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Bloodraven- mystery?


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8 minutes ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The Bridge of Dreams really does seem like the "gods" did not like the outcome of the first run through, so they just rolled back time and tried again and the second time got the outcome they wanted.  For the people who think there is a single timeline that cannot be altered, with no time travel allowed, how can you explain this event?  Unless the fog has the ability to cause hallucinations or mass delusion.

The time loop takes place on a river, and Bloodraven says "For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction."  Bloodraven is wrong, the flow is not always in the same direction, Tyrion went in a loop.

Bloodraven doesn't practice what he preaches.

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3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Coldhands is Bran's monster, as in a monster Bran made.

"A monster," Bran said.
The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."
"Yours," the raven echoed, from his shoulder. Outside the door, the ravens in the trees took up the cry, until the night wood echoed to the murderer's song of "Yours, yours, yours."

A  possessive  does not equal creation. That is a bit of a stretch.  

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death."
She is asking him to please not raise the dead, which presupposes that it is an option.

she is saying don't bother. It will not work. It is not supposing an option. If she was, there would be a warning.  Shortening the quote to favor your opinion is lazy at best.  
“Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”
“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”
“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”
“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”
 

I sounds quite different when it isn't cherry picked

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Also, for Bran to have raised Coldhands, he must have done it in the past.

Yes, but all the other leaps have to work for this to work. That makes the supposition questionable at best

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"Try" is the operative word there.  Bran is the only one we have seen be successful.  Varamyr only did it for an instant and was driven out, and Varamyr was the most skilled skinchanger who was a old grizzled man with a lifetime of skinchanging practice and he failed, Bran is 10 years old and did it by instinct successfully on his first try--Bran is clearly the most powerful skinchanger by a long shot. 

Many have been successful. So much that among skinchangers it is known as an abomination.  Also, Varamyr was moments away from death and weak. so that is a poor example. 

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I think you are overstating the case.  Any greenseer can try to change the past, but none have been successful so far, but again, Bran is special.  Ned heard him and Theon heard him, and he communicated with Jon through the weirwood in book 2 and touched him in that weirwood dream even though Bran did not enter the network until book 5.

I did not overstate it. Brynden did:
 “A man must know how to look before he can hope to see,” said Lord Brynden. “Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. “The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.
“But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”
“He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

The highlighted parts are important as they literally explain it all.
As for Jon and Theon, they are not in the past. Bran is talking to them "realtime" 
And Bran did "enter the network." 
In book 2
in the crypt
It was when he opened his third eye. 

 

3 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

"A leaf drifted down from above, brushed his brow, and landed in the pool. It floated on the water, red, five-fingered, like a bloody hand. "… Bran," the tree murmured.

They know. The gods know. They saw what I did. And for one strange moment it seemed as if it were Bran's face carved into the pale trunk of the weirwood, staring down at him with eyes red and wise and sad. Bran's ghost, he thought, but that was madness. Why should Bran want to haunt him? He had been fond of the boy, had never done him any harm. It was not Bran we killed. It was not Rickon. They were only miller's sons, from the mill by the Acorn Water."

Bran had just opened his third eye.  He says so to Jon. 

“When he closed his eyes, he dreamed of direwolves.

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.

Jon?

The call came from behind him, softer than a whisper, but strong too. Can a shout be silent? He turned his head, searching for his brother, for a glimpse of a lean grey shape moving beneath the trees, but there was nothing, only . . .A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.”
There was a weirwood involved. The whole weirnet 

7 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

 Why would he appear to Jon as a weirwood, and what is the meaning of the accelerated growth, if not to show a time distortion?  And why was Bran associated with death?


Jon is in a wolf dream. Wolf dreams are level 2 of greensight, the first being green dreams. Bran as a weirwood is part of what Ghost sees and what Jon sees. the weirwood. This being a magical dream shared by 3 magical beings. Ghost sees a literal Weirwood, but Jon and also ghost see bran, speaking to the pair across the wall via weirnet. That is why Bran would appear as a weirwood.
Bran smells of death and darkness because he is in the crypts at winterfell, literally in the dark and surrounded by death. 

