Wake Dragons From Stone = Sword in the Stone

[aryagonnakill#2]

I certainly like it, and it is easy to see happen.  The only kink I see is what happens with the dragons between now and then.  If someone else claims one like Euron, Aegon, Brown Ben, or Tyrion, then Jon doing so won't mean nearly as much.

[Fire Eater]

7 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Even if Rhaegar married Lyanna not everyone will accept it as valid since Rhaegar was already married. When Maegor Targaryen married Alys Harroway while being married to Ceryse Hightower, the Faith of the Seven refused to accept it's legitamacy. Even when Maegor pointed out that Aegon the Conqueror had to wifes, and claimed that the laws of the Faith did not apply to dragon blood the Faith still refused to accept it's legitmacy. Aenys later expelled Maegor for his transgression, offering his support to the Faith.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Maegor_I_Targaryen

 

 

Jaehaerys the Wise resolved the conflict between House Targaryen and the Faith of the Seven.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jaehaerys_I_Targaryen#Early_Reign

 

I think it is telling that there was not more attempts at polygyny among any members after Meagor Targaryen. Perhaps a part of the agreement between House Targaryen and the Faith of the Seven was that polygamy should be illegal? Now that the Faith is reclaimng it's role in Westerosi society and militarising i think that they would have a say in the matter. Many lords would also side with the Faith over House Targaryen.

Except at the time of Maegor, the Faith an army in the form of the Faith Militant while the Targaryen monarchy was still in its infancy. By the time of Rhaegar, the Targaryens have been recognized as the established rulers of Westeros for close to 300 years while the Faith Militant had been long disbanded over two centuries ago with the High Septon having become a puppet of the monarchy. It also should be noted that Aenys didn't dissolve his brother's marriage. 

It isn't stated anywhere that polygamy was outlawed. That Blackfyre supporters say that Aegon IV promised Daemon that he could marry both Daenerys and Rohanne of Tyrosh at the same time suggests that polygamy wasn't outlawed, just discontinued. The Faith allowed the Targaryens to continue incestuous marriages, and it isn't a stretch to assume that the Faith ended its mutterings about polygamy.  

I doubt the High Sparrow is going to survive his encounter with Daenerys, and the Faith Militant may likely be disbanded since it challenges the Iron Throne's authority. Even so, there is no precedent for children of polygamous marriages being declared as bastards. Rhaegar and Lyanna may also have been married before a heart tree, and a marriage by the Old Gods is outside the Faith's jurisdiction. 

[Fire Eater]

8 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The dragons have been awoken from stone and it's not Jon who did it.  Azor Ahai, Darnerys Targaryens, did.

Daenerys being AAR goes against GRRM's own words on prophecy: 

Quote

[Laughs] Prophecies are, you know, a double edge sword. You have to handle them very carefully; I mean, they can add depth and interest to a book, but you don’t want to be too literal or too easy... In the Wars of the Roses, that you mentioned, there was one Lord who had been prophesied he would die beneath the walls of a certain castle and he was superstitious at that sort of walls, so he never came anyway near that castle. He stayed thousands of leagues away from that particular castle because of the prophecy. However, he was killed in the first battle of St. Paul de Vence and when they found him dead he was outside of an inn whose sign was the picture of that castle! [Laughs] So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

Daenerys being AAR is too literal and easy especially with regards to her dragons. One must also take into account that in Dunk and Egg whenever there is a dragon in a prophecy it refers to a Targaryen. GRRM also never has the prophecy explicitly explained in the text until after it the prophesied event occurs. Usually, when the character tries to explain it beforehand, they get it wrong. 

Also, Sansa hides under the alias "Alayne Stone," Rickon hides on Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue and Arya hides Needle, representing her Stark identity, under a stone in the steps. 

A dragon waking from stone could mean a hidden Targaryen being revealed. 

[divica]

33 minutes ago, Fire Eater said:

Daenerys being AAR goes against GRRM's own words on prophecy: 

Daenerys being AAR is too literal and easy especially with regards to her dragons. One must also take into account that in Dunk and Egg whenever there is a dragon in a prophecy it refers to a Targaryen. GRRM also never has the prophecy explicitly explained in the text until after it the prophesied event occurs. Usually, when the character tries to explain it beforehand, they get it wrong. 

Also, Sansa hides under the alias "Alayne Stone," Rickon hides on Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue and Arya hides Needle, representing her Stark identity, under a stone in the steps. 

A dragon waking from stone could mean a hidden Targaryen being revealed. 

You are forgeting that AA should awake dragonS from stone. As in more than 1.

Honestly, if the dragons aren t some deus ex machina super efective against the others the characters would need more than 3 dragons (that are only efective in 1 to 3 locations at most). Besides, the others should be able to kill dragons. Which means that 3 dragons should be easily neutralized by dozens or hundreds of others.

 

The most interesting way to wake dragons (in a significant number) from stone at this moment should be if the wildlings Giants are dragons (and they are called Giants because they are enormous and the wildlings/first men didn t have the word dragon). This way when someone sounds the horn of joramun the person would awake dragons from stone (stone because they were frozen somewhere hibernating or something similar)

[The Mother of The Others]

Quote

 

A dragon waking from stone could mean a hidden Targaryen being revealed

 

From the bastard name Stone too.

Lots of chances coming up for Stormy's fire to go wrong.   Red priest influence.  Marwyn.   Dragonbinding mishaps.   The Crones burning.   The slavers burning with no lessons learned, so Danneeee just becomes a fire demon leading people into ash instead of into the light. 

