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Platypus Rex

Poll: Did Summer See a Dragon?

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3 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Am I seeing right?

Did the OP really ressurect a two decade+ old debunked theory, structure it as a poll, and then go on to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his preconceived notions?

I'll count that as a "No."

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I came across this passage today and since it seems to relate to the topic I'll share it here.

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Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. "A queen lived there?" asked Ygritte.

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

"I have never seen a dragon." (ASOS Jon V)

 

 

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Am I seeing right?

Did the OP really ressurect a two decade+ old debunked theory, structure it as a poll, and then go on to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his preconceived notions?

In what way is the theory debunked? Neither position seems rooted firmly enough to call the matter settled. You may consider it settled but the fact that your opinion is in alignment with the majority opinion in no way makes it more factual than any other opinion. We're free to think for ourselves. This comment seems like an attempt to silence opinions you disagree with by leveraging the social advantage of consensus to shut down discussion about the topic entirely.

There is nothing wrong with talking about a topic that has already been talked about before. That's a ridiculous implication, especially considering we haven't seen a new book for the main series in years.

In case you haven't noticed, people are arguing against him too. It isn't a one sided assault like you're trying to portray. Argument is a positive thing when it's done with civility. Argument is simply discussion about a disagreement. Unless we're going to suggest that disagreement isn't worth discussing, which I think is one of the fundamental beliefs at the heart of a growing cancer in modern education and intellectual discussion, then arguing our notions--preconceived or post-conceived or otherwise--is exactly what we should be doing.

Edited by rustythesmith

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7 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Am I seeing right?

Did the OP really ressurect a two decade+ old debunked theory, structure it as a poll, and then go on to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his preconceived notions?

When was it debunked? And.how? 

Also, every topic under the sun has been discussed endlessly at this point. Are you suggesting all discussion and speculation and theorising should stop completely, even though the vast majority of mysteries and plot resolutions remain unsolved? 

And for the record, I don't for a second believe Summer saw an actual dragon. 

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On 11/27/2018 at 7:18 AM, the trees have eyes said:

It really doesn't.  Whether you commonly see a bear or have never seen a bear you are aware that bears exist in large numbers in throughout the world.  Everyone in Westeros knows (or believes if you prefer) there have been no dragons for 300 years and no one anywhere in the world believes dragons exist any more until 3 are miraculously (magically) hatched.  In no way can dragons and bears be seen as analogous.

Dragons exist near Asshai and always have. There are plenty of examples throughout real world history where people did not believe tales of strange beasts in far away lands. There's nothing wrong with the bear analogy. Some regions have bears and some don't.

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No, man.  The whole point is that Summer is not a reliable witness.  There is no credible direct evidence, merely a passage that you interpret as a wolf seeing a dragon and I interpret as a wolf seeing a burning building with a nod to Jon being a Targaryen "dragon" hidden in WF but now gone.

If it isn't too much trouble could you direct me to a single instance of unreliable narrator in any direwolf POV? As far as I can tell the direwolves are more reliable than the humans. There are several instances where the direwolves demonstrate prophetic capabilities, a complete understanding of their owner's language and intentions as well as those of people who intend to cause harm to the Starks, directly or indirectly.

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There are a number of eye witness accounts of both Nessie and Bigfoot, even some grainy footage of both (Nessie footage confirmed to be a hoax, Bigfoot footage I am not sure).

That's true, and many of those accounts turn out to be real animals that were either genetically freakish or mis-perceived due to optic conditions like darkness, reflections, optical illusions and things like that that are comparable to what we're seeing in Summer's fire and smoke scene. So unless you're suggesting that Summer is aware that the reader occupies his POV and is trying to hoax the reader, which I don't think you are, then you must be suggesting that, unlike most bigfoot and nessie sightings, what Summer saw was not some animal he mistook for a dragon. It was smoke and flames entirely. I hope that explains why the bigfoot argument isn't particularly convincing to me, considering that Summer growled at the not-a-dragon.

If the dragon is representative of Jon Snow, then Summer growling at the dragon doesn't seem to align with that idea either. The direwolves growl at enemies of Starks, not Starks. Summer is growling at a symbolic representation of a Stark, so the credibility of the symbolism is weakened when I ask the question: Why would GRRM write Summer this way if the dragon is meant to represent a Stark? There's a mismatch that contradicts a thematic pattern that is well established throughout the story.