 

8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The CoTF are servitors and food for the weirwood

That is a base description of blood sacrifices But technically correct

 

8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

 any and all powers they have are granted to them by the weirwood

 
Sort of. It probably has to do with bloodlines and old god worship, same as Bran and Bloodraven.  Part of the pact was the first men taking the old gods of the ctof as their own.  

 

8 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

  The trees are their gods, not the other way around.

Don't forget all the greenseers who die and have their "souls" absorbed into the weirnet. 
 

 

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6 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

1) if a lion exclusively enjoyed the suffering of sentient creatures, and rewarded and psychically manipulated humans to serve it, -then the lion is evil and it is demonic. 

 

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2) Weak bait.  Here is another made up reference, in George's And Seven Times Never Kill Man,   The pyramid tricks the Steel Angels into bringing it into their compound and then gets them to kill their children and destroy their winter stores of food because it has made them think there will be a summer that never ends.

  3) Lya was a very strong telepath, and the fungus seemed to be particularly interested in absorbing her telepathy talent.  This is what I think the weirwood wants with Bran.

4)  *the penis

 

1)   we are evil and demonic like that from the cows' perspective.  So that's a vegetarian reading of the text.  But wait, things are looking up as we go!

2)  I'm not saying you're making stuff up.  I'm saying it'd be really funny if you were because I wouldn't know.   However, that Steel Angels bit WAS convincing, and I'm sure it's real.  And it led directly to me solving the series as follows, so thanks(!):

3)   This is how the series ends:  (Spoilers)- - -The trees want Bran's brain to amplify the madness they're sending into the westerosi population, so Bran can't stay there.  But Bran can't allow himself to be "rescued" by the 3 eyed crow either because the Others want his brain too, to make him their own tipping point guy by plugging him into Winter's heart so he can swallow the sun like Fenris of Ragnarok, bringing about a Thimble Winter that will freeze out the evil trees....but it also freezes out humanity at the same time!   

Bran foresees this, can't accept it, strains real hard like he's psychically constipated until he succeeds at changing the timeline in some small way * (at first) that gives humanity a chance.

He wargs a dragon and flies right past the Others to systematically burn all the weirwoods.  Daenerys catches on when she sees the pattern and joins in, but Jon doesn't because those are poppa's trees, so they fight the predestined battle of Ice and Fire armies squaring off (from the prophetic vision).   Bran has to let Jon die for the greater good.  Arya is pesky and has the strength to quit the weir cold turkey.  But then she dies anyway. 

* The small initial change Bran made to history:  He planted the impossible lemon tree Daenerys remembers from her childhood- - planted it in her mind as a false memory.  This shared lemon fixation is what keeps Danny from killing Sansa when they meet and Sansa offers her a lemon cake.  (It's like when Batman discovered he and Superman both had a Martha in their lives).  Sansa then lives long enough to broker peace between Danny and Aegon, her new boyfriend.   This prevents Danny from dying in a Targ civil war, which means she's available to make all the difference in the north by burning the weirs.

4)  indeed

 

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10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

A  possessive does not equal creation. That is a bit of a stretch.

The phrase "your monster" is used three times in the books

Arya's wolf, "You Starks are as unnatural as those wolves of yours. I've not forgotten how your monster savaged me."

Gilly's baby, "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster."

Bran's Coldhands  "The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

The baby is Gilly's creation, the direwolf is a warg/pet, and Coldhands is?  Bran's warg/pet/creation.  All imply ownership and/or creation.  If Bran did change Coldhands then it fits. 

To me, the cold hard stare down and the ominous raven chorus implies something more than "I will be your escort to Bloodraven's cave, Bran."

 

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past.
“But,” said Bran, “he heard me.”
“He heard a whisper on the wind, a rustling amongst the leaves. You cannot speak to him, try as you might. I know. I have my own ghosts, Bran. A brother that I loved, a brother that I hated, a woman I desired. Through the trees, I see them still, but no word of mine has ever reached them. The past remains the past. We can learn from it, but we cannot change it.”