 ....Jon's soul's AA fire may burn cleaner, sending up the pure white new pope smoke of AA reborn.  But, in the meantime, Daenerys remains in the lead precisely because she is the obvious choice.    The important message about prophecy is to disregard it.   Go with the best monarch at all times.  Just keep up to the minute tabs on who that is so you can change loyalties on a dime and you'll be fine.  That's how you deal with these people.

[Bowen Marsh]

22 hours ago, 867-5309 said:

Jon is still a bastard even if he is the son of Rhaegar.  Rhaegar was already married, with children.  His marriage was consummated.  His claim will never be as strong as Daenerys' claim.  

He looks like a Stark.  She looks like the perfect Targaryen.  She can and has already hatched dragon eggs.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch.  I don't think anybody outside of the Starks would support Jon.  

Correct.  Only Aerys can grant a divorce and he is not likely to do that because he saw the Starks as the enemies.  Rhaegar cannot grant himself a divorce.  Polygamy is illegal, else that fool Aegon IV would have married his lovers.  

 

[Fire Eater]

3 hours ago, divica said:

You are forgeting that AA should awake dragonS from stone. As in more than 1.

Honestly, if the dragons aren t some deus ex machina super efective against the others the characters would need more than 3 dragons (that are only efective in 1 to 3 locations at most). Besides, the others should be able to kill dragons. Which means that 3 dragons should be easily neutralized by dozens or hundreds of others.

 

The most interesting way to wake dragons (in a significant number) from stone at this moment should be if the wildlings Giants are dragons (and they are called Giants because they are enormous and the wildlings/first men didn t have the word dragon). This way when someone sounds the horn of joramun the person would awake dragons from stone (stone because they were frozen somewhere hibernating or something similar)

Quote

"When the fires speak more plainly, so shall I. There is truth in the flames, but it is not always easy to see." The great ruby at her throat drank fire from the glow of the brazier. "Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon." 

-ASoS Davos IV

That's just semantics, and makes for a weak argument. That still doesn't disprove anything, neither GRRM's own words or the extensive use of metaphor in prophecy. The prophecy likely doesn't refer to a literal dragon but a Targaryen. 

As for Others killing dragons, how would they be able to reach the dragons in flight? From what we've seen of the Others' tactics consist of sending in wights in force, and then picking off stragglers. I doubt they would come out in force to face a dragon in the sky. Grounded, however, the dragons can be vulnerable to being massed by the wights, and the Others could strike a killing blow, but even that comes with risks. Dragonblood is hot enough to melt iron, and could likely set wights on fire if they tried to tear through its scales or wound it. The same could said for Others. 

[divica]

1 hour ago, Fire Eater said:

That's just semantics, and makes for a weak argument. That still doesn't disprove anything, neither GRRM's own words or the extensive use of metaphor in prophecy. The prophecy likely doesn't refer to a literal dragon but a Targaryen. 

As for Others killing dragons, how would they be able to reach the dragons in flight? From what we've seen of the Others' tactics consist of sending in wights in force, and then picking off stragglers. I doubt they would come out in force to face a dragon in the sky. Grounded, however, the dragons can be vulnerable to being massed by the wights, and the Others could strike a killing blow, but even that comes with risks. Dragonblood is hot enough to melt iron, and could likely set wights on fire if they tried to tear through its scales or wound it. The same could said for Others. 

Actualy, your quote doesn t specify if mel wasn t going to awake the first stone dragon on her list. The quote doesn t say that she doesn t plan to awake others when she can. Besides, every time the profecy is quoted it is about multiple dragons. You can t just ignore that...

Hell, if you want that part of the profecy to be about targs then it makes more sense for you to argue that AA will cure greyscale and therefore awake valyrians (dragons) from stone (greysacale).

 

The others can use arrows, javelins, Spears, dead flying animals, snow and storms (from the fire and blood preview the others might even have magic that affects the dragons)… But they must be able to retaliate against the dragons if the dragons aren t suposed to be some kind of deus ex machina. And if the dragons are killable then 3 dragons aren t that great of a weapon against lots and lots of others.

In regards to the dragons being fire made flesh, the others are made of ice. we don t know how efective their weapons are on the dragons nor how the dragons behave under freezing temperatures.

[The Sleeper]

Riding a dragon shouldn't prove anything. Thanks to the heroic efforts of Aegon the Unworthy and the various Targaryens whose offspring remain unaccounted for, there should several hundred people with the potential to be dragon riders. The dragonseeds establish that. More importantly Brown Ben Plum establishes that and he in particular is likely to sour Dany's attitude to potential dragon riders.

Apart from that Jon is the son of a long dead prince  of a deposed dynasty and his legitimacy will be at best controversial. There is a great number of people who wouldn't care even if they believed that he was the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar. 

So, it can't be proven and it would largely be irrelevant even if it were. Jon's ancestry is unlikely to mater in terms of politics, not on its own. I believe the relevance of his ancestry lies elsewhere. 

[Fire Eater]

21 hours ago, divica said:

Actualy, your quote doesn t specify if mel wasn t going to awake the first stone dragon on her list. The quote doesn t say that she doesn t plan to awake others when she can. Besides, every time the profecy is quoted it is about multiple dragons. You can t just ignore that...

Hell, if you want that part of the profecy to be about targs then it makes more sense for you to argue that AA will cure greyscale and therefore awake valyrians (dragons) from stone (greysacale).

 

The others can use arrows, javelins, Spears, dead flying animals, snow and storms (from the fire and blood preview the others might even have magic that affects the dragons)… But they must be able to retaliate against the dragons if the dragons aren t suposed to be some kind of deus ex machina. And if the dragons are killable then 3 dragons aren t that great of a weapon against lots and lots of others.

In regards to the dragons being fire made flesh, the others are made of ice. we don t know how efective their weapons are on the dragons nor how the dragons behave under freezing temperatures.

