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What Do You Think Cultural Appropriation Is?

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43 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

Asians in the US have on average higher IQ than whites, by several points. This has been consistently confirmed by many studies over many years, and I haven't seen anybody dispute it.

The issues with IQ as a measurement are long and complicated. IE: It's not an actual objective measure of anything. 

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People are usually confusing higher levels of education and support for indvidual groups for education with innate intelligence.  These are not the same.  

Many groups of Jewish peoples and Asian peoples have a much higher respect and drive for education generally and higher education particularly than many others, and their families and communities push it very very very hard and support it.  Other groups -- don't, or may not.

Where I grew up it was stated as fact by educators and many others that Lutherans were more intelligent because we on average tended to score higher on the universal test scores than the Catholic kids did.  But I know that's because the home environments for school and education emphasized different things.  Having as many very smart Catholic friends in high school I wasn't about to say that me the Lutheran was smarter, that's for sure!

 

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8 hours ago, SweetPea said:

Asians in the US have on average higher IQ than whites, by several points. This has been consistently confirmed by many studies over many years, and I haven't seen anybody dispute it.

Then you haven't really looked.

Because if you had, what you would have seen is people disputing, left and right, whether (as Galactus notes) IQ itself is an 'objective fact' and whether it actually is a measure of anything real, or just an arbitrary number that measures how good you are at IQ tests.

But you know what you would also have seen? And what we've all seen?

We've all seen racists use this 'fact' as a proxy for what they really want to talk about, which is the smaller variation in the other direction between black people and white people. The only reason they talk about higher scores by Asians is as a prophylactic, to say 'see, this can't be racist'. There is literally no other reason you'd cite the one and not the other: if you genuinely believe IQ variation represents a real difference, you'd mention both.

So what you're actually doing here is trying to mask racism. Again. Unsuccessfully.

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12 hours ago, SweetPea said:

Not about work ethic specifically, I'm asking in a general sense. Let's say you have two groups of people, and one group is objectively worse at something than the other group. Can you state that fact without any morality attached to it?

You can state something but just saying that one group of people is better at something than the other group and leaving it at that is just too simplistic to be taken seriously.

If we say that one ethnic group of people have shorter/longer lifespan and show some stats (correct or otherwise) that support that claim, it means nothing without getting into the reasons why that might be the case. I mean, if you take that data and only get to the conclusion that group A has worse genetics than group B, you would be seriously mistaken. You need to take into account very different circumstances members of these two groups live in, the different opportunities they are presented with, different problems they face on daily basis, different quality of education, health-care etc. It's a vastly more complex issue than "oh, this statistics shows it and that's a fact".

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13 hours ago, SweetPea said:

Yes, that is the next question. But I think we really need to find some common ground on the previous question first (which is basically about the 'ought' / 'is' distinction)

And by the way, my explanation isn't that they simply don't work as hard, you can stop with that strawman. I largely agree with the rest of what you said, I don't deny the lasting effects of racism.

 You accuse me of doing a "strawman". Translation: I accurately responded to what you actually wrote.

You mentioned something in a previous post about "virtue signaling". Seems to me this whole thing got started because somebody on this thread did "conservative virtue signaling" i.e. if people just worked as hard as me and payed taxes all would be well. At it seems to me you responded to this notion quite approvingly, with regard to Italian Americans or other European immigrant Americans who faced some discrimination, like the Irish. The fatal flaw in that poster's argument is his assumption that all groups have had similar experiences.

It would seems to me that after it got explained to you the problematic nature of Puke Gingrich's comment about poor people learning the value of "hard work" you'd be a bit cautious about this sort thing. Evidently, it didn't register one iota.

As far as finding "common ground" I doubt we are going to find any, as I do not believe there is any persuasive evidence that "lack of hard work" explains much.

Also, if want to know if someone is a Trumpist, their response to the question of "minorities would by okay if they just worked harder" pretty much tells me all I need to know.

The problem with conservatives is they are always whining about how everyone is so mean to them. But then they go off and make disparaging and unthinking comments about people's intelligence or their work ethic or whatever and then wonder why people get so flamingly pissed with them.

12 hours ago, SweetPea said:

Asians in the US have on average higher IQ than whites, by several points. This has been consistently confirmed by many studies over many years, and I haven't seen anybody dispute it.

