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Let's Get Kraken

What Do You Think Cultural Appropriation Is?

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Just now, Heartofice said:

You don't have a problem with him being arrested or with his joke?

His arrest.

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I would have thought me putting quotes around the word joke would have been enough to show that I don't accept that as a defence. I'm not sure I really accept that it was a joke, after all this guy has support from, and is supporting, people who would very much like to gas some Jews.

 

But yeah "it was a joke." "Kill all the black people" it was a joke. "All Muslims are terrorists" it was a joke. "The poor are parasites" it was a joke.

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1 minute ago, TrueMetis said:

I would have thought me putting quotes around the word joke would have been enough to show that I don't accept that as a defence. I'm not sure I really accept that it was a joke, after all this guy has support from, and is supporting, people who would very much like to gas some Jews.

 

But yeah "it was a joke." "Kill all the black people" it was a joke. "All Muslims are terrorists" it was a joke. "The poor are parasites" it was a joke.

I'd watch the above video if possible.

Back on topic, Jonathan Pie, who is a pretty popular youtube comedian here in the UK and is actually generally pretty left wing and tory hating has done stuff more on the CA topic. He doesn't really get at the subtlety here but I thought I'd post it. Those outside the UK might not be able to see it, I dunno
 

 

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3 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Ok fair, I overstated the case, as you are right, there are lots of celebs who have simply backed down or explained their actions. Possibly the reason is that most people see these cases as pretty frivolous and don't agree with those loud critical voices claiming CA. 

Being called a racist can stick however, and if it does stick then your career can be over. Rosanne Barr's career is done for a tweet which may or may not have been racist ( she denies it but who knows). I'm sure every celebrity is rightfully fearful of being tarred with that brush. 
 

The case of Count Dankula who was arrested and fined for posting up a video of a dog doing a nazi salute as a joke ( ok I thought he was put in jail, but seems it was a fine, but the point still stands) is not the first person to be arrested for jokes on Twitter in the UK and the danger that this goes further. My point being that 'outrage culture' can spill into real life and have real consequences for people if we aren't watching. 

You overstated WHAT fucking case? You have no case. You can't claim anyone whose career was ended by accusations of cultural appropriation. Your "people are going to jail for jokes in the UK" was walked back to "one guy got fined." This is the most pathetic performance at making an argument I've seen on these boards in some time. And yet you expect to keep taking your stupid arguments seriously?

Let's go over what you've accomplished here.

1. Misunderstood what people are talking about with cultural appropriation.

2. Claimed to simultaneously be an expert on American culture despite not being a native, while telling other people they are unqualified to comment on British culture.

3. Fabricated a rash of career-enders suffered by innocent white people at the hands of vicious, out of control people of color.

4. Shifted the discussion from cultural appropriation to racist jokes and comments, and claimed that the real victim is a provably racist white celebrity.

5. Fabricated a case of state imprisonment of an individual for a racist "joke" that's not actually a joke.

6. Insisted that you were still right despite having all of your claims blown up.

But I think, when I put all the pieces together, I can see what you're doing. This is very ambitious performance art, because no one could possibly be this clueless and convinced of their own unimpeachable moral authority on something they've been completely wrong about at every turn except... American Republican politicians. 

As much as it pains me to ruin your career and subject you to imprisonment a fine, I must formally accuse you of appropriating the culture of the American Republican Party. A squad of Antifa is on their way to your location to take you in. May Malcolm X have mercy on your soul.

Edited by DanteGabriel

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8 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

You overstated WHAT fucking case? You have no case. You can't claim anyone whose career was ended by accusations of cultural appropriation. Your "people are going to jail for jokes in the UK" was walked back to "one guy got fined." This is the most pathetic performance at making an argument I've seen on these boards in some time. And yet you expect to keep taking your stupid arguments seriously?

Let's go over what you've accomplished here.

1. Misunderstood what people are talking about with cultural appropriation.

2. Claimed to simultaneously be an expert on American culture despite not being a native, while telling other people they are unqualified to comment on British culture.

3. Fabricated a rash of career-enders suffered by innocent white people at the hands of vicious, out of control people of color.

