US Politics: Four Days and Counting

[IheartIheartTesla]

So does anyone have any preliminary turnout predictions based on hard data? Might be too preliminary for that stuff.

[Darth Richard II]

Well I'm in western NY, so i was at the polls for not even a full 5 mins and was out.

[Guy Kilmore]

17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What makes you say that? I would assume that a divided government would drive him to take increasing aggressive actions when it comes to Eos. Furthermore, and as I’ve said before, Trump is atypical. He’s an outlier. I would not predict his actions based on the past behaviors of previous presidents and politicians.

Yeah, I think, total armchair psychology here, that looking at how Narcissists handle pressure against them and their power would be more predictive.  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

43 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said:

I can’t imagine a Western democracy where polls close at 6:00 pm. It’s almost like they’re trying to discourage working people from voting.

Election Day for National Elections should be an automatic paid holiday.

[IheartIheartTesla]

Schools are off today in my city, since many of the polling stations are in schools and it is a safety issue. This means even schools in the area that dont serve as polling stations get the day off. So....kids who cant vote get day off, adults who do vote have to work, and perhaps even find daycare/babysitting arrangements while they are out adulting and voting.

[Frog Eater]

4 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Election Day for National Elections should be an automatic paid holiday.

I completely agree. Veterans day is next week, they could move Veterans day to coincide with Election day and make it a federal holiday. Encouraging non federal employers to close on election day is a whole other issue. 

[Guy Kilmore]

2 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

I completely agree. Veterans day is next week, they could move Veterans day to coincide with Election day and make it a federal holiday. Encouraging non federal employers to close on election day is a whole other issue. 

I agree 100%, Veterans fought for this right, what better way to celebrate it than by executing it.

[lokisnow]

2 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

I completely agree. Veterans day is next week, they could move Veterans day to coincide with Election day and make it a federal holiday. Encouraging non federal employers to close on election day is a whole other issue. 

In the legislation making voting day a national holiday, simply state that all nonexempt employees will be paid triple time if they work that holiday and all exempt employees will be paid a full weeks salary if they work that holiday. Problem solved! 

(All on duty military personnel would of course be paid triple on voting day)

[DMC]

25 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

What makes you say that? I would assume that a divided government would drive him to take increasing aggressive actions when it comes to Eos. Furthermore, and as I’ve said before, Trump is atypical. He’s an outlier. I would not predict his actions based on the past behaviors of previous presidents and politicians.

What makes me say that is tons of research on executive orders, including my own efforts.  You're right Trump is an outlier.  But the personality of the president does not matter.  It's an institutional constraint.  The majority party in Congress is given more deference by the courts than the minority party, and will consider recommendations thusly.  Whatever is sitting in the Oval really doesn't matter.  There's a broad canvas of personalities since Truman, but each and every one of them lowered their EO tendencies - as a policymaking tool - during divided government. 

[Mexal]

18 minutes ago, Frog Eater said:

I completely agree. Veterans day is next week, they could move Veterans day to coincide with Election day and make it a federal holiday. Encouraging non federal employers to close on election day is a whole other issue. 

That would encourage more voters and that is not what everyone wants.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

4 hours ago, Ormond said:

I voted on the way to work this morning. I am a bit worried because there was NOT a long line -- there were only two other people in line with me. However, I vote at an elementary school and I got there just before the school day started when there were hordes of kids walking in the door, so perhaps other voters knew not to show up at that particular moment.  

I got a circular in the mail from the local Democratic party giving me the name of every Democrat running for every office in Douglas County -- which there were many of, since we vote on entirely too many offices in Nebraska, including County Engineer. I don't remember ever getting such a circular in the mail before, so maybe that's a sign the Dems are better organized here than in the past.

I was filling out my ballot when the school day started. I knew I lived in the heavily Hispanic area of Omaha. When the principal came over the intercom, after she reminded the kids that there would be a lot of adults coming in to the school to vote today, she said "Now we will have the Pledge of Allegiance", and it was a little girl saying the pledge in Spanish. After that the principal herself said it in English.  I thought that was great though I know it would have driven my Trump supporting relatives up the wall.  

Your schools are open on elections day?  That just seems so, unsafe. Doors are open and anyone, can just walk in at any time. We also use schools as voting places, so all schools are closed state wide, even if that particular school isn't being used.

 

[Ormond]

Just now, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

Your schools are open on elections day?  That just seems so, unsafe. Doors are open and anyone, can just walk in at any time. We also use schools as voting places, so all schools are closed state wide, even if that particular school isn't being used.

