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R+L=J&M [Part IV] - Is this GRRM's secret message in ADWD in regards to missing out on J&M? Does he call George Lucas an 'ape'?

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I hope you guys read Part I, II & III so this won't confuse you.
Simplifying the other threads, a part of the Trident symbolically represents the R+L=J&M theory AND White Harbor symbolically represent J&M via Rome = Romulus & Remus

Crazy map guy again. I was the one that suggested GRRM wrote R+L=J&M for AGOT, ACOK & ASOS, and then stopped writing it for AFFC & ADWD because George Lucas beat him to writing a "twins separated at birth" origins story first in May 2005. GRRM & Lucas' twin stories would have been almost identical to the point where the Star Wars fandom of 2005 would declare plagiarism against GRRM. I theorized that this was the real reason for the Meereenese Knot of 2005/2011: GRRM stops writing for R+L=J&M, and took all that time to re-write ADWD.

I think I found a message GRRM written to himself about it in the Davos II ADWD chapter. I think GRRM is just venting out. And I think he called George Lucas an 'ape', but perhaps I misinterpreted it.


But before we begin, let us establish this:

Quote

"Inside was a cobbled square with a fountain at its center. A stone merman rose from its waters, twenty feet tall from tail to crown. His curly beard was green and white with lichen, and one of the prongs of his trident had broken off before Davos had been born, yet somehow he still managed to impress. Old Fishfoot was what the locals called him. The square was named for some dead lord, but no one ever called it anything but Fishfoot Yard." (Davos II ADWD) 

Old Fishfoot is the Fontana del Tritone in Rome.

The Trident river is the starting point of my Ruby Map Theory, where one of the prongs represent R+L=J&M. 
How convenient that Fishfoot's trident has a prong broken in post-Meereenese Knot 2011 ADWD.
Does "Broken off before [birth]" suggest that R+L=J&M twins was thought of...but never officially written? Never came to life?
"Yet somehow he still managed to impress" ... Is GRRM bragging about himself? lol

 

 

Anyways this is the real message, let's pretend GRRM is talking through Davos:

Quote

[...later on in the chapter]

Laughter swept the cellar. Davos did not join in. He knew what had befallen the Sloe-Eyed Maid. The gods were cruel to let a man sail across half the world, then send him chasing a false light when he was almost home. That captain was a bolder man than me, he thought, as he made his way to the door. One voyage to the east, and a man could live as rich as a lord until the end of his days. When he'd been younger, Davos had dreamed of making such voyages himself, but the years went dancing by like moths around a flame, and somehow the time had never been quite right. One day, he told himself. One day when the war is done and King Stannis sits the Iron Throne and has no more need of onion knights. I'll take Devan with me. Steff and Stanny too if they're old enough. We'll see these dragons and all the wonders of the world.


Outside the wind was gusting, making the flames shiver in the oil lamps that lit the yard. It had grown colder since the sun went down, but Davos remembered Eastwatch, and how the wind would come screaming off the Wall at night, knifing through even the warmest cloak to freeze a man's blood right in his veins. White Harbor was a warm bath by comparison.


There were other places he might get his ears filled: an inn famous for its lamprey pies, the alehouse where the wool factors and the customs men did their drinking, a mummer's hall where bawdy entertainments could be had for a few pennies. But Davos felt that he had heard enough. I've come too late. Old instinct made him reach for his chest, where once he'd kept his fingerbones in a little sack on a leather thong. There was nothing there. He had lost his luck in the fires of the Blackwater, when he'd lost his ship and sons. 
 
What must I do now? He pulled his mantle tighter. Do I climb the hill and present myself at the gates of the New Castle, to make a futile plea? Return to Sisterton? Make my way back to Marya and my boys? Buy a horse and ride the kingsroad, to tell Stannis that he has no friends in White Harbor, and no hope?


