Why did Jorah push Dany to go to Asshai?

[Here's Looking At You, Kid]

On 11/5/2018 at 4:15 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Do you think he has told all?  There is more to come.

I believe so.  He was reporting on the Targaryens in the hopes of a pardon.  He no longer wants to return to Westeros.  He found redemption in Dany's service.  

[Platypus Rex]

On ‎11‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 6:08 PM, Here's Looking At You, Kid said:

I believe so.  He was reporting on the Targaryens in the hopes of a pardon.  He no longer wants to return to Westeros.  He found redemption in Dany's service.  

I don't think so.  He's got a history, and it is not merely recent.  It goes back to a period shortly after Robert's Rebellion.  And it is connected to Ned Stark.  He has not told us that whole story.

[Bowen Marsh]

On 11/3/2018 at 12:14 PM, Daendrew said:

Why did Jorah push Dany to go to Asshai?

Where else can they run to?  

On 11/3/2018 at 12:14 PM, Daendrew said:

Did GRRM ever talk about that in a SSM?

No

On 11/3/2018 at 12:14 PM, Daendrew said:

Did he think about bringing Dany there in the beginning?

No

[Damsel in Distress]

On 11/3/2018 at 12:14 PM, Daendrew said:

Why did Jorah push Dany to go to Asshai?

Did GRRM ever talk about that in a SSM?

Did he think about bringing Dany there in the beginning?

Awesome!  I love Daenerys Targaryen.  I can discuss her all day long.  

#1 - Jorah suggested many places they could go.  Asshai is only one of them.  I don't think he was overly partial to Asshai.  Below, I quoted one of the most touching exchange in all of the novels.  Enjoy.   

 

Quote

Ser Jorah Mormont drew her aside as the sun was creeping toward its zenith.  "Princess ..." he began.

"Why do you call me that?" Dany challenged him.  "My brother Viserys was your king, was he not?"

"He was, my lady."

"Viserys is dead.  I am his heir, the last blood of House Targaryen.  Whatever was his is mine now."

"My ...queen," Ser Jorah said, going to one knee.  "My sword that was his is yours, Daenerys.  And my heart as well, that never belonged to your brother.  I am only a knight, and I have nothing to offer you but exile, but I beg you, hear me.  Let Khal Drogo go.  You shall not be alone.  I promise you, no man shall take you to Vaes Dothrak unless you wish to go.  You need not join the dosh khaleen.  Come east with me.  Yi Ti, Qarth, the Jade Sea, Asshai by the Shadow.  We will see all the wonders yet unseen, and drink what wines the gods see fit to serve us.  Please, Khaleesi.  I know what you intend.  Do not.  Do not."

 

This is a passage from the last chapter of A Game of Thrones.  

#2 - I do not recall any such from George Martin.  The passage above made clear what Ser Jorah's intentions were.  There is no need for clarification from George Martin.

#3 - Jorah was sworn to King Viserys III.  He would not have planned to take Daenerys anywhere.  She was married to the khal.  It was Drogo's death that forced him to start thinking of escape.

[Wolf's Bane]

Asshai possess an ominous reputation.  Jorah would conclude that the superstitious Dothraki riders will avoid the city.

[Megorova]

It happened in the end of AGOT. At that time GRRM has planned, that ASOIAF will be a trilogy, with a five year time skip in it (probably, for Rhaego to grow up a bit). So Jorah was pushing Dany to go to Asshai, because that's where Quaithe has taken Rhaego, after Mirri Maz Duur faked his death. In the end of his coma-dream, Bran saw dragons near Asshai. So in original version of AGOT (the trilogy with a time skip), after death of Drogo, Dany was supposed to go to Asshai, reunite there with her son, raise there him and her three dragons, and only then, after 5 years skip, to go to conquer Slavers Bay and Dothraki. Though, some time after GRRM has published AGOT, he has added a Blackfyre plotline into ASOIAF. Using this newest plotline, adding fAgon, JonCon, Golden Company, etc, GRRM was able to expand the series, and made up Slavers Bay plot, to get Dany busy with something useful (freeing slaves, gaining some political experience, rallying supporters, and gathering loyal people), instead of idly spending 5 years of her time, on raising her child in Asshai.

[Rondo]

21 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Awesome!  I love Daenerys Targaryen.  I can discuss her all day long.  

#1 - Jorah suggested many places they could go.  Asshai is only one of them.  I don't think he was overly partial to Asshai.  Below, I quoted one of the most touching exchange in all of the novels.  Enjoy.   

 

This is a passage from the last chapter of A Game of Thrones.  