This little fact is beloved by the alt right, particularly those who want to buy into Charles Murray type arguments, that allegedly IQ differences explain differences in wealth. And of course mainstream conservative love it too because they use it to promote the "model minority" trope, in order to bash other minority groups.

The point here is "what of it"? And what conclusions do we draw? 

With regard to Charles Murray type arguments, that argument pretty much got destroyed by Raj Chetty's recent paper on race. One of the conclusions of that paper was that African American women do about as well as white women inter-generational mobility, controlling of course for parental income.

Of course "controlling for parental income" is a huge qualification because most African American women typically come from homes where parental income is lower, in large part because African American wealth, to include human capital development has been harmed by discriminatory policies like redlining.

Edited by OldGimletEye

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I'm Asian, which I suppose makes me genetically intelligent enough to see that Sweatpee is trafficking in racial essentialist bullshit and is not clever enough to conceal the dim, racist impulses behind their posts.

Fuck off with your model minority ratfuckery.

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On 11/7/2018 at 1:10 AM, Galactus said:

The issues with IQ as a measurement are long and complicated. IE: It's not an actual objective measure of anything. 

I agree, we shouldn't draw too deep conclusions based on an IQ score, but it is somewhat indicative of general intelligence.

On 11/7/2018 at 11:48 AM, baxus said:

You can state something but just saying that one group of people is better at something than the other group and leaving it at that is just too simplistic to be taken seriously.

All of the details you mention are irrelevant when it comes to the question: is group A better at said thing than group B? It's a yes or no question, and you can answer it without exploring the reasons why. If you take a healthy man and a man with Alzheimers, the one with the Alzheimers is going to do worse on memory tests. The fact that he does worse because he has Alzheimers, doesn't negate the truth that he does worse. Is it immoral to say that? I don't think so, it's a simple observation. But it seems that some people would disagree with that, the types of people who like to be offended, who might proclaim that I must hate people with Alzheimers for making that observation. The types of people who would be offended that I'm racist against whites if I say Kenyans are better sprinters than whites, or that Asians are better at math than whites and...  oh wait, they wouldn't. They're hypocrites, they don't have standards, they're only offended when you make statements about certain groups of people.

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18 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

I agree, we shouldn't draw too deep conclusions based on an IQ score, but it is somewhat indicative of general intelligence.

All of the details you mention are irrelevant when it comes to the question: is group A better at said thing than group B? It's a yes or no question, and you can answer it without exploring the reasons why. If you take a healthy man and a man with Alzheimers, the one with the Alzheimers is going to do worse on memory tests. The fact that he does worse because he has Alzheimers, doesn't negate the truth that he does worse. Is it immoral to say that? I don't think so, it's a simple observation. But it seems that some people would disagree with that, the types of people who like to be offended, who might proclaim that I must hate people with Alzheimers for making that observation. The types of people who would be offended that I'm racist against whites if I say Kenyans are better sprinters than whites, or that Asians are better at math than whites and...  oh wait, they wouldn't. They're hypocrites, they don't have standards, they're only offended when you make statements about certain groups of people.

It's not hypocrisy - it's recognizing history and context and that once you start going down that road, especially when you start ignoring what you call "the reasons why", tons of people end up dead or oppressed.

Which back to the topic, if you don't think cultural appropriation is a thing (most of the people in this thread) that's just your privilege showing. 

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21 minutes ago, SweetPea said:

I agree, we shouldn't draw too deep conclusions based on an IQ score, but it is somewhat indicative of general intelligence.

All of the details you mention are irrelevant when it comes to the question: is group A better at said thing than group B? It's a yes or no question, and you can answer it without exploring the reasons why. If you take a healthy man and a man with Alzheimers, the one with the Alzheimers is going to do worse on memory tests. The fact that he does worse because he has Alzheimers, doesn't negate the truth that he does worse. Is it immoral to say that? I don't think so, it's a simple observation. But it seems that some people would disagree with that, the types of people who like to be offended, who might proclaim that I must hate people with Alzheimers for making that observation. The types of people who would be offended that I'm racist against whites if I say Kenyans are better sprinters than whites, or that Asians are better at math than whites and...  oh wait, they wouldn't. They're hypocrites, they don't have standards, they're only offended when you make statements about certain groups of people.

