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When was Theon supposed to go home?


Varysblackfyre321

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Plan was most likely to send him back once Balon died so he could inherit. Then the IT/North (theoretically) has their puppet Lord of Pyke to keep the Ironborn in check for another’s generation. And if anyone contests theon’s right, well he has the backing of the crown so there isn’t a lot anyone can do.

probably only visits during balon’s lifetime

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That might have been the plan but I don't think it would have been all that successful. Theon comes in as a complete outsider, weakened by his years with the Greenlanders and wearing all his painted whore finery that was bought with the gold price, not the iron. He has no ships, no men, no loyalty from any house.

So the first thing that would have happened is ECE would have returned and offed him just as easily as he did Balon. If not, then someone else would do it -- maybe someone who would want to see Asha on the throne.

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7 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

That might have been the plan but I don't think it would have been all that successful. Theon comes in as a complete outsider, weakened by his years with the Greenlanders and wearing all his painted whore finery that was bought with the gold price, not the iron. He has no ships, no men, no loyalty from any house.

 So the first thing that would have happened is ECE would have returned and offed him just as easily as he did Balon. If not, then someone else would do it -- maybe someone who would want to see Asha on the throne.

Only Aeron and Balon showed prejudice against Theon.

With Balon dead Theon would be Lord and Aeron couldn't do anything about it.

Victarion was willing to serve under Euron... He would sure serve Theon.

Theon would have the Harlaw and he coul marry another big bannerman to get more support. Balon was the one that undermined Theon the most. Without him Theon would had a clear path.

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Yah I never got the vibe that Theon was ever supposed to go home while his father lived.   Perhaps that was what hardened Balon's heart against his last surviving son--he understood the ploy of taking an heir and turning him into something not Ironborn.   Theon was groomed in much the way I imagine Ned was fostered--changing or enhancing his political value.  Ned and Cat both warned Robb to keep Theon close.   They knew he wasn't realm ready to take his place among the Ironborn. 

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On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:48 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Only Aeron and Balon showed prejudice against Theon.

Really? Not Asha? Not the men in Lordsport who "gazed on Theon with blank, bovine eyes"? Not the innkeep who "responded without so much as a bow"? Not the stableman who "paid him no mind" but broke into a broad grin as soon as he saw Asha? Not all the lords at the feast when Asha splits his trencher with an axe and "the Great Hall was ringing with laughter, all of it at him"?

Nobody respects Theon. He hasn't done anything to earn their respect.

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:48 AM, Arthur Peres said:

With Balon dead Theon would be Lord and Aeron couldn't do anything about it.

Maybe not Aeron, but Euron sure could. The man who had no trouble killing his own brother, the king, would have no trouble killing his nephew to get the crown.

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:48 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Victarion was willing to serve under Euron... He would sure serve Theon.

Only if he survived, and that is an extremely unlikely prospect with Euron in the picture.

On ‎11‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:48 AM, Arthur Peres said:

Theon would have the Harlaw and he coul marry another big bannerman to get more support. Balon was the one that undermined Theon the most. Without him Theon would had a clear path.

Again, only if Theon survives.

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On 11/3/2018 at 12:29 AM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Dumb question I know but I’m asking it. After Balon’s death? Or could the man hope for his son in his lifetime?

I thought he was to remain a hostage for as long as Balon was alive.  I don't think it was planned out very well.  Robert and Ned didn't have an endgame in mind.  They just took steps to ensure Balon's good behavior.  They should have removed the Greyjoys from power.  Sending Balon to the wall would do no good.  Best idea, give him a one-way ticket to his drowned god.  

Robert's hand was somewhat tied here because how can he punish a rebel when he also rebelled.  Robert's rebellion set forth a lot of bad precedents.  It would have been better to leave Aerys in power.  The rebellion destroyed the inviolability of Targaryen rule and created a bad example.  It is for this reason that I find it hard to condemn Renly.  If one king's rule can be violated, why not his brother's?  It makes sense.  

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Really? Not Asha? Not the men in Lordsport who "gazed on Theon with blank, bovine eyes"? Not the innkeep who "responded without so much as a bow"? Not the stableman who "paid him no mind" but broke into a broad grin as soon as he saw Asha? Not all the lords at the feast when Asha splits his trencher with an axe and "the Great Hall was ringing with laughter, all of it at him"?

Asha is no real threat to Theon. Once he becomes Lord he can just marry her off like Euron did.

Common folk also do not matter much. Once Theon becomes lord behaviour would change. Dagmar one of the best fighters in the island respected Theon even when Balon was undermining him.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Maybe not Aeron, but Euron sure could. The man who had no trouble killing his own brother, the king, would have no trouble killing his nephew to get the crown.

Sure, but in this scenario Theon is not the King of the Iron Island, but the lord of pyke. Theon was also the most cautions of the Greyjoys when it comes to Euron.