Queen Selyse had feasted Salla and his captains, the night before the fleet had set sail. Cotter Pyke had joined them, and four other high officers of the Night's Watch. Princess Shireen had been allowed to attend as well. As the salmon was being served, Ser Axell Florent had entertained the table with the tale of a Targaryen princeling who kept an ape as a pet. This prince liked to dress the creature in his dead son's clothes and pretend he was a child, Ser Axell claimed, and from time to time he would propose marriages for him. The lords so honored always declined politely, but of course they did decline. "Even dressed in silk and velvet, an ape remains an ape," Ser Axell said. "A wiser prince would have known that you cannot send an ape to do a man's work." The queen's men laughed, and several grinned at Davos. I am no ape, he'd thought. I am as much a lord as you, and a better man. But the memory still stung.


The Seal Gate had been closed for the night. Davos would not be able to return to the Merry Midwife till dawn. He was here for the night. He GAZED up at Old Fishfoot with his broken trident. I have come through rain and wrack and storm. I will not go back without doing what I came for, no matter how hopeless it may seem. He might have lost his fingers and his luck, but he was no ape in velvet. He was a King's Hand.


Castle Stair was a street with steps, a broad white stone way that led up from the Wolf's Den by the water to the New Castle on its hill. Marble mermaids lit the way as Davos climbed, bowls of burning whale oil cradled in their arms. When he reached the top, he turned to look behind him. From here he could see down into the harbors. BOTH OF THEM. Behind the jetty wall, the inner harbor was crowded with war galleys. Davos counted twenty-three. Lord Wyman was a fat man, but not an idle one, it seemed. 

(Davos II ADWD)

 

 

"The gods were cruel to let a man sail across half the world, then send him chasing a false light when he was almost home."

  • Ouch!

"Outside the wind was gusting, making the flames shiver in the oil lamps that lit the yard. It had grown colder since the sun went down"

  • Remember Meera's intro from (Bran III ACOK)? "At the foot of the hall, the doors open and a cold gust of wind made the torches brighter for an instant"? ...the flames are shivering here in ADWD

"But Davos remembered Eastwatch, and how the wind would come screaming off the Wall at night, knifing through even the warmest cloak to freeze a man's blood right in his veins"

  •  Jon's fate in ADWD. Was Jon not suppose die in the original R+L=J&M before the Meereenese Knot?

"I've come too late [...] There was nothing there. He had lost his luck..."

  • Lucas beating GRRM to the twins story first was by pure luck and coincidence. But GRRM had to yield, since Lucas did it first and Lucas was the bigger name in 2005.

 "What must I do now? He pulled his mantle tighter. Do I climb the hill and present myself at the gates of the New Castle, to make a futile plea?"

  • "Climbing the hill" symbolizes writing J&M. Its represents the hills of Romulus/Remus in Rome. If GRRM does write J&M, does he have to make a futile plea if he was accused of plagiarizing Lucas?

"...no friends in White Harbor, and no hope?"

  • No hope for Jon & Meera? No hope for the symbolism between White Harbor & Rome?

"...several grinned at GRRM. I am no ape, he'd thought. I am as much a lord as you, and a better man"

  • GRRM message to Lucas?

"But the memory stung."

  • It stings us too if we knew what GRRM had to go through. We are all waiting for the next book as the results.

Whole Paragraph:

  • The "Sealed Gate" has been closed for the Darkness. GRRM cannot retreat until the Light-bringing. He was here for the Long Night. He GAZED at the Ruby Trident Map theory with the broken fork of Jon & Meera. He have come through rain and wrack and storm. He will not go back without doing what he came for, no matter how hopeless it may seem....he has to Bring the Lightning. He might have lost this surprise R+L=J twist by sheer luck, but he was no "George Lucas" and his Hollywood red "velvet" ropes. He is King Jon Stark's bibliographer.

"... led up from the Wolf's Den [...] When he reached the top, he turned to look behind him. From here he could see down into the harbors. BOTH OF THEM."

  • GRRM climbs up to the top, looks behind him, and symbolically see Jon & Meera: (White Harbor = Rome = Romulus/Remus = Jon/Meera). I like how "BOTH OF THEM" is one single sentence on its own...so much emphasis, so much power in just "Both of them."

