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Lady Barbrey

Winterfell - the Heart of Summer?

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I have always been curious about a few logical inconsistencies in the tales we have regarding the First Men, particularly one the Maesters seem perplexed by as well: why did the Children swamp the Arm of Dorne when the First Men had already arrived and were well-established? 

Another thing that seems to be missing in these histories is mention of humans with fire abilities.  In fact, aside from mention there were once dragons in Westeros, and a few structures of fused black stone, and mention of dragon steel, the continent seems suspiciously free of fire magic. It is also free of, to our knowledge, active geothermal activity aside from a few specific places.   We hear of no volcanoes other than at Dragonstone, but Dragonstone is an island, surrounded by ocean.  Similarly, we hear of obsidian on Skagos, but it too is an island.  Casterly Rock could well have been volcanic once, with those gold mines, but it could be millions of years since it was once active, and that goes for other mining on the continent too.  

The only place on this vast continent, at least below the Wall, that we know has active geothermal activity is at the hot springs under and surrounding Winterfell.  We are also specifically told Winterfell was never leveled, following the lay of the land, giving the impression of the kind of hot spring caverns underneath you might find in Iceland and would not want to disturb. (An actual example is from the show, where Jon and Ygritte meet in an underground hotspring cavern actually in Iceland.  But no hot springs in the books.)

Recently, on the Fire and Blood Excerpt thread, Ran joined us and suggested something that had never actually occurred to me before about the Wall.  I knew the Wall was a barrier to the Others and wights, but I did not know it actually was a kind of a magical restraining wall - all ice magic emanating from the Heart of Winter, the source of ice magic, is likely contained/restrained by it. So even if the Others managed to go around the Wall, I deduced, they would not be able to practice necromancy to the south of it, because they would be cut off from their source of magic. (The wights brought across during the day, it was explained, were already changed (and presumedly pre-programmed) so needed no new influx of ice magic from the other side of the Wall to carry out their attack on LC Mormont).

Also, from the same discussion, I started to wonder about the Wall itself.  Melisandre loves the Wall.  It enhances her fire magic. ( Unlike the walls of Storms End, where the spells disrupt fire magic.) Almost as if it were made from dragonfire, because dragons cause fire magic to work better. I also thought about the Wall-equivalent in Essos, the Five Forts, which is made of the same unembellished fused black stone as Oldtown, suggesting to the Maesters pre-Valyrian dragonfire built both the Five Forts and the Hightower base.  Was this a hint in the World Book that the Wall at base was not made from ice and earth magic, but from fire magic?   

Doesn't it make sense that if there were dragon riders, the Wall would be not only fused with dragonfire, but infused with it?  What do we know stops the Others?  Volcanic obsidian - dragonglass (which also seems to channel fire magic, e.g. the glass candles). Dragon bone possibly, the dragon steel of pre-Valyria Westeros? Valyrian steel blades, made with blood and dragonfire.  And dragonfire itself.

So there we have this iced-over wall, certainly some of its top layer as well made from ice, but at base - is it fused black stone made from dragonfire coated in feet of ice and snow?

This had potential.  

Where else, I wondered, might be constructed of fire magic?  We're told Bran the Builder built Winterfell too.  Was something up there?  Had Winterfell walls been constructed of fused black stone to keep ice magic out?

They aren't.  And it became fairly clear to me that something altogether different was happening at Winterfell. The Winterfell crypts were cold for no reason, situated so close to the hot springs, and in fact the iciness of the wafts of cold from the crypts seemed far more reminiscent of the chilled air that came with the arrival of the Others.   All those cold icy statues and corpses lined up like sentinels for miles, one level deeper than the next, the oldest and deepest level caved in. They were like Watchers on the Wall made of stone.  And It's weird because up in the Godswood, the trees are described the same way, as watchers and sentinels and soldiers in this grove that contains the Heart tree, a bottomless freezing pool, and hot spring pools. Earth, ice, and fire in one place, the hot springs caused by the molten core of the earth, the freezing pool caused by a frozen core, and roots and water (the song of the Rhoyne?)  to circulate and connect them. With trees standing guard over it all.

