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When was Theon supposed to go home?


Varysblackfyre321

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It's a good question. I would agree with other posters that Balon's death would of been a good moment. That said, one would imagine Balon or his wife, appealing to the IT for his release at some juncture. But then we have to consider that Balon considered Theon to now be a Greenlander, and his mother Alanyss, had lost her mind some time ago. 

It's little wonder why Theon felt the way he did. 

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On 11/5/2018 at 12:44 PM, Chris Mormont said:

Hostages are taken to ensure their father's good behavior, and therefore as long as the Lord's loyalty is in question, the hostage would remain.  As we see with Balon, as soon as Theon was back, he rebelled again. 

I questioned previously on this site whether Balon would have attacked the North even if Theon wasn't sent to him.

Balon had written off Theon and was planning on attacking the North anyway, once Robert had died. When Theon first arrives back at Pyke, he marvels at all of the ships and wonders if his father had anticipated his coming and called the banners.

Unfortunately for Theon, that chapter (like several of his early ones) shows that the joke is on him. Balon didn't know that Theon was returning. He had already started plans to attack the North anyway, fully anticipating that this action would result in Theon's execution.

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4 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

I don't disagree with this.

But I see Theon as the favorite, without Balon undermining him, Theon has a much easier time becoming Lord of Pyke, he is the front runner, leagues ahead of Asha and Victarion.

Sorry, disagree. He certainly had no backing when he returned home, and has even less now that he's been castrated and made Ramsay's bitch. Euron would have done for him as easily as he did Balon.

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27 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, disagree. He certainly had no backing when he returned home, and has even less now that he's been castrated and made Ramsay's bitch. Euron would have done for him as easily as he did Balon.

If we are using Reek then I'm forced to agree with you. But Theon from CoK is the front runner.

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32 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

If Theon was a particularly strong candidate why wouldn’t we see people trying to court him? To suck up to the future leader?

He was gone for 8 years, no one knew him or how he was, and most of them didn't knew that he was comming, he also went there incognito without any kind of party or bodyguards. Balon even took the people that knew Theon and send them away, like Dagmer.

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

He was gone for 8 years, no one knew him or how he was, and most of them didn't knew that he was comming, he also went there incognito without any kind of party or bodyguards. Balon even took the people that knew Theon and send them away, like Dagmer.

But after he went to dinner with Balon and the ironborn captains shouldn’t someone be expected to try to kiss up to him if he was seen as the front runner?

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On 11/5/2018 at 5:08 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It’s interesting to note here how Dagnar calls Theon a Stark-he really doesn’t see Theon as a Greyjoy. 

And he fundamentally does not understand the Ironborn as a people, much less how to rule them. Hell he punishes the men he’s assigned for things that no ironborn captain would. For things Ned Stark would punish them for For example whipping a man for raping a woman at Winterfel. When Victorien(an honorable man in his society), heard of the maestor. he was given was being raped by his men, his reaction was to tell  the maestor to shut up: 

sorry not trying to derail but. Victorian's reaction to the measters complaint that some of the ironborn used him like a women was to offer him a 'dagger' "here's how to put a stop to it" when the measter declined to use the knife to protect himself or take revenge against the crew . Victorians reaction was something like then don't complain and get use to it. ( the difference being was kind enough to offer the measter a knife to defend himself rather then for example just tieing him over the rails and offering him to the crew ) 

as for Theon he was destined to return to the iron-islands after his father had died most likely at the head of a army to secure his throne and put down any claimants of a kings-moot. Euron, Asha, the damp-hair. ( no evidence of this just highly doubt that theon would be aloud to return home by himself ) 

Theon Greyjoy was basically a groomed tyrant-to-be. ( i doubt king robert would allow any kings-moot to elect a lord of the iron-island other then theon greyjoy  )

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

 But after he went to dinner with Balon and the ironborn captains shouldn’t someone be expected to try to kiss up to him if he was seen as the front runner?