 

With this 2011 ADWD hidden message and GRRM looking back at Jon & Meera, I still cannot tell if GRRM wants to write R+L=J&M......or if he moved on, only keeping half; R+L=J. I felt like his secret message was to vent out the inner-turmoil he had in May 2005. I doubt he expected someone to decipher this secret message in ADWD.

 

But since 2011, GRRM's fortune has changed:

Late 2011-2018: Perhaps with the popularity of HBO Games of Thrones, GRRM feels confident in going up against Lucas with his twins Jon & Meera.

2014: TWOIAF's first 3 full-page artworks and last 3 full-page artworks are clues to support R+L=J&M

2018: GRRM announced that Dark Sister is still in Bloodraven's possession, which can help Meera's case as a secret Targaryen.

 

I think R+L=J&M will happen in TWOW.

 

R+L=J has been predicted for a very very long time and there has been many many years in between the books.
It has been so long that complicated alternate twist theories have surfaced, with so many plot-holes that is filled in with our imaginations: N+A=J, N+Wyalla=J, N+A=D, R+L=A, baby swapping...etc.

R+L=J still makes the most sense.

R+L=J&M's only plot hole is that Meera has green eyes. That's it. And one of GRRM's regrets in writing ASOIAF are people's eye color.
Wouldn't R+L=J&M be a reasonable and acceptable twist alternate to R+L=J in ASOIAF?
...damn it, did I just ruin it for everyone?
Oh wells, don't blame me...blame the ape and the years of publication delays he created for GRRM.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Edited by The Map Guy

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George never calls George an ape through subtle allegories in his writing, only when he crank calls Skywalker ranch.

The original Star Wars trilogy came out long before GRRM even starting writing A Game of Thrones. The twin storyline dates to that, not to 2005.

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On 11/2/2018 at 10:38 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

George never calls George an ape through subtle allegories in his writing, only when he crank calls Skywalker ranch.

The original Star Wars trilogy came out long before GRRM even starting writing A Game of Thrones. The twin storyline dates to that, not to 2005.

I wonder how that crank call would go from George to George in May 2005...

*ring ring*

Lucas: *picks up the phone* Hello?

GRRM: You don't know who I am. You may not understand what I want. I am not looking for a ransom, I am actually doing okay with money...but what I do have are a very particular set of writing skills. Writing skills I have acquired over a very long career. Writing skills that make me a nightmare for apes in velvet like you. If you re-write your twins now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you, I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will team up with HBO, I will be bigger than you in about ~10 years, and my twins will KILL your twins, in fame...with their lightning sabers.

Lucas: ........may the Force be with you. *hangs up*

 

 

Yes, we knew Luke and Leia are twins from the original Star Wars in the 1970s/1980s, but we never got their origin stories until 2005.

In 1983, Return of the Jedi, Luke asked Leia if she remembers her mother, and she said a little bit...implying their mother was alive for a little bit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDYX_PgorRY

This scene in 1983 probably gave GRRM the green light to write Jon & Meera's origin story and probably all of ASOIAF. GRRM almost wrote a different book if it wasn't for the dead mother direwolf (she-wolf) scene that came to his head.

 

BUT LEIA LIED. Or it was just a small plot hole for Lucas.

In 2005, Revenge of the Sith, Luke & Leia's mother died in childbirth, amidst a rebellion...which is what GRRM wanted for R+L=J&M. Leia never knew her mother. This small Star Wars plot hole was BIG for GRRM, sending him to "chase a false light" from 1991 to 2005. He was in a position to be accused of plagiarism if he released AFFC in late 2005 with the R+L=J&M story...but this was just a unlucky coincidence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=442fN87TUCc

This scene was turmoil for GRRM. This would be too similar to R+L=J&M

  • Anakin = Rhaegar
  • Padme = Lyanna
  • Luke = Jon
  • Leia = Meera
  • Obi-Wan = Ned
  • Bail Organa = Howland
  • Sith = Robert
  • Yoda = Maester Ludwin

 

2005 George Lucas, 6 blockbuster Star Wars films, Hollywood, huge movie fandom, household name

vs.

2005 George RR Martin, 3 semi-popular books with AFFC set to release that year, small 2005 book fandom...I'll admit I never heard of GRRM in 2005, how about you guys?