We know there's something icy about the Starks.  We know there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.  I always thought this had to do with protecting the North from the Others even if they might be related to them!.  But thinking about the Wall possibly made of fire magic to restrain the magic from the Heart of Winter from spilling into Westeros proper, I wondered if perhaps the crypts served a similar but opposite purpose.  

Was the Heart of Summer, a source if not the source of fire magic in Westeros, being contained by ice magic in the crypts?

I can't pull quotes but I want to draw your attention to a few dream images you're already familiar with, by paraphrase:

* Jon sheathed in black ice with fiery sword

* Arya in a tunnel, kissing the cold earth, and shafts of fire spouting up from beneath

*Bran in that prophetic dream, he's climbing then falling from the tower towards the grounds of Winterfell, Bloodraven urging him to fly not fall, and beneath him a thousand men impaled on ice spears, and then swinging back that curtain of light - of truth I think now - to see the Heart of Winter, "and hot tears fell and burned his cheeks".

When he awakes, he names his direwolf Summer.

How to interpret Bran's vision?  I thought those were Greenseers on ice spikes that fell to Other magic, or maybe they were Greenseers but icy ones, the ice spears replacing roots.  But maybe, because he was falling towards the grounds of Winterfell, facing the ground, what he saw were his ancestors under the ground, the Starks of Winterfell, transformed by ice magic and death into guardians against fire magic.  What he saw at the actual Heart of Winter I don't know, but how curious his tears were so hot they burned his cheeks as if made of that hot spring water, and he woke to call his wolf Summer (a reaction I thought to the terrible sight, and I'm sure it was, but in context...).

So how might the Heart of Summer be in the midst of the icy North, guarded by ice magic and  icy Starks from diffusing as a source to the rest of Westeros?

If there is a Heart of Summer, a source for fire magic, it should be in Asshai or Valyria, right?  Fourteen Flames in one, and the shadow and blight of what seems nuclear fall out or something in the other.  Fiery or formerly fiery places.  Geothermal places.  In the south where they belong.

Once maybe, before the Arm of Dorne. But I would submit that whatever happened in Asshai was so horrendous an explosion in the Shadow that it either melted ice caps to swamp the Arm of Dorne, or the Children broke the Arm of Dorne not specifically to keep out immigrants, but to break the source of fire magic with ocean and the destruction and drought sweeping Essos. 

Valyria much later became the Heart of Summer for Essos, but never for Westeros.  It was no longer on the same continent. And when the Targs moved to mainland Westeros, it was only a matter of time before their dragons dwindled.  I know I've thought the Maesters might be responsible before, but I am just re-reading now and those dragons got progressively smaller. They weakened.  I think it no accident Dany had to birth dragons in Essos.

It's possible the only active source of fire magic for anyone not already imbued with it from Essos is at Winterfell.  And the seals that kept it contained possibly broke asunder when Theon burned it, which Summer saw - fire magic escaping - symbolically as a winged snake in the sky. 

I apologize for the lack of quotes.  I can't pull them with this tablet.  I don't even know what I've written I'm so tired, but will edit this in the next few days.

Am I off my head?  It wouldn't be the first time with speculation. But I think it makes logical sense of key points and anomalies, and most of all symbolism.  

Jon is a mix of earth magic, and potential ice and fire magic.  If there is a place where those magics funnel or catalyst or crucible to rebalance the seasons, won't it be at Winterfell, at the Heart Tree, with the Heart of Summer and possibly even Heart of Winter (at least connected when the Wall comes down) in the same place?  I think so.  Maybe ;)

 

 

Edited by Lady Barbrey

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Another great post. ♥

1 hour ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Unlike the walls of Storms End, where the spells disrupt fire magic

Did she say something about her magic not working while she was inside Storm's End?
Or was is this it?

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos II
Together they tied off the sail as the boat rocked beneath them. As Davos unshipped the oars and slid them into the choppy black water, he said, "Who rowed you to Renly?"
"There was no need," she said. "He was unprotected. But here . . . this Storm's End is an old place. There are spells woven into the stones. Dark walls that no shadow can pass—ancient, forgotten, yet still in place."

