Biggest Mistake Made by Robb

[Legitimate_Bastard]

It has to be between, pissing off Walder by taking up with Jeyne Westerling and the resulting Red Wedding.

OR

Sending Theon back to his father.

I am going with sending Theon back to the Iron Islands. The Red Wedding was bad for Robb, but Theon was bad for Winterfell and everyone in it. I think Theons actions have had more of an impact in the long run than the Red Wedding.

Anyone got any others? What do you think?

[lavthelonewolf]

His marriage to jeyne! If not for the red wedding,robb could have taken back winterfell. Before the wedding he mentioned to cat about his plans to turn north. Granted,him sending theon was a colossal blunder,but he still had a chance to win back his castle if only he were alive. 

 

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I'm still going with him marrying Jeyne Westerling. I'm not even pissed about the fact that he broke his oath, I'm pissed that he married a woman would could only bring a few soldiers to his cause. It would've been different if he married someone like Margaery Tyrell, who could've given him the entire Reach. 

I can forgive him somewhat for the whole Theon fiasco, because I can see from his point of view how it made sense, Theon was his friend for many years and Robb thought he would never betray him, even if he couldn't get Balon on his side. 

[Legitimate_Bastard]

30 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I can forgive him somewhat for the whole Theon fiasco, because I can see from his point of view how it made sense, Theon was his friend for many years and Robb thought he would never betray him, even if he couldn't get Balon on his side. 

On the Theon thing - do you think if someone like Blackfish had been sent alongside that Theon still would have turned?

[John Suburbs]

2 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

It has to be between, pissing off Walder by taking up with Jeyne Westerling and the resulting Red Wedding.

OR

Sending Theon back to his father.

I am going with sending Theon back to the Iron Islands. The Red Wedding was bad for Robb, but Theon was bad for Winterfell and everyone in it. I think Theons actions have had more of an impact in the long run than the Red Wedding.

Anyone got any others? What do you think?

I'd vote for the Theon debacle, since I don't believe his break with Walder was Robb's decision. He was drugged. Sybell Spice is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog, who was known in Lannisport for telling fortunes and selling "love potions." So if you look at House Spicer, we have a wealthy merchant making an unusual marriage with a woman of questionable standing, and then that marriage was followed up with Gawen Westerling's marriage to Sybell, which caused Kevan to observe "He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense."

Now we have yet a third wedding in which the groom places his honor above his sense, all for a women that no one considers overly desirable -- certainly not someone to sacrifice a kingdom for. And as time goes by, we can see Robb becoming more distant and frustrated with Jeyne, almost as if his initial ardor has worn off already. Coincidence? I think not.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I'd vote for the Theon debacle, since I don't believe his break with Walder was Robb's decision. He was drugged. Sybell Spice is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog, who was known in Lannisport for telling fortunes and selling "love potions." So if you look at House Spicer, we have a wealthy merchant making an unusual marriage with a woman of questionable standing, and then that marriage was followed up with Gawen Westerling's marriage to Sybell, which caused Kevan to observe "He should never have wed her. The Westerlings always did have more honor than sense."

Now we have yet a third wedding in which the groom places his honor above his sense, all for a women that no one considers overly desirable -- certainly not someone to sacrifice a kingdom for. And as time goes by, we can see Robb becoming more distant and frustrated with Jeyne, almost as if his initial ardor has worn off already. Coincidence? I think not.

Wow. I've never ever heard this idea. But yeah sounds pretty damn right to me. Once, whatever. Twice, interesting. Thrice, a pattern emerges.

I love this idea.

[Euron III Greyjoy]

1 hour ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

On the Theon thing - do you think if someone like Blackfish had been sent alongside that Theon still would have turned?

I don't think it would've made much difference, but even if it did work and Theon stayed loyal to Robb, I don't think Balon would've let Theon or Blackfish leave the island, plus he would've used Blackfish as a hostage to get something from Robb. 

[John Suburbs]

11 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Wow. I've never ever heard this idea. But yeah sounds pretty damn right to me. Once, whatever. Twice, interesting. Thrice, a pattern emerges.