How does prophecy and greendreams fit into your understanding?  To a weirwood, the future has already happened, and the weirwood or a greenseer plugged into it can give a human in the past a of vision of that future, thus changing their behavior, is this not changing the past?  Unless the visions of the future alter the course of events what was the purpose of the visions?  And the Bridge of Dreams, was clearly someone tampering with the timeline to achieve a desired outcome.  I think that is what the weirwoods are doing with prophecy and greendreams, steering the course of human events for their own ends.

 

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

she is saying don't bother. It will not work. It is not supposing an option. If she was, there would be a warning.  Shortening the quote to favor your opinion is lazy at best.  
“Bran’s throat was very dry. He swallowed. “Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He’s not dead, he’s not, I saw him, he’s back at Winterfell, he’s still alive.”
“No,” said Leaf. “He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death.”
“I saw him.” Bran could feel rough wood pressing against one cheek. “He was cleaning Ice.”
“You saw what you wished to see. Your heart yearns for your father and your home, so that is what you saw.”
 

I sounds quite different when it isn't cherry picked 

I don't trust anything Leaf is telling Bran, I think she is lying about how many CoTF are left, how the network works, and she is trying to enslave Bran, and she probably fed him Jojen and Meera.  I only quoted part of what she said because I thought she accidentally admitted something she wasn't supposed to. 

 

Meera said, "You speak the Common Tongue now."
"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."
 
Leaf says that she was a deep-cover CoTF spy for 200 years (what was her disguise?  Reminds me of Jaqen and the faceless men), and learned the common tongue in preparation for Bran's arrival, that Bran coming to the cave has been planned for hundreds of years.  Deception is her craft.  Bloodraven was also a spymaster.  In the series, what are we told about trusting spymasters?
 

I think she and Bloodraven are trying to prevent Bran from becoming the Great Other and instead get him to work for them, part of this is trying to make him believe he has limitations that he doesn't actually have--that he can't change the past and he can't raise the dead.   The winged wolf bound to the earth with stone chains that the 3 eyed crow tries to peck through. 

But in the weirwood network, past, present, future are the same, and in a very real sense Ned is still alive.  That if you visit the past through the weirwood network, you are not seeing a recording of the past (maybe that is all Bloodraven could do), you are actually there in the past, and in that past he is still alive, and that if you were a powerful enough being you could interact with him.  Again with the Bridge of Dreams, the gods learned new information--the secret identities of Tyrion and Young Griff--and rewound time to try for a different outcome, they altered the course of the river of time, and attacked them with stone men minions.  The gods used information from the future to alter the past.

 

With regard to skinchanging humans, Varamyr showed us that, in the series, the essence of a human is a disembodied soul of some sort, that does not depend on the body, and Varamyr being injured did not weaken the strength of his soul.  His soul tried to occupy Thistle, was rejected, floated outside of his body, went into the weirwood briefly, then went out and found One Eye and occupied him, Varamyr's soul was not described as being diminished in the way that his body was.  It showed us that the disembodied soul could go into and out of the weirwood, thus a soul could go into the weirwood at one point in time, exit the weirwood at another point in time, and then occupy a body--thus achieve time travel.  All it takes is a very powerful warg.

I think this sets up the conditions for Bran to jump out of his body permanently.  If and when he finds out they killed Meera he is going to go completely apeshit and swear a bloody vengeance against the trees.

 

10 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Sort of. It probably has to do with bloodlines and old god worship,

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Varamyr could see the weirwood's red eyes staring down at him from the white trunk. The gods are weighing me. A shiver went through him. He had done bad things, terrible things. He had stolen, killed, raped. He had gorged on human flesh and lapped the blood of dying men as it gushed red and hot from their torn throats. He had stalked foes through the woods, fallen on them as they slept, clawed their entrails from their bellies and scattered them across the muddy earth. How sweet their meat had tasted. "That was the beast, not me," he said in a hoarse whisper. "That was the gift you gave me."