Newborn twins separated and hid after their mother died during their childbirth...amidst a rebellion. Don't forget about the awesome combat just before the twins' birth...........and it was Lucas that went public first.

What should GRRM do in May 2005?

"I've come too late. Old instinct made him reach for his chest, where once he'd kept his fingerbones in a little sack on a leather thong. There was nothing there. He had lost his luck in the fires of the Blackwater, when he'd lost his ship and sons." (Davos II ADWD)

Even his instinct to keep writing R+L=J&M anyways, despite Lucas, ........left him.

 

So what does he do?

May 19, 2005 - Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith arrives in theaters

May 29, 2005 - GRRM announces AFFC/ADWD would be divided by POV instead of chronology

Which characters are missing from 2005 AFFC? Jon & Meera

When do they come back? Six years later in 2011 ADWD...with all the R+L=J&M foreshadowing missing

What was the reason for the six year gap? The Meeraenesse Knot. It may be a reference to the mythical Gordian Knot: a complicated rope knot or a complicated problem, solved by simply cutting it in half.

What do you get when your cut the knot of R+L=J&M in half? R+L=J

 

But its different now. GRRM is bigger than Lucas in 2018. The public would forgive him for writing R+L=J&M now.

This may even be why TWOW is taking so long...he is saving R+L=J&M just for the books.

 

Off topic: Anyways since youtube may be on for you readers, look up "Tower of Joy - Jedi Battle." If you have never seen it, it will change your nerdy life lol.

Edited by The Map Guy

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On 11/4/2018 at 1:43 AM, FictionIsntReal said:

Leia having a few memories of her mother vs none because her mom died in childbirth doesn't actually change things all that much.

Yes its a small change to Star Wars and to the rest of the world, BUT it was a big enough change for GRRM since he was going to base his ASOIAF trilogy on "twins separated at birth after their mother dies...during a rebellion"

In 1983 to 2004, GRRM knew Luke and Leia were twins that were separated at one point, and the mother was alive with baby Leia for a little bit.

This was enough for him to write something a little different for ASOIAF: "twins separated at birth after their mother dies...during a rebellion"

Unfortunately by sheer BAD LUCK, 2005 Luke & Leia were also "twins separated at birth after their mother dies...during a rebellion"

 

Padme's death scene was almost exactly how GRRM imagined Lyanna's R+L=J&M death scene to be.

GRRM must have been cursing Lucas' name in the theater in May 2005.

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5 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

 

Padme's death scene was almost exactly how GRRM imagined Lyanna's R+L=J&M death scene to be.

Pure curiosity, but how do you know that? 

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I wonder what makes one so sure that George Lucas didn't know who GRRM was in 2005?  Considering locales of living and work over the years for both, as well as interests, I'd be interested to really know the answer to that one.  I mean, the real answer, not a twin related conspiracy theory about fictional stories that is. 

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On 11/5/2018 at 11:30 AM, Ran said:

I promise you, Star Wars has nothing to do with George's plans for ASoIaF.

Which George are we talking about? lol jk
I already know Ran, my whole point of my conspiracy theory of the Meereenese Knot implies that GRRM is AVOIDING Star Wars at all cost. Even spending extra years to re-write ADWD...maybe even adding some more stories in Meereen so he can use his super clever word play the "Meereenese Knot"

20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Pure curiosity, but how do you know that? 

Forgive me for I have sinned...I have been watching and comparing Padme's death and D&D's version of TOJ on youtube...and they are eerily similar.

"Obi wan...there is good in him. I know there is...still.........promise me Obi-wan, promise me"

 

19 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I wonder what makes one so sure that George Lucas didn't know who GRRM was in 2005?  Considering locales of living and work over the years for both, as well as interests, I'd be interested to really know the answer to that one.  I mean, the real answer, not a twin related conspiracy theory about fictional stories that is. 

I think Lucas does know who GRRM is in 2005, maybe even stole some of his ideas for Star Wars. Doesn't mean GRRM would do the same.

This 2005 twins conspiracy is quite the conspiracy to speculate on huh? Whether its true or not.