 

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Would you consider Summerhall to be part of this whole idea? Winterfell, Summerhall, two opposites, although we don't know if Summerhall was built with any sort of sorcery (although there was an alleged sorcerers around during the time of its construction). And we don't know who came up with the name of the castle, but Bran naming his direwolf Summer and the connection that exists between Bran and Bloodraven does make me wonder if there isn't some kind of a thread here.

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Winterfell is the stronghold of the Ice Kings, the Kings of winter.  What little warmth exists come from hot springs deep underground.  There is always heat deep below ground.  A weakening in the rocks allow heat to come to surface.  Hardhome might be another example of a place with hot springs.  You don't need magic to have a hot spring. 

The Starks and Jon Snow are the walking ice in this story.  There is nothing of the fire in them. 

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4 hours ago, wia said:

Another great post. ♥

Did she say something about her magic not working while she was inside Storm's End?
Or was is this it?

 

Thanks!

Yes, that's the quote.  Her shadows can't pass.  

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2 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Thanks!

Yes, that's the quote.  Her shadows can't pass.  

Can her shadows pass the Wall though? She herself never crossed it, right? I wonder how would her magic work beyond the wall.

I'm just thinking that it's not that SE was making her magic weak, it's that her magic couldn't pass it's walls.

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2 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Would you consider Summerhall to be part of this whole idea? Winterfell, Summerhall, two opposites, although we don't know if Summerhall was built with any sort of sorcery (although there was an alleged sorcerers around during the time of its construction). And we don't know who came up with the name of the castle, but Bran naming his direwolf Summer and the connection that exists between Bran and Bloodraven does make me wonder if there isn't some kind of a thread here.

I did think of Summerhall as I was writing because it seemed to me the magic needed for dragon rebirth just wouldn't be strong enough.  But further than that - I would have to go into the texts to re-examine.

The place I'm most curious about is Casterly Rock.

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3 minutes ago, wia said:

Can her shadows pass the Wall though? She herself never crossed it, right? I wonder how would her magic work beyond the wall.

I'm just thinking that it's not that SE was making her magic weak, it's that her magic couldn't pass it's walls.

Her magical creature could not pass of its own volition so she had to get past the walls and then birth it.  Storms End did not make her weak.  But it did disrupt her magic. Once on the other side - could she use magic again or was that a programmed shadow ( like the wights at Winterfell), so she just had to deliver it? Would have to look at it again in more detail. 

If Mel crosses I expect her magic to work similar to earth magic.  She can cross, her shadows can't.  But she can access her magic again on the other side, which is what the Others can't do.

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Her magical creature could not pass of its own volition so she had to get past the walls and then birth it.  Storms End did not make her weak.  But it did disrupt her magic. Once on the other side - could she use magic again or was that a programmed shadow ( like the wights at Winterfell), so she just had to deliver it? Would have to look at it again in more detail. 

If Mel crosses I expect her magic to work similar to earth magic.  She can cross, her shadows can't.  But she can access her magic again on the other side, which is what the Others can't do.

Hmmm... My memory on Mel's magic is bad tbh.

My understanding is that Mel can pass with the shadow within her but her shadow itself can not. So she had to get inside the walls to release the shadow. It wasn't the case with Renly as there was no magical walls around him.

I do guess Mel can pass the Wall herself just fine, but her shadows couldn't just as Jon-Ghost link doesn't work. But the fact that her magic works better on the Wall is weird to me (can you find the quote on that when you have time, please? - I don't remember it at all, so I don't even know what words to look up.).

Also we assume that the Others magic won't work beyond the Wall 'cause the source is on the other side. Couldn't we assume the same for Mel? - The source of her magic is on this side, so it won't work beyond the Wall?

So if
- Storm's End, god-proof, magic-passing-proof, built of grey stone, supposedly with Brandon the Builder's or Children's participation doesn't make Mel's magic stronger
- The Wall, others-proof, magic-passing-proof built of we-don't-know-what by Brandon the Builder supposedly with the Children does make her magic stronger
then what about
- Dragonstone, built of black stone by Valyrians using Valyrian magic, full of dragonglass?
Did Mel ever say anything about it influencing her magic somehow?

'Cause I'd think that if Mel's magic was to be influenced positively somewhere in Westeros, it'd be Dragonstone.