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Scientists dismiss these claims because they are not reliable, there is no credible direct evidence and they have alternative explanations that are more convincing. That is EXACTLY why I bring these up as Summer's glimpse is a perfect parallel and we readers (the scientists) should have no trouble reaching the same conclusions.

Scientists don't dismiss the claims. They investigate the first one with enthusiasm. They still investigate such sightings when they seem credible, but after many decades without solid findings and a bunch of hoaxes they have become very good at identifying when a sighting is the consequence of a person's ignorance about wildlife or intentional deception, and when a sighting is worth investigating more closely.

To use your comparison, Summer's dragon sighting is the first sighting. I'm in agreement with you that the appropriate response from we scientists is to behave like a scientists, which is to investigate the first sighting with enthusiasm.

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Then why have a poll?  It's your poll, man.  Looks like you were after affirmation and in the absence of affirmation you are going to stick to your guns and brand the people who disagree (a large majority btw) "lemmings".  Good lord.....

He didn't say the people are lemmings as far as I can tell. He said the logic you're employing is lemmings. I think lemmings are creatures that follow one another blindly. I wouldn't assume that is what you're doing because I think the not-a-dragon camp has enough good points to stand on and it's perfectly understandable to me why you are standing on them. But regardless of the lemming characterization I think the line of reasoning you're using for some of your points is faulty.

If I remember correctly the OP didn't chime in with his own arguments until several pages into the discussion. You seem to be suggesting that the appropriate response in the face of majority disagreement is to change your mind to be in alignment with the majority. That kind of fallacious reasoning might be the source of the lemming criticism. No amount of belief makes a fact.

Edited by rustythesmith

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48 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It is possible, but not a given. 

Well here is the quote I'm thinking of.

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.  (AGOT Bran III)

So I guess the debate we would need to have about this quote is very similar to the debate about Summer's dragon. Is Bran looking into the past? The future? Are the dragons metaphorical? Do they only exist in the vision? Is this a dream rather than a vision? To what extent do dreams or visions reflect reality? On and on it goes. The implication seems obvious to me that the dragons near Asshai are real and modern dragons.

But okay, sure. The story is written in a postmodern style and we have to behave like all interpretations are equally valid. Martin has created a pretty fascinating fan environment, whether intentional or not. I'm noticing increasingly that the way in which any given reader interprets the ambiguous or fantastic parts of the story has a closer relationship with the individual's personality than with the story. For example I think dragons are cool and it turns out that I'm excited to find a hidden dragon in the story. As a result I find it easy to make a case for why a purposely ambiguous dragon might be real. My friend thinks dragons are stupid and he finds it easy to make a case for why a purposely ambiguous dragon might not be real.

The results are that the potential for cognitive bias is exposed on both sides, the temptation of cognitive bias is readily available on both sides, and we're left in a situation where agreement on the subject is impossible and forced to face the dilemma of what to do about it. To wage violent war through ad hominem attacks, to draw borders and separate into tribes of thought, or to try to live peacefully together with our insoluble differences. It's the same dilemma the characters face with regards to magic and religion. So if writing is about making the reader feel what the character's feel, then well played George RR Martin.

The fundamental question in the fandom seems to me to be a question of whether Martin intends to wrap up the story by playing in to our expectations of fantasy, playing against them, or allowing this ambiguity to linger beyond the resolution into eternity.

Edited by rustythesmith

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14 minutes ago, rustythesmith said:

Well here is the quote I'm thinking of.

So I guess the debate we would need to have about this quote is very similar to the debate about Summer's dragon. Is Bran looking into the past? The future? Are the dragons metaphorical? Do they only exist in the vision? Is this a dream rather than a vision? To what extent do dreams or visions reflect reality? On and on it goes. The implication seems obvious to me that the dragons near Asshai are real and modern dragons.

Here are some older debates for reference...

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/77628-dragons-in-asshai/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/124894-are-there-dragons-in-asshai-if-not-what-does-bran-see/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/117689-dragons-around-asshai/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/87077-dragons-in-asshai/

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/101147-dragons-in-asshai/

For what it's worth, I used to think that dragons, like magic, faded but never completely went away.  It now seems to me that bit of Bran's coma dream was a foreshadowing of the hatching of Daenerys's dragons. 

Bran's vision here traces Daenerys's arc through Game and the birth of her dragons. The eggs ostensibly came from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai; that the dragons were stirring beneath the sunrise was a hint that they were about to hatch, and that the Targaryens were returning. 

