most tragic character

[Morte]

11 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Idk... The greek tragedies offered catharsis through renewal and restoration of the character and Theon has been taken too far down. I think we will get something other than catharsis for him. He will never grow his teeth or fingers back, nor will he ever have children. Even if he'd die in valour serving the Nights Watch, the character Theon will still be a totally broken man who think his name is Reek.

Oh, there is no catharsis for Jason (one of the biggest jerks) for what he did; and while Oedipus has a catharsis, one can argue that it was a very costly one, and that he doesn't become happy, nor does his character get a restoration as we would understand it.

I would imaging something between this two for Theon, just as you said: he may die in valour, but he will remain broken (just as Oedipus).

Although I could see GRRM pulling "a Jason" here and getting Theon killed without any meaning or light at the end of the tunnel - but I don't hope so.

[Sigella]

1 minute ago, Morte said:

Oh, there is no catharsis for Jason (one of the biggest jerks) for what he did; and while Oedipus has a catharsis, one can argue that it was a very costly one, and that he doesn't become happy, nor does his character get a restoration as we would understand it.

I would imaging something between this two for Theon, just as you said: he may die in valour, but he will remain broken (just as Oedipus).

Although I could see GRRM pulling "a Jason" here and getting Theon killed without any meaning or light at the end of the tunnel - but I don't hope so.

Jason was ex ate/cooked their children right? And Oidipus ended up fulfilling his destiny whilst trying to avoid it. They don't touch Theon because they are garden parties compared to the snuff-film material we witness on Theon. His story is like one of those things in life that is just so gruesome you wouldn't wish them to ever even be thought of. I recently accidentally saw a decapitation video online and the feeling I had after watching that clip is similar to what it feels like to think about Theon, even though he is not real.

[SerBronnsMullet]

POV- Cat

Non-POV in present- Jeyne Poole

Non-POV in past- Ashara Dayne

[Morte]

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Jason was ex ate/cooked their children right?

Jason wanted to rise in status by abandoning his wife Meade for the young daughter of the king of Corinth. Of course he did want to keep their children with him (who would become bastards by the divorce), while forcing Meade out of town. Because of his treason and what this would mean for the life of her boys, Meade kills the bride with a poisoned gown and then kills her children.

Jason comes home to see their dead bodies, Meade leaving on a wagon her grandfather Helios has send her, riding over the sky as Jason watches and breaks down.

8 hours ago, Sigella said:

Oidipus...

Oedipus killed his father, married his mother, had children with her. Upon realising what they had done Iokaste hangs herself and Oedipus blinds himself and walks away, becoming a seer.

So yes, no gross torture for them both, but I doubt it was pleasant.

[Sigella]

5 hours ago, Morte said:

Jason wanted to rise in status by abandoning his wife Meade for the young daughter of the king of Corinth. Of course he did want to keep their children with him (who would become bastards by the divorce), while forcing Meade out of town. Because of his treason and what this would mean for the life of her boys, Meade kills the bride with a poisoned gown and then kills her children.

Jason comes home to see their dead bodies, Meade leaving on a wagon her grandfather Helios has send her, riding over the sky as Jason watches and breaks down.

Oedipus killed his father, married his mother, had children with her. Upon realising what they had done Iokaste hangs herself and Oedipus blinds himself and walks away, becoming a seer.

So yes, no gross torture for them both, but I doubt it was pleasant.

Granted, there are some thematic similarities between Theon and Oidipus, but its only very weak stuff like Esgred and homecoming from being fostered.

[Morte]

3 hours ago, Sigella said:

Granted, there are some thematic similarities between Theon and Oidipus, but its only very weak stuff like Esgred and homecoming from being fostered.

Sure. But I think because of his treason he has more similarities with Jason, even though I don't think Theon's "cloak-turning" was even near as bad.

What I wanted to say is, that Theon is by far the most tragic, because he causes his downfall himself, because the active working toward once own downfall is what tragedy is about. No matter the cause (it can even be a just one) or if one is struggling to prevent something, but is unintentionally causing it. Theon wants to rise, but all his doing only leads to his ultimate downfall, his catharsis is his suffering by Ramsay Snow and the rescue of "Arya". Whether he gets any salvation out of this, or even just a little sympathy from anyone because of it, is speculation at this moment. But even if he can find a place where he belongs, his wounds - inner and outer - will never fully heal. That's tragedy.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, Morte said:

Sure. But I think because of his treason he has more similarities with Jason, even though I don't think Theon's "cloak-turning" was even near as bad.

What I wanted to say is, that Theon is by far the most tragic, because he causes his downfall himself, because the active working toward once own downfall is what tragedy is about. No matter the cause (it can even be a just one) or if one is struggling to prevent something, but is unintentionally causing it. Theon wants to rise, but all his doing only leads to his ultimate downfall, his catharsis is his suffering by Ramsay Snow and the rescue of "Arya". Whether he gets any salvation out of this, or even just a little sympathy from anyone because of it, is speculation at this moment. But even if he can find a place where he belongs, his wounds - inner and outer - will never fully heal. That's tragedy.