 

Edited by wia

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8 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

snip

 

Couple of quick things that jumped out at me:

The children broke the Arm not to rid the continent of First Men, but to stop the influx of men coming over from Essos. I imagine they felt they could deal with the ones that were already there, but more and more arriving every day is a problem that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. It's been said that the Neck was a second attempt to break the land, but it failed.

And speaking of the Neck and geothermal activity: there must be some reason why the largest, fiercest lizard lions exist in the Neck and not farther south in Dorne or the Reach. In the eastern U.S. where I live, the largest gators are in Florida, where they can also grow lemons, but lemon-growing fades out far to the south of where gators cease to be common.

Also, the Others are creatures of ice and can walk on top of snow like it was granite. So why on earth would anyone think a giant wall of ice would stop them? If it's the wards that keep them at bay, then why bother building a wall, or at least building it so big? If the Wall is a creation of ice magic, and ice magic emits from the LoAW, then doesn't it stand to reason that the wall is their construction and is designed to prevent humans from migrating north?

As for people's dreams and visions, I try not to understand them. That way madness lies.

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9 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

. It's been said that the Neck was a second attempt to break the land, but it failed.

And speaking of the Neck and geothermal activity: there must be some reason why the largest, fiercest lizard lions exist in the Neck and not farther south in Dorne or the Reach. In the eastern U.S. where I live, the largest gators are in Florida, where they can also grow lemons, but lemon-growing fades out far to the south of where gators cease to be common.

This actually made me remember one thing.

Swamps and bogs accumulate peat. And peat is a fuel and thus wildfires. But it doesn't burn, it smoulders for days and months and years and it releases toxic smog. Peat slowly smoulders through all of it's depth (1-2 meters) and rather high temperatures that would kill a human are preserved inside the burnt-out areas for a while. So it might be warmer than we think in Neck.

Should the bogs and swamps be dried out (for agricultural purposes or to use peat as fuel), there will be a major wildfire that will require fully covering the area with a good amount of water (reason for hammer of the waters?). Drying out swamps and bogs also leads to major carbon dioxide emissions (reason for seasons?).

This is OT though.

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3 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Couple of quick things that jumped out at me:

The children broke the Arm not to rid the continent of First Men, but to stop the influx of men coming over from Essos. I imagine they felt they could deal with the ones that were already there, but more and more arriving every day is a problem that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. It's been said that the Neck was a second attempt to break the land, but it failed.

And speaking of the Neck and geothermal activity: there must be some reason why the largest, fiercest lizard lions exist in the Neck and not farther south in Dorne or the Reach. In the eastern U.S. where I live, the largest gators are in Florida, where they can also grow lemons, but lemon-growing fades out far to the south of where gators cease to be common.

Also, the Others are creatures of ice and can walk on top of snow like it was granite. So why on earth would anyone think a giant wall of ice would stop them? If it's the wards that keep them at bay, then why bother building a wall, or at least building it so big? If the Wall is a creation of ice magic, and ice magic emits from the LoAW, then doesn't it stand to reason that the wall is their construction and is designed to prevent humans from migrating north?

As for people's dreams and visions, I try not to understand them. That way madness lies.

My argument includes that the Wall isn't a creation of ice magic, as we've been led to believe, but of fire magic, so you and I are following the same logic there but from different ends.

No one's quite sure why the Children broke the Arm or even if they did do it, the Maesters offer scientific explanations as well; I'm satisfied with either though the Children is more interesting.

I absolutely agree about the Neck, and it was you posting about lizard lions in a prior thread that made me even give it a thought. 

So this is for you and @wia too in partial answer to her post above and to clarify my post: I think all active geothermal areas with outlets like hotsprings or volcanoes connected to the molten core of the planet are a source of fire magic.  But a Heart would be large enough to disperse through most of the continent.

So I think whatever happened to Asshai in Essos happened in microcosm at Moat Cailin (our attention is drawn to its creatures usually from southern hot climates, its ghost stone reminiscent of ghost grass, the site of an obvious disaster like Asshai) - because its geothermic activity at that time was still connected physically or magically through the Arm of Dorne to Asshai.  So the Children wiped it out either through the same swamping of the Arm or separately - the tales aren't sure which and it doesn't really matter.  Those lizard lions are great evidence of a previous hot microcosm environment where creatures of heat and people with fire affinities might have congregated. The walls of the structure suggest more advanced technology than the First Men should have been capable of at that time. Was it these people around Moat Cailin that the Others were originally created to combat before or after the Arm? Don't know.  All conjecture.  But they were created to battle people of some kind and fire magic people seems logical.