At this point Balon is already undermining him. Gave him the sea bitch of all ships, and unrelevant task that wouldn't acomplish him nothing, let Asha mocking him in the hall and put Aeron as a nanny to watch him even in small tasks.

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On 11/5/2018 at 6:51 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It appears as though some of the surviving rebel lords that fought for Daemon Blackfyre were able to go to KL to see their sons/daughters that were held as hostages by the Crown to ensure their good behavior, much like Theon.  Eustace Osgrey who fought for Daemon was allowed to visit his daughter in KL for example. So I wonder, if Balon wanted to see Theon would he have been allowed to travel to Winterfell and visit him? Would Robert and/or Ned have allowed it? If they did allow it would Balon or his mother have come to see him? Granted, the Iron Born culture is much more different than the rest of Westeros so it may have been seen as a sign of weakness for Balon to come to Winterfell, but I'm sure it would have meant the world to young Theon.

Allowing Balon to interact with Thein also poses a problem of him being properly assimilated no?  

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On 11/5/2018 at 9:51 PM, Ralphis Baratheon said:

It appears as though some of the surviving rebel lords that fought for Daemon Blackfyre were able to go to KL to see their sons/daughters that were held as hostages by the Crown to ensure their good behavior, much like Theon.  Eustace Osgrey who fought for Daemon was allowed to visit his daughter in KL for example. So I wonder, if Balon wanted to see Theon would he have been allowed to travel to Winterfell and visit him? Would Robert and/or Ned have allowed it? If they did allow it would Balon or his mother have come to see him? Granted, the Iron Born culture is much more different than the rest of Westeros so it may have been seen as a sign of weakness for Balon to come to Winterfell, but I'm sure it would have meant the world to young Theon.

for what tho? balon knew far to well what the starks had turned his son into. "most men would rather deny a hard truth then face it"( or something along that line ) if balon saw before hand what his son had become he would have had no choice but to disavow him this would mean braking the kin-slayer taboo one way or another ( wanting openly for his son to die ) this would have opened up the wound between Victorian and Euron one that would result in a civil war ( those loyal to Victorian against those loyal to Euron )

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On 11/9/2018 at 11:18 AM, oakbloodthesap said:

for what tho? balon knew far to well what the starks had turned his son into. "most men would rather deny a hard truth then face it"( or something along that line ) if balon saw before hand what his son had become he would have had no choice but to disavow him this would mean braking the kin-slayer taboo one way or another ( wanting openly for his son to die ) this would have opened up the wound between Victorian and Euron one that would result in a civil war ( those loyal to Victorian against those loyal to Euron )

Meh, I mean if Theon chooses to fight, I’m sure if he fell in battle in pursuit of his claim, Balon wouldn’t be seen as a kin-slayer by his followers. I could see Victorien however not honoring Balon publicly dubbing his daughter to be the one to he wishes to succeed him because Asha is a woman.

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On 11/9/2018 at 4:21 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Allowing Balon to interact with Thein also poses a problem of him being properly assimilated no?  

Theon would need some IB culture in him if he was going to be their lord when he returned, he was also allowed to still workship the drowed god.. At the very least his mom should be able to visit him, considering she went mad for depression, is surprising that she never did.

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Like others have said, I think Theon would have only been sent home upon his father's death. Even if Balon had lived to a ripe old age, Theon would have been bound to remain with the Starks. I do wonder if he would've been able to return to visit, at least, if Ned died and Robb took over as Lord of Winterfell, if he could've persuaded that from his friend and foster brother. Doubtful, but interesting to think about.

In any case, I think Theon assumes rule over the Iron Islands, even if most of the ironborn mock him as a greenlander behind his back. Victarion serves him faithfully, Aeron has no choice in the matter, Asha likely doesn't bridle too much (although will likely be seen as the real power behind the throne by the masses), but Euron would probably easily assassinate Theon and take over as readily as he did in the real world.

