

4 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I think he'll land more in the hero category than not, but keep in mind that characters tend to switch between heroes and villains in this series. Jaime, Tyrion, Theon stand out. A lot of other characters seem to be on pivot points and might flip. Hero/villain now doesn't necessarily mean that's what they'll be later.

The fact that GRRM refers to him as a hero, and the character he’d like to be, is evident in and of itself enough to deduce that Jon is a hero and always will be.

[Starkz]

3 hours ago, Sire de Maletroit said:

You're not asking me but I will answer anyway.  

I don't think Jon can learn from his mistakes because he doesn't want to change.  Repeat the scenario with the realm hanging in the balance and Arya on the other side.  Jon will choose Arya and the Starks over the safety of the realm.  He doesn't deserve to be in a position of power.  He's too partial of a person.  Putting wildlings in positions of authority over his sworn brothers without adequate explanation is beyond stupidity.  Killing a sworn brother over a petty argument while letting Mance off the hook for his crimes is craziness.   

Jon sent Mance to help a girl that was alone in the Wilderness that he believed was Arya. Jon executed Janos for insubordination and undermining him after giving him multiple chances. Disobeying direct orders from your superior isn’t a petty argument. 

[Lollygag]

Just now, Starkz said:

The fact that GRRM refers to him as a hero, and the character he’d like to be, is evident in and of itself enough to deduce that Jon is a hero and always will be.

I'd need that exact quote to share your certainty. Otherwise, I have to think that GRRM projecting this out to the end of the series rather than referring just to what was published up to that point would be an uncharacteristic major spoiler from GRRM.

2 minutes ago, Starkz said:

Obviously Jon doesn’t like it or supports it, its just that there is nothing he can do about it. After finding out he tells Jeor whom sees that Jon wants him to stop Craster and explicitly says no.

Eh - reread that. He doesn't like it or support it, but Jon's also not angsting about this much. He just shrugs it off and changes the subject. Not a reaction one would hope for when the series hero finds out that babies are being murdered.

 

[Starkz]

6 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I'd need that exact quote to share your certainty. Otherwise, I have to think that GRRM projecting this out to the end of the series rather than referring just to what was published up to that point would be an uncharacteristic major spoiler from GRRM.

 

 

Which character do you feel most closely resembles you? Which character in the story would you most like to be? And which character would you fear becoming?

The character I’m probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I’d fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Starkz said:

Which character do you feel most closely resembles you? Which character in the story would you most like to be? And which character would you fear becoming?

The character I’m probably most like in real life is Samwell Tarly. Good old Sam. And the character I’d want to be? Well who wouldn’t want to be Jon Snow — the brooding, Byronic, romantic hero whom all the girls love. Theon [Greyjoy] is the one I’d fear becoming. Theon wants to be Jon Snow, but he can’t do it. He keeps making the wrong decisions. He keeps giving into to his own selfish, worst impulses.

Do you have the source for this? Whom all the girls love isn't book Jon.

[Starkz]

2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Do you have the source for this? Whom all the girls love isn't book Jon.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

Im pretty sure GRRM is referring to girl fans not characters but I’m not sure.

[Lollygag]

Just now, Starkz said:

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2017/08/22/fantasy-needs-magic

Im pretty sure GRRM is referring to girl fans not characters but I’m not sure.

This is a pretty show-centric interview and I can't tell what the question and answer exactly intends. This description is a great fit for hot, angsty  Westerosi Jesus from that other thing. Jon though, not so much.

 

[Starkz]

5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

This is a pretty show-centric interview and I can't tell what the question and answer exactly intends. This description is a great fit for hot, angsty  Westerosi Jesus from that other thing. Jon though, not so much.

 

. Now you’re in denial? They ask questions about both the show and books which are relataively synonymous. George judges his characters as they are in the books, not the show.

 

Which character in the STORY would you most like to be?

[Lollygag]

14 minutes ago, Starkz said:

. Now you’re in denial? They ask questions about both the show and books which are relataively synonymous. George judges his characters as they are in the books, not the show.

You just said that George might be describing Jon as all the ladies love him as being from fans, not the books, but now you've changed it and said GRRM only talks about characters from a book perspective.

Bottom line - that interview proves nothing either way because there's no certain clarity on exactly who he's talking about, There's big problems applying this description to book Jon. Book Jon's popularity with the ladies of the fandom independent from hot Westerosi Jesus is deeply questionable. GRRM switches characters back and forth between doing villainous things and then heroic things and may do so again (your personal conviction is not proof), and GRRM giving away Jon's fate as a hero of the series would be uncharacteristic. It's much more likely that he's speaking about characters as of what's been published at the time.

 

[Starkz]

11 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

You just said that George might be describing Jon as all the ladies love him as being from fans, not the books, but now you've changed it and said GRRM only talks about characters from a book perspective.

Bottom line - that interview proves nothing either way because there's no certain clarity on exactly who he's talking about, There's big problems applying this description to book Jon. GRRM switches characters back and forth between doing villainous things and then heroic things and may do so again (your personal conviction is not proof), and GRRM giving away Jon's fate as a hero of the series would be uncharacteristic. It's much more likely that he's speaking about characters as of what's been published at the time.

 

... You do realize book characters have fans too.. right? Reader that like and support certain characters... aka fans? GRRM refers to Jon as the character he’d like to be and as a hero that’s the bottom line. The question asked was about the story, not the show. The first thing GRRM says is how he’s had the easiest time writing Tyrion. GRRM is referring to the books, not the show.

[Lollygag]

5 minutes ago, Starkz said:

... You do realize book characters have fans too.. right? Reader that like and support certain characters... aka fans? GRRM refers to Jon as the character he’d like to be and as a hero that’s the bottom line. The question asked was about the story, not the show. The first thing GRRM says is how he’s had the easiest time writing Tyrion. GRRM is rendering to the books, not the show.

Again, explain how all the ladies love him applies to book Jon. Either in series or in the fandom.

 

 

[Starkz]

Just now, Lollygag said:

Again, explain how all the ladies love him applies to book Jon. Either in series or in the fandom.

 

 

Female readers like his character, it’s that simple. You’re reaching tremendously on this and displaying quite a bit of ignorance to GRRM.  

[Lollygag]

Just now, Starkz said:

Female readers like his character, it’s that simple. You’re reaching tremendously on this and displaying quite a bit of ignorance to GRRM.  

Sure, statistically some female readers (not all and definitely not enough to make that generalization) like him. Just like statistically some female readers like any given character. But I don't see anything on the forum, fandom or in the books which makes all the ladies love him make any sense whatsoever when discussing strictly book Jon.

That description doesn't work for book Jon. If it's that simple, demonstrate it. With proof.

[Starkz]

1 minute ago, Lollygag said:

Sure, statistically some female readers (not all and definitely not enough to make that generalization) like him. Just like statistically some female readers like any given character. But I don't see anything on the forum, fandom or in the books which makes all the ladies love him make any sense whatsoever when discussing strictly book Jon.

That description doesn't work for book Jon. If it's that simple, demonstrate it. With proof.

Ok I’m done debating this, if you can’t accept what GRRM says I can’t help you. GRRM refers to him as a hero. It’s rather obvious GRRM is being general in his answer, not literal. It’s impossible for the comment “all”, ladies or fans to be true, whatever you want to believe. As I’ve already said, the question was about the story and GRRM first sentence referenced the books and continued to. If GRRM was referring to the show only, he would of said so in his answer.