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R+L=J&M [Part IV] - Is this GRRM's secret message in ADWD in regards to missing out on J&M? Does he call George Lucas an 'ape'?

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(already answered but my post seems to have vanished?!) That's actually an episode of South Park: "The Simpsons already did it", about plot ideas made impossible by the fact that the Simpsons already did it... Had to think about that when reading how GRRM supposedly changed his plans for similar topics being treated by Star Wars.

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1 hour ago, The Sunland Lord said:

GRRM couldn't do the twins born in rebellion story, but did the twincest story. Lucas didn't have the courage to go further than that Leia/Luke kiss. :cheers: 

Are you saying Martin's cojones are much larger than Lucas'? :lol:

Which, btw, I totes agree on. 

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46 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

GRRM couldn't do the twins born in rebellion story, but did the twincest story. Lucas didn't have the courage to go further than that Leia/Luke kiss. :cheers: 

AHAHA I guess compared to Lucas, GRRM is a home run hitter for the Twins...whaddup Minnesota!

Edited by The Map Guy

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On 11/7/2018 at 12:44 AM, The Map Guy said:

The "debacle" I was referring to is GRRM and Star Wars....not Lucas and Star Wars. Regardless of what happened in the 1980s, this happened or was suppose to happen in 2005:

Boy/girl twins separated at birth, hidden away from the new ruler. Their mother dies giving birth to them and their father falls in battle. The separated twins are unaware of their origins, but when they grow up, they are natural born leaders and heroes to our story.

Who am I talking about? Jon & Meera? Or Luke & Leia?

And who knows what happens to Jon & Meera in GRRM's original R+L=J&M, maybe even some Targaryen twincest. Luke & Leia already got to first base in that department. Its just too damn similar.

I never claimed the "debacle" was for Lucas. I'm saying the extremely minor Star Wars change cannot be significant enough to constitute a "debacle" for GRRM. Just about everything you're saying still applies to the original trilogy. Retconning whether Leia has any memories of her mother doesn't matter.

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On 11/8/2018 at 11:43 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I never claimed the "debacle" was for Lucas. I'm saying the extremely minor Star Wars change cannot be significant enough to constitute a "debacle" for GRRM. Just about everything you're saying still applies to the original trilogy. Retconning whether Leia has any memories of her mother doesn't matter.

I feel like we are arguing in circles..."yes it is...no it is not...yes it is...no it is not"

One last time:

  • 1983 Leia said she remembers her 'real' mother when was she younger
  • 1983-2005 Fans assumed Leia's 'real' mother was alive for a few years after her birth
  • May 2005 Leia's mother died on her birth date...everything we knew about her 'real' mother since 1983 was wrong. 

You are right, it is not a big deal in Star Wars or our anyone's real lives. It would only matter to an author who is writing another established fantasy fiction with a big unrevealed secret twist: the "twin's origins" story. GRRM knew his twins would be close to Luke & Leia and thought he cleared Lucas' 1983 version of the mother NOT dying at birth. But in 2005, the Star Wars story change. Even worst, it was exactly the story GRRM had planned for ASOIAF and he was not the one to publish it first.

Star Wars: Leia's mother died giving birth to twins, who had to be separated so the current regime cannot find them. Despite the twins' special origins, they become heroes when they are adults - This is a CORE PLOT leading up to the 1970/1980s trilogy...not a subplot or a plot with a dead end.

For R+L=J&M ASOIAF: Their mother died giving birth to twins, who had to be separated so the current regime cannot find them. Despite the twins' special origins, they become heroes when they are adults - This is a CORE PLOT too, a secret twist to the CORE theory R+L=J...not a subplot or a plot with a dead end.

In 2005, GRRM is just books. Aside from Lucas/Star Wars, he has competition in the fantasy department with Jackson/Tolkien/LOTR, Rowling/Harry Potter...etc.

George always want to be Hollywood too. Going back to his secret message in ADWD:
"One voyage to the east [symbolically meaning Hollywood in this hidden message], and a man could live as rich as a lord until the end of his days. When he'd been younger, Davos had dreamed of making such voyages himself, but the years went dancing by like moths around a flame, and somehow the time had never been quite right. One day, he told himself." (Davos II ADWD) 

GRRM's chances in becoming big will be weaken if he was accused of plagiarizing his CORE plot with another CORE plot. And its not just any CORE plot, it is George Lucas' CORE plot and he is NOT a no-name writer/director. And if GRRM's original plan was to reveal R+L=J&M in October 2005 AFFC, then it would have been the same YEAR too. "...the time had never been quite right"

GRRM created the Meereenese Knot and brought more time (sadly 13 years of time). He finally teamed up with HBO in 2007 (with the first season aired in 2011) so he can compete with the Lucas, the Tolkien/Jacksons, the Rowlings of the Hollywood world.

He has build enough credibility to reveal a twins story that would be similar to Luke & Leia, but the world will give him a pass now. He would still receive some flak from Star Wars fans, but who cares about them...ASOIAF > Star Wars.

And I predict that R+L=J&M will be revealed in TWOW because it was his original plan since 1991. He laid out subtle hints in 2014 TWOIAF. He is saving this secret reveal for "books only", probably as a reward for loyal book readers. He probably has parts of TWOW ready from his original AFFC notes in 2005. And now how it relates to TWOW's current delay?

Spoiler

TWOW ain't coming out until HBO concludes the TV show and their version of TOJ

 

Edited by The Map Guy

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22 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Star Wars: Leia's mother died giving birth to twins, who had to be separated so the current regime cannot find them. Despite the twins' special origins, they become heroes when they are adults - This is a CORE PLOT leading up to the 1970/1980s trilogy...not a subplot or a plot with a dead end.

In the original Star Wars, Luke & Leia were split up so Vader could not find them. Leia was even the princess of Alderaan, with the name Organa, so that when Vader confronted her he had no idea who she was. In comparison, it's kind of silly that Luke was still named "Skywalker" and was raised by Kenobi's brother, but I guess it's assumed that Tatooine was such a backwater (despite being Vader's home planet) that this wasn't a risk. Leia thinking she remembers her mother doesn't change the "CORE PLOT".