I love this idea.

If you think on it, does it seem likely that Lady Sybell and Lord Tywin would put the two of them together and just hope they hit it off? Seems like a rather iffy plan considering what's at stake.

[John Suburbs]

10 minutes ago, King Aegon I Targaryen said:

I don't think it would've made much difference, but even if it did work and Theon stayed loyal to Robb, I don't think Balon would've let Theon or Blackfish leave the island, plus he would've used Blackfish as a hostage to get something from Robb. 

What surprises me about the whole Theon plan is why the northern lords went along with it. None of them should have been under any illusion as to what Balon would do once he got his son back, particularly the Mallisters. And they were the ones who escorted Theon to Seaguard! 

[Angel Eyes]

24 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

What surprises me about the whole Theon plan is why the northern lords went along with it. None of them should have been under any illusion as to what Balon would do once he got his son back, particularly the Mallisters. And they were the ones who escorted Theon to Seaguard! 

Well, maybe they thought that there wouldn’t be much the Ironborn could do. You can’t conquer the North with the manpower of the Iron Islands. I wonder why Balon tried, considering that he doesn’t have the forces to take and hold it. 

[John Suburbs]

5 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said:

Well, maybe they thought that there wouldn’t be much the Ironborn could do. You can’t conquer the North with the manpower of the Iron Islands. I wonder why Balon tried, considering that he doesn’t have the forces to take and hold it. 

They're raiders, rapers, reavers, marauders… Even if they can't conquer the North, although that is exactly what they tried to do seven years ago, they can still bring untold woe and misery to that part of the realm, particularly to Seaguard and the Mallister lands.

[Ser Frasier of House Crane]

It kinda all stems from sending Theon to treat with his father, doesn't it? If he doesn't go, Winterfell isn't sacked, Robb doesn't sleep with Jeyne, the marriage alliance isn't broken, etc., etc.

Marrying Jeyne made matters irrevocably worse for him, but for want of a Theon, the kingdom was lost.

[Legitimate_Bastard]

51 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If you think on it, does it seem likely that Lady Sybell and Lord Tywin would put the two of them together and just hope they hit it off? Seems like a rather iffy plan considering what's at stake.

Yeah no kidding. Everything Tywin did was for a reason.

[Lord Varys]

His greatest mistake was to allow the morons around him to proclaim him king.

After that comes the Theon thing and then the Westerling thing. Losing the Freys really only becomes an issue after he lost the war thanks to being unable to reach an understanding with Stannis and/or Renly - which he could have done if he had worn no crown.

The Red Wedding only happens because Robb was effectively done the moment the Lannisters won on the Blackwater. Roose and Walder just cleaned up the mess, basically. If the Greyjoys had been with Robb, if he had not lost the North and if he had not lost the Freys, he may have been able to yield honorably. But the way things went he was basically caught without his breaches after the Blackwater. Provoking/humiliating close allies in such a weak position is going to trigger a reaction.

As for the Westerling thing:

It is pretty obvious Robb was led into a trap there. The entire thing was a setup with the goal to ensure that Robb's line does not continue. In addition to all the stuff mentioned, the fact that Rolph Spicer was castellan of the Crag and later named Lord of Castamere.

We have the garrison resisting only until Robb has been injured by an arrow, we have the Westerlings/Spicer ensure the boy king is treated inside the Crag by Lady Sybell and her daughter, and we have ample opportunity for the hormones to kick in.

I'm not sure a love potion was necessary, though - although it might have been administered. Robb tells us that his desire for sex grew out of a desire of comfort since he just received the raven about Bran and Rickon. And his decision to marry Jeyne on the spot is very well explained by the fact that he doesn't want to create another Jon Snow or play a role in the dishonor a maiden that gave him comfort in such a crucial moment.

And Jeyne is a pretty girl. She might not be the fairest woman in the world, but she is pretty good-looking. And you don't need much more to entice a 15-year-old.

[divica]

54 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

His greatest mistake was to allow the morons around him to proclaim him king.