 

Yup, it hadn't dawned on me until reading your post and IheartTesla's that this would seem unusual. Perhaps the difference is that in Omaha most of the polling places actually are NOT in schools but in venues like apartment complex community centers, churches, etc. The Student Center at my university is a polling place. I don't know what % of polling places in Nebraska are in public schools but I think it's probably definitely less than half. 

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

1 minute ago, Ormond said:

Yup, it hadn't dawned on me until reading your post and IheartTesla's that this would seem unusual. Perhaps the difference is that in Omaha most of the polling places actually are NOT in schools but in venues like apartment complex community centers, churches, etc. The Student Center at my university is a polling place. I don't know what % of polling places in Nebraska are in public schools but I think it's probably definitely less than half. 

Interesting.  We do use a few other places like community centers for the early voting, but there aren't very many of them.

Still, the idea of my kids' school being totally open to strangers would have freaked me out as a parent. (schools here are locked during school hours(only from the outside). You have to ring the doorbell, show ID into the camera and say why you are there.

[Rippounet]

17 hours ago, Altherion said:

The official US ideology has indeed never been about hatred, but the practical actions that enabled, say Manifest Destiny, fall only slightly short of genocide. The leading families of Boston, Philadelphia, etc. did quite well for themselves over the centuries. The Native Americans and African Americans... not so much.

I wouldn't say "never" but yes, my earlier point was that it has been quite rare for the US government/regime to de-humanize entire groups of people or entire populations.
I should have said "in modern times" I guess. Because while the Indian wars may provide an interesting counter-example, that era was not exactly great for individual rights to begin with. In fact, one should bear in mind that the Bill of Rights only became what it is after the doctrine of incorporation around the beginning of the 20th century. So it's difficult to ascertain whether de-humanizing Indians could have any significant effect on US citizens... I'm not a specialist of that time period (to say the least), but I would assume that Indians were a great scapegoat to manipulate vast numbers of Americans, like all later "enemies" (Chinese/Irish immigrants, slaves, former slaves, black activists, communists, anarchists, Soviets, terrorists... ).

As for the fact that some "leading families" did quite well, I don't see your point. There is always an elite minority doing well whatever the regime. Yet, even such a minority can have some of its rights constrained.

17 hours ago, Altherion said:

It's always difficult to imagine how society can evolve too far from what it currently is, but this has happened throughout history. You can read historical arguments about why a given society (say, one with an absolute monarchy) is close to the ideal form of government and they'd be fairly convincing... if one didn't know what happens next.

Sure. On some level one has to decide whether they want to have faith that humanity will not go too far backwards, that we have the ability to learn from at least our biggest mistakes, and not self-destruct.
And it's easy to think that there is some naive optimism in there. But the reverse (cynicism) doesn't exactly help either. Society will of course eventually evolve in ways we can't imagine, but at this point in time some form of human rights (even twisted) is still a pre-requisite for a functioning civilization. Humans are still social animals that can't survive without collective structures.

17 hours ago, Altherion said:

For example, it makes it easier to quantify who is a worthy citizen and who is not. It used to be quite difficult to put together all sorts of court records, purchasing history, known associates, etc. etc., but we're on the verge of being able to do so for nearly everyone. Once this is done, what is the moral argument for people who are obviously contributing a lot to society to have the same rights as those who are obviously detrimental? In fact, China is already experimenting with this. At the moment, the effects are limited in both space (it's only in a few regions) and in scope (the carrots are along the lines of lower utility bills and the sticks are things like transportation restrictions), but there's no reason the idea cannot be extended.

I'll go out on a limb here and just say it: this doesn't revolutionize human rights as much as you seem to think it does. As long as no "quantification" is done at birth, such a system does not clash with universal human morality. What it clashes with is the US-centered vision of individual rights and society, which I personally do not share 100% to begin with.
In fact, one can easily imagine a way to refine the Chinese system that would be considerably fairer and more efficient than any human society we have seen up to now.
I'll even go one step further and posit that the Chinese system appears terrifying because it makes society's judgment of individuals constant and concrete. It forces the individual to think about their contribution to the collective and demeans those who don't. Because most of us (here on this forum) live in nations that respect individualism, we are used to thinking about ourselves (and our family) first and foremost most of the time. But I've personally always assumed that humanity may end up despising individualism, a bit like the Japanese do.
BTW, this was relatively clearly the case in Star Trek, as the iconic Spock phrase "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" shows - among many others.

17 hours ago, Altherion said:

A more far-fetched (but still fairly realistic) future is one in which we use either genetic engineering or cybernetics to create human beings who are clearly better than the common stock. Both fields are currently in their infancy as far as human modification is concerned, but there's no obvious reason why we won't be able to create literal Übermenschen eventually and it won't make much sense for them to have the same rights as creatures which are obviously inferior.