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For R+L=J&M ASOIAF: Their mother died giving birth to twins, who had to be separated so the current regime cannot find them. Despite the twins' special origins, they become heroes when they are adults - This is a CORE PLOT too, a secret twist to the CORE theory R+L=J...not a subplot or a plot with a dead end.

There's a pretty big difference between Jon & Meera. Jon is a POV character (the one with the most ADWD chapters) who serves as our eyes at the Wall & Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. Meera is a supporting character in Bran's POV chapters. She appears together with Jojen Reed, and given the mystical nature of Bran's plot Jojen was arguably the more important of the two. Leia is the only notable female character in A New Hope, but GRRM gave us 4 such POVs in AGOT and didn't even introduce Meera until the next book.

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In 2005, GRRM is just books. Aside from Lucas/Star Wars, he has competition in fantasy department with Jackson/Tolkien/LOTR, Rowling/Harry Potter...etc.

If GRRM is "just books", then I wouldn't say his competition includes films. I wouldn't even include authors who've been dead for decades among his competitors.

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George always want to be Hollywood too.

George had already been in Hollywood. He made money writing scripts that never got produced, as well as some that were. He started writing ASOIAF specifically with disregard for the practicalities of production.

Quote

Going back to his secret message in ADWD:
"One voyage to the east [symbolically meaning Hollywood in this hidden message], and a man could live as rich as a lord until the end of his days. When he'd been younger, Davos had dreamed of making such voyages himself, but the years went dancing by like moths around a flame, and somehow the time had never been quite right. One day, he told himself." (Davos II ADWD)

Hollywood is obviously on the west coast. New York is the financial center in the east, which began as a trading port.

Quote

GRRM chances in becoming big will be weaken if he was accused of plagiarizing his CORE plot with another CORE plot. And its not just any CORE plot, it is George Lucas' CORE plot and he is NOT a no-name writer/director. And if GRRM's original plan was reveal R+L=J&M in October 2005 AFFC, then it would have been the same YEAR too. "...the time had never been quite right"GRRM created the Meereenese Knot and brought more time (sadly 13 years of time).

You think GRRM has deliberately not advanced a plot in his books in order to ensure it was more than a decade away from a very minor plot point in Lucas' poorly received prequel trilogy?

Quote

He finally teamed up with HBO in 2007 (with the first season aired in 2011) so he can compete with the Lucas, the Tolkien/Jacksons, the Rowlings of the Hollywood world.

He teamed up with HBO because he had received multiple offers to adapt the books over the years, but always as feature films (thus competing with the Tolkien & Rowling adaptations) which would compress too much of the story. A long running tv series was the only possibility for him, although that wouldn't be feasible until HBO started spending enough money to put his deliberately impractical material onscreen (or an approximation of it).

Quote

He has build enough credibility to reveal a twins story that would be similar to Luke & Leia, but the world will give him a pass now. He would still receive some flak from Star Wars fans, but who cares about them...ASOIAF > Star Wars.

And I predict that R+L=J&M will be revealed in TWOW because it was his original plan since 1991. He laid out subtle hints in 2014 TWOIAF. He is saving this secret reveal for "books only", probably as a reward for loyal book readers. He probably has parts of TWOW ready from his original AFFC notes in 2005. And now how it relates to TWOW's current delay?

He already receives flak from his own fans about how many mothers die from childbirth in his stories. It's a writing cliche that removes the mother from the story and gives the kid a sad backstory. Tyrion was another POV character with that backstory who appears earlier than Meera. Using that plotline again wouldn't seem like ripping off Lucas but instead repeating his own tropes.

Edited by FictionIsntReal

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14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

There's a pretty big difference between Jon & Meera. Jon is a POV character (the one with the most ADWD chapters) who serves as our eyes at the Wall & Lord Commander of the Nights Watch. Meera is a supporting character in Bran's POV chapters. She appears together with Jojen Reed, and given the mystical nature of Bran's plot Jojen was arguably the more important of the two. Leia is the only notable female character in A New Hope, but GRRM gave us 4 such POVs in AGOT and didn't even introduce Meera until the next book.

GRRM hid Meera in plain sight since 1996 as Jon's "Twin" in Greywater Watch in AGOT in the Ruby Map Theory. In ACOK, Jon's twin is introduced as Meera Reed (mirror read). It is GRRM's big twist for TWOW:
https://ew.com/article/2016/02/25/george-rr-martins-game-thrones-twist/

Meera had clues in AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, but disappeared in AFFC & ADWD. For example:

AGOT 1996:
"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." - Ned in (Arya II)

ACOK 1998:
"Meera [Lyanna's daughter] had claimed Lord Rickard's blade, though she complained that it was too heavy" - (Bran VII)

ASOS 2000:
Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his [or her] grandfather Lord Rickard. - (Bran I)

AFFC 2005:
Meera/Bran chapters are omitted.

ADWD 2011:
NO MENTION OF LORD RICKARD's SWORD AT ALL
Furthermore in ADWD:
[...] Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came." - (Bran III)

Meera was suppose to have hidden major role for ASOIAF, but by the time ADWD arrived, it felt like she was just role-player again, maybe even an obsolete player.

So what do you think happened to R+L=J&M twins between 2000 ASOS and 2011 ADWD, other than Star Wars' Luke & Leia's origin scene in 2005? I doubt it has anything to do with the Twin Towers attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

But GRRM wrote ADWD in a way that if he wants to take the R+L=J&M option for TWOW in the future, he still can.

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

If GRRM is "just books", then I wouldn't say his competition includes films. I wouldn't even include authors who've been dead for decades among his competitors.
George always want to be Hollywood too.
Hollywood is obviously on the west coast. New York is the financial center in the east, which began as a trading port.

