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The Map Guy

R+L=J&M [Part IV] - Is this GRRM's secret message in ADWD in regards to missing out on J&M? Does he call George Lucas an 'ape'?

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On 11/13/2018 at 10:06 PM, The Map Guy said:

What we know:

  • "It’s fairly obvious because it is something that involves a couple of characters, one of whom is dead on the show, but not dead in the books."
  • "They have to grow out of situations"
  • "And with the various three, four characters involved … it all makes sense."

Instead of criticizing my theory, could you provide us with one? Do you have a better guess than Bran, Meera, Jojen & Hodor?

GRRM himself only came up with this twist recently, so I don't any random person to be able to guess it in advance. He's said there are approximately 25 characters dead on the show but alive in the books and the twist involves one of them. So iterate over all 25 of them and I'll assign 1/25 probability to a twist heavily involving them. Your theory doesn't count, because it's about Meera rather than Jojen and the show would not be prevented from doing it.


It's not just symbolic foreshadowing, its also about timing. Ned & Howland were survivors at TOJ. Ned has a mysterious bastard son whose birth fit around the TOJ timing...and so does Meera. And sometimes we forget, Jon has not have his secret reveal too in the books. Both Jon & Meera's secret identities are still up for grabs.

I agree that the degree to which a twist is organic depends upon (among other things) timing. Many people expect Jaime to turn on Cersei as per her "valonqar" prophecy. This works best after Jaime goes through an arc of reconsidering his relationship with Cersei, and would not work in the first book. How would revealing that Meera is Jon's twin be "organic" in TWOW?


You are entitled to your opinions, but doesn't mean they are winners. I hate the New England Patriots, but even I have to accept the reality that they have been winners for over a decade. And with the HBO show, your opinion is not in the lead.

Likewise, I'm not here to argue that the books won't go with R+L=J.


GRRM said that so no one would look for the clues in the book for these ~15 characters. He's afraid someone may actually solve it and ruin the twist. Sorry GRRM.

Once you start distrusting what GRRM says, why believe any of that at all? Why would he be talking about this twist if he were so paranoid about people figuring it out based on such meager clues?


I still wonder if D&D knows, perhaps it was a deal between D&D and GRRM...
GRRM: "You can have this version for the show, but I am differentiating my book with my twins."
D&D: "Fine, but you cannot stop us from hiring actors that may look like twins, or stop us from using subtle obsolete twin clues!"

D&D have gotten very loose with the source material. They are mostly just trying to reach the same destination, hitting the major plot points. Thematic foreshadowing has gotten a distinctly lower priority (many fans of the books were irritated that R+L=J clues were missing from the earlier seasons).


Unfortunately you cannot prove I am wrong until TWOW comes.
On the other hand, I provided my foreshadowing evidence from ASOS, TWOIAF and Blood & Fire.

I trust GRRM's public statements far more than your ability to guess what he's REALLY thinking, so claiming "foreshadowing" for something he claims he only thought up recently just indicates to me that you're seeing patterns that aren't really there.


Even if I discard this from my list of evidence and references...I still noticed you haven't given your two cent on my strongest claims.

Do you have any opinion on GRRM's script for The Bear and the Maiden Fair? Do you have any explanation why Davos is talking to Old Fishfoot with his broken Trident?

Talisa is a character invented for the show, and her fate is very different from the one her book analogue had. She's revealed to be pregnant so that she can later be stabbed in her lower torso, where such an infant would be developing. They refer to the idea of having twins as being "greedy", but any such child inside her is doomed. Doomed specifically at the Twins of House Frey.


Or do you just like picking on the weaker evidences?

I try to pick on the weakest & most obviously wrong claims. In contrast, I try not to waste time arguing in the face of overwhelming evidence.


That is a bit harsh. I think you owe the people of this forum an apology...whether they craft good theories or bad.

I wasn't planning on being so explicit, figuring you could pick up on the analogy.


BTW "FictionIsntReal" is a very pessimistic name...why can't you change it to "FictionIsntRealButItsAHobbyForUs"?

I started using it at a Game of Thrones forum. People can get really worked up over some of these things, and I just like to remind everyone that it's all made up.

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Found some more George Lucas bashing, this time in AWOIAF.


Lucas Lothston aka "George" Lucas "Loathe a Ton" is husband to Lady Falena Stokeworth

Fal ena Stokeworth

Falcon Millenia SW

Millennium Falcon Skywalker

Lucas Lothson is given an insulting story where King Aegon IV made him Hand of the King after letting Aegon have sex with his wife and daughter.


Also there is Lucas Harroway, who is given an insulting story too. He became Hand of the King after he wed his daughter to Maegor.

It is rumored that Lord Lucas allowed his daughter Alys (~Padme) to have sex with many guys to conceive a heir to the throne of King Maegor. Alys, even with all the medical help available in Westeros, gave birth to an abomination and potentially a fraud to the crown (~Luke & Leia). Maegor then executed all of House Harroway until extinction, and threw a unsuspecting Lord Lucas off a tower to his death. Apparently, it was Tyanna of the Tower (which is a subtle reference to Lyanna of the Tower of Joy) poisoning Alys the entire time.

In Star Wars, Padme dies in childbirth to twins, even though she had all the medical help in the galaxy.

Edited by The Map Guy

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It was already established that Leia and Luke were brother and sister in 1983. So GRRM had all the information before the first book came out in 1996.

I think a bigger problem for GRRM is likely the death of Londo Mollari in Babylon 5. Londo has a premonition that G'Kar will strangle him to death which is pretty close to Cersei's Valonquar prophecy. 

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