All the horrible stuff Varamyr did was only utilizing the gift the weirwood gave him in the way they wanted him to.

Varamyr also points out that none of his children were skinchangers, so either it is a recessive trait and none of the mothers carried the gene, or skinchanging is granted by the gods, or both.  Bran, Jon, and Dany all had to have dreams where something opened their third eye or got them to fly before their powers could be realized.

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6 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

 He planted the impossible lemon tree Daenerys remembers from her childhood- - planted it in her mind as a false memory.  This shared lemon fixation is what keeps Danny from killing Sansa when they meet and Sansa offers her a lemon cake. 

Lemons are in the category of fruit called "hesperidium" from the Hesperides and their golden apples. Hesperus means "evenstar" and refers to Venus as seen in the evening.  Venus in the morning is Phosphorus, Lightbringer, Lucifer.  Hesperus/Phosphorus are sometimes combined into one mythological character, so there is something going on with lemons and Lightbringer symbolism, but I haven't figured it out. 

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On 11/4/2018 at 5:40 PM, chrisdaw said:

He probably skinchanged the boar that killed Robert. He skinchanged Mandon Moore to try and kill Tyrion. He was responsible for the Bridge of Dreams, where he attempted to kill Faegon. He skinchanged grayscaled rats to kill Serra, probably attempting to kill Faegon then too, an attempt that killed two-thousand others.

I'm not sure whether you sincerely believe that or whether you are mucking about.

On 11/4/2018 at 10:34 PM, By Odin's Beard said:

The Bridge of Dreams really does seem like the "gods" did not like the outcome of the first run through, so they just rolled back time and tried again and the second time got the outcome they wanted. 

Tyrion was supposed to have met the Shrouded Lord.  Tyrion made the Lord laugh thereby setting Tyrion free.  Except martin decided that wasn't the way he wanted to go, so he took most of the scene out. My assumption is that the chapter had a few editing mishaps.

Keep in mind that if the link I supply  from martin's not a blog works it is from 2007. If the link does not work do a copy paste.

https://web.archive.org/web/20161014221040/http://grrm.livejournal.com/22998.html?thread=2707158#t2707158

 

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"When that happens, maybe my heirs will decide to publish a book of fragments and deleted chapters, and you'll all get to read about Tyrion's meeting with the Shrouded Lord. It's a swell, spooky, evocative chapter, but you won't read it in DANCE. It took me down a road I decided I did not want to travel, so I went back and ripped it out."

 

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4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I'm not sure whether you sincerely believe that or whether you are mucking about.

Mandon Moore doesn't get a lot of text time.

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"Your Grace," Ser Boros said when they were ushered inside by another of the Kingsguard, Ser Mandon of the curiously dead face, "I've brought the girl."

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In the chilly white raiment of the Kingsguard, Ser Mandon Moore looked like a corpse in a shroud.

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"Her Grace does not wish to be disturbed," Ser Mandon repeated slowly, as if Tyrion were a dullard who had not heard him the first time.

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Jaime had once told him that Moore was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard—excepting himself, always—because his face gave no hint as what he might do next.

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"I know the man." Ser Mandon's eyes were pale grey, oddly flat and lifeless.

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At the ram his big red reared but the black stallion leapt the obstacle smoothly and Ser Mandon flashed past him, death in snow-white silk.

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Ser Mandon. He saw the dead empty eyes, the reaching hand, the green fire shining against the white enamel plate.

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Jaime had always said that Ser Mandon was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard, because his dead empty eyes gave no hint to his intentions.

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Bronn had turned up all he could on Ser Mandon, but no doubt Varys knew a deal more . . . should he choose to share it. "The man seems to have been quite friendless," Tyrion said carefully.