GRRM was just a role-player in Hollywood before HBO, but he has earn a spot on the Hollywood "Mount Rushmore" of epic fantasy saga along with Lucas, Jackson/Tolkien, Rowling...etc

"East" meaning Essos for Davos' POV. For GRRM's secret message, this destination is "Hollywood."

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

You think GRRM has deliberately not advanced a plot in his books in order to ensure it was more than a decade away from a very minor plot point in Lucas' poorly received prequel trilogy?

Yes and No. Yes in 2005-2011. After gaining popularity, No after ~2013.

I think he picked up that R+L=J&M option by 2013. Even the script for 2013 HBO's Rains of Castamere had subtle R+L=J&M clues. I mentioned the 2014 TWOIAF clues in Part I & II of my theory. Even the excerpt for 2018 Fire & Blood has a little bit R+L=J&M too. I may have tunnel vision, but when I listen to GRRM's interviewS where he mentions "pointing to a clue" or "I drew a map!" (the code-breaker for the Ruby Map theory is pointing)...GRRM is trolling us with R+L=J&M.

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He teamed up with HBO because he had received multiple offers to adapt the books over the years, but always as feature films (thus competing with the Tolkien & Rowling adaptations) which would compress too much of the story. A long running tv series was the only possibility for him, although that wouldn't be feasible until HBO started spending enough money to put his deliberately impractical material onscreen (or an approximation of it).

Agreed

14 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

He already receives flak from his own fans about how many mothers die from childbirth in his stories. It's a writing cliche that removes the mother from the story and gives the kid a sad backstory. Tyrion was another POV character with that backstory who appears earlier than Meera. Using that plotline again wouldn't seem like ripping off Lucas but instead repeating his own tropes.

The CORE PLOT is humans vs. the Others. Tyrion is just a major subplot to the series. He even ignores the threat of the Others.
GRRM's own established twins Jaime & Cersei are not separated at birth amidst a rebellion. He is not reusing his own story lines. Like I said before, everything with Lucas is just a bad coincidence.

Edited by The Map Guy

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1 hour ago, The Map Guy said:

GRRM hid Meera in plain sight since 1996 as Jon's "Twin" in Greywater Watch in AGOT in the Ruby Map Theory.

Meera wasn't introduced in AGOT.

Quote

In ACOK, Jon's twin is introduced as Meera Reed (mirror read). It is GRRM's big twist for TWOW:
https://ew.com/article/2016/02/25/george-rr-martins-game-thrones-twist/

In that very link it says "Last April, Martin told EW he came up with a twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered". So he came up with this around 2015, and hadn't considered it when writing any of the currently published books in the series. He also describes it as emerging organically from the character, not something that has been embedded via symbolism from the beginning. Furthermore, he indicates that this is a character killed off by the show, where Meera is still alive.

Quote

Meera had clues in AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, but disappeared in AFFC & ADWD. For example:

AGOT 1996:
"Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her." - Ned in (Arya II)

ACOK 1998:
"Meera [Lyanna's daughter] had claimed Lord Rickard's blade, though she complained that it was too heavy" - (Bran VII)

ASOS 2000:
Bran claimed his uncle Brandon's sword, Meera the one she found upon the knees of his [or her] grandfather Lord Rickard. - (Bran I)

AFFC 2005:
Meera/Bran chapters are omitted.

ADWD 2011:
NO MENTION OF LORD RICKARD's SWORD AT ALL
Furthermore in ADWD:
[...] Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came." - (Bran III)

Meera is a crannogman, she prefers spears to swords.

Quote

Meera was suppose to have hidden major role for ASOIAF, but by the time ADWD arrived, it felt like she was just role-player again, maybe even an obsolete player.

Meera is a supporting character in Bran's story. His number of chapters peaked in A Game of Thrones & A Clash of Kings. There was less material once he left Winterfell and had fewer people to interact with. GRRM's original plan was for a five-year gap in which Bran would grow older under the tutelage of the Three Eyed Raven, removing that gap (because GRRM didn't want to skip over events in King's Landing) meant he was stuck in a spot that was supposed to be skipped over.

Quote

So what do you think happened to R+L=J&M between 2000 ASOS and 2011 ADWD, other than Star Wars' Luke & Leia's origin scene in 2005?

Remember when I accused you of assuming your conclusion? It's considered a logical fallacy for a reason.

Quote

GRRM was just a role-player in Hollywood before HBO, but he has earn a spot on the Hollywood "Mount Rushmore" of epic fantasy saga along with Lucas, Jackson/Tolkien, Rowling...etc

GRRM was a screenwriter, which is admittedly not that high on the totem pole. But he's been relatively hands-off in recent years of the show because he doesn't have time to deal with that and continue with his books. Jackson is a director rather than writer, different from GRRM. Tolkien, again, was already dead even before Ralph Bakshi's film, much less Jackson's.

Quote

"East" meaning Essos for Davos' POV. For GRRM's secret message, this destination is "Hollywood."

Yes and No. Yes in 2005-2011. After gaining popularity, No after ~2013.

That's a pretty dumb secret message, since Essos is obviously in the east and seems inspired by the slaveowning civilizations of the Meditteranean (while Braavos is Renaissance Venice).

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Even the script for 2013 HBO's Rains of Castamere had subtle R+L=J&M clues.

GRRM didn't write that episode, he wrote "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" (although the bear material was moved back from a later episode he didn't write).

Quote

I may have tunnel vision,

Not "may", but "definitely" :)

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but when I listen to GRRM's interview where he mentions "pointing to a clue" or "I drew a map!" (the code-breaker for the Ruby Map theory is pointing)...GRRM is trolling us with R+L=J&M.

I don't think there are enough adherents of this theory for him to waste much time trolling them.

Quote

The CORE PLOT is humans vs. the Others. Tyrion is just a major subplot to the series. He even ignores the threat of the Others.

Tyrion plays a prominent role in the original pitch letter/outline. The Reeds do not.

Quote

GRRM's own established twins Jaime & Cersei are not separated at birth amidst a rebellion. He is not reusing his own story lines. Like I said before, everything with Lucas is just a bad coincidence.

