Why we Dance to Rhaenyra and Daemon Stark (revised)

[AlaskanSandman]

Why we dance to Rhaenyra and Daemon Stark.  Revised and updated

 

 

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Transcript of Chat with
George R. R. Martin on March 18, 1999

 

If you want to figure out a family's descent, the names are a better clue than the eyes. Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart). Etc. The Valyrian names are fairly distinct are well: The "ae" usage usually suggests a Valyrian in the family tree. The Andal names are . . . well, neither Stark nor Targaryen, if that makes sense. Lannister. Arryn. Tyrell. Etc. Of course, you also need to remember that there have been hundreds and in some cases thousands of years of interbreeding, so hardly anyone is pure Andal or First Man.

https://archive.is/St3S6#selection-3713.1-3717.252

 

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           A Game of Thrones       694[11] 73        292,727[12]     33h 53m          August 1996[11]     

A Clash of Kings          768[13]            70        318,903[14]     37h 17m          February 1999[13]

 

 So early on, GRRM had laid clues we were meant to catch on to regarding naming in ASOIAF. That of the Ae usage.  Straight from the first book, we have an interesting figure.

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A Game of Thrones - Tyrion III

Mormont frowned through his thick grey beard. "Snow? Oh, the Stark bastard. I think not. The young ones need to forget the lives they left behind them, the brothers and mothers and all that. A visit home would only stir up feelings best left alone. I know these things. My own blood kin … my sister Maege rules Bear Island now, since my son's dishonor. I have nieces I have never seen." He took a swallow. "Besides, Jon Snow is only a boy. You shall have three strong swords, to keep you safe."

A Game of Thrones - Bran VI

Robb seemed half a stranger to Bran now, transformed, a lord in truth, though he had not yet seen his sixteenth name day. Even their father's bannermen seemed to sense it. Many tried to test him, each in his own way. Roose Bolton and Robett Glover both demanded the honor of battle command, the first brusquely, the second with a smile and a jest. Stout, grey-haired Maege Mormont, dressed in mail like a man, told Robb bluntly that he was young enough to be her grandson, and had no business giving her commands … but as it happened, she had a granddaughter she would be willing to have him marry.

 A Game of Thrones - Catelyn X

Here was her son on his stallion, glancing back at her one last time and lifting his sword in salute.

Here was the call of Maege Mormont's warhorn, a long low blast that rolled down the valley from the east, to tell them that the last of Jaime's riders had entered the trap.

 A Game of Thrones - Jon IX

The Old Bear sighed. "You are not the only one touched by this war. Like as not, my sister is marching in your brother's host, her and those daughters of hers, dressed in men's mail. Maege is a hoary old snark, stubborn, short-tempered, and willful. Truth be told, I can hardly stand to be around the wretched woman, but that does not mean my love for her is any less than the love you bear your half sisters." Frowning, Mormont took his last egg and squeezed it in his fist until the shell crunched. "Or perhaps it does. Be that as it may, I'd still grieve if she were slain, yet you don't see me running off. I said the words, just as you did. My place is here … where is yours, boy?"

A Game of Thrones - Catelyn XI

"I'll have peace on those terms," Lord Karstark said. "They can keep their red castle and their iron chair as well." He eased his longsword from its scabbard. "The King in the North!" he said, kneeling beside the Greatjon.

Maege Mormont stood. "The King of Winter!" she declared, and laid her spiked mace beside the swords. And the river lords were rising too, Blackwood and Bracken and Mallister, houses who had never been ruled from Winterfell, yet Catelyn watched them rise and draw their blades, bending their knees and shouting the old words that had not been heard in the realm for more than three hundred years, since Aegon the Dragon had come to make the Seven Kingdoms one … yet now were heard again, ringing from the timbers of her father's hall:

 

Maege Mormont, who has a daughter of interest showing where maybe this Valyrian comes from

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon VII

Stannis had taken Deepwood Motte, and the mountain clans had joined him. Flint, Norrey, Wull, Liddle, all.