After that comes the Theon thing and then the Westerling thing. Losing the Freys really only becomes an issue after he lost the war thanks to being unable to reach an understanding with Stannis and/or Renly - which he could have done if he had worn no crown.

The Red Wedding only happens because Robb was effectively done the moment the Lannisters won on the Blackwater. Roose and Walder just cleaned up the mess, basically. If the Greyjoys had been with Robb, if he had not lost the North and if he had not lost the Freys, he may have been able to yield honorably. But the way things went he was basically caught without his breaches after the Blackwater. Provoking/humiliating close allies in such a weak position is going to trigger a reaction.

As for the Westerling thing:

It is pretty obvious Robb was led into a trap there. The entire thing was a setup with the goal to ensure that Robb's line does not continue. In addition to all the stuff mentioned, the fact that Rolph Spicer was castellan of the Crag and later named Lord of Castamere.

We have the garrison resisting only until Robb has been injured by an arrow, we have the Westerlings/Spicer ensure the boy king is treated inside the Crag by Lady Sybell and her daughter, and we have ample opportunity for the hormones to kick in.

I'm not sure a love potion was necessary, though - although it might have been administered. Robb tells us that his desire for sex grew out of a desire of comfort since he just received the raven about Bran and Rickon. And his decision to marry Jeyne on the spot is very well explained by the fact that he doesn't want to create another Jon Snow or play a role in the dishonor a maiden that gave him comfort in such a crucial moment.

And Jeyne is a pretty girl. She might not be the fairest woman in the world, but she is pretty good-looking. And you don't need much more to entice a 15-year-old.

The king thing isn t that bad. We saw with renly that they could have achieved some agreement. So it only really creates a problem with stannis… And if things really got bad he could always negotiate with stannis that he would take the black while bran becomes warden of the north. His war is with the lannisters, so if stannis won the war it should be a possible outcome.

His biggest mistake was giving his mother any power. Even with things as bad as they were after renly died if she had made an aliance with the tyrells then they would have won the war (stannis takes KL and the tyrells attack tywin from behind and then they all attack KL). Then there was the Jaime release thing that further complicates his situation with his bannermen...

 

Even if sending theon away cost him winterfell (balon would probably always attack the north even if it costs him his son that he really doesn t like) giving power to his mother costs him the war.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, divica said:

The king thing isn t that bad. We saw with renly that they could have achieved some agreement. So it only really creates a problem with stannis… And if things really got bad he could always negotiate with stannis that he would take the black while bran becomes warden of the north. His war is with the lannisters, so if stannis won the war it should be a possible outcome.

It is the worst thing, because it cost essentially all the real options he could have had - sit back and let the others fight it out (now he had to protect 'his kingdom'), make alliances with other pretenders and other houses. Even if Lysa had been willing to help him - recognizing this new king fellow was much more than just fighting a war against an unjust king. Anyone siding with Robb does not just turn against the Lannister-Baratheons but all the Baratheons.

Renly made it clear he is not going to accept independence. And considering Stannis' personality he man may have decided to take away Winterfell and the North from all the Starks, not just Robb, for their treason.

1 minute ago, divica said:

His biggest mistake was giving his mother any power. Even with things as bad as they were after renly died if she had made an aliance with the tyrells then they would have won the war (stannis takes KL and the tyrells attack tywin from behind and then they all attack KL). Then there was the Jaime release thing that further complicates his situation with his bannermen...

So you think Cat could have made an alliance with the Tyrells after Renly was killed while she and Brienne were in his tent? You think Loras would have left either of them alive if they had been there?

Robb had no right or authority to grant his mother any power. She gave it to him. Robb was just a boy when he marched to war. He had no right to do that against his mother who was ruling the North in husband's name until he came back (or Robb came of age). Sending her to Renly was no mistake. But forcing her to speak for some foolish king was. King Renly and Lord Robb could have found common ground immediately. The same would have gone for King Stannis and Lord Robb after Renly's assassination.

1 minute ago, divica said:

Even if sending theon away cost him winterfell (balon would probably always attack the north even if it costs him his son that he really doesn t like) giving power to his mother costs him the war.