The childbirth killing the mother is the bit I was referring to, since GRRM has used it repeatedly and that's the big change you point to in Lucas' prequel trilogy.

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On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Not "may", but "definitely" :)

Haha yes, but its because of my "tunnel vision" I was able to look pass Meera's green eyes for this R+L=J&M theory. I hope everyone enjoys reading it, and if it does appear in TWOW, sorry that I spoiled it. And thanks for keeping the discussion alive fictionisntreal...I was getting a feeling that people were sick of hearing about it. Believe it or not, I still have more R+L=J&M notes lol. I'll throw some more here on this post.

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Meera wasn't introduced in AGOT.

She wasn't, but the 1996 AGOT Ruby map theory suggested a twin for Jon Snow at Greywater Watch. Whatever person that shows up from Greywater Watch that is about Jon's age, male or female, would the theorized twin. And luckily, we are introduced to Meera in ACOK...with a pretty neat introduction that I mentioned in Part I.

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

In that very link it says "Last April, Martin told EW he came up with a twist on a long-time character that he never previously considered". So he came up with this around 2015, and hadn't considered it when writing any of the currently published books in the series. He also describes it as emerging organically from the character, not something that has been embedded via symbolism from the beginning. Furthermore, he indicates that this is a character killed off by the show, where Meera is still alive.

MUAHAHA GRRM LIED so you won't go re-reading the books for the foreshadowing clues on these ~15 characters.
And no, he tried to trick you again, he said a character from a "group" died in the show, but not in the books...and he used the numbers "3" & "4". The character that has the actual twist is IN this "group" ... doesn't necessarily mean the dead TV character is the one with the book twist.
Which "group" has 3 people in the show, but that same "group" has 4 in the books??
GRRM even cleverly used the words "very natural and organic". Sort of like a ... plant.

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Meera is a crannogman, she prefers spears to swords.

DING DING DING You have unlocked another big R+L=J&M clue: What does Meera's frog spear look like?????

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

Remember when I accused you of assuming your conclusion? It's considered a logical fallacy for a reason.

Well then explain to me the significance of Davos staring up at the Old Fishfoot Statue with his broken trident and saying all the things he said. R+L=J&M was broken in ADWD...but Why? When? Why did it take so long to write ADWD after 2005 AFFC? GRRM said it only should take a year or two after AFFC. But it took six years for ADWD. And he blames it on the Meere-enese Knot.

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

That's a pretty dumb secret message, since Essos is obviously in the east and seems inspired by the slaveowning civilizations of the Meditteranean (while Braavos is Renaissance Venice).

Well Hollywood in real life would be west of New Mexico. If GRRM said "west" instead of "east", what is "west" of Westeros??
And yes...Braavos is Renaissance Venice...beautiful old city everyone needs to visit in their lifetime :)

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM didn't write that episode, he wrote "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" (although the bear material was moved back from a later episode he didn't write).

Lol I was re-watching both episodes last night: The Bear and the Maiden Fair, Rains of Castermere...BOTH episodes have subtle R+L=J&M clues via film-editing techniques, and one dialogue with King Robb...makes me wonder if D&D knew the whole time.....

On 11/10/2018 at 4:53 PM, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think there are enough adherents of this theory for him to waste much time trolling them.

Sorry I had a typo...its not "interview", its "interviews". Anyways I theorized that R+L=J&M is a core plot when he took elements from the Romulus/Remus twin story. When he mentioned that Meera has green eyes in ASOS, he sealed that gate for readers to theorized twins. If he gave Meera grey or purple eyes in 2000, the small ASOIAF fandom would have at least theorized R+L=J&M then. Maybe GRRM even continues writing it for AFFC and ADWD...despite Star Wars...because his fans would be able to come to his defense with their theory from 2000. But those green eyes were a such huge deal breaker...no one truly considered R+L=J&M to be a solid theory back then. 

According to an interview, one of GRRM's biggest regret in ASOIAF is giving certain characters an eye color that did not fit with the story. The ONLY way now to theorize Meera = Jon's twin is by what he drew in his 1996 map. I bet GRRM was praying for some crazy obsessive map guy to decipher his difficult but easy map, to start the R+L=J&M theory debate after May 2005 so he can salvage R+L=J&M for ADWD. Better late than never :) 

Edited by The Map Guy
referenced wrong HBO scene

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11 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

MUAHAHA GRRM LIED so you won't go re-reading the books for the foreshadowing clues on these ~15 characters.

GRRM typically declines to say anything rather than lie when he wants to conceal information about upcoming books. If you are accusing him of lying, I don't see how you can cite this interview one way or another.

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And no, he tried to trick you again, he said a character from a "group" died in the show, but not in the books...and he used the numbers "3" & "4". The character that has the actual twist is IN this "group" ... doesn't necessarily mean the dead TV character is the one with the book twist.
Which "group" has 3 people in the show, but that same "group" has 4 in the books??
GRRM even cleverly used the words "very natural and organic". Sort of like a ... plant.

No, the word "group" isn't used at all at the link. Instead he said "it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed". Meera is alive on the show, so the show could do this. Actually, even if she had died they could reveal it anyway via Bran's visions or Howland Reed. This indicates to me that the twist involves the characters doing something. And the terms "natural" and "organic" are pretty standard terms used in plotting to describe the opposite of a deus ex machina, which comes out of nowhere.

Quote

R+L=J&M was broken in ADWD...but Why? When?

Again, you are assuming the conclusion that the story was headed for J+M prior to ADWD. Someone who doesn't embrace that theory doesn't have to explain why GRRM hasn't revealed it.

Quote

Why did it take so long to write ADWD after 2005 AFFC? GRRM said it only should take a year or two after AFFC. But it took six years for ADWD. And he blames it on the Meere-enese Knot.