Dreams and visions and prophecies - you might have given up but most of us haven't. Kernels of truth amongst the details but disentangling requires context and I've provided one possible context for one interpretation while also including other interpretations that don't fit that context but might well fit another.

You made a leap outside the box when you decided that the Others might have made the Wall.  All I am asking is that you make another leap outside it to consider dragon riders might have helped make it instead.  They're both leaps because the official story is that the Children, giants and humans were involved.  No one mentions Others or Dragon Riders.

 

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1 hour ago, wia said:

Hmmm... My memory on Mel's magic is bad tbh.

My understanding is that Mel can pass with the shadow within her but her shadow itself can not. So she had to get inside the walls to release the shadow. It wasn't the case with Renly as there was no magical walls around him.

I do guess Mel can pass the Wall herself just fine, but her shadows couldn't just as Jon-Ghost link doesn't work. But the fact that her magic works better on the Wall is weird to me (can you find the quote on that when you have time, please? - I don't remember it at all, so I don't even know what words to look up.).

Also we assume that the Others magic won't work beyond the Wall 'cause the source is on the other side. Couldn't we assume the same for Mel? - The source of her magic is on this side, so it won't work beyond the Wall?

So if
- Storm's End, god-proof, magic-passing-proof, built of grey stone, supposedly with Brandon the Builder's or Children's participation doesn't make Mel's magic stronger
- The Wall, others-proof, magic-passing-proof built of we-don't-know-what by Brandon the Builder supposedly with the Children does make her magic stronger
then what about
- Dragonstone, built of black stone by Valyrians using Valyrian magic, full of dragonglass?
Did Mel ever say anything about it influencing her magic somehow?

'Cause I'd think that if Mel's magic was to be influenced positively somewhere in Westeros, it'd be Dragonstone.

 

Mel's magic might have weaker anywhere but Dragonstone, where she's apparently lived for a few years before the story even begins.

The difference at the Wall is that by that time Winterfell had been breached and dragons reborn to the world.  So she's no weaker on the way to the Wall and enhanced at the Wall?

You're making me think of mechanics which I'm not good at! But you are, I've seen it on other posts, so hopefully you'll help me instead of vice versa.

Your scenario is my understanding too.

I have no way of pulling quotes, the search Westeros thing doesn't work on this tablet.  Mel says her magic is stronger at the Wall and thinks it might be a hinge of the World.  Could be, but as her modus operandi is to make true observations but interpret them incorrectly, I'm unconvinced of the hinge thing.  The Wall was built at the narrowest point it could be to separate the Far North from the North - it was a practical and logistical decision to build it there, so the hinge thing doesn't ring true to me.  So why then does the Wall increase her fire magic?

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12 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

It occurred randomly to me that Karstark's words are: "The Sun of Winter".

Cool!  Or hot!  

I think the Starks' original purpose was as its guardians to both prevent fire magic getting out but also perhaps to protect it.  The earth needs places like this to survive. I think the Children were caught in a conundrum.  They couldn't destroy all sources of heat and fire magic or the land would die; what they needed to do was destroy the ones they couldn't control and  control the ones they could.

But that artificial control must be connected to the seasonal inconsistency.  I think.

Sun could be a play on words to 'son' of course, and they are a cadet branch, but if you take the Dornish example, the play on sun/son means both.  Karstarks might be warmer versions of our Starks!  Not needed in the crypts.

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31 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Mel's magic might have weaker anywhere but Dragonstone, where she's apparently lived for a few years before the story even begins.

The difference at the Wall is that by that time Winterfell had been breached and dragons reborn to the world.  So she's no weaker on the way to the Wall and enhanced at the Wall?

You're making me think of mechanics which I'm not good at! But you are, I've seen it on other posts, so hopefully you'll help me instead of vice versa.

Your scenario is my understanding too.