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"Sadly," said Varys, "oh, sadly. You might find some kin if you turned over enough stones back in the Vale, but here . . . Lord Arryn brought him to King's Landing and Robert gave him his white cloak, but neither loved him much, I fear. Nor was he the sort the smallfolk cheer in tourneys, despite his undoubted prowess. Why, even his brothers of the Kingsguard never warmed to him. Ser Barristan was once heard to say that the man had no friend but his sword and no life but duty . . . but you know, I do not think Selmy meant it altogether as praise. Which is queer when you consider it, is it not? Those are the very qualities we seek in our Kingsguard, it could be said—men who live not for themselves, but for their king. By those lights, our brave Ser Mandon was the perfect white knight. And he died as a knight of the Kingsguard ought, with sword in hand, defending one of the king's own blood." The eunuch gave him a slimy smile and watched him sharply.

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"He had eyes like a fish and he wore a white cloak. What else do you need to know?"

But what there is does seem to have a simple theme to it. Mandon Moore died long before AGOT, a shell for Bloodraven running most the time in auto pilot mode.

And Bloodraven skinchanges rats, by the thousands. He did it when he was Hand to try to end the spread of the Spring Sickness.

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"Kingslanders have a certain way of speaking." The septon took a gulp of wine, sloshed it about his mouth, swallowed, and sighed with pleasure. "I have served there many years, attending our High Septon in the Great Sept of Baelor." He sighed. "You would not know the city since the spring. The fires changed it. A quarter of the houses gone, and another quarter empty. The rats are gone as well. That is the queerest thing. I never thought to see a city without rats."

Dunk had heard that, too. "Were you there during the Great Spring Sickness?"

 

He uses rats for his eyes and he is thus symbolised by the rat. The Rat Cook and Blood and Cheese are among his foreshadowings. The Spring Sickness gave him the idea of how to weaponise rats, and he used it to try and kill Faegon, but only managed Serra and a couple other thousand.

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44 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

Mandon Moore doesn't get a lot of text time.

But what there is does seem to have a simple theme to it. Mandon Moore died long before AGOT, a shell for Bloodraven running most the time in auto pilot mode.

And Bloodraven skinchanges rats, by the thousands. He did it when he was Hand to try to end the spread of the Spring Sickness.

He uses rats for his eyes and he is thus symbolised by the rat. The Rat Cook and Blood and Cheese are among his foreshadowings. The Spring Sickness gave him the idea of how to weaponise rats, and he used it to try and kill Faegon, but only managed Serra and a couple other thousand.

If you believe I will accept you believe. I do not agree but I accept you believe Bloodraven is responsible for all the below that you espoused.

On 11/4/2018 at 5:40 PM, chrisdaw said:

He probably skinchanged the boar that killed Robert. He skinchanged Mandon Moore to try and kill Tyrion. He was responsible for the Bridge of Dreams, where he attempted to kill Faegon. He skinchanged grayscaled rats to kill Serra, probably attempting to kill Faegon then too, an attempt that killed two-thousand others.

 

 

 

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On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

I think that is what the weirwoods are doing with prophecy and greendreams, steering the course of human events for their own ends

If the trees' consciousness is outside of linear time, they may be constantly psi broadcasting all of their memories of the whole timeline, like a streaming service!  Not just one 'Vision' deviously aimed at you, but everything they've got, all the age rings in their psychic treetrunk screaming in your ear at once.  OUR minds are the ones pulling specific visions out of all that noise based on what's relevant to us, like rivulets drawn from a vast psi ocean, just the part that relates to our... bloodlines. 

Blood Magic was what the woods witches used to read fortunes, not holding up a divining rod of weirwood.  Blood, taken from the subject.  Then, the blood- drinking weir library of future knowledge can be turned to the right page. 

When the trees' psychic radar pings our infantile minds, our thoughts may mark us, define us, showing the weirs a spectral analysis of us as petty things who live in the now, but we aspire to ideals, a more timeless greatness that the trees can sort of relate to.  We yearn for this, that, and the other.  And these thoughts bookmark us within the Dewey decimal system the weirs use.  We then receive the most relevant Vision. 