Did you stop for a second to think on what you say, that comparison is soo stupid, like how do you even interact with people in real life? Shit is crazy yo. 

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Judging within the context of the pea's posts, and by content of the pea's posts, the pea clearly demonstrates low intelligence.  He also shows he's been poorly educated.

Edited by Zorral

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5 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Judging within the context of the pea's posts, and by content of the pea's posts, the pea clearly demonstrates low intelligence.  He also shows he's been poorly educated.

Sweatpee hasn't responded to my post. But since my post was backed by the unimpeachable authority of my Asian-ness, they obviously accept the rebuke of their betters.

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On 11/6/2018 at 7:18 AM, Let's Get Kraken said:

@SweetPea You around like the kind of person who uses "Jew" as a verb.

I went on a business trip with my boss to Israel. One night we were at a market where you could barter and she said she liked how you could 'Jew them  down'. I was appalled and she realized where she was at and, well, she wasn't embarrassed, just realized it wasn't appropriate given our location and hoped no one had heard her. I had to call her on the same exact word one more time while we were there. At no time did she think it was wrong, just inappropriate in our current setting.

Sorry for the tangent, but that situation has really stuck with me over the years and opened my eyes to how deep and hidden some of the racism is buried in people and they don't even realize it. It was just an expression to her and she didn't associate it with anything other than a turn of phrase.

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1 hour ago, DanteGabriel said:

Sweatpee hasn't responded to my post. But since my post was backed by the unimpeachable authority of my Asian-ness, they obviously accept the rebuke of their betters.

Hey now, don’t forget us Jews. We always rank at the top with you guys too. I mean, how else did we get to the point where we run the world? Being the chosen people wasn’t going to do it by itself!   

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1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I went on a business trip with my boss to Israel. One night we were at a market where you could barter and she said she liked how you could 'Jew them  down'. I was appalled and she realized where she was at and, well, she wasn't embarrassed, just realized it wasn't appropriate given our location and hoped no one had heard her. I had to call her on the same exact word one more time while we were there. At no time did she think it was wrong, just inappropriate in our current setting.

Sorry for the tangent, but that situation has really stuck with me over the years and opened my eyes to how deep and hidden some of the racism is buried in people and they don't even realize it. It was just an expression to her and she didn't associate it with anything other than a turn of phrase.

That was supposed to be "sound" not "around." I hate spotting typos days after something has been posted...

Anyway, I used to make a lot of jokes like that when I was in my late teens/early twenties. Then I read some books about the Holocaust and a history of American lynchings and it knocked that type of humor right the fuck out of me.

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2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

I went on a business trip with my boss to Israel. One night we were at a market where you could barter and she said she liked how you could 'Jew them  down'. I was appalled and she realized where she was at and, well, she wasn't embarrassed, just realized it wasn't appropriate given our location and hoped no one had heard her. I had to call her on the same exact word one more time while we were there. At no time did she think it was wrong, just inappropriate in our current setting.

Sorry for the tangent, but that situation has really stuck with me over the years and opened my eyes to how deep and hidden some of the racism is buried in people and they don't even realize it. It was just an expression to her and she didn't associate it with anything other than a turn of phrase.

I think this is a very good point, since it shows how insidious and sneaky racism and cultural appropriation can be. There are a lot of phrases that have similar origins, like "what a gyp" or "I've been gypped." 

I wonder if your boss ever considered that Jewish people live in places other than Israel? 

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This is where I put on my “um actually hat” and point out the term gyp doesn’t actually come from gypsies, it’s actually the other way around, they got the nick name gypsies cause of racist misconceptions about them. Abd don’t get me wrong it’s awful and internalizrd racism is awful, but that’s one of those things where my OCD kicks in and I have to correct people.

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The popular image we have of witches is rooted in antisemitism. The pointed hat, the big nose. Ditto a lot of the mythology and hysteria.

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I had always thought the word Gypsy came from the (false) belief that the Roma originated in Egypt. I think the French called them Bohemien for the same reason (thought they came from Bohemia).

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1 hour ago, Gertrude said:

I had always thought the word Gypsy came from the (false) belief that the Roma originated in Egypt. I think the French called them Bohemien for the same reason (thought they came from Bohemia).

Well now I’m going to have to do fine research this weekend’

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