I have no way of pulling quotes, the search Westeros thing doesn't work on this tablet.  Mel says her magic is stronger at the Wall and thinks it might be a hinge of the World.  Could be, but as her modus operandi is to make true observations but interpret them incorrectly, I'm unconvinced of the hinge thing.  The Wall was built at the narrowest point it could be to separate the Far North from the North - it was a practical and logistical decision to build it there, so the hinge thing doesn't ring true to me.  So why then does the Wall increase her fire magic?

Found it.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon I

Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather. The sight of them arm in arm was drawing curious looks. They will be whispering in the barracks tonight. “If you can truly see the morrow in your flames, tell me when and where the next wildling attack will come.” He slipped his arm free.
“R’hllor sends us what visions he will, but I shall seek for this man Tormund in the flames.” Melisandre’s red lips curled into a smile. “I have seen you in my fires, Jon Snow.”
“Is that a threat, my lady? Do you mean to burn me too?”
“You mistake my meaning.” She gave him a searching look. “I fear that I make you uneasy, Lord Snow.”
Jon did not deny it. “The Wall is no place for a woman.”
“You are wrong. I have dreamed of your Wall, Jon Snow. Great was the lore that raised it, and great the spells locked beneath its ice. We walk beneath one of the hinges of the world.” Melisandre gazed up at it, her breath a warm moist cloud in the air. “This is my place as it is yours, and soon enough you may have grave need of me. Do not refuse my friendship, Jon. I have seen you in the storm, hard-pressed, with enemies on every side. You have so many enemies. Shall I tell you their names?”
“I know their names.”
“Do not be so certain.” The ruby at Melisandre’s throat gleamed red. “It is not the foes who curse you to your face that you must fear, but those who smile when you are looking and sharpen their knives when you turn your back. You would do well to keep your wolf close beside you. Ice, I see, and daggers in the dark. Blood frozen red and hard, and naked steel. It was very cold.”
“It is always cold on the Wall.”
“You think so?”
“I know so, my lady.”
“Then you know nothing, Jon Snow,” she whispered.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

She gazed at Ghost. “May I touch your … wolf?”
The thought made Jon uneasy. “Best not.”
“He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?”
“Yes, but …”
“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song.
The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.
Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so …”
“… warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.
Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”
The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.
Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s … queer.”
“You think so?” She knelt and scratched Ghost behind his ear. “Your Wall is a queer place, but there is power here, if you will use it. Power in you, and in this beast. You resist it, and that is your mistake. Embrace it. Use it.
I am not a wolf, he thought. “And how would I do that?”
“I can show you.” Melisandre draped one slender arm over Ghost, and the direwolf licked her face. “The Lord of Light in his wisdom made us male and female, two parts of a greater whole. In our joining there is power. Power to make life. Power to make light. Power to cast shadows.”
“Shadows.” The world seemed darker when he said it. “Every man who walks the earth casts a shadow on the world. Some are thin and weak, others long and dark. You should look behind you, Lord Snow. The moon has kissed you and etched your shadow upon the ice twenty feet tall.” 
Jon glanced over his shoulder. The shadow was there, just as she had said, etched in moonlight against the Wall. A girl in grey on a dying horse, he thought. Coming here, to you. Arya. He turned back to the red priest-ess. Jon could feel her warmth. She has power. The thought came unbidden, seizing him with iron teeth, but this was not a woman he cared to be indebted to, not even for his little sister. “Dalla told me something once. Val’s sister, Mance Rayder’s wife. She said that sorcery was a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it.”
“A wise woman.” Melisandre rose, her red robes stirring in the wind. “A sword without a hilt is still a sword, though, and a sword is a fine thing to have when foes are all about.

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

I'll try to come to this topic this weekend to be able to pay it proper attention and thought. 'Cause right now I've got nothing. :wacko:

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What is the magic of the children of the forest supposed to be? With what they did with the Arm of Dorne and with the Neck, it seems to be about being able to manipulate the elements, no?

To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you. I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. We swear it by ice and fire.

Maybe the magic that raised the Wall is made of both ice and fire magic. Alysanne's dragon is stopped by the ice magic and the Others are stopped by the fire magic.

10 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Unlike the walls of Storms End, where the spells disrupt fire magic.