You said he was like a classic greek tragedy which I oppose.

 

Anyway, one could argue that those things apply to other characters as well: 

Jon trying to save the NW and Westeros from the Others but ending up murdered (as far as we know) is a way cleaner application imho

Also Jaime loosing his hand and being tormented only to rise from the ashes and save Brienne is a way better example of catharsis, although I hope we can both agree Theon fleeing Winterfell with Jayne Poole isnt much so far as catharsis goes. Sample spoiler :

Spoiler

Stannis keeps Theon chained hanging from a wall.

 

 

[Morte]

6 minutes ago, Sigella said:

You said he was like a classic greek tragedy which I oppose.

But he is in the sense that he is causing his own downfall by his deeds and has to bear the consequences and the knowledge.

10 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Anyway, one could argue that those things apply to other characters as well: 

Yes, but not to that degree of suffering (the question was about the most tragic character )

Yes, both Jon and Jaime can be seen as such (and sure a lot of other characters as well), albeit Jon has some traits that contradict the (good) "classical greek tragedy" (but not the classical greek hero-modus).

14 minutes ago, Sigella said:

I hope we can both agree Theon fleeing Winterfell with Jayne Poole isnt much so far as catharsis goes.

Yes we can. It's not over yet. That's why I said it is quite possible that Theon will get no redemption at all. GRRM is not finished with him and may evn kill him off "pointlessly" - just to drive the message home that suffering and trying/beginning to change for the better is no guaranty for catharsis.

[BlackLightning]

Theon is classic Greek tragedy, yes. We'll see how his story ends though: I think it will be closer to Oedipus than Jason or Antigone.

Catelyn is a quintessentially tragic character. In fact, Catelyn is so tragic yet noble at the same time, I can't help but wonder why do so many people have such a big issue with her. Are they sexist/misogynist? Do they have unresolved issues with their own mothers? Are they anti-Stark? Or are they so far up the asses of Tyrion and Jon Snow that they can't think straight. Or does a middle-aged woman whose defining heroic trait (e.g. motherhood) not make for a dynamic character.

Cersei would be a tragic figure if she wasn't such a evil, incorrigible _____.

Tyrion? It's hard for me to have much pity for Tyrion as that's all he seems to have for himself. Pity.

It's so crazy how entitled Tyrion is because you think his physical shortcomings would have taught him a little about humility, mercy and self-effacement. But I digress. He has had a really, really good life that he - more or less - failed to take full advantage of. And now he is slowly becoming the monster everyone has always thought he was. Gemma Lannister was right: he is just like Tywin. And just like his father, Tyrion is going to antagonize the wrong one and that person (male or female) is going to destroy him.

Tyrion reminds me a lot of Shylock from The Merchant of Venice.

[Destiny Arrives]

Elia Martell not even a POV character or one who was alive in the main story, but dang such tragedy. 

[JS97]

One of the most tragic characters in the story to me is little Rickon Stark. He is so neglected by his family. I hope he has a happy ending although I fear for him.

[Rose of Red Lake]

Daenerys, who is Dido.

Both:

- Have a cruel brother. Viserys/Pygmalion

- Flee after their husband's death with a small band of followers, becoming exiles who rule

- Are proud, exceptional, resourceful, and capable female rulers 

- Receive prophecies about an ominous future. Dido's is that a man of Trojan descent is destined to destroy her city, Carthage. Three treasons, Rhaegar/Lyanna, blue flowers, bride of fire could be similar for Dany.

In the future both could:

- Engage in self-destructive behavior, becoming so infatuated with a hero who seeks her help (Aeneas/Jon) that her rulership suffers

- Believe Aeneas/Jon betrayed her because he abandons her for another home (Winterfell/Rome)

- Decide to burn everything that reminds her of Aeneas/Jon in one big funeral pyre, and her ideals go up in smoke.

[Morte]

On 1/30/2019 at 12:37 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Theon is classic Greek tragedy, yes. We'll see how his story ends though: I think it will be closer to Oedipus than Jason or Antigone.

Agree. Or better: I hope so.

On 1/30/2019 at 12:37 AM, Jabar of House Titan said:

Catelyn is a quintessentially tragic character. In fact, Catelyn is so tragic yet noble at the same time, I can't help but wonder why do so many people have such a big issue with her. Are they sexist/misogynist? Do they have unresolved issues with their own mothers? Are they anti-Stark? Or are they so far up the asses of Tyrion and Jon Snow that they can't think straight. Or does a middle-aged woman whose defining heroic trait (e.g. motherhood) not make for a dynamic character.

Agree again. Cat (not Stoneheart!) is a tragic character, even has something (do not overinterpret, it's just one small parallel) of Cassandra, as she does give good advice to Rob, and is not listened too.

Hell, even her "betrayal" was a right bet, as both Tyrion and Jaime would have followed their agreement. Tragically (and this is true tragic again) fate and time did work against her as Tyrion wasn't longer in charge, the Tyrell's had switched side and in the end Cat dies at the Red Wedding and Sansa is "missing".