If you read his pitch letter/outline, he says that he's writing a trilogy in which AGOT will depict a Westerosi civil war, ADWD depicts a Dothraki invasion and TWOW depicts war with the Others. That first book expanded into three books, which he wrote in relatively quick succession (1996, 1998, 2000). The political story just kept getting more complicated (to the point that the actual ADWD only re-introduces the Dothraki at the end, with no invasion imminent). In that same letter, he says that he loses interest when he knows how things are going to turn out, and that may be what happened. It was 5 years between ASOS and AFFC, then 6 between AFFC and ADWD, and even in the extremely unlike event that TWOW was published this year, it would be 7 years since ADWD. It sounds like his writing process has slowed down and he's gotten more interested in things like Targaryen history. Even the impact of a reveal regarding Meera seems unimportant, not enough to cause multiple years long delays.

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Lol I was re-watching both episodes last night: The Bear and the Maiden Fair, Rains of Castermere...BOTH episodes have subtle R+L=J&M clues via film-editing techniques, and one dialogue with King Robb at the Twins...makes me wonder if D&D knew the whole time.....

This just indicates to me that you see clues where they don't exist. D&D have a lot on their plates, and instructing their editors to place clues for a twist that (per GRRM) they can't use would be a waste of their time. Furthermore, as noted GRRM didn't come up with his new twist until 2015, so he certainly wouldn't have already told D&D when they were making season 3.

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According to an interview, one of GRRM's biggest regret in ASOIAF is giving certain characters an eye color that did not fit with the story. 

Could you link to that interview?

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I bet GRRM was praying for some crazy obsessive map guy to decipher his difficult but easy map, to start the R+L=J&M theory debate after May 2005 so he can salvage R+L=J&M for ADWD.

Do you know what kind of person believes mass media contains hidden messages only they can detect?

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9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

GRRM typically declines to say anything rather than lie when he wants to conceal information about upcoming books. If you are accusing him of lying, I don't see how you can cite this interview one way or another.

GRRM LIES in interviews with a straight face...like how he still refers to Jon Snow as Ned's bastard son lol

9 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

No, the word "group" isn't used at all at the link. Instead he said "it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books. So the show can’t do it, because they have killed a character I have not killed". Meera is alive on the show, so the show could do this. Actually, even if she had died they could reveal it anyway via Bran's visions or Howland Reed. This indicates to me that the twist involves the characters doing something. And the terms "natural" and "organic" are pretty standard terms used in plotting to describe the opposite of a deus ex machina, which comes out of nowhere.

A couple of characters together = a group
It is fine, I'll keep my interpretation, you'll keep yours.

Off Topic: The show got it wrong, with weirwood.net you cannot just go to any place of any time. We may never know what happened at TOJ in Dorne unless it comes straight out of Howland Reed's mouth. The only way Bloodraven and Bran can spy into R+L=J or R+L=J&M is at the weirwood tree at the Wolf's Den in White Harbor...which I am pretty confident they were all there after TOJ and taking a ship from Starfall.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Again, you are assuming the conclusion that the story was headed for J+M prior to ADWD. Someone who doesn't embrace that theory doesn't have to explain why GRRM hasn't revealed it.

It's okay if you don't want to embrace the R+L=J&M theory with its corollaries the Ruby Map Theory and the Meera-enese Knot conspiracy. I post those here so others may read it and is given a chance to think about it. I know ALL OF IT SOUNDS CRAZY, but then I provided reasonable references and explanations. There are hundreds of other crazy theories in this forum that does not provide any references or use A LOT of imagination to fill the gaps. And sometimes those theories are embraced because a reader's heart has fallen in love with it, no matter how many holes the theory has.

The R+L=J&M theory doesn't have a lot of holes...other than being crazy and Meera's green eyes. It is everything R+L=J is, plus a little more with Meera. And it would be a smooth natural organic transition because Meera is a likable cool brave female character. I know some people may hate the R+L=J&M theory because it may contradict what their hearts believed happened at TOJ, like the N+A=J or R+L=D or baby swap theories...etc.

Even posting this R+L=J&M theory may give some hardcore ASOIAF fans some comfort knowing that TWOW is delayed because of Meera and HBO.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

This just indicates to me that you see clues where they don't exist. D&D have a lot on their plates, and instructing their editors to place clues for a twist that (per GRRM) they can't use would be a waste of their time. Furthermore, as noted GRRM didn't come up with his new twist until 2015, so he certainly wouldn't have already told D&D when they were making season 3.

I made a mistake with my last post, I referenced the wrong episode. The subtle R+L=J&M clue is in the script of "The Bear and Maiden Fair." I won't name names to avoid TV spoilers:
Person 1: You are my Queen.
Person 2: And I have your little prince or princess inside me.
Person 1: Why not both? *laughs*
Person 2: Don't be greedy! *laughs*
(The Bear and Maiden Fair, Game of Thrones, Season 3 Episode 7, HBO, script written by George RR Martin)

I still wonder if D&D knows about R+L=J&M...if they do, GRRM warned them not to be greedy in taking both of them lol.

Also the film-editing subtle clue was in the Rains of Castermere episode, where Meera had a random inexplicable 3 second solo scene coming off the tower in the Gift. The tower is suppose to represent Queen Alyssane's Queenscrown tower in the book version. You need to read Part II of the R+L=J&M theory to understand it.

The 2018 Fire and Blood excerpt:
"The men of the Night’s Watch were as THUNDERSTRUCK by the queen’s dragon as the people of White Harbor had been, though the queen [Alyssane] herself noted that Silverwing “does not like this Wall.” "

No one wanted to discuss Part II of my R+L+J&M theory of how Jon & Meera's Lightbringer powers is lightning, foreshadowed at Queens Alysanne's tower in ASOS. But that is okay with me. At least the word GRRM chosen in the excerpt, THUNDERSTRUCK, has given me some validations.

Some food for thought:
In the medieval ages, what are some sources that would bring light to mankind? Sun, fire, moon-light and ... lightning.

Wouldn't it be cool if the dragons can breathe lightning? Or every time Jon & Meera simultaneously swing Longclaw & Dark Sister while riding on top of Dany's dragons, fighting the Others ... the dark night skies flashes, electricity fills the air, and the ground trembles like an earthquake?