One can only hope that this ubermenschification you allude to will eventually be available to all humans. Which in turn, would possibly erase the greatest "inequalities" at birth.

All roads may lead to Star Trek in the end, just as they can all lead to a nightmarish dystopia. On some level it comes down to how much faith one has in humanity, which in turn quite often reflects how much faith one has in their own. Which is why I sometimes lack patience with cynicism, as some cynical predictions can be self-fulfilling prophecies, i.e. humanity will only be able to reach enlightenment if at least a majority of us see such enlightenment as a worthy goal. So yeah, things can go bad, especialy in our lifetime. In the long-run however, I think humanity will evolve positively, not because it is fundamentally good or anything, but quite simply because collective cooperation is naturally most efficient for our species.

And if you think about it, while we may disagree on many things, the very fact that we have the means and desire to have such an exchange is in itself extremely encouraging for the far future.

 

[lokisnow]

33 minutes ago, Ormond said:

Yup, it hadn't dawned on me until reading your post and IheartTesla's that this would seem unusual. Perhaps the difference is that in Omaha most of the polling places actually are NOT in schools but in venues like apartment complex community centers, churches, etc. The Student Center at my university is a polling place. I don't know what % of polling places in Nebraska are in public schools but I think it's probably definitely less than half. 

And that’s Nebraska, there are so many well armed potential white male terrorists walking around, and you let them into schools!

 

***

snark aside my Missouri elementary school was a polling place, and it was stagedin the combination cafeteria/gym.  That meant voting day was a bag lunch day (for the kids that didn’t bring lunch the school provided a bag lunch) and watch a Disney movie during “lunchtime” for us. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

1 hour ago, Fragile Bird said:

I can’t imagine a Western democracy where polls close at 6:00 pm. It’s almost like they’re trying to discourage working people from voting.

*cough* Germany *cough*

Although, there the voting takes place on Sunday, not Tuesday for some weird historical reason.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Guy Kilmore said:

Yeah, I think, total armchair psychology here, that looking at how Narcissists handle pressure against them and their power would be more predictive.  

I would take it a step further. I don’t think Trump is your standard narcissist. I think he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I know you there are subtle difference between the two, and Trump basically checks off most of the features of the latter:

Quote

Symptoms

Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and the severity of symptoms vary. People with the disorder can:

• Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
• Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
• Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
• Exaggerate achievements and talents
• Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
• Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
• Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
• Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
• Take advantage of others to get what they want
• Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Be envious of others and believe others envy them
• Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
• Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office

At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they perceive as criticism, and they can:

• Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special treatment
• Have significant interpersonal problems and easily feel slighted
• React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior
• Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior
• Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change
• Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection
• Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

One important thing to factor in is how people with NPD react to negative stimuli. An everyday narcissist will not be affected by negative criticism. It can cut a person deeply who suffers from NPD, and a major politic rebuke of Trump could lead to him taking drastic and dangerous actions.  

[Jace, Extat]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I would take it a step further. I don’t think Trump is your standard narcissist. I think he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder. I know you there are subtle difference between the two, and Trump basically checks off most of the features of the latter:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662

One important thing to factor in is how people with NPD react to negative stimuli. An everyday narcissist will not be affected by negative criticism. It can cut a person deeply who suffers from NPD, and a major politic rebuke of Trump could lead to him taking drastic and dangerous actions.  

Get back to the desk, Suzi. Let the professionals do the diagonsary.

This motherfucker crazay.

[Fez]

50 minutes ago, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

Interesting.  We do use a few other places like community centers for the early voting, but there aren't very many of them.

Still, the idea of my kids' school being totally open to strangers would have freaked me out as a parent. (schools here are locked during school hours(only from the outside). You have to ring the doorbell, show ID into the camera and say why you are there.

Back in the early '90s, when I was an elementary student in upstate New York, my school was a polling place and we always had school on election day. The location itself was a conference room at one entrance to the building, right across the hallway from the principle's office/administration center with a receptionist desk in between them out in the hallway/entrance itself.

I assume they felt that was sufficient to keep an eye on things from the school's point of view. I've no idea if its still like that though.

[Impmk2]

15 minutes ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

*cough* Germany *cough*

Although, there the voting takes place on Sunday, not Tuesday for some weird historical reason.

Australia too. Though here election day is always on a Saturday.

Holding an election during the week, when most the largest proportion of the working population has to work seems a bigger issue than closing the polling stations at 6pm.