George vs. George...ASOIAF vs. Star Wars....Jon & Meera vs. Luke & Leia.

Even in 2005, the ASOIAF fandom is all about quality, but there is no denying about the Star Wars fandom's quantity.

GRRM can't be angry at Lucas. Just like someone dating the boy/girl you always wanted only because they made the first move...you can't be angry at them. But you want to hate them for it since you were never given the chance. As a cherry on top, you would subconsciously hate them even more if you guys have the same first name (my friend's actual personal experience lol).

 

***Putting on tin-foil hat***

Who knows...when GRRM accepted the HBO deal, he did it for fame, money, making ASOIAF more public....and maybe a secret subconscious "Count of Monte Cristo"-type vendetta to surpass George Lucas, so he can have the opportunity to re-write his darling Meera Stargaryen again someday...after spending six years in the "ADWD-re-write" dungeon. As of 2018, he has risen to that level now, he can execute his revenge plan (assuming this was the plan all along). 

I guess we have to wait for TWOW.

Edited by The Map Guy

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10 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Yes its a small change to Star Wars and to the rest of the world, BUT it was a big enough change for GRRM since he was going to base his ASOIAF trilogy on "twins separated at birth after their mother dies...during a rebellion"

You are assuming your conclusion (often known as the fallacy of "begging the question"). The change seems minor enough that I doubt GRRM changed anything in response to that specific change.

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14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You are assuming your conclusion (often known as the fallacy of "begging the question"). The change seems minor enough that I doubt GRRM changed anything in response to that specific change.

I am assuming my conclusion, that is why it is called a theory.

Perhaps we will never hear GRRM admit to this Star Wars debacle, he will definitely not admit to it before R+L=J or R+L=J&M is officially revealed in the books.

I am pretty confident that R+L=J&M existed in AGOT, ACOK, ASOS. Then Meera did not show up in AFFC, and in ADWD all the foreshadowing is gone.

Something had to happen between 2000 ASOS to 2011 ADWD that made GRRM stop writing R+L=J&M.

It could be Star Wars, it could be something else....but what "else" can make an author deviate from his original plot?

"The gods were cruel to let a man sail across half the world, then send him chasing a false light when he was almost home." Davos II ADWD 

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I just want to add one more silly silly silly thing:

IF GRRM does write R+L=J&M for TWOW, there may be an internet war in the future between ASOIAF fandom vs Star Wars fandom.

The Star Wars fandom...whether its a million fans, a thousand fans, or just one fan...they will accuse GRRM stealing the twins story from Lucas.

We, as the ASOIAF fandom, must defend GRRM and some how prove that he didn't copy Luke & Leia from 2005.

The Star Wars fandom will not read all of 1996 AGOT, 1998 ACOK, & 2000 ASOS and digest all the subtle book clues for R+L=J&M.

I think the quickest way to prove the Star Wars fandom wrong is showing the 1996 map in AGOT...the Ruby Map theory and "The Twins"

But even then, those fans may be too stubborn to accept it.

Anyways, just a silly heads up for the wars to come.....

 

Edited by The Map Guy

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On 11/5/2018 at 8:30 AM, Ran said:

I promise you, Star Wars has nothing to do with George's plans for ASoIaF.

Lol Not that it is likely ripped from Star Wars or anything and may not even be right, but i've definitely used Star Wars to describe a scene. The one where Daenerys see's Rhaegar in his armor but when the helm is lifted it's actually her. Alwayssss reminded me of the scene in Empire when Vaders masks explodes to reveal Lukes face. Vader being Lukes father, but also a metaphor for what Luke can become unchecked. Leading him to become a sith. 

Feels the same, even on the metaphorical level. Daenerys becoming Rhaegar like, in his better qualities, as opposed to the Mad King.

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If I understand you correctly, you are saying that for legal reasons GRRM could no longer use the story he originally imagined, as the factor that the birth was during a rebellion somehow pushed it over the line from permissible to impermissible?

I don't believe that that's true. But even if it were, it would have made no difference. In patent law whoever gets the patent approved first owns the invention, so tough luck for others. In copyright law independent creation is a defense against claims, so if two people come up with the same or similar work independently, neither has any claim against the other.