4. Shifted the discussion from cultural appropriation to racist jokes and comments, and claimed that the real victim is a provably racist white celebrity.

5. Fabricated a case of state imprisonment of an individual for a racist "joke" that's not actually a joke.

6. Insisted that you were still right despite having all of your claims blown up.

But I think, when I put all the pieces together, I can see what you're doing. This is very ambitious performance art, because no one could possibly be this clueless and convinced of their own unimpeachable moral authority on something they've been completely wrong about at every turn except... American Republican politicians. 

As much as it pains me to ruin your career and subject you to imprisonment a fine, I must formally accuse you of appropriating the culture of the American Republican Party. A squad of Antifa is on their way to your location to take you in. May Malcolm X have mercy on your soul.

Now I have held me hands up when I was wrong or went too far with anything, which I'd say was the adult thing to do and the only way to have a conversation fairly. I don't think I've acted poorly in this discussion. 

If I turn the mirror around on you and some other people on this board however:

- You haven't once engaged with the subject or anything I've said. Your entire contribution has been to attack me personally. 

- Your language is very aggressive, full of swear words and inappropriate and is incredibly one sided and unhelpful. How can anyone discuss anything if you behave like a child?

- You have used racial language to describe me and my viewpoints, based on your own stereotyping of racial attributes. 

- You have misrepresented what I've said and tried straw-manning me at every turn.

- Rather than discuss CA on this thread, you and others are more than happy to switch topics to ones where you feel you can push a point.. such as Brexit ( a complicated topic you seem to know little about) 

I'll admit, I am getting a little irritated at your posts and really I should just ignore you, but that doesn't appear to be an option on this board. Your reaction is completely uncalled for. If you had even once made an attempt to discuss the issues or respond to anything I've said (which at least Butterbumps has done) then I might give you more slack, but you haven't. 
 

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20 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

You overstated WHAT fucking case? You have no case. You can't claim anyone whose career was ended by accusations of cultural appropriation. Your "people are going to jail for jokes in the UK" was walked back to "one guy got fined." This is the most pathetic performance at making an argument I've seen on these boards in some time. And yet you expect to keep taking your stupid arguments seriously?

Let's go over what you've accomplished here.

1. Misunderstood what people are talking about with cultural appropriation.

2. Claimed to simultaneously be an expert on American culture despite not being a native, while telling other people they are unqualified to comment on British culture.

3. Fabricated a rash of career-enders suffered by innocent white people at the hands of vicious, out of control people of color.

4. Shifted the discussion from cultural appropriation to racist jokes and comments, and claimed that the real victim is a provably racist white celebrity.

5. Fabricated a case of state imprisonment of an individual for a racist "joke" that's not actually a joke.

6. Insisted that you were still right despite having all of your claims blown up.

But I think, when I put all the pieces together, I can see what you're doing. This is very ambitious performance art, because no one could possibly be this clueless and convinced of their own unimpeachable moral authority on something they've been completely wrong about at every turn except... American Republican politicians. 

As much as it pains me to ruin your career and subject you to imprisonment a fine, I must formally accuse you of appropriating the culture of the American Republican Party. A squad of Antifa is on their way to your location to take you in. May Malcolm X have mercy on your soul.

7.  Spent a ton of digital ink about how he’s a POC, so as to thwart accusations of privilege, then forget this was the claim when it was convenient to use himself as an example of a non-POC to say that non-POC would face the same discrimmination as POC about hairstyles in the workplace.

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1 minute ago, butterbumps! said:

7.  Spent a ton of digital ink about how he’s a POC, so as to thwart accusations of privilege, then forget this was the claim when it was convenient to use himself as an example of a non-POC to say that non-POC would face the same discrimmination as POC about hairstyles in the workplace.

what?! That is totally incorrect. I'm not black. Thats what I meant.

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2 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Oh yes, that poor far-right supporting racist piece of garbage. He's so oppressed at the fallout from his "joke." Such "real consequences" in the form of getting a 1/3 of a million dollars from far-right bigots who clearly are just concerned about free speech and not hoping to normalize hateful rhetoric.