 I think Will matters in this subconscious interaction.   Thoros mainly brought a great Will to that burial ritual that raised Dondarion.  This death is so greatly wrong, he broadcast to the world with his suddenly incredibly congruent psyche.  And the listening magic field answered, Would This then be more right?  And Dondarion breathed.   Jaime dreamed his psi- definition into that treestump, and got a vision that reinforced his specific aspirations to be more than bottom- dweller kingslayer in the muck, but a flash of the creature of integrity he could yet be, an honorable death for humanity's truer cause of surviving as more than animals, with the return of valor and all that's been absent from the hollow knighthood of his age. 

So the powers that are 'granted' to someone with a darkened psyche- - like Euron , or an Other- - would skew toward 'evil' but would mostly be a reflection of their own psyches, and not the weirs' necessarily.  We should always leave room for the trees to be fully devious I suppose, because that's a scary and fun worry to leave hanging over the readers' heads.  But the birth of tree consciousness would most likely be Nature Neutral in its default mindset.  And then specific Tree Drivers could have been responsible for going off the rails by infusing the weirnet with their malice to give us history's most human-esque devious events like natural disasters that break Dorne's arm.   

That's my take on the weirs getting involved in human affairs.  A bunch of white harbor fools blooded up the trees for long enough that the great Shamu whale of weir consciousness swam over closer to us and began paying closer attention to our affairs not because it bore us any great malice but simply because we were making ourselves more relevant to It by feeding It, inviting It in like a vampire into our homes, literally planting it in our godswoods. 

Now that the original pact makers are dust, forgotten on our side, It continues to feed with us unaware of why we're being mauled by this dangerous pitbull pet.   There's no meeting of the minds.  The trees are too Other for us that we must meet them only in a dream state, and that doesn't let us parlay very well.  Bran and Daenerys have a good track record with sleepwalking to good effect, though.  They may be able to meet with the weir consciousness and hammer out a new pact.

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10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

The phrase "your monster" is used three times in the books

Are you just plugging words into the asoiaf search engine? Because you literally are proving my point. Here is how: 

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Arya's wolf, "You Starks are as unnatural as those wolves of yours. I've not forgotten how your monster savaged me."

This was in clash. And it was Joff talking to Sansa. Arya wasn't even there. So, it was not a creation, and only ownership by family relation.  this proves my point. But let's do another for good measure. 

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Gilly's baby, "If she knew, she would have taken the boy away from us. Dalla's boy, not your monster."

 This was in Dance and it was Val talking to Jon. Jon did not create Gilly's baby. He didn't have possession of it either. But he was responsible for the switch.  Again, showing that "your" does not mean creation. 

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Bran's Coldhands  "The ranger looked at Bran as if the rest of them did not exist. "Your monster, Brandon Stark."

The baby is Gilly's creation, the direwolf is a warg/pet, and Coldhands is?  Bran's warg/pet/creation.  All imply ownership and/or creation.  If Bran did change Coldhands then it fits. 

So, you also don't get get to walk back on an argument. You said "your monster" meant creation. I said possession is not creation. If you realized you were wrong after you post a reply, just admit it.  

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

To me, the cold hard stare down and the ominous raven chorus implies something more than "I will be your escort to Bloodraven's cave, Bran."

It very well may mean something more. But Time traveling bran is not that something. 

10 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

How does prophecy and greendreams fit into your understanding?  

Both are flawed and less than accurate, but makes for good stories 

22 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

  To a weirwood, the future has already happened, and the weirwood or a greenseer plugged into it can give a human in the past a of vision of that future, thus changing their behavior, is this not changing the past? 

I am not too sure about that. I seem to remember reading something about seeing a possible future, what may happen.  
look at it this way. If that was possible, There would be no story. Bran could time travel, warn everyone about all the dangers ahead. Save his mom, dad, sisters, brothers and their wolves. Warn people about the others and generally unravel everything that was written

22 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

Unless the visions of the future alter the course of events what was the purpose of the visions? 

To keep knowledge of the past. The children were always able to see the others coming, and easily remember how to fight them. It wasn't until men came, cut down the face trees and killed off most of the children that the others became a problem. 