I wasn't referring to Melisandre actually waking a stone dragon, but that the prophecy doesn't necessarily need to be about dragons, plural. That's just semantics, as people go from singular to plural all the time when referring to things in real life and the text. 

You just ignored GRRM's own words, and that prophecy deals with metaphor in text. GRRM's own words are the strongest evidence IMO, and I don't think you've presented anything that effectively counters that. If semantics is your only argument, than I'm sorry but your case is weak. 

I've already pointed that a prophecy always refers to a Targaryen when there is a dragon involved. A hidden Targaryen in this context makes sense as GRRM himself said prophecy shouldn't be too literal. When Quaithe sees Connington, Aegon, Tyrion, Victarion and Moqorro, she doesn't see the literal people themselves, but a griffin, a mummer's dragon, a lion, a kraken and a dark flame. 

We've never seen the Others use projectile weapons. Even so, I don't think they'd be able to throw them high enough to hit a dragon in the sky. As for flying animals, there is nothing that can fly in Westeros that is of size sufficient to take on a dragon. It would just be a flock of birds, and bursts of dragonflame would be effective against them. 

We haven't seen "lots and lots of Others" anywhere. They don't come out in force, and if they did, none of them can fly. Dragons have come to the Wall before, and can likely withstand the cold temperatures to a point. Strong winds can be a deterrent, I'll grant you, but dragons are more effective against wights and Others than the other way around. 

20 hours ago, The Sleeper said:

Riding a dragon shouldn't prove anything. Thanks to the heroic efforts of Aegon the Unworthy and the various Targaryens whose offspring remain unaccounted for, there should several hundred people with the potential to be dragon riders. The dragonseeds establish that. More importantly Brown Ben Plum establishes that and he in particular is likely to sour Dany's attitude to potential dragon riders.

Apart from that Jon is the son of a long dead prince  of a deposed dynasty and his legitimacy will be at best controversial. There is a great number of people who wouldn't care even if they believed that he was the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar. 

So, it can't be proven and it would largely be irrelevant even if it were. Jon's ancestry is unlikely to mater in terms of politics, not on its own. I believe the relevance of his ancestry lies elsewhere. 

It proves that one has blood of the dragon. If Jon has some it clearly couldn't have come from the Stark side, and there aren't any women known to be his mother. Howland Reed and the Daynes would collaborate along with a few other things. A dragon would solve the problem of Jon if he is a false pretender given he would be killed trying to mount one. 

"Apart from that Jon is the son of a long dead prince  of a deposed dynasty and his legitimacy will be at best controversial. There is a great number of people who wouldn't care even if they believed that he was the legitimate son and heir of Rhaegar?" Daenerys is seeking to restore that dynasty, and there are still Targaryen supporters in Westeros. As to no one care about Jon being Rhaegar's son, how does that make sense? Being the last living male heir of the Targaryen dynasty is huge, as law and tradition require Jon to be the king. It would be politically impossible to ignore Jon if he is Rhaegar's legitimate son. 

[Megorova]

On 11/1/2018 at 4:33 AM, Bowen Marsh said:

On 10/31/2018 at 5:46 AM, 867-5309 said:

Jon is still a bastard even if he is the son of Rhaegar.  Rhaegar was already married, with children.  His marriage was consummated.  His claim will never be as strong as Daenerys' claim.  

He looks like a Stark.  She looks like the perfect Targaryen.  She can and has already hatched dragon eggs.  Jon betrayed the Night's Watch.  I don't think anybody outside of the Starks would support Jon.  

Correct.  Only Aerys can grant a divorce and he is not likely to do that because he saw the Starks as the enemies.  Rhaegar cannot grant himself a divorce.  Polygamy is illegal, else that fool Aegon IV would have married his lovers.  

 

Rhaegar could have been granted divorce at Starry Sept in Oldtown. It's not the King's prerogative to grant divorces or to conduct marriage ceremonies.

Also it doesn't matter whether Jon looks like Targaryen or not. Baelor Breakspear also didn't looked like Targaryen, but he was King Daeron's oldest son, and thus Crown Prince, and first in line to inherit Targaryen crown. Rhaegar was Crown Prince, thus him and all of his children were in line of Targaryen inheritance prior Aerys' other children. So even little princess Rhaenys, Rhaegar's daughter, had more rights to become Queen of 7K than Dany. This is order of Targaryen inheritance:

1. Aerys
2. Rhaegar
3. Elia's Aegon
4. Lyanna's Jon
5. Rhaenys
6. Viserys
7. Dany
8. Rhaego

Rhaenys is prior Viserys, even though she's a girl. Confirmation, that daughters (Rhaenys) have more rights, than uncles (Viserys), and thus aunts also (Dany), is the case of Alys Karstark.

[The Map Guy]

Cool King Arthur reference, but I always thought 'waking dragons from stone' was how the dragons came from the moon (a large space stone, also note that its not plural: stones )...and when Nissa Nissa cried out after Azor Ahai stabbed her, she screamed so loud it left a crack on the moon, releasing the dragons onto Earth.

Or 'waking dragons from stone' can mean unlocking dormant dragon powers in someone

Or it could mean both

[El Guapo]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:45 PM, Fire Eater said:

Daenerys being AAR goes against GRRM's own words on prophecy: 

Daenerys being AAR is too literal and easy especially with regards to her dragons. One must also take into account that in Dunk and Egg whenever there is a dragon in a prophecy it refers to a Targaryen. GRRM also never has the prophecy explicitly explained in the text until after it the prophesied event occurs. Usually, when the character tries to explain it beforehand, they get it wrong. 

