Platypus Rex Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Okay I guess you all remember the scene where Summer sees, in the vicinity of Winterfell, a winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. This "dragon" has been called the "Dragon of Winterfell" by some fans, and has been associated with theories that a dragon is or was hiding in the crypts of Winterfell ... but I don't want to get into any such specifics. I just want to ask, how many of you believe that Summer saw an actual, literal, dragon? Thanks in advance. Edit: 16 to 1 in favor of "No", so far, as of Oct. 30, 2018. 38 to 8 in favor of "No", so far. Supported by: Legitimate_Bastard, rustythesmith, TPTWP Timmet, Remiem, kleevedge, Gertrude, Wolfkin, sweetsunray. Opposed by: Lady Barbrey, Doran Martell's son, Euron III Greyjoy, White Ravens, Amris, rotting sea cow, Lord Vance II, Free Northman Reborn, The hairy bear, Megavora, Lord Lannister, Widowmaker 811, Moiraine Sedi, The Mother of the Others, Irresistable, Bowen Marsh, Here's Looking At You,..., Wm Portnow, norwaywolf123, Anck Su Namun, Sea Dragon, the trees have eyes, Unacosamedarisa, Lost Melnibonean, kissdbyfire, Makk, desire, Slaver's Dread, The Three Eyed Crow, zandru, Clegane'sPup, The Fattest Leech, Valyrian Lance, dmfn, By Odin's Beard, Rose of Red Lake, Lady Anna, Ibbison from Ibben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Varys Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 I like the idea but I'm not really sure it is the case. The whole stuff about Vermax laying dragon eggs at the Winterfell really gets things going. The burning of Winterfell, the many people who were killed there could certainly have hatched a dormant dragon egg. And the charred meat from the burned corpses could have sustained it until it was large enough to fly away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Lord Varys said: I like the idea but I'm not really sure it is the case. The whole stuff about Vermax laying dragon eggs at the Winterfell really gets things going. The burning of Winterfell, the many people who were killed there could certainly have hatched a dormant dragon egg. And the charred meat from the burned corpses could have sustained it until it was large enough to fly away. So, would that make you a tentative "yes"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 37 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: Okay I guess you all remember the scene where Summer sees, in the vicinity of Winterfell, a winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. This "dragon" has been called the "Dragon of Winterfell" by some fans, and has been associated with theories that a dragon is or was hiding in the crypts of Winterfell ... but I don't want to get into any such specifics. I just want to ask, how many of you believe that Summer saw an actual, literal, dragon? Thanks in advance. Not a real live dragon (a newly born one would be tiny, a huge flesh and blood one unmistakable). But regardless if it was real, a comet in smoke, a symbol, or a spirit, a snake in the sky shouts Winterfell+dragon to me. Winterfell is the only actively geothermic area on continental Westeros we know about. We also know from the World Book that there were dragons in Westeros once. So where would they likely have lived? At the Winterfell hot springs of course, even before a castle was built, in underground caverns, helping explain why Winterfell never leveled its land to build. So deep in the oldest of the Winterfell crypts, close to hot spring caverns, will we find ancestors with direwolf bones, or with dragon bones? Something defeated the Others the last time. And dragon steel was very likely dragonbone, so where would one be likely to find it? Who knows, if Jon's a necromancer as some suspect, he might even be able to raise dead dragons from stone to fight the Others. My specs can go wild, but Winterfell+dragons is solid. Something will come of it. But a no from me, I don't think it was a real live Dragon, I think it was the spirit of Pendragon, the Last Hero, a Stark/Dayne ancestor who rode dragons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 30 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said: Not a real live dragon (a newly born one would be tiny, a huge flesh and blood one unmistakable). But regardless if it was real, a comet in smoke, a symbol, or a spirit, a snake in the sky shouts Winterfell+dragon to me. Winterfell is the only actively geothermic area on continental Westeros we know about. We also know from the World Book that there were dragons in Westeros once. So where would they likely have lived? At the Winterfell hot springs of course, even before a castle was built, in underground caverns, helping explain why Winterfell never leveled its land to build. So deep in the oldest of the Winterfell crypts, close to hot spring caverns, will we find ancestors with direwolf bones, or with dragon bones? Something defeated the Others the last time. And dragon steel was very likely dragonbone, so where would one be likely to find it? Who knows, if Jon's a necromancer as some suspect, he might even be able to raise dead dragons from stone to fight the Others. My specs can go wild, but Winterfell+dragons is solid. Something will come of it. But a no from me, I don't think it was a real live Dragon, I think it was the spirit of Pendragon, the Last Hero, a Stark/Dayne ancestor who rode dragons. I'll count this one as a "no". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 59 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: Okay I guess you all remember the scene where Summer sees, in the vicinity of Winterfell, a winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. This "dragon" has been called the "Dragon of Winterfell" by some fans, and has been associated with theories that a dragon is or was hiding in the crypts of Winterfell ... but I don't want to get into any such specifics. I just want to ask, how many of you believe that Summer saw an actual, literal, dragon? Thanks in advance. No, summer saw a giant gout of flame. Dragons have never been described as winged snakes afaik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron III Greyjoy Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I'm going to say no, I feel like if a dragon did fly out of Winterfell that day then there would've been numerous sighting at this point, or at least rumors about something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 2 hours ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said: I'm going to say no, I feel like if a dragon did fly out of Winterfell that day then there would've been numerous sighting at this point, or at least rumors about something. Rumors are not a problem. The maesters would just scoff at those. The real problem is that the smallfolk would use their smartphones to take videos of the dragon and post them on youtube. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I'm in the no camp. But I don't have anything concrete to offer regarding what it was that Summer saw in the sky. The biggest road block I have to believing that he saw a dragon is the lack of references to it from any humans. 7 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: Rumors are not a problem. The maesters would just scoff at those. The real problem is that the smallfolk would use their smartphones to take videos of the dragon and post them on youtube. Live streamed on the weirnet I would guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amris Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Summer did not see an actual dragon. What Summer did see was a short glimpse of smoke and fire in the shape of a dragon over the burning first keep (and thus over the Crypts of Winterfell) and it is meant as foreshadowing of an eventual Targ ID reveal at that location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 That scene has always confused me a lot. I even stopped thinking about it, but now I have the mind a bit clearer. First, at the symbolic level the dragon that Summer saw represents Jon. A dragon hidden in Winterfell. Now. I think the egg hatched, at least metaphysically, but because there was nobody to claim the dragon, its fiery spirit flew away. And that is what Summer saw. The egg is physically undamaged but it's now a dud. This should play a role once Stannis gets hands on that egg and attempts to hatch the dragon by burning Shireen and nothing happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Vance II Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 No. I'd love to believe there was a hidden dragon in Winterfell, but I just can't square it with the evidence, or lack there of. The chances that a full-grown dragon slipped away and somehow wriggled its way to some deep depth of Winterfell to lay eggs that no one ever found is just too much a stretch. Symbolically saw a "dragon?" sure, but literally, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirArthur Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 26 minutes ago, Lord Vance II said: No. I'd love to believe there was a hidden dragon in Winterfell, but I just can't square it with the evidence, or lack there of. The chances that a full-grown dragon slipped away and somehow wriggled its way to some deep depth of Winterfell to lay eggs that no one ever found is just too much a stretch. Symbolically saw a "dragon?" sure, but literally, no. Unless there is a second entrance, no arguable healthy grown dragon would fit through the door to the crypts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 No. It was symbolic. Probably in reference to Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Clearly not. It's just George trying to describe how a wolf that has never witnessed a fire of this magnitude would see it. In the same paragraph that the "winged snake" is described, Summer also sees "men, many men". He also mentions that "Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. No beast was as noisy as man." If it was an actual dragon rising from Winterfell, hundreds of people would have seen it, including Ramsay, the Walders, and all the Bolton men-at-arms. Something that huge would have been mentioned in the next books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 12 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: No, summer saw a giant gout of flame. Dragons have never been described as winged snakes afaik To be fair, giant gouts of flame have never been described as winged snakes either, at least afaik. And of course, dragons ARE compared to snakes or serpents in the text. That dragons also have wings, is surely beyond dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Platypus Rex Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 Wow! 11 to 0 against, so far. Is no one willing to admit they believe in an actual dragon? Are you all afraid the maesters will scoff? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Lance Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 13 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said: No, summer saw a giant gout of flame. Dragons have never been described as winged snakes afaik 23 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said: To be fair, giant gouts of flame have never been described as winged snakes either, at least afaik. And of course, dragons ARE compared to snakes or serpents in the text. That dragons also have wings, is surely beyond dispute. And swords are only described as man claws by Wolves. Same as armor being described as hardskin. It seems as though a direwolf could describe a dragon or a burning banner or a plume of flame or a burning tower or flaming merlon as a winged snake roaring fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megorova Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 No, not a dragon. I think, that it was a shadow, something similar to what Melisandre uses to assassinate people. Only this shadow was sent to Winterfell to spy, not to kill, and it was created by Shiera Seastar, not by Melisandre. Shiera Seastar is a shadowbinder Quaithe, and she is also the Three-Eyed Crow, so her shadow-dragon was there as a spy. Possibly watching over Bran. Or it was hiding in Winterfell since 283 or 284, since little Jon was brought there. That - "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire" <- winged beast is Jon Snow, smoking tower is Tower of Joy, and shadow fire is Shiera's protective spell, that she created to watch over Jon. Though that shadow for some reason got stuck at Winterfell, probably was binded there by winter magic of Starks' heart tree. So it was stuck there, until Winterfell burned, and that shadow got free. Or something like that, but definitely not an actual dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 It would really seem to undermine the miracle of Dany hatching her eggs to just have other dragons start popping up all over the place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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