 

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George RR really likes the "unreliable narrator" technique. By putting the chapters through various characters eyes, he can show us readers the innermost thoughts and feelings of those characters, as well as their ways of seeing and understanding things. The character is not always "right"!!  That's the "unreliable" part. A much-discussed example is "the unKiss". (And let's not talk about that anymore, okay?)

Thus, it seems unproductive to belabor the point as to whether an animal actually saw "a dragon." We'd be better off discussing in detail whether or not Winterfell Castle actually was a "cave" or how swords must surely be an outgrowth of human paws, because they're described as "claws." The Westerosi would also have to be a strange humanoid breed, with their actual SKINS made of steel, as opposed to wearing armor, because that's how the wolves describe it.

Unreliable narrator. The reader is expected to understand this.

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12 minutes ago, zandru said:

George RR really likes the "unreliable narrator" technique. By putting the chapters through various characters eyes, he can show us readers the innermost thoughts and feelings of those characters, as well as their ways of seeing and understanding things. The character is not always "right"!!  That's the "unreliable" part. A much-discussed example is "the unKiss". (And let's not talk about that anymore, okay?)

Thus, it seems unproductive to belabor the point as to whether an animal actually saw "a dragon." We'd be better off discussing in detail whether or not Winterfell Castle actually was a "cave" or how swords must surely be an outgrowth of human paws, because they're described as "claws." The Westerosi would also have to be a strange humanoid breed, with their actual SKINS made of steel, as opposed to wearing armor, because that's how the wolves describe it.

Unreliable narrator. The reader is expected to understand this.

Unreliable narrator, like everything else in the books, needs to exist in a way in which the reader is able to appreciate it. In order for it to be possible to appreciate any given instance of unreliable narration, the reliable narration has to exist somewhere else in the books. In the case of Sansa's kiss, we're able to compare the kiss in real time from an earlier book to the kiss in Sansa's memory in a later book, which is how we're able to identify Sansa's memory as unreliable narration and thus appreciate it.

Another example is when Arya mixes up east and west. We're able to trace her journey over several chapters and figure out which side of God's Eye she is traveling on, the east or the west side.

So in order for us to be justified in classifying Summer's dragon as unreliable narration, we need to find the place where the author provided irrefutable, concrete proof (an unkiss is never a kiss, east is never west) that it could not possibly have been a real dragon.

Edited by rustythesmith

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On 10/29/2018 at 7:04 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Okay I guess you all remember the scene where Summer sees, in the vicinity of Winterfell, a winged snake whose roar was a river of flame.

I still dunna understand why Theon & the dogs followed tracks out of the gate looking for the Stark kids. Seems to me the dogs would have picked up Bran, Rickon, Hodor, Meera, Jojen and Osha scents inside the compound. But as I read, outside the outer wall there were tracks of Hodor, the Reeds and paw prints. It seems that the wolves were running free --- but how did the Reed's and Hodor leave tracks outside the outer wall and end up inside the inner wall in the crypts?

A Clash of Kings - Theon IV     They assembled by the Hunter's Gate as the first pale rays of the sun brushed the top of the Bell Tower, their breath frosting in the cold morning air. Gelmarr had equipped himself with a longaxe whose reach would allow him to strike before the wolves were on him. The blade was heavy enough to kill with a single blow. <snip>    Eleven men, two boys, and a dozen dogs crossed the moat. Beyond the outer wall, the tracks were plain to read in the soft ground; the pawprints of the wolves, Hodor's heavy tread, the shallower marks left by the feet of the two Reeds./

Sadly, no one except Bran through Summer sees the great winged snake. I can actually see why people would interpret what Summer saw as a dragon. I did. I even got really excited when in SoS Bran via Summer saw a kite. I thought that was direwolf speak for a dragon. I was told a kite is a bird of prey.

So, my answer is no Summer did not see a dragon. Why? Because from CoK to DwD there are no other reports of anyone seeing a dragon flapping around in Westeros. AND in order for what Summer saw to be a dragon that would mean that there was a dormant dragon buried in the cold land of WF and that dragon was awakened by the extreme heat produced by the burning of WF.

People don't need to read further. It's merely the quotes of direwolf speak telling what Bran saw through Summer.