Also, Sansa hides under the alias "Alayne Stone," Rickon hides on Skagos which means "stone" in the Old Tongue and Arya hides Needle, representing her Stark identity, under a stone in the steps. 

A dragon waking from stone could mean a hidden Targaryen being revealed. 

 

Well except for the fact that Dany knows nothing of the prophecy so this doesn't fit at all.  George's quote about the prophecy fits Cersei and her efforts to not be struck down by the younger more beautiful queen to a tee.

[Fire Eater]

10 hours ago, El Guapo said:

 

Well except for the fact that Dany knows nothing of the prophecy so this doesn't fit at all.  George's quote about the prophecy fits Cersei and her efforts to not be struck down by the younger more beautiful queen to a tee.

Yes, it does given it your argument completely ignores that Maester Aemon and the red priests of Volantis have named Dany as AAR. 

The problem with your argument regarding Cersei is that she doesn't believe Daenerys is the YMBQ, she thinks it's Margaery. Prophecy can be metaphorical when it uses animals and things that could stand for sigils. 

[Megorova]

14 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Yes, it does given it your argument completely ignores that Maester Aemon and the red priests of Volantis have named Dany as AAR. 

Though, unlike Cersei, Dany has no idea, that some people think, that she is AAR. She doesn't even know who AA is/was. So what those other people, far away from Meereen, think about Dany, doesn't affect her own actions or decisions. Thus the prophecy doesn't affect her, and she also doesn't act in certain way, because of the prophecy, or to avoid it. Even that other pseudo-prophecy, given to Dany by Quiathe, doesn't affect Dany's actions. Quaithe has warned Dany about pale mare, but when an ill man came to Meereen, riding on grey/pale horse, Dany haven't done anything, to avoid, what happened later. If she burned his body, immediately after his death, then there would have been no epidemy. Also Dany would have been weary of Martell prince, and wouldn't have married with him, even if Quaithe didn't warned her about the Sun's son.

On 11/6/2018 at 7:28 PM, El Guapo said:

Daenerys being AAR goes against GRRM's own words on prophecy: 

Daenerys being AAR is too literal and easy especially with regards to her dragons. One must also take into account that in Dunk and Egg whenever there is a dragon in a prophecy it refers to a Targaryen.

That's why Dany is only one out of three AAR. The dragon has three heads, but it's a singular dragon. So it's the same thing as The Holy Trinity - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Only in ASOIAF it's The Mother/Dany, The Son/Rhaego, and The Holy Ghost/Jon Snow. All three, in certain ways, are a parallel to Biblical Jesus. And Second Long Night is GRRM's version of Biblical Apocalypse, from the Book of Revellation.

Revelation 8 verse 10. "The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."  <- GRRM's The Bleeding Star comet and the Weirwood (which is the source of the Others).

There's also many other parallels between ASOIAF and The Book of Revellation:

• mummer's dragon/fAegon is a parallel to Antichrist/the Beast of the Sea, Varys and Illyrio are his false prophets/The Beast of the Earth:

Quote

A Beast (with seven heads, ten horns, and ten crowns on his horns and on his heads names of blasphemy) emerges from the Sea, having one mortally wounded head that is then healed. The people of the world wonder and follow the Beast. The Dragon grants him power and authority for forty-two months. (13:1–5)

The Beast of the Sea blasphemes God's name (along with God's tabernacle and His kingdom and all who dwell in Heaven), wages war against the Saints, and overcomes them. (13:6–10)

Then, a Beast emerges from the Earth having two horns like a lamb, speaking like a dragon. He directs people to make an image of the Beast of the Sea who was wounded yet lives, breathing life into it, and forcing all people to bear "the mark of the Beast",

• Tyrion, the lion of Lannisters - The Lion of the tribe of Judah (Biblical Judah betrayed Jesus, and Tywin betrayed Aerys);
• Rhaego, who is Khal of khals, the Stallion that mounts the world, according to Dothraki prophecy - all people of the world will be his herd, is a parallel to Jesus, who was in the BofR named King of kings and Lord of lords, and the great Shepherd, that will lead all nations; In one of Biblical scenes the sword comes out of Jesus' mouth, and Dany saw in her visions, the fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth, fire is R'hllor's weapon/sword.
• Seven Seals broken: A white horse appears, whose crowned rider has a bow with which to conquer - Dany's white horse, her wedding present; A red horse appears, whose rider is granted a "great sword" to take peace from the earth - Khal Drogo's war for Dany; A black horse appears, whose rider has "a pair of balances in his hand" - Mirri Maz Duur's life pays for life, three lifes for three dragons; A pale horse appears, whose rider is Death, and Hades follows him - Pale Mare in Meeren and resulting war; etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Structure_and_content

And GRRM did used Biblical themes in his previous books, such as "The Way of Cross and Dragon" and "Call Him Moses". And he started to write AGOT, when he published those two books. So ASOIAF, same as those books, is partially Bible-based. Thus, it's highly likely, that there are three Azor Ahais in ASOIAF, and that's the meaning of GRRM's "three heads has the dragon".

[Fire Eater]

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

Though, unlike Cersei, Dany has no idea, that some people think, that she is AAR. She doesn't even know who AA is/was. So what those other people, far away from Meereen, think about Dany, doesn't affect her own actions or decisions. Thus the prophecy doesn't affect her, and she also doesn't act in certain way, because of the prophecy, or to avoid it. Even that other pseudo-prophecy, given to Dany by Quiathe, doesn't affect Dany's actions. Quaithe has warned Dany about pale mare, but when an ill man came to Meereen, riding on grey/pale horse, Dany haven't done anything, to avoid, what happened later. If she burned his body, immediately after his death, then there would have been no epidemy. Also Dany would have been weary of Martell prince, and wouldn't have married with him, even if Quaithe didn't warned her about the Sun's son.