And we had other help, unexpected but most welcome, from a daughter of Bear Island. Alysane Mormont, whose men name her the She-Bear, hid fighters inside a gaggle of fishing sloops and took the ironmen unawares where they lay off the strand. Greyjoy's longships are burned or taken, her crews slain or surrendered. The captains, knights, notable warriors, and others of high birth we shall ransom or make other use of, the rest I mean to hang …

 Alysane? Alysanne? Good Queen Alysanne? Could Queen Alysanne be responsible? I think so.

 

The Bear and the Maiden Fair

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A Storm of Swords - Bran III

The Reeds exchanged a look. "How do you know that?" asked Jojen. "Have you been here before, my prince?"

"No. Old Nan told me. The holdfast has a golden crown, see?" He pointed across the lake. You could see patches of flaking gold paint up around the crenellations. "Queen Alysanne slept there, so they painted the merlons gold in her honor."

"A causeway?" Jojen studied the lake. "You are certain?"

 

A Storm of Swords - Jon V

Across the lake, the tower was black again, a dim shape dimly seen. "A queen lived there?" asked Ygritte.

"A queen stayed there for a night." Old Nan had told him the story, but Maester Luwin had confirmed most of it. "Alysanne, the wife of King Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He's called the Old King because he reigned so long, but he was young when he first came to the Iron Throne. In those days, it was his wont to travel all over the realm. When he came to Winterfell, he brought his queen, six dragons, and half his court. The king had matters to discuss with his Warden of the North, and Alysanne grew bored, so she mounted her dragon Silverwing and flew north to see the Wall. This village was one of the places where she stopped. Afterward the smallfolk painted the top of their holdfast to look like the golden crown she'd worn when she spent the night among them."

"I have never seen a dragon."

 

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Birth crowning, which is when your baby's head starts to emerge bit by bit during each contraction, occurs during the second stage of labor.

 So Crowning is a birthing term used to describe when the child’s head begins to show. So we should have Alysanne hooking up with a Mormont some how right?

 

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A FIRE & BLOOD Excerpt just for YOU!

SEPTEMBER 27, 2018

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/

Lord Alaric had lost his wife three years earlier. When the queen expressed regret that she had never had the pleasure of meeting Lady Stark, the northman said, “She was a Mormont of Bear Isle, and no lady by your lights, but she took an axe to a pack of wolves when she was twelve, killed two of them, and sewed a cloak from their skins. She gave me two strong sons as well, and a daughter as sweet to look upon as any of your southron ladies.”

When Her Grace suggested that she would be pleased to help arrange marriages for his sons to the daughters of great southern lords, Lord Stark refused brusquely. “We keep the old gods in the North,” he told the queen. “When my boys take a wife, they will wed before a heart tree, not in some southron sept.”

 

Alysanne Targaryen did not yield easily, however. The lords of the south honored the old gods as well as the new, she told Lord Alaric; most every castle that she knew had a godswood as well as a sept. And there were still certain houses that had never accepted the Seven, no more than the northmen had, the Blackwoods in the riverlands chief amongst them, and mayhaps as many as a dozen more. Even a lord as stern and flinty as Alaric Stark found himself helpless before Queen Alysanne’s stubborn charm. He allowed that he would think on what she said, and raise the matter with his sons.

 

The longer the queen stayed, the more Lord Alaric warmed to her, and in time Alysanne came to realize that not everything that was said of him was true. He was careful with his coin, but not niggardly; he was not humorless at all, though his humor had an edge to it, sharp as a knife; his sons and daughter and the people of Winterfell seemed to love him well enough. Once the initial frost had thawed, his lordship took the queen hunting after elk and wild boar in the wolfswood, showed her the bones of a giant, and allowed her to rummage as she pleased through his modest castle library. He even deigned to approach Silverwing, though warily. The women of Winterfell were taken by the queen’s charms as well, once they grew to know her; Her Grace became particularly close with Lord Alaric’s daughter, Alarra. When the rest of the queen’s party finally turned up at the castle gates, after struggling through trackless bogs and summer snows, the meat and mead flowed freely, despite the king’s absence.