 

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Hostages are taken to ensure their father's good behavior, and therefore as long as the Lord's loyalty is in question, the hostage would remain.  As we see with Balon, as soon as Theon was back, he rebelled again. 

I questioned previously on this site whether Balon would have attacked the North even if Theon wasn't sent to him.

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I thought he was to remain a hostage for as long as Balon was alive.  I don't think it was planned out very well.  Robert and Ned didn't have an endgame in mind.  They just took steps to ensure Balon's good behavior.  They should have removed the Greyjoys from power.  Sending Balon to the wall would do no good.  Best idea, give him a one-way ticket to his drowned god.  

Robert's hand was somewhat tied here because how can he punish a rebel when he also rebelled.  Robert's rebellion set forth a lot of bad precedents.  It would have been better to leave Aerys in power.  The rebellion destroyed the inviolability of Targaryen rule and created a bad example.  It is for this reason that I find it hard to condemn Renly.  If one king's rule can be violated, why not his brother's?  It makes sense.  

I think there was also something about the fact that  Greyjoy had sworn fealty to the Targaryens but never to Robert. A technicality, true, but enough for someone like Robert to let Balon off the hook once he did bend the knee.

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20 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

Asha is no real threat to Theon. Once he becomes Lord he can just marry her off like Euron did.

Common folk also do not matter much. Once Theon becomes lord behaviour would change. Dagmar one of the best fighters in the island respected Theon even when Balon was undermining him.

Sure, but in this scenario Theon is not the King of the Iron Island, but the lord of pyke. Theon was also the most cautions of the Greyjoys when it comes to Euron.

 

Asha is mentioned as Balon's possible heir several times because she has proven herself while Theon has not. As Damphair and Theon discuss:

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"I am not 'any man,' I am heir to Pyke and the Iron Islands."

"As to that," his uncle said, "we shall see."

The words were a slap in the face. "We shall see? My brothers are both dead. I am my lord father's only living son."

"Your sister lives."

Asha, he thought, confounded. She was three years older than Theon, yet still … "A woman may inherit only if there is no male heir in the direct line," he insisted loudly. "I will not be cheated of my rights, I warn you."

His uncle grunted. "You warn a servant of the Drowned God, boy? You have forgotten more than you know. And you are a great fool if you think your lord father will ever hand these holy islands over to a Stark. Now be silent. The ride is long enough without your magpie chatterings""

See how Theon is trying to use Greenland law to protect his "rights"? It doesn't work. As Theon himself notes:

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Ironborn captains were proud and willful, and did not go in awe of a man's blood.

So, no, in the eyes of the ironborn, Theon does not automatically become lord just because his father was. In the Old Way, the Seastone Chair did not automatically pass from father to son. All was decided at a kingsmoot.

Theon is probably the most incautious character in the book. That is how he wound up as Reek. I doubt Euron would have any more trouble with Theon than he did with Balon, or Botley, or Blacktyde...

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On 11/3/2018 at 3:55 PM, John Suburbs said:

That might have been the plan but I don't think it would have been all that successful. Theon comes in as a complete outsider, weakened by his years with the Greenlanders and wearing all his painted whore finery that was bought with the gold price, not the iron. He has no ships, no men, no loyalty from any house.

So the first thing that would have happened is ECE would have returned and offed him just as easily as he did Balon. If not, then someone else would do it -- maybe someone who would want to see Asha on the throne.

I agree...it also seems to me that Balon was prepared to attack the North whether Theon came home or not tbh so I really dont know how effective a plan this was even as a deterrent to attack from the ironborn

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

See how Theon is trying to use Greenland law to protect his "rights"? It doesn't work. As Theon himself notes:

It’s interesting to note here how Dagnar calls Theon a Stark-he really doesn’t see Theon as a Greyjoy. 

On 11/3/2018 at 12:55 PM, John Suburbs said:

That might have been the plan but I don't think it would have been all that successful. Theon comes in as a complete outsider, weakened by his years with the Greenlanders and wearing all his painted whore finery that was bought with the gold price, not the iron. He has no ships, no men, no loyalty from any house.

So the first thing that would have happened is ECE would have returned and offed him just as easily as he did Balon. If not, then someone else would do it -- maybe someone who would want to see Asha on the throne.

And he fundamentally does not understand the Ironborn as a people, much less how to rule them. Hell he punishes the men he’s assigned for things that no ironborn captain would. For things Ned Stark would punish them for For example whipping a man for raping a woman at Winterfel. When Victorien(an honorable man in his society), heard of the maestor. he was given was being raped by his men, his reaction was to tell  the maestor to shut up: 

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4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Asha is mentioned as Balon's possible heir several times because she has proven herself while Theon has not. As Damphair and Theon discuss:

 

Balon knows that Theon is a problem for Asha, not the other way around.

“I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

Aeron himself refuses to follow Asha multiple times.

“No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha,” 

"Balon favored Asha, the child of his body, but a woman cannot rule the ironborn"

There also multiple times that she is dicarted by other Ironborns.