It wasn't a "joke", it was a joke. He isn't racist. He isn't far-right, nor does he support the far-right. The funds he received all go towards the legal fees (trying to make sure his case doesn't set a precedent and won't happen to others in the future), the rest is donated to a charity. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And how the hell would the fact that he managed to raise enough money take away the wrongfulness of his conviction in the first place? Not to mention that this procedure was dragged out for two years, time which he spent in uncertainty, not knowing if he's going to jail or not. 

And here you are pretending as if nothing wrong was done to him, after all he was only sentenced to a £800 fine for a joke

(Oh, and perhaps not surprisingly, I did not get an answer from you as to what terrible things I believe in, after you have so clearly stated that I do believe in terrible things. Who would have thought... )

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Now I have held me hands up when I was wrong or went too far with anything, which I'd say was the adult thing to do and the only way to have a conversation fairly. I don't think I've acted poorly in this discussion. 

If I turn the mirror around on you and some other people on this board however:

- You haven't once engaged with the subject or anything I've said. Your entire contribution has been to attack me personally. 

- Your language is very aggressive, full of swear words and inappropriate and is incredibly one sided and unhelpful. How can anyone discuss anything if you behave like a child?

- You have used racial language to describe me and my viewpoints, based on your own stereotyping of racial attributes. 

- You have misrepresented what I've said and tried straw-manning me at every turn.

- Rather than discuss CA on this thread, you and others are more than happy to switch topics to ones where you feel you can push a point.. such as Brexit ( a complicated topic you seem to know little about) 

I'll admit, I am getting a little irritated at your posts and really I should just ignore you, but that doesn't appear to be an option on this board. Your reaction is completely uncalled for. If you had even once made an attempt to discuss the issues or respond to anything I've said (which at least Butterbumps has done) then I might give you more slack, but you haven't. 
 

You exaggerated claims repeatedly, which makes it seem like you're not arguing in good faith. Maybe instead of being contrite about your false claims (but still insisting you're right about something after you shift the goalposts, which doesn't really speak well for your good faith) you could actually try and educate yourself and be more careful in your claims so that this thread isn't a constant referendum on your bullshit alternating with half-assed acknowledgements of your mistakes.

And if you'll look carefully (difficult, I know) I've kept most of my criticism based on your arguments and not on you. If you can't distinguish between "that's a stupid argument" and "you're stupid" then that's on you and maybe you should wade in the kiddie pool instead of trying to be the one who sorts out Americans' ideas of cultural appropriation and racism. But if my salty language is so distressing to you, I'll be sure, in the future, to refer to your arguments in less profane terms. "Festering dog's vomit," not "fucking bullshit" -- how about that?

I've engaged with the subject far enough to destroy your claims of career-ending accusations of CA. So to tell me I haven't engaged with the subject is pretty incorrect, especially from someone who saw how badly the career-ending discussion failed so you had to switch the subject to racist jokes.

I assume your accusation of my racist language is because I referred to your arguments as "mighty white"? I see you're appropriating the language of racial grievance to defend your own defenses of white privilege. Very slick. But let me educate you: "white" is a social construct of privilege, not a race. What I meant by that critique is that your opinions consistently favor the feelings of white people over the concerns of people of color. You consistently show more concern for people accused of racism or appropriation than you do for people who are actually marginalized.

I don't believe I ever brought up Brexit, so save that accusation for someone else. Don't try and make me the proxy for everyone who has ever done you wrong in this thread. It's another reason you've shown yourself incapable of sustaining an intelligent position in this topic. And again, the accusation of topic-shifting is very rich coming from someone who responded "Okay, I exaggerated the social harm from CA accusations, but isn't Roseanne Barr the real victim?" Holy fuck, can you not see how terrible and transparently incompetent your arguments have been?

But here, you brought up Brexit again, so let me just point out that multiple other posters, including other British people, made arguments and used evidence to show that there was plenty of racism and xenophobia involved in the Brexit. That's when you tried to hide behind your own unique expertise about the racial attitudes of the UK (despite claiming that you never really talk about racism there).

I'm struggling to think of a single thing you've said in this thread that has actually held up to scrutiny. Maybe that's why you're so desperate to turn the cultural appropriation thread into a thread about racism? I suggest you start a separate "Has the backlash against racist jokes gone too far?" thread for your defense of racist dipshits making racist not-jokes and suffering social consequences.