That's why Dany is only one out of three AAR. The dragon has three heads, but ill man came to Meereen, riding on grey/pale horse, Dany haven't done anything, to avoid, what happened later. If she burned his body, immediately after his death, then there would have been no epidemy. Also Dany would have been weary of Martell prince, and wouldn't have married with him, even if Quaithe didn't warned her about the Sun's son.

That still doesn't refute me earlier point: people who try to explain the prophecy before it happens get it wrong. It doesn't have to be the person the prophecy refers to who gets it wrong. Dany is bound to hear the prophecy at some point with Moqorro and Marwyn coming. There is nothing you have to back up your argument in that department. Also, the argument is over interpretation of prophecy not actions taken regarding it. You've just taken the argument onto a tangent. 

8 hours ago, Megorova said:

That's why Dany is only one out of three AAR. The dragon has three heads, but it's a singular dragon. So it's the same thing as The Holy Trinity - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Only in ASOIAF it's The Mother/Dany, The Son/Rhaego, and The Holy Ghost/Jon Snow. All three, in certain ways, are a parallel to Biblical Jesus. And Second Long Night is GRRM's version of Biblical Apocalypse, from the Book of Revellation.

Revelation 8 verse 10. "The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water - the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter."  <- GRRM's The Bleeding Star comet and the Weirwood (which is the source of the Others).

There's also many other parallels between ASOIAF and The Book of Revellation:

• mummer's dragon/fAegon is a parallel to Antichrist/the Beast of the Sea, Varys and Illyrio are his false prophets/The Beast of the Earth:

• Tyrion, the lion of Lannisters - The Lion of the tribe of Judah (Biblical Judah betrayed Jesus, and Tywin betrayed Aerys);
• Rhaego, who is Khal of khals, the Stallion that mounts the world, according to Dothraki prophecy - all people of the world will be his herd, is a parallel to Jesus, who was in the BofR named King of kings and Lord of lords, and the great Shepherd, that will lead all nations; In one of Biblical scenes the sword comes out of Jesus' mouth, and Dany saw in her visions, the fire coming out of Rhaego's mouth, fire is R'hllor's weapon/sword.
• Seven Seals broken: A white horse appears, whose crowned rider has a bow with which to conquer - Dany's white horse, her wedding present; A red horse appears, whose rider is granted a "great sword" to take peace from the earth - Khal Drogo's war for Dany; A black horse appears, whose rider has "a pair of balances in his hand" - Mirri Maz Duur's life pays for life, three lifes for three dragons; A pale horse appears, whose rider is Death, and Hades follows him - Pale Mare in Meeren and resulting war; etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation#Structure_and_content

And GRRM did used Biblical themes in his previous books, such as "The Way of Cross and Dragon" and "Call Him Moses". And he started to write AGOT, when he published those two books. So ASOIAF, same as those books, is partially Bible-based. Thus, it's highly likely, that there are three Azor Ahais in ASOIAF, and that's the meaning of GRRM's "three heads has the dragon".

AAR refers to a single person, just as the first AA was. Rhaego doesn't fit as a head given he is clearly dead, and can't mount a dragon. Your paralleling with the Bible of the Holy Trinity is reaching IMO, especially, since Daenerys is more likely Moses: wanders through the desert, frees slaves from a civilization know for its pyramids, and taking them to the Promised Land of her ancestors (Westeros). Even Dany instructing the slaves being allowed to take valuables as compensation in Yunkai going with Moses instructing the Hebrews to take articles of gold and silver from the Egyptians. Jon is more the Jesus figure in that he is a promised savior of royal blood, betrayed by his followers, the crown of roses Lyanna had which Ned noted had thorns, being a reference to the crown of thorns Jesus wore, and finally, Jon will be raised from the dead in TWoW. 

[dmfn]

Prophecy is metaphorical. There doesn't need to be actual dragons or actual stone. 

Likewise, the legend of Azhor Ahai is almost certainly 100% metaphorical. One man, one sword, thrice forged...all that is just a story based on someone or some group of people that fought in the Long Night, if not just some cosmic or meteorological events witnessed around the time the Long Night ended. 

I will be shocked if anyone in the series plunges a sword in a person they love's heart and pulls out a magical flaming sword used to defeat frozen monsters. 

I would be less surprised to find out the Others are the good, honest, rightful inhabitants of Westeros and the Children, humans and everyone else is ruining their land. 

[Megorova]

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

AAR refers to a single person, just as the first AA was.

According to the prophecy, AAR has to do three things - to appear at the time of the Bleeding Star (Rhaego), to wake dragons from stone (Dany), and to wield Lightbringer (Jon). Also there are actually three prophecies from three different cultures - AAR prophecy from Asshai, made by followers of R'hllor; The promised Prince prophecy, made by the woods witch of Westeros; The Stallion that mounts the world prophecy, made by Dothraki; and finally there's what Rhaegar's "ghost" said to Dany, in the House of the Undying, while she was under influence of the shade-of-the-evening - three heads has the dragon. Those three people will end Second Long Night, together. Jon is Azor Ahai, because he will be wielding Lightbringer, which is, most likely, Dawn sword of Daynes. Dany is the promised Princess from House Targaryen. And Rhaego is the Stallion, and he was born shortly prior appearance of the Bleeding Star comet.

I'm nearly 100% sure, that Jon was conceived at Starfall, and he is 1/8 Dayne, thru his ancestor, Queen Dyanna Dayne. Wielder of sword Dawn is titled the Sword of the Morning. Dawn, Sword of the Morning, Starfall, Gerold Dayne who is a Darkstar - all of it is clues. If Gerold Dayne is a Darkstar, then what is a nickname of the Sword of the Morning? - It's Morningstar. Morningstar is a planet Venus. Venus is called Lucifer, or Lightbringer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Quote

Lucifer (/ˈljuːsɪfər/ LEW-si-fər) is a Latin term that means "light-bringer". As a proper name, it was used to refer to the planet Venus as the morning star in the ancient Roman era.