“Balon’s sons are dead,” Red Ralf Stonehouse had argued, “and Asha is a woman."

“This girl forgets herself,” snarled Pinchface Jon Myre. “Balon let her believe she was a man.”

“Balon’s sons are dead,” cried Ralf the Limper. “All I see is Balon’s little daughter!”

 

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It appears as though some of the surviving rebel lords that fought for Daemon Blackfyre were able to go to KL to see their sons/daughters that were held as hostages by the Crown to ensure their good behavior, much like Theon.  Eustace Osgrey who fought for Daemon was allowed to visit his daughter in KL for example. So I wonder, if Balon wanted to see Theon would he have been allowed to travel to Winterfell and visit him? Would Robert and/or Ned have allowed it? If they did allow it would Balon or his mother have come to see him? Granted, the Iron Born culture is much more different than the rest of Westeros so it may have been seen as a sign of weakness for Balon to come to Winterfell, but I'm sure it would have meant the world to young Theon.

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You mean go home with his head attached or go home in a pine box.  It depended on Balon.  A rebellious Balon will get two boxes from FedEx containing Theon's remains.  Good boy Balon gets comforted knowing his boy is well-fed and treated like the son of a highborn lord.  There was no time limit to his fostership.  

If you think about it, Theon conducted himself honorably.  He kept his vows and didn't attempt to escape.  It was only when he met his father again that the pull of his family ruined him.  That's the bane of duty isn't it?  Family attachment plays hell with dedication.  That's why the realm as it currently stands is going to be the victim of one screw up after another.  Robb goes south instead of keeping watch in the north.  Roose Bolton was probably right to stick his keister with the pointy end.  Jon betrayed the watch for his sister and I know Bowen was right to stick his keister with a dagger.  Catelyn betrayed the north when he gave Jaime a get free card.  She did this for Sansa.  

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14 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Balon knows that Theon is a problem for Asha, not the other way around.

“I pray god that they killed him, so he cannot stand in Asha’s way.”

Aeron himself refuses to follow Asha multiple times.

“No woman will ever rule the ironborn, not even a woman such as Asha,” 

"Balon favored Asha, the child of his body, but a woman cannot rule the ironborn"

There also multiple times that she is dicarted by other Ironborns.

“Balon’s sons are dead,” Red Ralf Stonehouse had argued, “and Asha is a woman."

“This girl forgets herself,” snarled Pinchface Jon Myre. “Balon let her believe she was a man.”

“Balon’s sons are dead,” cried Ralf the Limper. “All I see is Balon’s little daughter!”

 

Sure, Asha is not a slam-dunk either, but neither is Theon. Balon is simply recognizing the fact that Theon could stand in Asha's way. He still prefers Asha.

Aeron would oppose Asha as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean he would blindly support Theon:

Quote

"For I have heard the god, who says, No godless man may sit my Seastone Chair.'" 

Maybe someday Aeron will view Theon as pious enough, but certainly not now. He probably won't even acknowledge him as a man. Aeron still supports Victarion.

My point isn't that Theon could no way, never ever rule the IIs, but that the mere fact that he is Balon's only surviving son doesn't give him an uncontested right to sit the Seastone Chair. The ironborn do not think this way. This is something that the Starks and other greenlanders don't understand, since their laws do convey this right to eldest sons. So if the Stark plan was to simply wait until Balon dies and then march Theon to Pyke so he can take over, it was a bad plan.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

My point isn't that Theon could no way, never ever rule the IIs, but that the mere fact that he is Balon's only surviving son doesn't give him an uncontested right to sit the Seastone Chair. The ironborn do not think this way. This is something that the Starks and other greenlanders don't understand, since their laws do convey this right to eldest sons. So if the Stark plan was to simply wait until Balon dies and then march Theon to Pyke so he can take over, it was a bad plan.

I don't disagree with this.

But I see Theon as the favorite, without Balon undermining him, Theon has a much easier time becoming Lord of Pyke, he is the front runner, leagues ahead of Asha and Victarion.

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13 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It appears as though some of the surviving rebel lords that fought for Daemon Blackfyre were able to go to KL to see their sons/daughters that were held as hostages by the Crown to ensure their good behavior, much like Theon.  Eustace Osgrey who fought for Daemon was allowed to visit his daughter in KL for example. So I wonder, if Balon wanted to see Theon would he have been allowed to travel to Winterfell and visit him? Would Robert and/or Ned have allowed it? If they did allow it would Balon or his mother have come to see him? Granted, the Iron Born culture is much more different than the rest of Westeros so it may have been seen as a sign of weakness for Balon to come to Winterfell, but I'm sure it would have meant the world to young Theon.

I think Ned and Robert would have no problem letting Balon visit Theon. 

Now that you touched on the subject, it's weird that Theon's mother never showed up to see him. Balon pretty much saw him as good as dead, but Alannys went crazy.

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