Oh, if this really happens in TWOW, sorry for spoiling it again.

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Could you link to that interview?

Sure:
Eye color regrets: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sdut-george-rr-martin-comic-con-2014jul28-story.html
Q1 was about general regrets
Q2 was "What major things?" - GRRM lightly respond with:
"But it confuses the issue when there are real mistakes and they're confusing the character's mistakes with the stupid author's mistakes. Some of these I can actually correct in later editions, like the horse sex and eye color but not necessarily all."

"Pointing": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQzCPf2NgwE
GRRM says "pointing" twice around the 4 minute mark...the codebreaker for the Ruby Map Theory is physically pointing

Original Inspiration and Maps:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S51i0EANGA
1:30 mark refers to the Romulus/Remus/She-wolf inspiration in my Part III of the R+L=J&M theory
2:45 mark, GRRM mentions maps twice, and how it was one of the first things he done for ASOIAF in 1991

10 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Do you know what kind of person believes mass media contains hidden messages only they can detect?

I don't know, what are they call?

And if you are referring to me, I am just saying that GRRM's work, SSMs and interviews has hidden messages & double meaning. And that is called "everyone else in this forum that has crafted a theory." :P
 

 

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6 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Q2 was "What major things?" - GRRM lightly respond with:
"But it confuses the issue when there are real mistakes and they're confusing the character's mistakes with the stupid author's mistakes. Some of these I can actually correct in later editions, like the horse sex and eye color but not necessarily all."

GRRM was referring to the fact that in one book Renly had a different eye colour than in another one. He never stated that he would have like to give a character another eye colour for story reasons.

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6 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

GRRM was referring to the fact that in one book Renly had a different eye colour than in another one. He never stated that he would have like to give a character another eye colour for story reasons.

Well obviously GRRM is not going to say he regrets Renly's AND Meera's eye colors, or he would send the fandom into a frenzy trying to figure out what it means.

When GRRM said "Some of these I can actually correct in later editions" ... he tried to provide a reason for green eyes in general in ADWD, but no one caught it. I mention that in Part I and in the comments. I am still waiting for someone to explain to me why Greywater Watch, a green swamp with green water, green frogs, green plants, green this, green that ... is not called Greenwater Watch.

So ... four threads of A LOT of references and explanations vs. green eyes (which I did make attempts at explaining). If it doesn't convince people of R+L=J&M, so be it.

I still have more notes I haven't revealed, and I don't think I ever will. But its not because of the criticism of this forum. The only way I would reveal R+L=J&M Part V is if I have direct permission from GRRM...the origin of Nissa Nissa's name. It's a dark little secret that is a little embarrassing, and I would only shed light on it if he says okay. The fandom would never look at ASOIAF the same way again ... that is why I would need his personal approval.

GRRM, if you are hiding in this forum as a lurker/reader, feel free to private message me...see if I got this theory right. We can chat about how horrible our NY Jets are too lol.

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On 11/11/2018 at 9:59 PM, The Map Guy said:

A couple of characters together = a group
It is fine, I'll keep my interpretation, you'll keep yours.

The "couple" of characters don't have to be together as of the currently published novels. And you haven't explained why Jojen's death would prevent the books from going this route.

Quote

The R+L=J&M theory doesn't have a lot of holes...other than being crazy and Meera's green eyes.

In reality, siblings can have different eye colors. This series treats genetics unrealistically, but it's not like GRRM is bound to adhere to what he introduced for Joffrey elsewhere.

Quote

And it would be a smooth natural organic transition because Meera is a likable cool brave female character.

Sudden reveals are not smooth/organic/natural, even if there's symbolic foreshadowing that one reader detects. Brienne is also those things you mention, but she's not Jon Snow's twin.

Quote

I know some people may hate the R+L=J&M theory because it may contradict what their hearts believed happened at TOJ, like the N+A=J or R+L=D or baby swap theories...etc.

I should put my cards on the table and say that I dislike R+L=J because I prefer Jon genuinely being a bastard & as lowborn as possible. So many POV characters are highborn, with Davos one of the few exceptions. Characters are important because of what they do, not who their parents are, and revealing that Jon is secretly the heir to the throne would be a bit like revealing that Tyrion was merely under a glamor that made him appear to be a dwarf.

Quote

I still wonder if D&D knows about R+L=J&M...if they do, GRRM warned them not to be greedy in taking both of them lol.

Also the film-editing subtle clue was in the Rains of Castermere episode, where Meera had a random inexplicable 3 second solo scene coming off the tower in the Gift.

As I already said, GRRM said that the didn't up with the twist until recently, so it couldn't have been referenced then. Unless D&D are somehow incepting ideas into his brain that they can never use in their own series.

Quote

Oh, if this really happens in TWOW, sorry for spoiling it again.

I don't think you have to worry about spoiling anything because people are going to read the book GRRM actually writes and not the completely different one in your head.

Quote

Sure:
Eye color regrets: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/opinion/the-conversation/sdut-george-rr-martin-comic-con-2014jul28-story.html
Q1 was about general regrets
Q2 was "What major things?" - GRRM lightly respond with:
"But it confuses the issue when there are real mistakes and they're confusing the character's mistakes with the stupid author's mistakes. Some of these I can actually correct in later editions, like the horse sex and eye color but not necessarily all."

As The Wondering Wolf already pointed out, he's clearly referring to a mistake he already corrected without any of your complications that are supposed to be resulting in years between books (which GRRM explains by accurately noting how complex they've gotten).

Quote

I don't know, what are they call?

And if you are referring to me, I am just saying that GRRM's work, SSMs and interviews has hidden messages & double meaning. And that is called "everyone else in this forum that has crafted a theory." :P

It's a common symptom of schizophrenia, which some fans put a lot of effort into mimicking.

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3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

The "couple" of characters don't have to be together as of the currently published novels. And you haven't explained why Jojen's death would prevent the books from going this route.