 

Things were not going as well at King’s Landing, meanwhile. The peace talks dragged on far longer than anticipated, for the acrimony between the two Free Cities ran deeper than Jaehaerys had known. When His Grace attempted to strike a balance, both sides accused him of favoring the other. Whilst the Prince and the Archon dickered, fights began to break out between their men across the city, in inns, brothels, and wine sinks. A Pentoshi guardsman was set upon and killed, and three nights later the Archon’s own galley was set afire where she was docked. The king’s departure was delayed and delayed again.

 

In the North, Queen Alysanne grew restless with waiting, and decided to take her leave of Winterfell for a time and visit the men of the Night’s Watch at Castle Black. The distance was not negligible, even flying; Her Grace landed at the Last Hearth and several smaller keeps and holdfasts on her way, to the surprise and delight of their lords, whilst a portion of her tail scrambled after her (the rest remained at Winterfell).

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Jaehaerys I

For forty-six years, the Old King and Good Queen Alysanne were wed, and for the most part it was a happy marriage, with children and grandchildren aplenty.

Two estrangements are recorded, but they did not last more than a year or two before the pair resumed their customary friendship. The Second Quarrel, however, is of note, as it was due to Jaehaerys's decision in 92 AC to pass over his granddaughter Rhaenys—the daughter of his deceased eldest son and heir, Prince Aemon—in favor of bestowing Dragonstone and the place of heir apparent on his next eldest son, Baelon the Brave. Alysanne saw no reason why a man should be favored over a woman...and if Jaehaerys thought women of less use, then he would have no need of her. They reconciled in time, but the Old King outlived his beloved queen, and in his last years it was said that the grief of their parting hung over his court like a pall.

 Lord Alleric’s sons who apparently are not at Winterfell at the time. Sons of a Mormont. With Queen Alysanne going North to Queen’s Crown.

 

One possible child from this union, is Gael.

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13^th child-  PRINCESS GAEL (called the Winter Child)



---

Simple-minded but sweet, Gael was most beloved of the queen. She disappeared from court in 99 AC, allegedly dying of a summer fever, but in fact she had drowned herself in the Blackwater after having been seduced and abandoned by a traveling singer, leaving her with nothing but a growing belly.

*In her grief, Alysanne followed her to the grave less than a year afterwards.

Gael Targaryen Born In or between 62 AC and 83 AC  

For Gael to have a child she would have to be at least 13. So her child was born between 75ac and 96ac. So there are only a couple possible people born in that time.

 

As Tormund kept his sons by Maege and Maege seems to have kept the daughters, we may have the same situation. In which the female keeps the daughters and the male keeps the sons. A tradition Craster too seems to share.

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A FIRE & BLOOD Excerpt just for YOU!

SEPTEMBER 27, 2018

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2018/09/27/a-fire-blood-excerpt-just-for-you/

A few days later, the queen convened her women’s court in Lord Manderly’s own hall, a thing hitherto unheard of in the North, and more than two hundred women and girls gathered to share their thoughts, concerns, and grievances with Her Grace.

 Perhaps Jaehaerys denied Rhaenys as punishment to Alysanne who was pro women rights.

 

But who could Gael’s missing child be? What could have happened to this mysterious child and why would they disappear?

 

I believe it’s Daemon Targaryen. Hidden as the younger brother of Viserys, raised by Alyssa Targaryen and Baelon to hide the Queens shame.

Contested against by the Citadel even though by decree, Daemon should inherit instead of Rhaenyra based off council of 92ac and 101ac.

Supports Rhaenyra instead and eventually marries her. 

On top of that, Gael is the 13^th child (Links of 13 are meant to catch our eyes), while Daemon carves 13 into the weirwood at Harrenhal.

So I believe we are meant to pay attention to the Rogue Prince and his trials.

 

The Falcon and the Wolf

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Vale: House Arryn

With the unification of the realm and the establishment of the boy Ronnel Arryn (the King Who Flew) as the first Lord of the Eyrie, there were new opportunities for the house. It was no great surprise when Queen Rhaenys Targaryen arranged the betrothal of young Ronnel to the daughter of Torrhen Stark, for that was but one of the many such marriages she made in the name of peace. Sadly, Lord Ronnel later died a violent death at the hands of his brother Jonos the Kinslayer, but the Arryn line continued through a kinsman and has remained deeply involved in many of the great matters of the Seven Kingdoms.