IIRC GRRM has also confirmed that there was an essay (I think it was Untanglig the Meerenese Knot over at The Meerenese Blot) that correctly identified that nature of the Meerenese knot.

Edited by Karlshammar

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11 hours ago, Ran said:

I very much doubt anything of the sort would happen. 

Where is the imagination? We would nominate you, Ran, as the ASOIAF General for this war in defending GRRM. As the General, you have permission to use my decoded maps for your tactical plans in defeating the Empire.

But in all seriousness, R+L=J&M was originally presented as a HBO/tv theory since the actress that plays Meera looks like Kit Harrington. When this TV theory was made public on the internet and magazines, people immediately said it was too "Star Wars." If the R+L=J&M theory becomes true in the book, best believe the same storm will come. The good news is that it 2018 now, and not 2005.

 

11 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Lol Not that it is likely ripped from Star Wars or anything and may not even be right, but i've definitely used Star Wars to describe a scene. The one where Daenerys see's Rhaegar in his armor but when the helm is lifted it's actually her. Alwayssss reminded me of the scene in Empire when Vaders masks explodes to reveal Lukes face. Vader being Lukes father, but also a metaphor for what Luke can become unchecked. Leading him to become a sith. 

Feels the same, even on the metaphorical level. Daenerys becoming Rhaegar like, in his better qualities, as opposed to the Mad King.

I forgot about that scene in Star Wars so I re-watched it on youtube....and then it hit me:

Luke's Jedi training with Yoda in the swamp....is that the same as Bran's greenseer training with Bloodraven in the cave?? Nahhh it can't be...

 

9 hours ago, Karlshammar said:

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that for legal reasons GRRM could no longer use the story he originally imagined, as the factor that the birth was during a rebellion somehow pushed it over the line from permissible to impermissible?

I don't believe that that's true. But even if it were, it would have made no difference. In patent law whoever gets the patent approved first owns the invention, so tough luck for others. In copyright law independent creation is a defense against claims, so if two people come up with the same or similar work independently, neither has any claim against the other.

IIRC GRRM has also confirmed that there was an essay (I think it was Untanglig the Meerenese Knot over at The Meerenese Blot) that correctly identified that nature of the Meerenese knot.

Oh wow I didn't even think about the legal aspect of it. If GRRM had R+L=J&M ready for October 2005 AFFC and publishes it, would Lucas sue over the similarity of the twins story? Lucas won't win, but if that lawsuit was made public, it would jeopardize GRRM's career and reputation anyways in 2005. Hollywood is rough with their accusations, esp nowadays. The 2005 ASOIAF fandom will remain loyal, but it will be harder for GRRM to get new readers. Perhaps GRRM thought all this stuff through and abandoned R+L=J&M in 2005 to avoid a potentially big career mistake. We may never know what his intentions were back then, but whatever he did or didn't do, it paid off big with HBO. He is a natural tactician.

In regards to "Untangling the Meereenese Knot", GRRM cannot admit Meera's role in the Meereenese Knot without revealing R+L=J prematurely. R+J=L is still not confirmed in the books.

6 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The Star Wars change is way too minor to constitute a "debacle".

The "debacle" I was referring to is GRRM and Star Wars....not Lucas and Star Wars. Regardless of what happened in the 1980s, this happened or was suppose to happen in 2005:

Boy/girl twins separated at birth, hidden away from the new ruler. Their mother dies giving birth to them and their father falls in battle. The separated twins are unaware of their origins, but when they grow up, they are natural born leaders and heroes to our story.

Who am I talking about? Jon & Meera? Or Luke & Leia?

And who knows what happens to Jon & Meera in GRRM's original R+L=J&M, maybe even some Targaryen twincest. Luke & Leia already got to first base in that department. Its just too damn similar.

Edited by The Map Guy

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4 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

Please, don't post under the influence

Life is more fun that way! ...except driving. Don't that while operating machinery.

1 hour ago, Umber Jack said:

"The Simpsons already did it."

Huh, which episode?

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