What we know:

  • "It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books."
  • "They have to grow out of situations"
  • "And with the various three, four characters involved … it all makes sense."

Instead of criticizing my theory, could you provide us with one? Do you have a better guess than Bran, Meera, Jojen & Hodor?

And no, I cannot explain Jojen's fate. I just don't know. Nothing foreshadows his difference between the book and the show.
The only thing I can think of, which I cannot prove is: Jojen is Howland Reed the whole time, Jojen is actually a green men from the Isle of Faces, or Bran needs to eat the Jojen paste.

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

In reality, siblings can have different eye colors. This series treats genetics unrealistically, but it's not like GRRM is bound to adhere to what he introduced for Joffrey elsewhere.

um.....thank you?

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

Sudden reveals are not smooth/organic/natural, even if there's symbolic foreshadowing that one reader detects. Brienne is also those things you mention, but she's not Jon Snow's twin.

It's not just symbolic foreshadowing, its also about timing. Ned & Howland were survivors at TOJ. Ned has a mysterious bastard son whose birth fit around the TOJ timing...and so does Meera. And sometimes we forget, Jon has not have his secret reveal too in the books. Both Jon & Meera's secret identities are still up for grabs.

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I should put my cards on the table and say that I dislike R+L=J because I prefer Jon genuinely being a bastard & as lowborn as possible. So many POV characters are highborn, with Davos one of the few exceptions. Characters are important because of what they do, not who their parents are, and revealing that Jon is secretly the heir to the throne would be a bit like revealing that Tyrion was merely under a glamor that made him appear to be a dwarf.

You are entitled to your opinions, but doesn't mean they are winners. I hate the New England Patriots, but even I have to accept the reality that they have been winners for over a decade. And with the HBO show, your opinion is not in the lead.
"Characters are important because of what they do, not who their parents are" I totally agree. Jon Snow would agree too. But for this work of fiction, Jon Snow's parentage may contain secret powers to fight them ice zombies. He would have a tougher time fighting them as a regular nobody, unless he is a mastermind tactician.

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As I already said, GRRM said that the didn't up with the twist until recently, so it couldn't have been referenced then. Unless D&D are somehow incepting ideas into his brain that they can never use in their own series.

GRRM said that so no one would look for the clues in the book for these ~15 characters. He's afraid someone may actually solve it and ruin the twist. Sorry GRRM.

I still wonder if D&D knows, perhaps it was a deal between D&D and GRRM...
GRRM: "You can have this version for the show, but I am differentiating my book with my twins."
D&D: "Fine, but you cannot stop us from hiring actors that may look like twins, or stop us from using subtle obsolete twin clues!"

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

I don't think you have to worry about spoiling anything because people are going to read the book GRRM actually writes and not the completely different one in your head.

Unfortunately you cannot prove I am wrong until TWOW comes.
On the other hand, I provided my foreshadowing evidence from ASOS, TWOIAF and Blood & Fire.

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

As The Wondering Wolf already pointed out, he's clearly referring to a mistake he already corrected without any of your complications that are supposed to be resulting in years between books (which GRRM explains by accurately noting how complex they've gotten).

Even if I discard this from my list of evidence and references...I still noticed you haven't given your two cent on my strongest claims.

Do you have any opinion on GRRM's script for The Bear and the Maiden Fair? Do you have any explanation why Davos is talking to Old Fishfoot with his broken Trident?

Or do you just like picking on the weaker evidences?

3 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It's a common symptom of schizophrenia, which some fans put a lot of effort into mimicking.

That is a bit harsh. I think you owe the people of this forum an apology...whether they craft good theories or bad.

BTW "FictionIsntReal" is a very pessimistic name...why can't you change it to "FictionIsntRealButItsAHobbyForUs"?
 

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On 11/12/2018 at 6:04 PM, The Map Guy said:

I still have more notes I haven't revealed, and I don't think I ever will. But its not because of the criticism of this forum. The only way I would reveal R+L=J&M Part V is if I have direct permission from GRRM...the origin of Nissa Nissa's name. It's a dark little secret that is a little embarrassing, and I would only shed light on it if he says okay. The fandom would never look at ASOIAF the same way again ... that is why I would need his personal approval.

Hey, you know so much, you understand every hint so well, it's uncanny; one could almost assume... But let's get over with this first: I am GRRM. So very nice to meet you, Mr. Map Guy!
You're absolutely right, it makes me uncomfortable, and I cannot imagine how you found out, but yes, that one night back in 1990, we were driving home from a Christmas party in a Nissan Micra. It was the night of the summer solstice, and I was dressed up as a nisse from Danish folkore, with a conical red hat, long white beard, and so on. My companions were German twins, acting students going by the names of Nina and Sabrina, and... well, let's just say, their eyes were not on the road, couldn't possible be given the position of their heads, if you know what I mean. Now suddenly I had to sneeze, then heard a double, mumbled, "Gesuundhait" from below, and tried to remember the German word they had taught me earlier. The moment, I lifted my eyes to the road again, three things happened: I realised, that word, the translation of "to sneeze", was "niesen", pronounced "nissahn". In the corner of my eye, I caught sight of myself in the mirror. And we were colliding with another Nissan Micra, driven by George Lucas.

You can surely imagine my surprise when waking up in a private hospital on Skywalker Ranch, then - and this even you have not yet figured out, so watch out: "spoiler alert" ha ha...: - being told by George Lucas the story of our mother. Indeed: our mother!
If you now think, we were twins, George and I, you're wrong. You forget about Roseanne. - We're triplets, and all three of us have regularly placed hints to be deciphered only by the most devoted fans of our work! You remember that one episode of Roseanne, when Dan's mother is scratching her nose three times? If you zoom in close enough, you can discover three nasal hairs, pointing (savour this: pointing!) at an ashtray with a burned out match inside and, prolonging the line: the fridge; a grease stain on the carpet (sort of politically incorrect, but well, those were the days!); and a sock hanging out from a drawer that is formed like a T-Bone steak (ha! T-Bone steak, who would not immediately think of a Tie Fighter? Sometimes I wonder, how dumb people are, I mean come on, it's so obvious!).