A Clash of Kings - Bran VII   He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to slaver.     Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.    All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and a crash that made the earth jump under his feet. Dogs barked and whined and horses screamed in terror. Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. No beast was as noisy as man. He pricked up his ears and listened, and his brother growled at every sound. They prowled under the trees as a piney wind blew ashes and embers through the sky. In time the flames began to dwindle, and then they were gone. The sun rose grey and smoky that morning./

A Storm of Swords - Bran I     He could feel the high stone calling him. Up he went, loping easy at first, then faster and higher, his strong legs eating up the incline. Birds burst from the branches overhead as he raced by, clawing and flapping their way into the sky. He could hear the wind sighing up amongst the leaves, the squirrels chittering to one another, even the sound a pinecone made as it tumbled to the forest floor. The smells were a song around him, a song that filled the good green world.     Gravel flew from beneath his paws as he gained the last few feet to stand upon the crest. The sun hung above the tall pines huge and red, and below him the trees and hills went on and on as far as he could see or smell. A kite was circling far above, dark against the pink sky.    Prince. The man-sound came into his head suddenly, yet he could feel the rightness of it. Prince of the green, prince of the wolfswood. He was strong and swift and fierce, and all that lived in the good green world went in fear of him./

BTW, in the books Dany's dragons are small no larger than a horse.  Time moves slowly in martin's story. So far five books and in story time passing is three possibly four years so the dragons and Stark children ain't what you see on screen.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Slaver's Dread said:

Am I seeing right?

Did the OP really ressurect a two decade+ old debunked theory, structure it as a poll, and then go on to argue with everyone who doesn't agree with his preconceived notions?

From my understanding this has never been debunked. The only way it can be debunked is if GRRM confirms it.

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21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

GRRM never drew any connection to Ned, IIRC.  But sure, that's another theory. 

The connection to Ned wasn't what I was talking about, It was the only moment Hodor was scared to enter the crypts. Regardless of why he was scared, he didn't have a problem going down there when they went to hide from the sack. That has been confirmed.

21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

And yet, no-one outside the crypts heard them.  And of course, she is only commenting on the acoustics in her particular part of the crypts.

Im not talking outside the crypts, they were all hiding in the crypts for at least 3 days, and they would have heard a dragon maneuvering around, if their own "silent" footsteps echoed so loudly. The dragon would have had to be on the top level since he would have broken out while they were still in the crypts, If you are going with the first tower theory. Now I dont think GRRM would make a point of the crypts always being cold if he's trying to hint at a dragon. The always cold part makes me think of the others, but thats just speculation.

21 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Osha had private words with Luwin which we did not overhear.  Wex might know something we don't.

Again I doubt Luwin would tell her, or agree with her on taking them to Skagos. The logistics of getting there don't add up well, It's not an easy place to get to, and with a direwolf and Rickon, who you are trying to keep hidden, would make it all the more difficult. I do agree Wex is going to be the key to find out what really took place.

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13 hours ago, kleevedge said:

"It was the only moment Hodor was scared to enter the crypts. Regardless of why he was scared, he didn't have a problem going down there when they went to hide from the sack. That has been confirmed."

Right.  Whatever he was scared of, that was "present" before, was no longer "present".

"Im not talking outside the crypts,"

Right.  But if what is audible inside the crypts is inaudible outside the crypts, then is also may be true that what is audible in one part of the "crypts" is not audible in the another part of the "crypts", or in connected passages elsewhere underground.  

Just one or two flights of steps and a door separate what you call "the crypts" from the outside.  This is enough to make them inaudible to the outside, and vice versa.  Similar underground features could make one underground region inaudible to another underground region.

"they were all hiding in the crypts for at least 3 days, and they would have heard a dragon maneuvering around, if their own "silent" footsteps echoed so loudly."

You realize their own "silent" footsteps are only 5 feet away, right?  If a dragon was immediately nearby, then they would have heard it, sure.    Otherwise, you are making too many assumptions about the layout and acoustics of the crypts.

To my mind, an echo effect implies sound is trapped within a relatively small area.  There is no implication that the sound will travel for any significant distance.

"The dragon would have had to be on the top level since he would have broken out while they were still in the crypts, If you are going with the first tower theory."

This depends on the assumption that you know the complete arrangement of the crypts and attached tunnels.  But I got the impression that they had no clearly-defined limit, and might have secret connections.  There might be a thousand tunnels leading to a 1000 hidden chambers, and going for miles and miles. For all you know, a passage might lead directly from the 33rd level, 5000 feet down, straight up to the first tower.

"Now I dont think GRRM would make a point of the crypts always being cold if he's trying to hint at a dragon."

Perhaps, as I suggested, the coldness of the crypts acts as a barrier that deters the dragon, and causes it generally to prefer other warmer tunnels and passages.

Edited by Platypus Rex

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Hi @Platypus Rex

Just wanted to know if you caught this line from Dany in the Palace of Dust:

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...