#2 - I do not recall any such from George Martin.  The passage above made clear what Ser Jorah's intentions were.  There is no need for clarification from George Martin.

#3 - Jorah was sworn to King Viserys III.  He would not have planned to take Daenerys anywhere.  She was married to the khal.  It was Drogo's death that forced him to start thinking of escape.

I agree with #1.  Jorah was grasping to find a place where the long arm of the khalasars can't reach them.  

[Rondo]

1 hour ago, Megorova said:

It happened in the end of AGOT. At that time GRRM has planned, that ASOIAF will be a trilogy, with a five year time skip in it (probably, for Rhaego to grow up a bit). So Jorah was pushing Dany to go to Asshai, because that's where Quaithe has taken Rhaego, after Mirri Maz Duur faked his death. In the end of his coma-dream, Bran saw dragons near Asshai. So in original version of AGOT (the trilogy with a time skip), after death of Drogo, Dany was supposed to go to Asshai, reunite there with her son, raise there him and her three dragons, and only then, after 5 years skip, to go to conquer Slavers Bay and Dothraki. Though, some time after GRRM has published AGOT, he has added a Blackfyre plotline into ASOIAF. Using this newest plotline, adding fAgon, JonCon, Golden Company, etc, GRRM was able to expand the series, and made up Slavers Bay plot, to get Dany busy with something useful (freeing slaves, gaining some political experience, rallying supporters, and gathering loyal people), instead of idly spending 5 years of her time, on raising her child in Asshai.

We never saw Rhaego's body.  This is theoretically possible but it is not a theory that makes sense to me.   Rhaego's blood was necessary to resurrect the dragons.  It took the blood of three kings.  King Viserys, Prince/Khal Rhaego, and Khal Drogo.  Perfect exchange for three dragons.  

[Darth Sidious]

23 hours ago, Damsel in Distress said:

Awesome!  I love Daenerys Targaryen.  I can discuss her all day long.  

#1 - Jorah suggested many places they could go.  Asshai is only one of them.  I don't think he was overly partial to Asshai.  Below, I quoted one of the most touching exchange in all of the novels.  Enjoy.   

 

This is a passage from the last chapter of A Game of Thrones.  

#2 - I do not recall any such from George Martin.  The passage above made clear what Ser Jorah's intentions were.  There is no need for clarification from George Martin.

#3 - Jorah was sworn to King Viserys III.  He would not have planned to take Daenerys anywhere.  She was married to the khal.  It was Drogo's death that forced him to start thinking of escape.

 

1 hour ago, Tour De Force said:

I agree with #1.  Jorah was grasping to find a place where the long arm of the khalasars can't reach them.  

Asshai is the best destination because it is on the edge of western Essos.  

[Megorova]

15 hours ago, Tour De Force said:

We never saw Rhaego's body.  This is theoretically possible but it is not a theory that makes sense to me.   Rhaego's blood was necessary to resurrect the dragons.  It took the blood of three kings.  King Viserys, Prince/Khal Rhaego, and Khal Drogo.  Perfect exchange for three dragons.  

That bolded part is a pure speculation. In the ritual of hatching dragon eggs, Viserys' blood wasn't involved. Neither was Rhaego's.

Let's go thru known facts of that ritual:

Drogon - his egg was placed on funeral pyre first out of three, and it hatched the last out of three. Khal Drogo died first out of three blood sacrifices, so his life force was the weakest out of three sacrifices. Drogo's life has payed for Drogon.

Rhaegel - his egg was placed second, and hatched also second. Next one who has died, after Dany has smothered Drogo with a pilllow, was a stallion - "Rakharo chose a stallion from the small herd that remained to them; he was not the equal of Khal Drogo's red, but few horses were. In the center of the square, Aggo fed him a withered apple and dropped him in an instant with an axe blow between the eyes. ... Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find." This horse's body burned on the pyre, together with Khal Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur.

Viseryon - his egg was placed the last out of three, but it hatched first out of three. Because the sacrifice with which was "bought" Viseryon's life, was the freshest out of three sacrifices - Mirri Maz Duur was burning, while she was still alive.

1. Drogon - Drogo, 2. Rhaegel - the stallion, 3. Viseryon - Mirri.

Three bodies were burning on that funeral pyre, and out of that pyre hatched three dragons. Three lives for three dragons. Math is a science. People can speculate whatever they want (I myself often do that about ASOIAF), but you can't argue against math. Whether that theory makes sense to you, or not, nevertheless 3 is still = 3. With addition of Viserys and Rhaego, to those three bodies on the pyre, there are 5 of them, and 5 doesn't = 3. Five lives payed for three dragons?  No!  And it's illogical to exclude those two, that were present there during the ritual (Mirri, and that stallion, that burned on the funeral pyre), but include into the ritual two people (Viserys and Rhaego), that weren't there.