But back to you. Please, would you mind telling me about your "mother"? When you were born, or rather: what they have been telling you about your birth and your parents? How well you know to read my mind, our almost telepathic connection... there must be something behind this surely! Please answer to this private message and - wait, this is not a private message?
Oh, crap.
Guess, I need to change my plans again. Sorry, but with all this information out in the open, I have to start WoW from scratch again. And possibly retract AFfC. And ADwD. They can no longer be considered canonical, really not.
And please, should I decide to change it all now, and none of your insights will appear in the final version of the books - don't pick on me. It's not my fault, nor yours, we understand each other, we belong together, eternally, just let the others read the altered, dumbed down, version, they don't deserve any better!

Edited by Umber Jack

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5 hours ago, Umber Jack said:

Hey, you know so much, you understand every hint so well, it's uncanny; one could almost assume... But let's get over with this first: I am GRRM. So very nice to meet you, Mr. Map Guy!
You're absolutely right, it makes me uncomfortable, and I cannot imagine how you found out, but yes, that one night back in 1990, we were driving home from a Christmas party in a Nissan Micra. It was the night of the summer solstice, and I was dressed up as a nisse from Danish folkore, with a conical red hat, long white beard, and so on. My companions were German twins, acting students going by the names of Nina and Sabrina, and... well, let's just say, their eyes were not on the road, couldn't possible be given the position of their heads, if you know what I mean. Now suddenly I had to sneeze, then heard a double, mumbled, "Gesuundhait" from below, and tried to remember the German word they had taught me earlier. The moment, I lifted my eyes to the road again, three things happened: I realised, that word, the translation of "to sneeze", was "niesen", pronounced "nissahn". In the corner of my eye, I caught sight of myself in the mirror. And we were colliding with another Nissan Micra, driven by George Lucas.

You can surely imagine my surprise when waking up in a private hospital on Skywalker Ranch, then - and this even you have not yet figured out, so watch out: "spoiler alert" ha ha...: - being told by George Lucas the story of our mother. Indeed: our mother!
If you now think, we were twins, George and I, you're wrong. You forget about Roseanne. - We're triplets, and all three of us have regularly placed hints to be deciphered only by the most devoted fans of our work! You remember that one episode of Roseanne, when Dan's mother is scratching her nose three times? If you zoom in close enough, you can discover three nasal hairs, pointing (savour this: pointing!) at an ashtray with a burned out match inside and, prolonging the line: the fridge; a grease stain on the carpet (sort of politically incorrect, but well, those were the days!); and a sock hanging out from a drawer that is formed like a T-Bone steak (ha! T-Bone steak, who would not immediately think of a Tie Fighter? Sometimes I wonder, how dumb people are, I mean come on, it's so obvious!).

But back to you. Please, would you mind telling me about your "mother"? When you were born, or rather: what they have been telling you about your birth and your parents? How well you know to read my mind, our almost telepathic connection... there must be something behind this surely! Please answer to this private message and - wait, this is not a private message?
Oh, crap.
Guess, I need to change my plans again. Sorry, but with all this information out in the open, I have to start WoW from scratch again. And possibly retract AFfC. And ADwD. They can no longer be considered canonical, really not.
And please, should I decide to change it all now, and none of your insights will appear in the final version of the books - don't pick on me. It's not my fault, nor yours, we understand each other, we belong together, eternally, just let the others read the altered, dumbed down, version, they don't deserve any better!

Wait...if you are GRRM, who was the George that messaged me last night telling me to never reveal NissaNissa? Someone is lying...

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Since the new excerpt of Fire and Blood came out talking about the 'ape', I want to be proactive and address how the 'ape' still relates to Star Wars.

At first I thought GRRM was calling Lucas an 'ape' in ADWD. My second thought was maybe this 'ape' was Chewbecca since he looks like an ape.

The Targaryen Princeling and his ape in ADWD:
https://www.moviestillsdb.com/movies/star-wars-i76759/cb70e9

 

The new Fire & Blood excerpt:

Quote

Queen Visenya did not share her sister's love of music and song. She was not without humor, however, and for many years kept her own fool, a hirsute hunchback called Lord Monkeyface whose antics amused her greatly. When he choked to death on a peach pit, the queen acquired an ape and dressed it in Lord Monkeyface's clothing. "The new one is cleverer," she was wont to say.

ASOIAF: Queen Visenya kept an abomination for an amusement. The abomination is choked to death on a peach pit. Visenya promotes and disguises an ape with the abomination's clothing. The ape is cleverer than the abomination.

Key elements are kept the same. Chronology and roles are altered.

GRRM's backward twist: The ape is cleverer than the abomination. The Queen/Princess disguises the ape and herself in clothing for the abomination. After she was caught, the abomination keeps the Queen/Princess for amusement. The Queen/Princess chokes the abomination to death at a "Pit".

Star Wars: Chewbecca is cleverer than Jabba the Hutt. Leia is disguised as bounty hunter with Chewbecca as her prisoner. Leia is caught and kept for amusement for Jabba the Hutt. A peachy Princess Leia chokes Jabba the Hutt to death at the Sarlacc Pit.

Queen Visenya => Dark Sister => Meera => Princess Leia via the Meera-enese Knot
Queen Visenya = Princess Leia in this rearranged story by GRRM...but keeps the same key elements

I know this is probably not true, but if we paired the analogies together ... does this mean Queen Visenya choked the original Lord Monkeyface, so she can have a real pet ape? That's dark.

 

Also, Peach Pit = Piett in Star Wars

Captain Piett was promoted to Admiral after his predecessor was choked to death by Darth Vader (Leia's father). Piett took his predecessor's rank ... therefore taking his "clothing."

 

GRRM is just trolling Star Wars with the 'ape' thing again

Queen Visenya and Lord Monkeyface, the ape:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/32721534766064953/

 

Feel free to disagree. It is all there and not all there at the same time.

Edited by The Map Guy

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