The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Aenys I

Lord Royce of Runestone gathered forces that swept away the rebels under Jonos Arryn, penning him and his followers in the Eyrie—although this led directly to the murder of the imprisoned Lord Ronnel, when Jonos sent his brother flying out the Moon Door to his death. Yet the Eyrie proved no safe haven when Prince Maegor came calling on the back of Balerion, the Black Dread—the dragon that he had always desired and could finally claim following his father's death. Jonos and his followers all died by the noose, at Maegor's hand.

 

Aenys I Targaryen

Reign

37 AC - 42 AC

 Ronnel married for about 27 years into reign of Aenys, and only Ronnel was said to have been murdered, not his wife or any children, which, after near 30 years, they would have children.

 

Hubert Arryn took over as Lord and had six sons. One of which took over as Lord.

 

Now, theoretically, if Ronnel had a daughter that couldn’t rule, and if Huberts son was unmarried at the time, then a marriage between the two would be most logical to consolidate rule and power.

 

This would explain where Lord Rodrik came from. As Hubert was installed by Maegor during reign of Aenys into Maegors reign. Rodrik pops up marrying the daughter of Jaehaerys, Daela. Rodrik being of an age with Daela likely means that Rodriks father was Lord of the Eyrie during the early reign of Jaehaerys.

 

From here we know that Rodrik and Daela have Aemma Arryn who weds Viserys I, child of Baelon and Alyssa, the children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne.

 

Viserys I and Aemma Arryn have one child, Rhaenyra Targaryen.

 

Rhaenyra and Daemon would eventually wed and have two children, Aegon III the Dragon Bane, and Viserys II.

Both Rhaenyra and Daemon making up the side of the Blacks during the Dance of the Dragons vs Aegon II, child of Viserys I and Alicent Hightower.

 

So the only hidden births are Gael and Daemon. Gael fathered by someone other than Jaehaerys, which shouldn’t be too hard to hide. The other being Daemon, child of Gael hidden among the children of Baelon and Alyssa as younger brother to Viserys I. Wouldn’t someone have witnessed this birth? Well, no.

 

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AlaskanSandman

Replied: September 15

 

Do the Targaryen Royal family have people in attendance for royal births to verify that the child is indeed of that person, as we do in the real world? Other than just the person who assisted with the birthing (Which i imagine would be the Maester and Septa.) Or is it really a privately held affair? or just the Maester and Septa trusted at their word? Real world there could be up to 70 people watching.

 

Ran

Replied: September 15

 

I think that was a later thing, especially the French court. GRRM seems to suppose little pomp and ceremony.

 

AlaskanSandman

Replied: September 15

 

Good to know, thank you  

From @Ran

(I had asked in regards to baby Aegon fyi.)

 So again, I believe that the Starks have bred into House Stark, somehow possibly disrupting their link to dragons. As the children of Daemon and Rhaenyra are the end of the Dragons. One could even say, Rhaenyra and Daemon were the end of the dragons. Only through the Greens could they have saved the dragons it would appear.

 

This is as far as I can see it for now. Im sure there is more to this picture.

 

House Mormont and the Starks for instance appear to have deeper connections with Valyria at least tracing back to Bael the Bard said to have been a couple hundred years after the Horned Lord who was either in 17ooBc or 700Bc abouts. Meaning Bael was in either 1300Bc or 300Bc.

300Bc would place Bael near or around Hardhome, Valyria taking Dragonstone, and Brandon the Burner and possibly Harlon Stark.

I hope you’ve enjoyed some of this if you havn’t seen any of it before. If you have, I hope you enjoy the corrections from my previous attempt and hope we all can scratch at this mystery together to figure out what it all means.

 

Edit- Bael comes from ACOK which was released in 1999 when GRRM gave the interview at top regarding Ae usage in names.

[The Wondering Wolf]

Alaric's sons are mentioned to have been at Winterfell when Alysanne arrived in 58 AC.

58 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

For Gael to have a child she would have to be at least 13. So her child was born between 75ac and 96ac. So there are only a couple possible people born in that time.