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On 11/28/2018 at 7:35 AM, Heartofice said:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/elliewoodward/katy-perry-addressed-cultural-appropriation-and-people-have

She apologised. She had to apologise to save her career
. She didn't sit down and say 'oh well hang on, lets have a thoughtful conversation about the whys and wherefores of this criticism around CA', she wouldn't be able to do that without her critics doubling down on her. 

At least you are acknowledging that there are over reactions to CA. That is a start. I'm also acknowledging that there are parts of the right that like to jump on these incident and use them as ammo to paint the left as crazy. But they get given a lot of ammo to do it with. 

 

"Save her career"? Bullshit. It is complete and utter nonsense to suggest that her career needed to be "saved" (please define as she has made over 125$MM). You truly believe that politely requesting attention and an audience to have a roundtable or respect of and for minorities would result in anything other than ... nothing? Please provide 10 examples where this happened that you would like to emulate across all conversations about CA.

 

Your reading comprehension is poor. I will not endorse tone-policing of minorities or anti-racist groups in order to avoid "giving ammo" to garbage people. Garbage people gonna garbage which was my point that you ignored. While you jump up and down and whine about overreactions to CA - legitimate gripes that are, in some cases, more histrionic than some (white-90%) people would like.

My point is that you should be more concerned about the concern trolling by the alt-reich that IS going after people's careers using the same outrage cycle but based in complete and utter bullshit. James Gunn (he's fine but kicked off GoG3), Joy Reid, Dan Harmon, Trevor Noah, etc. (List just off the top of my head)

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2 hours ago, DanteGabriel said:

You overstated WHAT fucking case? You have no case. You can't claim anyone whose career was ended by accusations of cultural appropriation. Your "people are going to jail for jokes in the UK" was walked back to "one guy got fined." This is the most pathetic performance at making an argument I've seen on these boards in some time. And yet you expect to keep taking your stupid arguments seriously?

Let's go over what you've accomplished here.

1. Misunderstood what people are talking about with cultural appropriation.

2. Claimed to simultaneously be an expert on American culture despite not being a native, while telling other people they are unqualified to comment on British culture.

3. Fabricated a rash of career-enders suffered by innocent white people at the hands of vicious, out of control people of color.

4. Shifted the discussion from cultural appropriation to racist jokes and comments, and claimed that the real victim is a provably racist white celebrity.

5. Fabricated a case of state imprisonment of an individual for a racist "joke" that's not actually a joke.

6. Insisted that you were still right despite having all of your claims blown up.

But I think, when I put all the pieces together, I can see what you're doing. This is very ambitious performance art, because no one could possibly be this clueless and convinced of their own unimpeachable moral authority on something they've been completely wrong about at every turn except... American Republican politicians. 

As much as it pains me to ruin your career and subject you to imprisonment a fine, I must formally accuse you of appropriating the culture of the American Republican Party. A squad of Antifa is on their way to your location to take you in. May Malcolm X have mercy on your soul.

Nah.  He's just a bad person.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/26/opinion/trump-supporters-bill-white-bryan-eure.html

Quote

. . . . They’re Just Bad People. Not all Trump support is ideological.

 

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4 hours ago, Heartofice said:

I'd watch the above video if possible.
 

I did, it doesn't change anything. In fact it's why I pointed out this guy is receiving support from, and supporting the alt-right. Which makes that guys central claim "it's making fun of Nazis" questionable. Because the Nazi's sure do seem to want to rally around this guy.

2 hours ago, SweetPea said:

It wasn't a "joke", it was a joke. He isn't racist. He isn't far-right, nor does he support the far-right. The funds he received all go towards the legal fees (trying to make sure his case doesn't set a precedent and won't happen to others in the future), the rest is donated to a charity. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Motherfucker's a member of UKIP. Someone doesn't have any idea of what they are talking about, but it's not me. "He isn't far-right, nor does he support the far-right" what a fucking joke.

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And how the hell would the fact that he managed to raise enough money take away the wrongfulness of his conviction in the first place? Not to mention that this procedure was dragged out for two years, time which he spent in uncertainty, not knowing if he's going to jail or not. 