 

The image of a morning star fallen from the sky is generally believed among scholars to have a parallel in Canaanite mythology.

 

In the Book of Isaiah, chapter 14, the King of Babylon is condemned in a prophetic vision by the prophet Isaiah and is called הֵילֵל בֶּן-שָׁחַר (Helel ben Shachar, Hebrew for "shining one, son of the morning").^[13] who is addressed as הילל בן שחר (Hêlêl ben Šāḥar),^{[15][16][17][18][19]} The title "Helel ben Shahar" may refer to the planet Venus as the morning star, but the text in Isaiah 14 gives no indication that Helel is the name of a star or planet.^[20][21] The Hebrew word transliterated as Hêlêl^[22] or Heylel (pron. as Hay-LALE),^[23] occurs only once in the Hebrew Bible.^[22] The Septuagint renders הֵילֵל in Greek as Ἑωσφόρος ^{[24][25][26][27][28]} (heōsphoros),^[29][30][31] "bringer of dawn", the Ancient Greek name for the morning star.^[32] According to the King James Bible-based Strong's Concordance, the original Hebrew word means "shining one, light-bearer", and the translation given in the King James text is the Latin name for the planet Venus, "Lucifer".^[23]

 

^"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!^"

 

In classical mythology, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin) was the name of the planet Venus, though it was often personified as a male figure bearing a torch. The Greek name for this planet was variously Phosphoros (also meaning "light-bringer") or Heosphoros (meaning "dawn-bringer").

 

In Latin, the word is applied to John the Baptist and is used as a title of Jesus himself in several early Christian hymns. The morning hymn Lucis largitor splendide of Hilary contains the line: "Tu verus mundi lucifer" (you are the true light bringer of the world).^[57]

 

The Latin word lucifer is also used of Jesus in the Easter Proclamation prayer to God regarding the paschal candle: Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam, lucifer, qui nescit occasum. Christus Filius tuus, qui, regressus ab inferis, humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit et regnat in saecula saeculorum ("May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever").

Son of the morning in the Bible, Sword of the Morning in ASOIAF.

Also Venus is the guardian planet of Libra. Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra, he was conceived approximately on Christmas Eve, at Starfall, and was born in second part of September (Libra September 23 - October 23). GRRM said, that age difference between Jon and Dany is 8-9 months. It's 8 months from September to May, and 9 months from September to June. Dany is Gemini (was born between May 21 and June 21). Guardian planet of Gemini is Mercury - messenger of gods in Greek mythology.

Both Libra and Gemini are air signs of Zodiac. If two future dragonriders are air signs, then, probably, the third one is also an air sign. So Rhaego could be Aquarius, and he was born between January 21 and February 18. Though if the baby was born premature, then he may be Capricorn (December 21 – January 20). Dany realised, that she was pregnant, on the day of her 14th birthday. Several months after Rhaego's birth, she turned 15 years old (when she arrived to Qarth). So it's possible, to calculate how many months passed between Dany's day of birth and her son's birthday.

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Rhaego doesn't fit as a head given he is clearly dead, and can't mount a dragon.

He's not dead, he was kidnapped. His kidnapping is treason for blood, first out of three treasons, predicted to Dany by the Undying. Rhaego is half-Dothraki, and half-dragonseed, so it's hard to say, who kidnapped him. Whether it was his Dothraki relatives, or it was Shiera Seastar.

Quiathe is Shiera Seastar. When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Shiera was summoned by magic, into Drogo's tent, by Mirri Maz Duur (Shiera's ex-disciple). She came there, unseen by anyone, because she wasn't actually there. Same, as she has appeared to Dany, on board of Balerion ship, in Meereen's pyramid, and in the Dothraki sea. She has used glass candle to "teleport". In the beginning she was wearing her wooden mask and a cape, but then she took them off, and Dany saw her mismatched eyes, and color of her hair.

AGOT, Dany IX: "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward." <- that sword of pale fire is a glass candle. And there was one person, not several. That one person was Shiera Seastar. One of her eyes is green, and the other is blue. Opal is a bicolored stone - green and blue. Secondary hue of some amethysts is blue color. There are blue and green tourmalines, bicolored blue-green tourmalines also exist. And there are blue jades, and green jades.

First half of AGOT's chapter Dany IX, her fevered dream, is about how she was giving birth to Rhaego, and she was assisted by Shiera Seastar, whom Dany saw as 1. smiling and whispering stars (same as in her last chapter in ADWD), 2. Viserys, who was twisting her nipples (this method is used, as a natural stimulation of labor, helps mother's body to produce oxytocin, that intensify contractions), 3. kings with swords of pale fire; and by maester Marwyn, whom Dany saw first as Drogo, and then as Jorah (he was warming his hands above burning blazier, said that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and then vanished - teleported back to the Citadel).

So Rhaego is alive, and he is either in Vaes Dothrak, or in Asshai. Most likely, in Asshai, because that's were Bran saw dragons <- it was a vision from the future (AGOT, Bran III) - "He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise." And Quaithe did said to Dany, that in Asshai there is the truth (probably, that Rhaego is alive).

9 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

since Daenerys is more likely Moses

But she's more than just that. Same as Mother Mary, that was visited by three wisemen from east, after she gave birth to Jesus, Dany also was visited by eastern wisemen - Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and Pyat Pree. Same as in the Bible, those three came to the Mother, by following the Bleeding Star comet. In the Bible there was also a prophecy, according to which, Jesus' birth will be heralded by a star, so those wisemen has went after that star, and found Mother Mary (Mother Dany).