Why 96 AC? To me the text implies her suicide in 99 AC was a direct result of her pregnancy. It does not seem to make sense that Gael gave birth to Daemon in 81 AC and because of that killed herself 18 years later.

[AlaskanSandman]

14 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Alaric's sons are mentioned to have been at Winterfell when Alysanne arrived in 58 AC.

Why 96 AC? To me the text implies her suicide in 99 AC was a direct result of her pregnancy. It does not seem to make sense that Gael gave birth to Daemon in 81 AC and because of that killed herself 18 years later.

Huh? The reasons for her death truly unknown, the only thing for sure was she was found dead, drowned in the Blackwater. That could also be murder. Its also not stated when the singer met her, or when she got pregnant. So the times i listed are just based on her possible birth date and being fertile. Meaning her child could not have been before those times. 

Plus where does it say Alleric's sons are there with them? 

Edit- Read your response wrong. First its implied she disappeared from court, then that she died of a summer fever, then that she drowned herself in the Blackwater over being knocked up and left. So the only thing for sure, is she died in 99ac and possibly had a child.

[The Wondering Wolf]

It is in the excerpt:

The warmth of her reception at White Harbor was not to be duplicated at the ancient seat of the Kings in the North, where Alaric Stark and his sons alone emerged to greet her when her dragon landed before his castle gates. 

Ok, I am just trying to follow your thoughts. Daemon was born in 81 AC. And according to your theory, he was the child of Gael and a singer. Gael died in 99 AC and her death is tied to the singer getting her pregnant leaving her. I just do not see how that fits together, so maybe you could explain the order of events. 

[AlaskanSandman]

17 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Alaric's sons are mentioned to have been at Winterfell when Alysanne arrived in 58 AC.

Why 96 AC? To me the text implies her suicide in 99 AC was a direct result of her pregnancy. It does not seem to make sense that Gael gave birth to Daemon in 81 AC and because of that killed herself 18 years later.

Alysanne is trying to make marriages for Allerics son's though, so there is the possibility that one of Allerics sons got with Gael. Though i have no info about Gael being in the North as an adult near Queen's Crown. Just Alysanne.

[AlaskanSandman]

Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

It is in the excerpt:

The warmth of her reception at White Harbor was not to be duplicated at the ancient seat of the Kings in the North, where Alaric Stark and his sons alone emerged to greet her when her dragon landed before his castle gates. 

Ok, I am just trying to follow your thoughts. Daemon was born in 81 AC. And according to your theory, he was the child of Gael and a singer. Gael died in 99 AC and her death is tied to the singer getting her pregnant leaving her. I just do not see how that fits together, so maybe you could explain the order of events. 

Ok i missed that haha but still doesn't change much. 

Covered in comment above already. 3 different versions of her are given. She disappeared, she died of summer fever, and she was knocked up by traveling singer. Again, the only thing for sure is that she died mysteriously and possibly had a child. 

You can assume the last version though but there is no reason imo to believe that over the other two accounts. Instead it just adds more mystery. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

I am talking about your theory that the child she was pregnant with when she disappeared was Daemon. But Daemon was born 18 years earlier, so I do not understand how this should have worked.

[AlaskanSandman]

9 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I am talking about your theory that the child she was pregnant with when she disappeared was Daemon. But Daemon was born 18 years earlier, so I do not understand how this should have worked.

Ive explained it a couple times now. 

You just keep linking her death to killing herself over the singer knocking her up. Her death being in 99ac and your following the last listed cause of her death fact when we do not know that. All we know is that she died and possibly had a child. She either died of fever, drowned her self, or some one else drowned her. 

Like wise due to this discrepancy, there is no reason to trust that the singer knocked her up at that time and she killed her self over it. She was born as early possibly as 62ac making her 37 at her death, or in 83ac, making her 16 at her death. Leaving more than enough time for her to have had Daemon in 81ac. As if she was born in 62 ac, she would be 13 by 75ac. Leaving 6 years of fertile birthing time to have Daemon. 

Again, this would also explain the Citadel opposing Daemon who should rightfully be king after Viserys I. Council of 92ac and 101ac settled this matter. Viserys I is passing over his supposed brother for his only child, his daughter. So he is either really pro female rights, which is possible. Or he is denying Daemon the throne. 