There's no need to take away the wrongfulness, cause nothing wrong happened. Also if he's so worried about jail, you'd think he would pay the fine.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79teD7lP_dA See 2:40 in.

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And here you are pretending as if nothing wrong was done to him, after all he was only sentenced to a £800 fine for a joke.

I'm not pretending, I don't think anything wrong was done to him. Not everyone considers free speech an absolute.

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(Oh, and perhaps not surprisingly, I did not get an answer from you as to what terrible things I believe in, after you have so clearly stated that I do believe in terrible things. Who would have thought... )

Someone's got one hell of an ego. I responded to a post about trolls vs terrible people by saying there's no functional difference, not only did I not bring up you, even if yes you were a subject of discussion by other's in the response chain, I didn't say anything about what people believe.

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5 hours ago, Zorral said:

Wow, we're getting dangerously close to the NPC meme becoming a reality.

3 hours ago, TrueMetis said:

Motherfucker's a member of UKIP. Someone doesn't have any idea of what they are talking about, but it's not me. "He isn't far-right, nor does he support the far-right" what a fucking joke.

Lol, seriously? Being a member of UKIP now makes people far-right? And PJW and Sargon of Akkad are far-right too? Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. PJW is a run-of-the-mill conservative and Sargon is a liberal. You might want to consider watching the content of said people instead of blindly accepting what you read in an online article, if you want to be more informed. Sargon for example has a video where he takes the political compass test, and the results are pretty clear, he is a center-leftist.

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There's no need to take away the wrongfulness, cause nothing wrong happened. Also if he's so worried about jail, you'd think he would pay the fine.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79teD7lP_dA See 2:40 in.

Yeah, as I said, he made the decision not to pay it after legal counsel from his lawyer, they think they can challenge it and don't want this case to set a precedent.

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I'm not pretending, I don't think anything wrong was done to him. Not everyone considers free speech an absolute.

Ok, that's fair. Then I simply disagree, and think it's an extremely dangerous road to go down on, as is apparent from this case.

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Someone's got one hell of an ego. I responded to a post about trolls vs terrible people by saying there's no functional difference, not only did I not bring up you, even if yes you were a subject of discussion by other's in the response chain, I didn't say anything about what people believe.

Good dodge, you're technically correct, although I would say it's fairly apparent from the context of the discussion and from previous comments that you don't disagree with Zorral's opinion.

 

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On 11/1/2018 at 11:25 PM, Let's Get Kraken said:

So what do you consider cultural appropriation to be? How should the conversation around it be framed?

I identify as White British, but for the purpose of this thread I'm white English.

 

I realise I'm therefore coming from a place of privilege and reading this thread has reinforced this.  I try to think about whether something I do could reasonably offend another person, and if so, is it necessary that I do it.

 

This isn't an example of cultural appropriation, but I remember a group of Morris Dancers who went to Birmingham town centre and performed a traditional spring dance.  This "tradition" involved blacking their faces.  Now, they insisted this was in no way racist, but for goodness sake, how ignorant do you have to be to think this wouldn't offend people?  Everyone has a responsibility for their own actions and, to some extent, how these might be viewed by others.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-38559669

 

Coming back to the topic at hand, is it cultural appropriation for an English person (given that many view as the dominant culture of the UK) to wear a Scottish kilt to a wedding?  I can see how this can be inappropriate and even offensive - I'd be interested to know what others think.

 

What about cultures where race or ethnicity is not a defining factor as in this story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-43227761

This is about a university hockey club that had a "chav" party.  Is this an example of cultural appropriation or is it more about mocking a group that is considered lower class?  Would hosting a goth or an emo party have resulted in the same punishment?

 

Like I say, I realise the place of privilege I am coming from and that I cannot understand what it is like to be an oppressed culture, so I'd be genuinely interested to see what people think of the examples I've mentioned.

 

By the way, racism was absolutely a factor in Britain voting to leave the EU.  Although I know a bunch of people who aren't racist who voted Leave (in my own family), I know a ton of others for whom this was a major motivation.