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On 11/5/2018 at 10:17 AM, Widowmaker 811 said:

I thought he was to remain a hostage for as long as Balon was alive.  I don't think it was planned out very well.  Robert and Ned didn't have an endgame in mind.  They just took steps to ensure Balon's good behavior.  They should have removed the Greyjoys from power.  Sending Balon to the wall would do no good.  Best idea, give him a one-way ticket to his drowned god.  

Robert's hand was somewhat tied here because how can he punish a rebel when he also rebelled.  Robert's rebellion set forth a lot of bad precedents.  It would have been better to leave Aerys in power.  The rebellion destroyed the inviolability of Targaryen rule and created a bad example.  It is for this reason that I find it hard to condemn Renly.  If one king's rule can be violated, why not his brother's?  It makes sense.  

Well Robert rebelled to save his life and Ned's. Balon rebelled for independence. 

Regardless of whether RR set a bad precedent, Balon's decisions are not comparable to Robert's. 

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On 11/18/2018 at 12:32 PM, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well Robert rebelled to save his life and Ned's. Balon rebelled for independence. 

Regardless of whether RR set a bad precedent, Balon's decisions are not comparable to Robert's. 

Robert rebelled to save his life. That did not necessitate in him proclaiming he would be king. That was due to hatred of the Targyens, and I would say in part for Robert’s ego. Balon was not entirely without justification thinking the iron islands are not bound to serve Robert once the Targyens were exiled.    Neither Balon or Robert chose to become king came out some sense of self-preservation. Like most men we see take up the mantle of King in the series, they could opt not to try for a crown, but they don’t because they simply don’t want to. I give Renly praise for not masking his power play as somehow being for some greater good and whining he had to become king because blah, blah, blah like his brothers. So refreshing. 

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5 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Robert rebelled to save his life. That did not necessitate in him proclaiming he would be king. That was due to hatred of the Targyens, and I would say in part for Robert’s ego. Balon was not entirely without justification thinking the iron islands are not bound to serve Robert once the Targyens were exiled.    Neither Balon or Robert chose to become king came out some sense of self-preservation. Like most men we see take up the mantle of King in the series, they could opt not to try for a crown, but they don’t because they simply don’t want to. I give Renly praise for not masking his power play as somehow being for some greater good and whining he had to become king because blah, blah, blah like his brothers. So refreshing. 

Robert not opting for the crown means Viserys is most likely going to be king, so yes he very much did take the crown to preserve his life. That was the whole reason why he rebelled.

There are still Targaryen supporters well after he became king. It would be only be worse if the Targs were still alive and on the throne.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Robert not opting for the crown means Viserys is most likely going to be king, so yes he very much did take the crown to preserve his life. That was the whole reason why he rebelled.

There are still Targaryen supporters well after he became king. It would be only be worse if the Targs were still alive and on the throne.

Viserys would be boy-King of 6 years old.   Robert and the rebels would have the opportunity to shape and mold to him to their liking. Wouldnt be that hard. At that age, with the right nourishment he by his majority would likely feel more close to the Rebels did than his insane father. Robert rebelled to save his life. He did not prounouce himself king to do so, and if there was thought of one of the rebel lords having to usurp the Targyens for them to truly be safe, such talk would likely discussed, agreed upon, and pronounced well before the battle of the trident. Robert wanted to be king-he did not need become King. 

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Viserys would be boy-King of 6 years old.   Robert and the rebels would have the opportunity to shape and mold to him to their liking. Wouldnt be that hard. At that age, with the right nourishment he by his majority would likely feel more close to the Rebels did than his insane father. Robert rebelled to save his life. He did not prounouce himself king to do so, and if there was thought of one of the rebel lords having to usurp the Targyens for them to truly be safe, such talk would likely discussed, agreed upon, and pronounced well before the battle of the trident. Robert wanted to be king-he did not need become King. 

Why should they risk it ? Viserys acording to Barristan showed signs of being mad since early years.

Rhaegar was mad, Aerys was madder and Viserys could be the maddest of them all.

Robert needed the throne to be secure, otherwise, Viserys could very well go after him later on.

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