[The Commentator]

23 hours ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Asshai possess an ominous reputation.  Jorah would conclude that the superstitious Dothraki riders will avoid the city.

Imagine for a minute what life for those two would be like if they had gone to Asshai and sold one of the dragon eggs.  They would be rich and she still has two of the eggs.  Traveling in comfort is not a bad way to spend a life.  This is a much better life than Ser Jorah could ever hope for after his crime in Westeros.   And Daenerys, Daenerys has an adventurous side to her and she might enjoy visiting Asshai, Yi Ti, etc.  

[Three-Fingered Pete]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 9:14 AM, Daendrew said:

Why did Jorah push Dany to go to Asshai?

 

For all of the quality reasons previously stated.

And

Because what happens in Asshai, stays in Asshai.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

On 11/12/2018 at 4:22 PM, Tour De Force said:

We never saw Rhaego's body.  This is theoretically possible but it is not a theory that makes sense to me.   Rhaego's blood was necessary to resurrect the dragons.  It took the blood of three kings.  King Viserys, Prince/Khal Rhaego, and Khal Drogo.  Perfect exchange for three dragons.  

Daenerys saw Rhaego die in her vision.  That is as good a confirmation of a death as you can get with GRRM.

[Megorova]

13 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Daenerys saw Rhaego die in her vision.  That is as good a confirmation of a death as you can get with GRRM.

First of all, in that vision Rhaego was an adult, tall lord. So even if in that vision she has seen his death, still that death will happen many years in the future, after Rhaego will grow up. And second - she saw him being taken by a flame, flame that came out of his mouth and out of his heart - kiss of life/fire kiss of Red Priests, and R'hllor's symbol - burning heart. And in that vision Rhaego was under banner of a fiery stallion/fire horse - combination of symbols of Dothraki - the Stallion that mounts the world, and fire - symbol of R'hllor, so grown up Rhaego is simultaneously Khal of khals and Champion of R'hllor. Melisandre mistakenly thought, that Stannis is Champion of R'hllor, and Azor Ahai. But she was wrong, because there are three people, that are combined together are a new Azor Ahai, or the Prince that was promised, that's Dany/The Mother, Rhaego/The Son, and Jon/The Holy Ghost, like The Holy Trinity in Christianity or Catholicism (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) - Dany, the Mother of Dragons, is the Princess that was promised; Rhaego, Khal of khals, is the Stallion that mounts the world; and Jon is Azor Ahai and wielder of Lightbringer; and all three of them together are three heads of the dragon.

Rhaego is alive. His kidnapping was the treason for blood, predicted by the Undying. And what Dany saw in that vision was metaphorical, that was not a scene of Rhaego's death.

But even if that was a scene of his death - just think about it! - in that vision he was a MAN, not a newborn child. Thus he lived, for years, he grew up, and only then he died (if that indeed was a scene of his death, and not something else, like, for example, him being taken into R'hllor's service, i.e. him becoming a Red Priest - that fire from his mouth - fire kiss of Red Priests).

[Rufus Snow]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Rhaego was under banner of a fiery stallion/fire horse - combination of symbols of Dothraki - the Stallion that mounts the world, and fire - symbol of R'hllor, so grown up Rhaego is simultaneously Khal of khals and Champion of R'hllor

That's one possible reading, but I see this vision in a different light.

Firstly, that Dany 'sees' Rhaego grown up is simply a representation of his 'prophetic' or mythic role as the Stallion Who Mounts the World. It is the myth which dies with him. The Stallion Who Mounts the World would always have been a grown man, because babies lead no khalasars. I think this is also why Mirri says the baby was dead 'for years' - it is all that life which Rhaego would have lived before becoming his mythic self being rolled back into the womb to create a corpse that is full of grave worms and corruption.

You might see the flaming stallion as a Dothraki/R'hllorist chimera, but there has been no overt R'hllorist influence on Dany yet. To me this symbol is more prosaic: Rhaego is the son of a Dothraki khal - what do dead Dothraki ride to the stars? A flaming stallion. The flaming stallion clearly symbolises a Dothraki funeral ride, IMHO.