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5 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Lol, seriously? Being a member of UKIP now makes people far-right? And PJW and Sargon of Akkad are far-right too? Again, you have no idea what you're talking about. PJW is a run-of-the-mill conservative and Sargon is a liberal. You might want to consider watching the content of said people instead of blindly accepting what you read in an online article, if you want to be more informed. Sargon for example has a video where he takes the political compass test, and the results are pretty clear, he is a center-leftist.

Yes and Yes. (Though for the former actually it's kind of mutual, UKIP is already far-right, but was using it's connection to those three to further that connection. Like a perpetual bullshit machine) I have watched their video's, that's why I know they're far right. Fucking hell "Sargon is a liberal" yeah, that's why he panders to the alt-right.

If Sargon "cultural marxism is totally real guys" of Akkad is a fucking liberal and Paul Joseph "soyboy" Watson editor of and contributor to infowar's is a run-of-the-mill conservative than I'm a full on communist.

Like if Sargon's actually a liberal maybe when white nationalists like Richard Spencer praise you for being among the "great entry points" for the alt-right you should distance yourself from that and stop using actual Nazi propaganda as a talking point.

Fucking hell this has gotten off topic.

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To make one very quick and minor point:

18 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Lol, seriously? Being a member of UKIP now makes people far-right?

It was always pretty close to the far-right, even from a conservative point of view. These days, UKIP has pretty much unquestionably moved to the far-right, to no one's surprise.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/04/ukip-far-right-extremists-bill-etheridge-gerard-batten

The fact Meechan joined UKIP just a few months ago, combined with him speaking at a rally to defend Tommy Robinson, makes a far-right label quite credible methinks.
The parallel with "humorist" Dieudonné in France, who eventually became a National Front candidate, comes to mind. The man started with what could be described as "bad humor" jokes, especially on Israel, and eventually turned out to actually be antisemitic.

Though I have to say, the line between bad/dark jokes and actual racism is incredibly hard to draw. I wouldn't generalize, or hastily condemn, preferring a case-by-case approach.
In this case, I have to say, I personally don't find the pug joke remotely funny. In fact, I find it a wee bit difficult to see it as a joke period.

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31 minutes ago, TrueMetis said:

Yes and Yes. (Though for the former actually it's kind of mutual, UKIP is already far-right, but was using it's connection to those three to further that connection. Like a perpetual bullshit machine) I have watched their video's, that's why I know they're far right. Fucking hell "Sargon is a liberal" yeah, that's why he panders to the alt-right.

That's completely false, he's done nothing but condemn the alt-right. His personal beliefs are right there on the video, you can watch it and see for yourself. Actually, I've just found another video which is from two years later where he takes another political test, and it again confirms - he is a liberal. You have nothing to support your claim that he is far-right.

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Like if Sargon's actually a liberal maybe when white nationalists like Richard Spencer praise you for being among the "great entry points" for the alt-right you should distance yourself from that and stop using actual Nazi propaganda as a talking point.

He did distance himself. Both from the alt-right and the far right. He has debated Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor, heavily disagreed with both of them. He's made numerous videos criticizing the alt-right or alt-right personalities. He hates them. He has a video literally titled "Nazis are bad".

It doesn't get any clearer than this - he is not far-right, and you either don't know what you're talking about, or you're lying.

Quote

Fucking hell this has gotten off topic.

I agree, let's stop here.

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13 hours ago, Neddy's Girl said:

What about cultures where race or ethnicity is not a defining factor as in this story:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-43227761

This is about a university hockey club that had a "chav" party.  Is this an example of cultural appropriation or is it more about mocking a group that is considered lower class?  Would hosting a goth or an emo party have resulted in the same punishment?

I think this would be a case of classism rather than cultural appropriation on the part of the hockey team.  It sounds like Chav style is so connected to the working class that mocking it is tantamount to mocking (and stereotyping) that class.  Whereas, I don’t think the other examples you gave, like goth or emo, have that same strong association to any particular class that would render a party featuring those styles classism.  I think the same would apply in the US, with things like “redneck” or “hillbilly” parties— I don’t think those are cool to do either, as it’s classist, and kind of inherently mean-spirited punching down when done by people from the middle class and beyond, even when not intended to be by any individual party-goer.   

Edited by butterbumps!

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