I'm sure, that there's even more parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible, though I'm not an expert in theology, so I don't see them (besides those few, that I have noticed by chance).

[Fire Eater]

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

According to the prophecy, AAR has to do three things - to appear at the time of the Bleeding Star (Rhaego), to wake dragons from stone (Dany), and to wield Lightbringer (Jon). Also there are actually three prophecies from three different cultures - AAR prophecy from Asshai, made by followers of R'hllor; The promised Prince prophecy, made by the woods witch of Westeros; The Stallion that mounts the world prophecy, made by Dothraki; and finally there's what Rhaegar's "ghost" said to Dany, in the House of the Undying, while she was under influence of the shade-of-the-evening - three heads has the dragon. Those three people will end Second Long Night, together. Jon is Azor Ahai, because he will be wielding Lightbringer, which is, most likely, Dawn sword of Daynes. Dany is the promised Princess from House Targaryen. And Rhaego is the Stallion, and he was born shortly prior appearance of the Bleeding Star comet.

I'm nearly 100% sure, that Jon was conceived at Starfall, and he is 1/8 Dayne, thru his ancestor, Queen Dyanna Dayne. Wielder of sword Dawn is titled the Sword of the Morning. Dawn, Sword of the Morning, Starfall, Gerold Dayne who is a Darkstar - all of it is clues. If Gerold Dayne is a Darkstar, then what is a nickname of the Sword of the Morning? - It's Morningstar. Morningstar is a planet Venus. Venus is called Lucifer, or Lightbringer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

Also Venus is the guardian planet of Libra. Jon's sign of Zodiac is Libra, he was conceived approximately on Christmas Eve, at Starfall, and was born in second part of September (Libra September 23 - October 23). GRRM said, that age difference between Jon and Dany is 8-9 months. It's 8 months from September to May, and 9 months from September to June. Dany is Gemini (was born between May 21 and June 21). Guardian planet of Gemini is Mercury - messenger of gods in Greek mythology.

Both Libra and Gemini are air signs of Zodiac. If two future dragonriders are air signs, then, probably, the third one is also an air sign. So Rhaego could be Aquarius, and he was born between January 21 and February 18. Though if the baby was born premature, then he may be Capricorn (December 21 – January 20). Dany realised, that she was pregnant, on the day of her 14th birthday. Several months after Rhaego's birth, she turned 15 years old (when she arrived to Qarth). So it's possible, to calculate how many months passed between Dany's day of birth and her son's birthday.

It is possible for one person to do all those three things. The story never speaks of three individuals. Your argument still fails to address that it goes against GRRM's own words. Unless you can disprove that you must concede the debate in that part. You completely miss that part about prophecy using metaphor. The red star bleeding could likely have referred to Ser Patrek of King's Mountain, whose sigil is a star, is a follower of the Red God and was bleeding from the mauling Wun Wun gave him. Rhaegar wasn't infallible, and may have misinterpreted the prophecy like he has before. The StMtW doesn't fit either since it doesn't speak of a prophesied savior, but a khal uniting the khals to "trample cities" or bring destruction, the opposite of a world savior. 

Jon can't be wielding Dawn since it belongs to the Daynes, and it is all the way in Starfall. The Daynes aren't like to give it to him. Why would he want Dawn anyway when he has a Valyrian sword in the form of Longclaw? Daenerys isn't a promised princess, Jon is with, the PtwP possible referring to the promise Ned made to Lyanna. Your last sentence of Sword of the Morning = Lightbringer is very convoluted with nothing to back it. It is more tinfoil territory, IMO. 

We have nothing in text or from So Spake Martin in interviews to confirm what month Jon was born in, so you have absolutely nothing to go on regarding Jon's zodiac sign. The same can be said for Dany. There is no evidence for this part of the theory. 

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

He's not dead, he was kidnapped. His kidnapping is treason for blood, first out of three treasons, predicted to Dany by the Undying. Rhaego is half-Dothraki, and half-dragonseed, so it's hard to say, who kidnapped him. Whether it was his Dothraki relatives, or it was Shiera Seastar.

Quiathe is Shiera Seastar. When Dany was giving birth to Rhaego, Shiera was summoned by magic, into Drogo's tent, by Mirri Maz Duur (Shiera's ex-disciple). She came there, unseen by anyone, because she wasn't actually there. Same, as she has appeared to Dany, on board of Balerion ship, in Meereen's pyramid, and in the Dothraki sea. She has used glass candle to "teleport". In the beginning she was wearing her wooden mask and a cape, but then she took them off, and Dany saw her mismatched eyes, and color of her hair.

AGOT, Dany IX: "Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. "Faster," they cried, "faster, faster." She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. "Faster!" the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward." <- that sword of pale fire is a glass candle. And there was one person, not several. That one person was Shiera Seastar. One of her eyes is green, and the other is blue. Opal is a bicolored stone - green and blue. Secondary hue of some amethysts is blue color. There are blue and green tourmalines, bicolored blue-green tourmalines also exist. And there are blue jades, and green jades.

First half of AGOT's chapter Dany IX, her fevered dream, is about how she was giving birth to Rhaego, and she was assisted by Shiera Seastar, whom Dany saw as 1. smiling and whispering stars (same as in her last chapter in ADWD), 2. Viserys, who was twisting her nipples (this method is used, as a natural stimulation of labor, helps mother's body to produce oxytocin, that intensify contractions), 3. kings with swords of pale fire; and by maester Marwyn, whom Dany saw first as Drogo, and then as Jorah (he was warming his hands above burning blazier, said that Rhaegar was the last dragon, and then vanished - teleported back to the Citadel).