Daemon being likened to Maegor the cruel is baseless so is accusations that he was power hungry, since he never once tried to take the throne and even supported Viserys I child. Even though he should be Heir and feel that way as he should be true born. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

If we put aside the singer scenario, there is nothing left to assume Gael was pregnant at all.

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If we put aside the singer scenario, there is nothing left to assume Gael was pregnant at all.

This is true. Though it doesn't mean the version we are being given is fully accurate either. 

Eddard is listed as having been power hungry and attempting to usurp the throne against the true born son of Robert Baratheon, leading to him being beheaded. So history according to the Maesters shouldn't be held as gospel, just a rough guideline. 

[Lord Varys]

@AlaskanSandman

What happened to your good old Bael-Jaehaerys conspiracy theory? Is that gone now, just with the excerpt? FaB might kill or confirm this theory of yours, but even I could still work around and twiddle to press the Bael thing in-between Alysanne's visit and the later years of Jaehaerys/Alysanne.

And if Alyssa and Baelon weren't Daemon's parents, who is to say your parents are actually your parents? I mean, how do you know that? Couldn't it be that your aunt is actually your mother and your father some guy with no connections to you?

All important questions, don't you think?

And yes, this is irony I think it is well justified in the context of this thread...

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

@AlaskanSandman

What happened to your good old Bael-Jaehaerys conspiracy theory? Is that gone now, just with the excerpt? FaB might kill or confirm this theory of yours, but even I could still work around and twiddle to press the Bael thing in-between Alysanne's visit and the later years of Jaehaerys/Alysanne.

And if Alyssa and Baelon weren't Daemon's parents, who is to say your parents are actually your parents? I mean, how do you know that? Couldn't it be that your aunt is actually your mother and your father some guy with no connections to you?

All important questions, don't you think?

And yes, this is irony I think it is well justified in the context of this thread...

No before the Blood and Fire release, I found and posted threads talking about it and dealing with Bael's dating

 

Spoiler

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

"Wildlings have invaded the realm before." Jon had heard the tales from Old Nan and Maester Luwin both, back at Winterfell. "Raymun Redbeard led them south in the time of my grandfather's grandfather, and before him there was a king named Bael the Bard."

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side

Raymund Red Beard, and Before him, Bael the Bard.

To which Qorhin agrees, and responds by finishing the list for us.

"and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun"

So the order of Kings Beyond the Wall working back wards goes

Mance Rayder

Raymund Red Beard

Bael the Bard

The Horned Lord

Gendel and Gorne

Joramun.

Now we can date many of these to rough time frames as well 

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A Storm of Swords - Jon III

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

 

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - The Wall and Beyond: The Wildlings

The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

The Horned Lord would follow them, a thousand years after (or perhaps two). His name is lost to history, but he was said to have used sorcery to pass the Wall. After him, centuries later, came Bael the Bard, 

 

So aside from Jon and Qorhin discussing it, we have the Maesters confirming the order for us, while providing a date for the Horned Lord.

 

We know Mance is in 300Ac  and we know that Raymund Red Beard was in 226Ac.

 

So thus we can determine the list as such.

 

Mance Rayder                   - 300Ac

 

Raymund Red Beard         - 226 Ac

 

Bael the Bard                     - Some time after Andals but before Targaryens? 13-1400BC or 500-400Bc?

 

And Long before them.

 

The Horned Lord               - 1700Bc or 700 Bc (only centuries before Bael)

 

Gendle and Gorne           - 2700Bc

 

And In Ancient Days.

 

Joramun                            - Unknown.

 

 

As you can see though, aside from the tale of Ygritte, we have confirmation of the Order of the Kings Beyond the Wall from both Jon, Qorhin, and a Maester. 

 

 

So i already have worked out and established when Bael should properly fit in. 

 

 

[The Wondering Wolf]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What happened to your good old Bael-Jaehaerys conspiracy theory? Is that gone now, just with the excerpt?

It died when Ran randomly stated that Bael was a pre-Targaryen thing.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, The Wondering Wolf said:

It died when Ran randomly stated that Bael was a pre-Targaryen thing.