The other vision Dany has of Rhaego as a grown/mythic man, was at the House of the Undying, where she was told she would see things that 'have been, will be or never come to pass'. Every other element in those visions (IIRC, long time since I checked....) can be traced to real events. Rhaego as a grown man is the only one that can satisfy the requirement for something that 'will not come to pass'. To my mind, Rhaego is dead.

[The Commentator]

I am not sure what else Jorah could be hiding.  He gave disclosure and admitted his guilt.  He was spying on Viserys and Daenerys in exchange for a pardon.  

[Platypus Rex]

8 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

I am not sure what else Jorah could be hiding.  He gave disclosure and admitted his guilt.  He was spying on Viserys and Daenerys in exchange for a pardon.  

In exchange for a pardon from the Throne.  Not a pardon from Ned.  There was never any prospect of a pardon from Ned.

Maybe, he did not merely sell smugglers into slavery.  Maybe, there was also this little girl, valued by Essos slavers because of her violet eyes and golden blonde hair.  Maybe he got a real good price for her.  Only Ned, for some mysterious reason, took it REAL personally. 

[Megorova]

18 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

You might see the flaming stallion as a Dothraki/R'hllorist chimera, but there has been no overt R'hllorist influence on Dany yet. To me this symbol is more prosaic: Rhaego is the son of a Dothraki khal - what do dead Dothraki ride to the stars? A flaming stallion. The flaming stallion clearly symbolises a Dothraki funeral ride, IMHO.

No, that banner symbolizes Rhaego - half-Valyrian (half-"fire") and half-Dothraki (half-"horse") - Dany/fire + Drogo/horse = Rhaego/fiery stallion. So it doesn't matter whether Dany was in any way influenced by followers of R'hllor, or not, because she herself is a carrier of "dragon blood", so there is "fire" in her, and in her children, including Rhaego. Dany is the Mother of Dragons - Drogon, Rhaegel, Viseryon, and Rhaego is also a "dragon", or "fire made flesh". In the original ASOIAF trilogy, Rhaego was supposed to be one of three heads of the dragon. Though, maybe, with addition of Blackfyres into a new, altered plot, fAegon is going to become one of the "holy trinity" of ASOIAF. But originally it was supposed to be Rhaego. There was supposed to be a 5 years long time skip, so by the end of it, Rhaego was supposed to be over 7 years old (see below).

18 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

The Stallion Who Mounts the World would always have been a grown man, because babies lead no khalasars.

In late 299 Joffrey has turned 13 years old, and died a bit later, on the first day of year 300. The Bleeding Star was seen above King's Landing on the day of Joffrey's 12th birthday, in the end of 298. So Rhaego was born in late 298, last month of that year. Since his birth, at least one and a half years has already passed -> latest events in ADWD are happening in the middle, or even in second half of year 300. By the time Dany will return to Meeren, and gather her people, and prepare for a journey to Westeros, at least another 6 months will pass. And there was supposed to be additional +5 years of time skip. So Rhaego, by the time of Dany's arrival to Westeros, was supposed to be 7+ years old.

And that's old enough to ride a dragon (amongst Targaryens there were 6 and 7 years old dragonriders). So it wouldn't have mattered to Dothraki, that their Khal of khals is still a child. He's a dragonrider, so who cares how old he is? Dany is also a dragonrider, but it's irrelevant for Dothraki, because Dany is not a Dothraki, and before her, there were other dragonriders in Essos. What's important for Dothraki, is that Rhaego is half-Dothraki, so if he is also a dragonrider, managed to mount a dragon, then he is the Stallion that mounts the world, and thus - their leader. And it's completely irrelevant, how old is he. And everyone are born as babies, and then eventually grow up. So even the Stallion is supposed to be a child in the beginning of his life. So this -> "The Stallion Who Mounts the World would always have been a grown man" is

[Lluewhyn]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:22 PM, Tour De Force said:

We never saw Rhaego's body.  This is theoretically possible but it is not a theory that makes sense to me.   Rhaego's blood was necessary to resurrect the dragons. 

Regardless of the dragons, who would have kidnapped Rhaego, and how would they have gotten away with the kid without anyone noticing? The Dothraki wanted nothing to do with the magic or anything related to it. If the kid had been discovered, they would likely have killed it. And there weren't a whole lot of people there besides Daenerys, Jorah, and the Dothraki. So, I'd agree that it doesn't make sense for a variety of reasons.

[Anck Su Namun]

Jorah didn't push Dany.  He was making a suggestion.  I haven't read any comment from Martin about Jorah's advice to Dany.  Jorah doesn't really plan and he could not have planned Drogo's death from sepsis.  Mirri's mud packing had manure and god knows what other nasty things.