22 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

  And the Bridge of Dreams, was clearly someone tampering with the timeline to achieve a desired outcome.  I think that is what the weirwoods are doing with prophecy and greendreams, steering the course of human events for their own ends.

Rip currents =/= time travel 

22 hours ago, By Odin's Beard said:

I don't trust anything Leaf is telling Bran, I think she is lying about how many CoTF are left, how the network works, and she is trying to enslave Bran, and she probably fed him Jojen and Meera.  I only quoted part of what she said because I thought she accidentally admitted something she wasn't supposed to. 

What in the books leads you to think this? 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

Meera said, "You speak the Common Tongue now."

"For him. The Bran boy. I was born in the time of the dragon, and for two hundred years I walked the world of men, to watch and listen and learn. I might be walking still, but my legs were sore and my heart was weary, so I turned my feet for home."
 
Leaf says that she was a deep-cover CoTF spy for 200 years (what was her disguise?  Reminds me of Jaqen and the faceless men), and learned the common tongue in preparation for Bran's arrival, that Bran coming to the cave has been planned for hundreds of years.  Deception is her craft.  Bloodraven was also a spymaster.  In the series, what are we told about trusting spymasters?

She very literally does not say any of that crap.  She says she walked the world of men, observed and learned, and then got homesick and returned to the cave. 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

  Bloodraven was also a spymaster.  In the series, what are we told about trusting spymasters?

We are told that if King Aerys had trusted and listened to his spymaster, he would still be alive. So, there's that.  

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

I think she and Bloodraven are trying to prevent Bran from becoming the Great Other and instead get him to work for them, part of this is trying to make him believe he has limitations that he doesn't actually have--that he can't change the past and he can't raise the dead.   The winged wolf bound to the earth with stone chains that the 3 eyed crow tries to peck through. 

getting someone to work with you by teaching them how to harness and hone their powers, but then limiting said power by just saying "you can't do that" makes no sense at all.  Also, Bloodraven is the 3EC.  

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

But in the weirwood network, past, present, future are the same, and in a very real sense Ned is still alive. 

True

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

 That if you visit the past through the weirwood network, you are not seeing a recording of the past (maybe that is all Bloodraven could do), you are actually there in the past, and in that past he is still alive, and that if you were a powerful enough being you could interact with him.  

Except you can't. Bloodraven has the same experience that bran does. He tries to talk to his brother and lover and just like when bran tried, all they heard was wind. 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

But in the weirwood network, past, present, future are the same, and in a very real sense Ned is still alive.  That if you visit the past through the weirwood network, you are not seeing a recording of the past (maybe that is all Bloodraven could do), you are actually there in the past, and in that past he is still alive, and that if you were a powerful enough being you could interact with him. 

The book says otherwise but when has anything in the book mattered when it comes to theories here? 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

 Again with the Bridge of Dreams, the gods learned new information--the secret identities of Tyrion and Young Griff--and rewound time to try for a different outcome, they altered the course of the river of time, and attacked them with stone men minions.  The gods used information from the future to alter the past.

Why would the gods need to learn new info if they can see everything in the past or future? 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

  His soul tried to occupy Thistle, was rejected, floated outside of his body, went into the weirwood briefly, then went out and found One Eye and occupied him, Varamyr's soul was not described as being diminished in the way that his body was.  It showed us that the disembodied soul could go into and out of the weirwood, thus a soul could go into the weirwood at one point in time, exit the weirwood at another point in time, and then occupy a body--thus achieve time travel.  All it takes is a very powerful warg.

All that showed us is that a skinchanger's soul went through several bodies that a skinchanger's soul could. The time travel is your hope. Nothing more. 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

I think this sets up the conditions for Bran to jump out of his body permanently.  If and when he finds out they killed Meera he is going to go completely apeshit and swear a bloody vengeance against the trees.

Naw, he never leaves the tree, and after the other's defeat he watches his family and everyone he ever loved from their births to their deaths from the comfort of his tree, outliving all of them while waiting for the next last greenseer . 