My understanding of this is that it's not her magic it disturbs. The magic woven in the walls does It's not the fire magic it disturbs, though. The walls of Storm's End don't allow for the shadows she births to pass.

And she has gone beyond the Wall. I don't know if she was there during the battle beneath the Wall in ASOS, and where she might have burned Orell's eagle from, but Mel did go beyond the Wall in her chapter, in ADWD.

As they walked beneath the Wall, she slipped her arm through his. Morgan and Merrel went before them, Ghost came prowling at them heels. The priestess did not speak, but she slowed her pace deliberately, and where she walked the ice began to drip. He will not fail to notice that. (Mel I, ADWD 31)

I think there are answers in that Reed oath, though. 

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1 hour ago, wia said:

This actually made me remember one thing.

Swamps and bogs accumulate peat. And peat is a fuel and thus wildfires. But it doesn't burn, it smoulders for days and months and years and it releases toxic smog. Peat slowly smoulders through all of it's depth (1-2 meters) and rather high temperatures that would kill a human are preserved inside the burnt-out areas for a while. So it might be warmer than we think in Neck.

Should the bogs and swamps be dried out (for agricultural purposes or to use peat as fuel), there will be a major wildfire that will require fully covering the area with a good amount of water (reason for hammer of the waters?). Drying out swamps and bogs also leads to major carbon dioxide emissions (reason for seasons?).

This is OT though.

I believe George is quite aware of science in key places so all is welcome!  I'm not sure how this would connect as I'm advocating for a much different landscape 10,000 years ago, but it may well crop up.  Your answer encouraged me to Google peat bogs!  

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28 minutes ago, wia said:

Found it.

I'll try to come to this topic this weekend to be able to pay it proper attention and thought. 'Cause right now I've got nothing. :wacko:

Thanks Wia for the quotes.  That last one seems particularly powerful.

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29 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

What is the magic of the children of the forest supposed to be? With what they did with the Arm of Dorne and with the Neck, it seems to be about being able to manipulate the elements, no?

To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and heart and harvest we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you. I swear it by earth and water. I swear it by bronze and iron. We swear it by ice and fire.

Maybe the magic that raised the Wall is made of both ice and fire magic. Alysanne's dragon is stopped by the ice magic and the Others are stopped by the fire magic.

My understanding of this is that it's not her magic it disturbs. The magic woven in the walls does It's not the fire magic it disturbs, though. The walls of Storm's End don't allow for the shadows she births to pass.

And she has gone beyond the Wall. I don't know if she was there during the battle beneath the Wall in ASOS, and where she might have burned Orell's eagle from, but Mel did go beyond the Wall in her chapter, in ADWD.

As they walked beneath the Wall, she slipped her arm through his. Morgan and Merrel went before them, Ghost came prowling at them heels. The priestess did not speak, but she slowed her pace deliberately, and where she walked the ice began to drip. He will not fail to notice that. (Mel I, ADWD 31)

I think there are answers in that Reed oath, though. 

I would have interpreted Alysanne's dragon that way too.  As I said, this theory only began when Ran said the dragon did not want to pass because it could sense the ice magic beyond the Wall emanating from the Heart of Winter.  So in this case, it is not the Wall itself that is a barrier for dragons, but the  antithetical ice magic beyond it that the dragon instinctively recognizes as a threat.

Good quote.  Mel obviously doesn't have the same instincts as Silverwing.  It shows fire magic works beyond the Wall as well.

But I think we need to consider what she is drawing upon if she's feeling so much more potent and can do things she had never done before when she's at the Wall, because it sounds dangerous to mess with the Wall's magical protections.  If she is drawing on dragonfire and the Wall's protective fire magic's, then she could very well be weakening its magic.  If she is involved in a resurrection of Jon, she might damage those protections to the point she creates a breech.  This might be a real possibility for the Wall coming down and the Others coming through.

The Reed oath is amazingly suggestive, I agree.  And doesn't the Heart tree at Winterfell, with its freezing and fiery pools, seem the perfect place to make such an oath?  But it's also an odd oath. The swearing on ice and fire - both - seems old to me, an ancient part of the oath perhaps, whereas when they mention iron it seems new, because iron came with the Andals we're told.  What do you think of it?

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