Sending Theon cost him Winterfell and made him look like a moron who could neither protect his castle nor his little brothers. Taking Winterfell was Theon's idea, after all. And it was his plan and his doing.

[Darion Storm]

Theon was a pretty big mistake, though one that he can be excused for seeing as all of Theon’s behaviour leading up to that had been loyal.

Marrying Jeyne was just being selfish, he claimed he was trying to protect her honour but he was protecting his own just as much. He put the honour of himself and her above the needs of everyone else in his Kingdom and lots of people paid the price.

[divica]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

It is the worst thing, because it cost essentially all the real options he could have had - sit back and let the others fight it out (now he had to protect 'his kingdom'), make alliances with other pretenders and other houses. Even if Lysa had been willing to help him - recognizing this new king fellow was much more than just fighting a war against an unjust king. Anyone siding with Robb does not just turn against the Lannister-Baratheons but all the Baratheons.

Renly made it clear he is not going to accept independence. And considering Stannis' personality he man may have decided to take away Winterfell and the North from all the Starks, not just Robb, for their treason.

 

You are mistaking things. Robb was invading the south and attacking the lannisters because he wanted to save his father and sisters. Any lord that supported him was supporting his cause and rebelling against the current king. It doesn t say anything about their position regarding the other baratheons because robb doesn t even have a position about the other baratheons. Being against joffrey and supporting the release of the starks doesn t mean they don t support stannis or renly as king. 

And robb cound t sit back because his familly is captive in KL. He started the war basically to save them...

And any person with a brain knows that the north will never accept anyone taking over the starks position. So it is very unlikely that if the starks surrender he will punish them all.

14 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

So you think Cat could have made an alliance with the Tyrells after Renly was killed while she and Brienne were in his tent? You think Loras would have left either of them alive if they had been there?

Robb had no right or authority to grant his mother any power. She gave it to him. Robb was just a boy when he marched to war. He had no right to do that against his mother who was ruling the North in husband's name until he came back (or Robb came of age). Sending her to Renly was no mistake. But forcing her to speak for some foolish king was. King Renly and Lord Robb could have found common ground immediately. The same would have gone for King Stannis and Lord Robb after Renly's assassination.

Sending Theon cost him Winterfell and made him look like a moron who could neither protect his castle nor his little brothers. Taking Winterfell was Theon's idea, after all. And it was his plan and his doing.

Of course she could. Nobody thought she killed renly! She prefered to save brienne's life over forming an aliance!

Or do you think that if she offered the support of the north and riverlands to the tyrells so that they could take the iron throne they would refuse? They have the perfect oportunity to attack tywin and break his army and unwed heirs that can form an aliance with the vale or dorne.

Letting the tyrells slip by was the biggest mistake in the whole war and it was entirely done by cat.

[Angel Eyes]

42 minutes ago, divica said:

The king thing isn t that bad. We saw with renly that they could have achieved some agreement. So it only really creates a problem with stannis… And if things really got bad he could always negotiate with stannis that he would take the black while bran becomes warden of the north. His war is with the lannisters, so if stannis won the war it should be a possible outcome.

His biggest mistake was giving his mother any power. Even with things as bad as they were after renly died if she had made an aliance with the tyrells then they would have won the war (stannis takes KL and the tyrells attack tywin from behind and then they all attack KL). Then there was the Jaime release thing that further complicates his situation with his bannermen...

 

Even if sending theon away cost him winterfell (balon would probably always attack the north even if it costs him his son that he really doesn t like) giving power to his mother costs him the war.

Would Catelyn have been better off in Winterfell? I think not, not with Ramsay Snow running around. I think Robb should have tried harder to get his sisters back. After negotiations went south, he got a bit lazy with trying to get them back. Maybe scour the Riverlands, infiltrate the capital? 

 

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

His greatest mistake was to allow the morons around him to proclaim him king.

This. It pretty much removed any possibility of a negotiated peace with the Iron Throne, limiting his options to victory or death within a nightmarish strategic scenario.