So Rhaego is alive, and he is either in Vaes Dothrak, or in Asshai. Most likely, in Asshai, because that's were Bran saw dragons <- it was a vision from the future (AGOT, Bran III) - "He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise." And Quaithe did said to Dany, that in Asshai there is the truth (probably, that Rhaego is alive).

 

You have no evidence for Quaithe being Shiera, but I'll ignore that for now. Rhaego's body was burned on Drogo's pyre, and her handmaids told her he was dead. She also wasn't alone in the tent with MMD, Jorah and her handmaids were also there. They would have seen Quaithe. What was the infant body put on the pyre? Did Quaithe burn a baby beforehand to serve as a replacement? Your theory on Quaithe has absolutely zero evidence. MMD also made it clear she wanted to kill Rhaego so he would not be the StMtW. The glass candles can only allow people to send images and communicate through dreams, but it can't teleport people as far as we know. Why didn't Quaithe tell Dany Rhaego was alive from the start in ACoK? Pono, Jhaqo, and all those who would wish Rhaego harm were far away, so it was safe to tell her. GRRM said Dany isn't going to Asshai. Finally, even if Rhaego was alive he is a baby, how is a baby going to play a role in ending the War for Dawn?

14 hours ago, Megorova said:

But she's more than just that. Same as Mother Mary, that was visited by three wisemen from east, after she gave birth to Jesus, Dany also was visited by eastern wisemen - Quaithe, Xaro Xhoan Daxos, and Pyat Pree. Same as in the Bible, those three came to the Mother, by following the Bleeding Star comet. In the Bible there was also a prophecy, according to which, Jesus' birth will be heralded by a star, so those wisemen has went after that star, and found Mother Mary (Mother Dany).

I'm sure, that there's even more parallels between ASOIAF and the Bible, though I'm not an expert in theology, so I don't see them (besides those few, that I have noticed by chance).

There weren't three wisemen, the Bible never states the number of magi. It is an artistic invention as there were just three different gifts, so artists just portrayed one wiseman for each gift. The three people fits with Dany's journey with things coming in threes like in the prophecies. 

I'm sorry, but your whole theory is thin on evidence and heavy on headcanon and some false assumptions. GRRM, being an athiest/agnostic, likely isn't heavy on biblical knowledge except for some of the most famous figures like Jesus and Moses. 

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

What was the infant body put on the pyre?

I disagree with you on absolutely everything, what you wrote above. Absolutely everything. But anyone can think whatever he/she wants. But this - "infant body on the pyre" <- you should re-read that chapter. There was no body. No remnants at all. Nothing.

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

It is possible for one person to do all those three things.

But Dany is not a warrior. If she will even be wielding any sword, then it will be Bloodraven's Dark Sister.

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

You have no evidence for Quaithe being Shiera

There's no evidence, because if there was an evidence, then it would have been a generally accepted fact, that Quaithe is Shiera. There's no evidences, but there's plenty of clues/hints. And they will remain as clues/hints, until GRRM will reveal in plain text, that yes, Quithe is Shiera Seastar. Then all those clues/hints will be seen as evidence, because they are elements, that reveal to readers, that Shiera Seastar was part of ASOIAF's plot, long before her identity was revealed.

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

She also wasn't alone in the tent with MMD, Jorah and her handmaids were also there.

No, they weren't. Jorah has brought Dany into Drogo's tent, and then he either left, or passed out. It was Dany's first pregnancy, so she was giving birth to her child for 8+ hours <- that's an average duration of labor during first pregnancy, just Google it. Jorah was seriously wounded, he has lost lot's of blood, and he's not a yougster anymore, so it's ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE, that he was guarding Dany all those hours, while she was giving birth. He has brought Dany to Mirri, then he went out, got medical treatment from healers, and then either fell asleep or passed out. He was cut to the bone, and lost lot's of blood. Seriously! How can he stay awake, after THAT. And Dothraki, including Dany's handmaids, were too afraid to go into Drogo's tent, while the ritual was still in the process. So there was no one there with Dany, besides Mirri and half-dead Drogo, no Jorah, no handmaids. Untill Mirri has summoned Shiera and Marwyn.

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

Finally, even if Rhaego was alive he is a baby, how is a baby going to play a role in ending the War for Dawn?

Who said, that the War will be short? Dany saw grown up Rhaego in her vision, he was under banner of fiery stallion, and there was burning city behind him. He was burning that city, because it was full of walking dead. The War will last for decades, same as last time.

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

GRRM, being an athiest/agnostic, likely isn't heavy on biblical knowledge except for some of the most famous figures like Jesus and Moses. 

GRRM was raised as Catholic, and he lived in a very religious environment.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/about-george/life-and-times/bayonne/

Quote

I was born Catholic, like almost everybody else in Bayonne. Back then, a “mixed marriage” was when an Irish Catholic married an Italian Catholic.

~

The city was so Catholic that the parochial schools had classes twice the size of the public schools.

So he has an extensive knowledge of the Bible. Just because he stopped practicing now, doesn't erase all that he knew before. But because now, he doesn't believe in the Bible, it allows him to use it in his works, and not to feel as if though he is committing a blasphemy, because he's doing it (i.e. using Biblical themes, as one of basises for his fantasy book).

 

8 hours ago, Fire Eater said:

I'm sorry, but your whole theory is thin on evidence and heavy on headcanon and some false assumptions.

We disagree on everythin. So let's wait for the book, and then we will see, whether I have a wild imagination, and saw some random things as clues, even though they weren't; or whether I was right, and really have noticed clues, that other readers missed.