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

All the horrible stuff Varamyr did was only utilizing the gift the weirwood gave him in the way they wanted him to.

Not really. He abused his power, he went against his masters teaching and he would rather be an abomination rather than die. We shouldn't trust his rationalizations

On 11/5/2018 at 8:34 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

Varamyr also points out that none of his children were skinchangers, so either it is a recessive trait and none of the mothers carried the gene, or skinchanging is granted by the gods, or both.  Bran, Jon, and Dany all had to have dreams where something opened their third eye or got them to fly before their powers could be realized.

There is a history of skinchangers in the stark line in the books.  It is partially genetic.  

 

 

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21 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Are you just plugging words into the asoiaf search engine? Because you literally are proving my point. Here is how: 

This was in clash. And it was Joff talking to Sansa. Arya wasn't even there. So, it was not a creation, and only ownership by family relation.  this proves my point. But let's do another for good measure. 

 This was in Dance and it was Val talking to Jon. Jon did not create Gilly's baby. He didn't have possession of it either. But he was responsible for the switch.  Again, showing that "your" does not mean creation. 

So, you also don't get get to walk back on an argument. You said "your monster" meant creation. I said possession is not creation. If you realized you were wrong after you post a reply, just admit it.  

It very well may mean something more. But Time traveling bran is not that something. 

Both are flawed and less than accurate, but makes for good stories 

I am not too sure about that. I seem to remember reading something about seeing a possible future, what may happen.  
look at it this way. If that was possible, There would be no story. Bran could time travel, warn everyone about all the dangers ahead. Save his mom, dad, sisters, brothers and their wolves. Warn people about the others and generally unravel everything that was written

To keep knowledge of the past. The children were always able to see the others coming, and easily remember how to fight them. It wasn't until men came, cut down the face trees and killed off most of the children that the others became a problem. 

Rip currents =/= time travel 

What in the books leads you to think this? 

She very literally does not say any of that crap.  She says she walked the world of men, observed and learned, and then got homesick and returned to the cave. 

We are told that if King Aerys had trusted and listened to his spymaster, he would still be alive. So, there's that.  

getting someone to work with you by teaching them how to harness and hone their powers, but then limiting said power by just saying "you can't do that" makes no sense at all.  Also, Bloodraven is the 3EC.  

True

Except you can't. Bloodraven has the same experience that bran does. He tries to talk to his brother and lover and just like when bran tried, all they heard was wind. 

The book says otherwise but when has anything in the book mattered when it comes to theories here? 

Why would the gods need to learn new info if they can see everything in the past or future? 

All that showed us is that a skinchanger's soul went through several bodies that a skinchanger's soul could. The time travel is your hope. Nothing more. 

Naw, he never leaves the tree, and after the other's defeat he watches his family and everyone he ever loved from their births to their deaths from the comfort of his tree, outliving all of them while waiting for the next last greenseer . 

Not really. He abused his power, he went against his masters teaching and he would rather be an abomination rather than die. We shouldn't trust his rationalizations

There is a history of skinchangers in the stark line in the books.  It is partially genetic.  

 

 

I read threads like this and i feel like I've stumbled accidentally ontp a  different forum, where ppl are discussing a different story. :dunno:

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Brynden serves his own ideologies and he gets it done by sheer ruthlessness. Before it was the Blackfyres and now it’s the white walkers (not sure if he actually said that). I don’t know if he is willing to entrust the task to a little boy even if he has great powers.

 There might be something up his sleeve but I have no idea. Take your pick on a theory, my favorite is he’ll train bran as his replacement then skinchange Hodor and walk out with Dark Sister :P

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A. There are many unattended weirwoods and blood sacrifice has been abandoned in th North for centuries and earlier than that in the South. The weirwoods are surviving just fine. Hence they probably don't depend on blood sacrifice to survive.

B. Bloodraven appears to have been loyal to the legitimate line of house Targaryen and tyrannical and ruthless about it. That is pretty much the sum of what we know for certain about his character. 

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