Is this real? Just a vision? "Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were?"

It's a good thing Martin writes the way he does because otherwise there would be nothing to talk about between books.

But count me as a hopeful no for Summer seeing a real dragon. There are already too many story lines to wrap up in two books that I would hate to see another.

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18 hours ago, rustythesmith said:

So in order for us to be justified in classifying Summer's dragon as unreliable narration, we need to find the place where the author provided irrefutable, concrete proof (an unkiss is never a kiss, east is never west) that it could not possibly have been a real dragon.

Maybe. Could be, we'll never have the "definitive" eyewitness description from someone who understands what they're seeing. Also, could be it just hasn't come around yet in the story. I still maintain that a wolf's interpretation is going to be significantly less trustworthy, maybe more metaphorical, and couched in concepts that the animal understands. This says to me that no, a dragon didn't burst out of Winterfell. For the record, I discount the theory of dragons living underground and producing the hot springs. What do they eat, graveworms?

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2 hours ago, zandru said:

Maybe. Could be, we'll never have the "definitive" eyewitness description from someone who understands what they're seeing.

Right, which means that it doesn't qualify as unreliable narration. In order for something to be unreliable narration the reader needs to have some way to falsify it with more reliable narration from somewhere else.

I think you've made a leap that Summer doesn't understand what he's seeing. It's entirely possible that he understands what he's seeing perfectly.

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Also, could be it just hasn't come around yet in the story.

That's true. Let's try to imagine how a more reliable narration might appear in future books and what that might look like. Perhaps we'll get a scene where two soldiers in a tavern are having a conversation about the smoke dragon they saw over Winterfell. That would contradict the idea that it's a real dragon pretty convincingly, but still not concretely because of course people are susceptible to biased perceptions. Look at any other instance of unreliable narration and you will find absolute concrete contradiction.

* Cersei hears news that Davos has been executed and his head is mounted at White Harbor. Our absolute contradiction to that unreliable narration occurs the moment we occupy Davos's POV again. We can't occupy a POV of a dead person.

A tavern story does not constitute an absolute contradiction. So what would contradict the idea that it's a real dragon and dispel all doubt? Well, the answer to that question seems to be nothing short of divine intervention. We will need the characters to travel back in time and investigate the smoke again. We will need some god to walk on stage and tell us that the smoke was, in fact, just smoke and flame. There does not exist a way in which this narration can be concretely contradicted in the future, therefore it cannot possibly become unreliable narration. Therefore it is reliable narration.

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I still maintain that a wolf's interpretation is going to be significantly less trustworthy, maybe more metaphorical, and couched in concepts that the animal understands. This says to me that no, a dragon didn't burst out of Winterfell.

Fair enough. But I think that stance is completely unprecedented. I'm not aware of any instance in which a direwolf's perception is not an accurate depiction of reality. It seems to be the opposite. The wolves are hyper perceptive and even prophetic. The wolf's language does not demonstrate that his perceptions are inaccurate, it demonstrates that the wolf thinks in a different language. And it's a language that turns out to be very easy for us to interpret in the context of things a wolf would already know. Man rock is a castle. Man claw is a sword. Hard skin is armor. Unless we believe those castles, swords and armor are made out of smoke and flame, then this isn't metaphorical language. It's literal. So that seems to be a strong indication that the great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame is also literal. This reasoning fits well with a strategy that has proven useful to me in the past, which is to use the text to define the text. So that's a big part of the reason why I think the idea is strong.

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For the record, I discount the theory of dragons living underground and producing the hot springs. What do they eat, graveworms?

They might eat each other. I don't have any strong feelings about that theory or particularly subscribe to it either. It could be neat but I don't feel like GRRM has provided us with enough solid information about dragons or their magical nature to speculate too deeply on the particulars of the conditions they're able to survive. It may very well be the case that dragons can be petrified and stored as stone, then awoken with some catalyst or ritual, perhaps involving fire or blood. It's all speculative so I may as well say that the dragon was stored in a lantern and the catalyst is lemoncake. People and maesters don't seem to know much of anything about how dragons work. As a result the underground theory is plausible.

Edited by rustythesmith

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1 hour ago, rustythesmith said:

Right, which means that it doesn't qualify as unreliable narration.

The narration can be "unreliable" but we the readers never get any direct evidence that it isn't.

But fine - go ahead and keep telling yourself that dragons are bursting out of Winterfell. Good luck with that. Believe whatever you like; it doesn't bother me.

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