I know, I was in the thread. But he didn't seem to care about that then. And going against established facts seems to be more fun than actually throwing out random theories ;-).

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And if Alyssa and Baelon weren't Daemon's parents, who is to say your parents are actually your parents? I mean, how do you know that? Couldn't it be that your aunt is actually your mother and your father some guy with no connections to you?

All important questions, don't you think?

And yes, this is irony I think it is well justified in the context of this thread...

And no, not really but people on here are often rude cause they think they are funny. Shrugs. I already covered births being witnessed with quote from Ran. So no, there is no one to contest Baelon, Alyssa or Alysanne and Gael should this have happened. 

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

It died when Ran randomly stated that Bael was a pre-Targaryen thing.

 

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

I know, I was in the thread. But he didn't seem to care about that then. And going against established facts seems to be more fun than actually throwing out random theories ;-).

And neither of your snark proves your wit or logic. Big deal, i was wrong in one clue where many havn't caught a thing. Bael i have since backed to a different time pertaining to other important event's  (Hardhome). 

Also your snark doesn't negate the quote from GRRM in 99 about names and ae and the only real clues in 99 were Maege, Maesters, and Bael. 

[The Wondering Wolf]

You argued for the battle involving Jaehaerys beyond the Wall and were proven wrong, you argued for Bael living during the reign of Jaehaerys and were proven wrong, and now you argue for Daemon being the child of Gael without a single hard clue. And it will be the same. Not because I am so clever but because you are going against established facts. You are free to do so, but this might be the reason for your rather low hit rate. And at least in my opinion it is not rude to point that out.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

You argued for the battle involving Jaehaerys beyond the Wall and were proven wrong, you argued for Bael living during the reign of Jaehaerys and were proven wrong, and now you argue for Daemon being the child of Gael without a single hard clue. And it will be the same. Not because I am so clever but because you are going against established facts. You are free to do so, but this might be the reason for your rather low hit rate.

Lmao so personal with your attack lol 

The battle was mentioned in Twoiaf so that would count as a clue till Ran was curious enough to ask Grrm him self who countered it. So must have been interesting enough for Ran to ask about. 

Bael also had clues that possibly led there, but only because i missed the important clues in ACOK and Twoiaf dating him to earlier than Jaehaerys. 

Your sad attempt to rip at my theory based on a couple missed clues previously is funny. It also still doesn't negate anything. I have since resolved when Bael was and who Alysanne was more likely to have hooked up with. Your attempts also still don't negate GRRM clearly stating clues in Ae in 1999 when only AGOT and ACOK where out.

You can ignore Maege and the clues all you want. If all your going to do is be rude though then i will just simply deal with that accordingly and not respond anymore or see you rude comments any more. 

There are polite and reasonable ways to disagree with out being rude. 

And my hit rate??? Har. Your funny. I have so many people who like my threads and share similar interest if not always same views. 

Any lower attempts or are we done here?

[AlaskanSandman]

23 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

You argued for the battle involving Jaehaerys beyond the Wall and were proven wrong, you argued for Bael living during the reign of Jaehaerys and were proven wrong, and now you argue for Daemon being the child of Gael without a single hard clue. And it will be the same. Not because I am so clever but because you are going against established facts. You are free to do so, but this might be the reason for your rather low hit rate. And at least in my opinion it is not rude to point that out.

Cool story. You've gone past the point of disagreeing and moving on. You've gone so far to try to trash all my threads now in one because you simply disagree so fervently. Trashing my view count and stuff despite many of my threads having lots of replies that i can't even keep up with let alone the discussion generated by fellow posters. Because all of this is some how relevant to you disagreeing about Gael? I also assume this then is just how you treat every one on here who post things you dont like or agree with. By excessively trying to berate your point, and when you can't make one, you descend into low jabs based on personal opinion. 

If you want to go discuss something else you are more than welcome to. Your actions speak for them selves though, and any who follow your logic of behavior. Like i said though, cool story bro. 

I respect your disagreement but little else of where you took things. Or for filling my thread with this kind of stuff. Thank you.